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'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school
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Subject: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: Rowan Date: 11 Jul 07 - 12:57 AM News is just now hitting the Oz airwaves that the Sorry Song has been banned at a Queensland school. The national broadcaster ABC markets a lot of items, including a songbook or two and one of these contains a song by Kerry Fletcher and the Coexistence Voices in which the notion of saying sorry for past wrongs done against our Indigenous people forms the main text. To describe the context for nonOz 'catters, there was a recent thread about "Great white father" which went into some detail about dispossession, Terra nullius and the Stolen Generations; sorry, but I can't do blue clickies. The Prime Minister in the current Govt (a coalition between the right-wing "Liberal Party" and the more or less rednecked National Party) has steadfastly refused to even countenance any notion of an apology for such history and so the concept of "Sorry" has a particular meaning in Oz. The pupils at the (State run) primary school were just singing songs out of the song book published by the (Commonwealth Govt run) ABC. A parent took offence that their offspring were being ideologically brainwashed and protested to the school's principal, who promptly banned any singing of the song at the school. An MP in the State parliament (and from one of the Coalition parties above but in Opposition at State level) has supported the principal's stand in the terms ("ideologically brainwashing") I mentioned and is recommending wider banning. Censorship is still with us folks! Unfortunately I can't find a copy of the words or I'd give them a wider circulation on Mudcat. Sadly, and outraged, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: GUEST Date: 11 Jul 07 - 01:09 AM Totally lost about your issue.
Please try to explain again - something about a song, indigenous people, and school. |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: Rowan Date: 11 Jul 07 - 01:18 AM The outrage must be getting to me; I'll try again with the basic summary. The pupils at the (State run) primary school were just singing songs out of the song book published by the (Commonwealth Govt run) ABC. One of the songs was the Sorry Song; see explanation of background above. A parent took offence that their offspring were being ideologically brainwashed and protested to the school's principal, who promptly banned any singing of this song at the school. An MP in the State parliament (and from one of the Coalition parties above but, thankfully, in Opposition at State level) has supported the principal's stand in the terms ("ideologically brainwashing") I mentioned and is recommending wider banning. There is a simialr Sorry Song by Bruce Watson thet will come up on Google but the one by Kerry Fletcher (and I don't have the words) is the one being banned. Hopefully the ABC radio news will have a specific item on it that is available as a podcast. Yours, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: Joe Offer Date: 11 Jul 07 - 02:02 AM I couldn't find the lyrics. The best I could do was this article (click) in the Kiama Independent
-Joe- |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: SharonA Date: 11 Jul 07 - 02:04 AM Here's a link to the recent thread about dispossession, Terra nullius and the Stolen Generations: BS: Great White Father knows best...? Rowan, anyone can do blue clickies nowadays! Didn't used to be so simple, but now Mudcat has that lovely link to the right of the "Submit Message" button that says "Make a link ('blue clicky')". To make a clicky to another Mudcat thread, just follow that link. When the blickifier page opens, paste in the URL of the thread you want to link to (in this case, http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=102703), click the "Create Link" button, copy the resulting HTML, go back to the window where you're typing your message, and paste teh HTML into your message. Sorry to hear that this censorship is happening down there, Rowan. It's terrible when politicians use schools as a battlefield for their issues. In the US there have been similar conflicts over official apologies to the African-American population for the enslavement of their ancestors, in part because of calls for economic reparations from the government (state and/or federal) and/or corporations to be paid to that population. Seems that opposition to the apologies themselves is slowly crumbling, though, and the cries for reparation seem to be quieter for now. Maybe the opposition to a "Sorry" in Oz will deteriorate as well -- I hope so! |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: SharonA Date: 11 Jul 07 - 02:19 AM Here's a bit more lyric, from The Australian website: "If we can say sorry to the people from this land, sing, sing loud, break through the silence, sing across this land. "They Cry, they cry, their children were stolen, they still wonder why." |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: Mo the caller Date: 11 Jul 07 - 02:28 AM So what is, and what isn't brainwashing? Songs are very potent at instilling a message. Is it brainwashing to get children to sing hymns in school? And line up in the Playground on Empire Day, like we did. OTOH if we are not allowed to pass on anything which has a message then we are doing no favours. I suppose we have to teach them to think about what is being fed to them, by the media and by educators. |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: katlaughing Date: 11 Jul 07 - 04:15 AM I did find this: School sorry song will stay - government * * July 11, 2007 THE NSW government has refused to withdraw from state schools a controversial songbook with a song apologising to Aborigines, despite complaints it amounts to political propaganda. Education Minister John Della Bosca said today the ABC songbook, which has been around for more than 40 years, is widely used, but is not part of the NSW Department of Education's curriculum. Hamish East, the father of a pupil at Kiama Public School, on the state's south coast, approached the school principal after learning his son Brian was being taught the Sorry Song by West Australian composer Kerry Fletcher. Mr East said he was not opposed to reconciliation but the sorry issue was "emotive'' and political, and should not be forced down the throat of a child. School principal Jenny Maude reportedly said the children had stopped singing the song after the complaint. Opposition education spokesman Andrew Stoner said it was inappropriate for public schools to push a political agenda on young children. "The irony is that while the premier is happy to push an agenda via political tokenism on to children as young as eight, he has repeatedly refused to take the action needed to address the real crises facing indigenous communities,'' Mr Stoner said. Mr Stoner said Premier Morris Iemma is refusing to provide the necessary funding to implement the recommendations of the Breaking the Silence Report into child sexual abuse in indigenous communities in NSW. Federal Labor leader Kevin Rudd also indicated today he sees the song as inappropriate for schools, saying: "I think we're starting to look at too much political correctness on those sorts of questions. "We've got to watch out for political correctness going mad.'' But Mr Della Bosca said the book contained a variety of songs, including popular hits to those of "bad taste'' and the bizarre. He said the principal acted rightly in withdrawing the song from the school's program following Mr East's complaint. "That book is a separate publication but teachers, quite rightly, use it as something to add some spice of variation to the curriculum,'' Mr Della Bosca said. "The ABC Songbook is part of the school environment. I wouldn't think it was appropriate to withdraw it or put some limitation on it.'' Mr Della Bosca said it was important, particularly in public schools, that a balance of views were offered, but "sometimes people get the balance wrong''. "People aren't taught a black arm band view or a white supremacist view of history in NSW schools,'' he said. |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: Rog Peek Date: 11 Jul 07 - 04:44 AM I do not believe one generation should be expected to 'apologise' for a previous generation's 'crimes'. After all, an apology carries with it culpability. I live in Bristol, England, which was at the centre of the slave trade, and as a city benefited economically from this trade. I disagree with those have the opinion that the inhabitants of Bristol should apologise for this most dreadful trade which was of course, a crime against humanity. On the other hand I believe it is perfectly appropriate that we say we are sorry that it happened, who wouldn't? Of course, we don't know the precise lyrics of the 'Sorry Song' (the two lines quoted do not necessarily convey the context of the song', but I suspect it is saying that 'we' are sorry that the appalling treatment of the Aboriginies took place. Furthermore, I suspect that in a primary school this song would have been sung as part of a wider exploration of the topic, and not in isolation. Even if none of this was the case, and the song was an 'apology', and it was sung out of context, is this the first time that Mr. East's son has come home confused and with questions about something he learned at school? My advice to Mr. East is that in similar situations in the future, he sits sat down with his son and talks to him about such things as justice, empathy, considering different points of view in the context of how people should behave towards each other. This way his son is more likely to grow up with a sense of justice and tolerance rather than a belief that if you don't agree with it, you censor it. |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 11 Jul 07 - 09:05 AM Looks like You Too can have your own song banned - just submit it - details below.... :-) I know HOW to do the clickies - just won't this time.... :-P http://www.abc.net.au/learn/sing/ Welcome to Sing Online - an initiative of ABC Books, Sydney. Sing is the ABC's enormously successful and long-lived primary school music education program. For more than 40 years, Sing has been the leading resource for music educators throughout Australia and New Zealand. The Sing Book, The Sing Activity Book and the Sing recordings make up the annual Sing program. And now we bring you Sing Online - a free resource for children and teachers, music educators and anyone who uses Sing, or would like to! A central feature of this website is the Sing Online Index. This index lists all songs contained in every Sing Book from 1975 to the present, and will be updated every year. You can browse through all the songs or search for particular songs using the Browse Index and Search Index functions. Two comprehensive listings are provided - a Song Title Listing and a First Line Listing. You can also search by keywords such as Composer(s) or Year (of The Sing Book). Many schools and independent teachers hold their own collection of Sing Books dating back many years. This index is of great assistance to people searching through their own collections looking for particular songs. http://www.abc.net.au/learn/sing/about.htm A Brief History of Sing. Sing has been an integral part of the primary school music curriculum in Australia since the late 1950s. The Sing program originally consisted of two radio shows that were broadcast into classrooms across the nation. The shows, 'Let's Hear the Music' (later known as 'Let's Have Music') and 'Singing and Listening' were tailored for lower and upper primary school students respectively. The songs from both shows were combined in the annual release of the Sing book. Many adults can still remember their favourite Sing tunes from when they were at school! The radio shows, 'Let's Hear the Music' and 'Singing and Listening' were produced by the Education Department of the ABC, which was then known as the Australian Broadcasting Commission. Each state and territory had an advisory committee, comprising of music teachers from both state and private schools, who put forward their suggested songs for the year. An ABC producer contributed songs and pooled all the committees' shortlists to make the final selection, which was then transcribed by a musician and recorded at the ABC in Sydney. The radio programs were still being broadcast weekly up until the late 1980s and were then called 'Follow That Song' and 'Sing'. Audio cassettes of the songs became available in the 1970s and these have been joined more recently by the production of CDs. Today, the annual Sing recordings are available on CD (two volumes). The Sing Books have always contained a broad range of songs, and featured around 60 songs per book in the 1970s - although today the books usually have around 50 songs. Historically the songs in the Sing program were always divided into two groups - catering for lower and upper primary. Like the radio show, the books were once divided into 'Let's Hear the Music' (lower primary) and 'Singing and Listening' (upper primary) within the one Sing Book. However in more recent years it has become evident that music teachers use songs from the entire repertoire, no matter what class they are teaching. So today there is no longer the lower and upper primary division in the songs. Over the years, the annual print runs of the Sing book have been enormous, peaking one year in the 1970s with 800,000 copies being printed. At this time the ABC distributed the Sing book, and virtually every primary school student owned their own copy every year. The book's title has undergone many changes. From Let's All Sing, Sing Together to Sing Again, the book has been named simply The Sing Book since 1990. The release year is now always included in the title too. For many years the illustrator of the Sing books was Allan Stomann, who sketched comical and entertaining drawings to complement the songs. Now there is a new illustrator each year to give The Sing Book a fresh look every time. 'The annual teachers' resource, The Sing Teachers' Handbook, which is the companion publication to The Sing Book, has also had different hats. It was previously known as Sing, Beat, Swing, The Sing Percussion Book and The Sing Activity Book. Sing Today The Sing program is no longer broadcast over the radio. It is now published as a collection that includes The Sing Book, The Sing Teachers' Handbook and the Sing recordings. The Sing Committee The Sing Committee consists of 10 highly experienced music educators who teach music at primary, secondary and tertiary levels. The members include past and present school teachers, composers and private music tutors. They each hold membership in the Committee for three years before others are recruited to fill their place. Ongoing members are the Chair of the Committee, Rhonda Macken (who is also the Music Coordinator of the project) and the Music Producer, John Kane. The Committee meets once a week for an eight week block every year to select songs for The Sing Book. Producing the Sing program is a long process. Time is factored in for the selection of songs, the clearing of copyright, music typesetting, book design and typesetting, creation of The Sing Teachers' Handbook and the producing of the Sing recordings which involves a large team of producers, engineers, vocalists, musicians, and children's choirs. How are songs selected for Sing? The Sing Committee members use their broad collective knowledge of the national and international music repertoire to consider songs that are suitable for primary school students. ABC Books also receives a large number of unsolicited submissions every year, which are carefully considered by the Committee. Each year a new theme is chosen for The Sing Book and 5-10 songs are included which reflect this theme. For example in 2004 it was an 'Australian Historical' theme and in 2005 it was a 'Water' theme. How do I submit my songs for consideration by the Sing Committee? Musicians are welcome to submit their original compositions to be considered by the Sing Committee. People submitting material should ensure that the songs are suitable for primary students (Years 3-6, or 7 in some states), are their own work and they own copyright in the material. Please submit only songs which you feel are your best material. Including the following makes it easier for the Committee to consider your work: a sound recording on CD or cassette; a copy of the lyrics; a copy of the score; names and contact details for all people holding copyright in the work. The Sing Committee will sit from around June 2005 for 8 weeks to consider songs for Sing 2007. We will be accepting unsolicited material up until the end of May 2005. Please address all submissions to the Sing Committee, and click here for details of where to send your song(s). What happens if my song is selected for Sing? A music publisher represents a composition on behalf of the writer/composer. ABC Music Publishing is an internationally affiliated music publisher and represents over 2500 works and 160 composers. When the ABC includes a previously unpublished composition in Sing, we request the music publishing administration rights in that composition, allowing us to act on the successful composer's behalf. This gives the ABC the ability to take up further opportunities for the composition, on the composer's behalf - this may include licensing the music for other uses outside of Sing such as reproduction into other publications, or the inclusion of the composition on CD releases etc. A music publishing contract is issued to the successful composers which specifies the term, territory and royalties offered by the ABC as publishers of that work. Many ABC-published Sing works have appeared in various licensed publications as well as other CD releases, earning the writers extra publishing income. |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 11 Jul 07 - 09:55 AM "I do not believe one generation should be expected to 'apologise' for a previous generation's 'crimes'. After all, an apology carries with it culpability." Well said, Rog Peek! don't today's children have enough fears and troubles without having to shoulder the guilt of their forebears? |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Jul 07 - 11:05 AM Obviously we can't be guilty of something we haven't done yourself, or contributed to someone else doing. So when we say sorry for something our parents did, or our ancestors or our predecessors, we aren't doing the same thing as we are when we say sorry for something we have done ourselves. But we do tend to have a certain solidarity with those who came before us, and that is demonstrated when people express pride at things they did - at their courage,their resilience, whatever. If we feel entitled or even honour-bound to do that, that implies that we should have some equivalent solidarity in expressing sorrow for the evil things they were responsible for, and should be ready to offer some kind of proxy apology on their behalf. Apologies and ride - the two stand or fall together. (All this is a separate matter from something that often gets confused with it - the notion that if we are benefitting today from the proceeds of crimes carried out by our ancestors, our right to do so is open to question.) |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: SharonA Date: 11 Jul 07 - 11:38 AM I agree with McGrath. Additionally, in an apology for something our predecessors did, there's a solidarity of determination to prevent such wrongs from being repeated by us or by those who come after us. |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Jul 07 - 12:10 PM That should have been "Apologies and pride - the two stand or fall together." |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: GUEST,Gerry Date: 11 Jul 07 - 12:40 PM One difference between the slave trade in Bristol and the stolen generation in Australia is that everyone involved in the slave trade is long dead whereas the stealing went on into the 1970s. Today's schoolchildren aren't guilty of anything, of course, and it's even a bit of a stretch to say that their parents are guilty of anything, but there are plenty of folks in Australia today who knew what was going on back then and did nothing to oppose it at the time. |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: Kajikit Date: 11 Jul 07 - 03:29 PM I suppose that children in Queensland shouldn't be taught 'The band played Waltzing Matilda' either... |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Jul 07 - 04:19 PM Waltzing Matilda - "...believed to celebrate the defiant spirit of the local shearers' strike in 1894" is itself pretty political too, when you get down to it. |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: Jim Lad Date: 11 Jul 07 - 04:50 PM Well, an eight years old boy or any school child is a little young to be apologizing the sins of his father. I'd withdraw it from the music curriculum but place it, along with some decent literature in the social studies or history books. |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: Gurney Date: 11 Jul 07 - 05:39 PM I'm Pom/Kiwi, and I'm staying away from comment on the treatment of aborigines, but I will comment on the attitude of the parent who objected (in the original post.) I'm well into reading a book called 'Eve's Bite,' by Ian Wishart, who is a journalist and co-editor of NZs.'Investigate' magazine, and I am appalled by the way public opinion is being manipulated by people with an agenda. My own opinions have been changed over the last 50 years, but I thought it was ME that was changing, not that I was the recipient of deliberate propaganda by people who are disgusting to any parent, and those who are politically active for a system repugnant to the democratically inclined, and those who are pursuing a homosexual agenda, and other activist minorities. The book is a New Zealand book, but most of it will be easily recognised as pertinent in any English-speaking country, and anyone who has got a few years under their belt will see, as I did, how their opinions have been manoeuvred. Perhaps the parent,-remember?-felt that they were being set up, too. And no, I don't entirely agree with Mr Wishart's attitudes. |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: GUEST Date: 11 Jul 07 - 06:08 PM Perhaps, that is the same reason the popular radios have stopped playing "We're So Sorry Uncle Albert" - too many complaints. The Brits really had a way of putting their stamp of "Right And Proper" on the ol' kingdom. |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: Jim Lad Date: 11 Jul 07 - 06:14 PM Set up, Gurney? Can you expand on that. I too questioned the parent's motives so maybe you could enlighten me. |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: Joybell Date: 11 Jul 07 - 06:43 PM The songs in these books are varied. Hundreds have been used over the years. I could open any one of them and find a song that could be considered offensive -- by someone looking for trouble. As a conservationist I shudder when I remember the song "Our Fathers Cleared the Bush". Of course that would be considered, by some, to be the way to go. There are objections, here in this corner of Aus.-- fairly often to what is called "green brainwashing" in schools. Among the songs in these books, during the 70s, there were ones by Dylan and by the Beatles that could be taken apart and misread. I learned "You're Always Welcome at our House" (Shel Silverstein) from one of them. Children love that song, and rightly, but it could be seen as avocating violence -- I stress again by someone looking for trouble. It's interesting that there have been no objections about the content of these books before now. It's a sad day that there is now. Cheers, Joy |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Jul 07 - 07:36 PM And much the same thing happened in Germany, and other countries, didn't it, Gurney, in relation to those fine old Jew-hating traditions? "Public opinion...being manipulated by people with an agenda". Shocking, isn't it? |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: Liz the Squeak Date: 12 Jul 07 - 01:53 AM Of course, banning a song is probably going to lead to a resurgance in its popularity - the best way to get a record into the hit parade at No.1, was to get it banned by the BBC. Already this has started. Hands up those of you reading this thread who've never heard of the song but now want to read a copy of it....? See? LTS |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 12 Jul 07 - 10:52 AM Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me ... |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: Muttley Date: 12 Jul 07 - 11:21 AM If I may. Leeneia and Rog have genuine rights to their opinion. However; I went to Teachers College with eight "Indigenes" here in Melbourne. All but one was a 'Stolen' child. I was given a hard time for hanging around with them by others (whites). However, they were never anything less than polite and accepting of me. One even went so far as to never call me by my given name, but used a word "Djambi" - I asked him once what that meant (I thought he had given me a nick-name that was making a bit of fun of me). He told me it was a word that had no literal translation into English but meant (in his language) something more than a friend or even a cousin but not quite a brother - but nearly so: I was so honoured. By the time we graduated, they were all calling me that. What this meant was that if an Aboriginal couple had a child who looked more 'white' than normal or if the child was half/quarter/eighth etc caste then that child was removed from his/her parents and taken to a government run "Orphanage" where thir acknowledgement of their own heritage, the speaking of their own language, the wish to return to or hold on to their roots was literally beaten out of them and they were inculcated into "White" life and culture. I have also had several close friends over the years who were 'stolen' - several of whom only found out they were Aboriginal after their "parents" died. One is now a brilliant speaker, artist and Didjeridu player who's paintings are now exhibited world-wide! A brilliant book by Sally Morgan - a woman raised as "an adopted Indian orphan" (to simplify the explanation of her status growing up)by a Western Australian couple who only found out that she was, in fact Aboriginal when she was an adult is called "My Way". Similarly, if you wish to see a really good rendition of the way in which the children were 'stolen'; watch the film "Rabbit-Proof Fence". While I am first generation Australian (Scottish) paternally and about sixth or seventh of Irish Convict/German semi-aristocratic stock Maternally. I can hardly be held accountable for the 'stealing of children or lands' by Australian/British forebears - none of my maternal ones were landowners or even Indigenous-servant-possessors. However, I have no problem with saying Sorry for the wrongs done to the Aboriginal people of this land and the theft of their children up until as recently as the 1970's. In fact SO deep are those feelings of terror among the Aboriginals of 'child stealing' that when our "revered" Prime Minister - and I use the term revered VERY, VERY loosely and with tongue firmly planted in my cheek - announced he was taking drastic measures with regard to alcoholism, drug problems etc in some Aboriginal communities; by sending in the ARMY, no less, many of those communities hid their children until they had reassurances that the children were not going to be removed. the majority of the 'Stolen Generation' have NEVER managed to locte living Indigenous relatives/tribe/ family and have remained cut off and adrift. The spiritual connection of Aboriginals to their culture and heritage is deep-seated and it is often that inner pull that leads them to discover that they are in fact Aboriginals and NOT something else: it is something that seems to be a part of them no matter how far removed from their indigenous roots they are - Errol. a bloke I went to college with was sandy-haired, green-eyed, and whiter than me. The only "giveaway" was a 'pug' nose. He chased up his family tree (working in a Government Department at the time helped) he found out he was on-sixteenth Indigenous and his Great-grandmother was a half-caste who was exiled to a Bass Starit Island along with all the other remaining Tasmanian Aboriginals in the 19th Century - including her mother where they largely died out (the full-bloods did) and Errol's Grandmother and mother were then 'resettled' on the mainland as "white folks". My artist mate grew up thinking he was of Mediterranean stock until his "parents" died and he then went through the papers they held and found he wasa 1/4 caste Aboriginal! There is also the matter of massacres perpetrated on the Aboriginals by whites - regularly: I come from a small town where two such massacres occurred nearby and where a mud-brick and stone "fort" still stands in defiance of the local "blacks". Is there any mention of the massacres - - - NO: But there IS a memorial to two whites who died in the process of committing the massacre! Also is the lamentable fact that in another district (it occurred in many - but was actually recorded in this one) where a "Good Samaritan" donated several hundred pounds of flour to local Aboriginal communities - unfortunately the flour was laced with either cyanide or arsenic and though only nine died in the district I am talking about - many got sick and all realised where the sickness originated and ditched the flour; other districts managed to lose many more - some in the hundreds. In yet another district I sat with an elder who, in tears, spoke of a time when his tribe, after being herded onto a 'reservation' were starving (they weren't allowed to hunt in the nearby "White Man's Forest". It seems some young men stole a single sheep to feed the people and the Squatter who owned the purloined animal descended on the camp and he and his men systematically raped and killed in retribution - I won't go into details; even in recollection they sicken me. Then of course there was the practice in the Northern Territory of stockmen invading cmps and killing everyone except the young women who were then dragged off to act as scouts, trackers and 'bed-warmers' for the abductors - the song "Drover's Boy" by Ted Egan and sung brilliantly by John Williamson tell it beautifully. I know I have ranted and I will have offended many "non-sorry" adherents. I do not criticise your right to saying NO to a sorry statement. I persoanlly am not sorry for what was done - it wasn't me or members of my family or kin past or present who were involved. BUT - I think a sorry is in order not so much to actually say sorry for doing these things: but as an ACKNOWLEDGEMENT that these things WERE done. It's just a little word - but it would mean so much. It's so typical that this kind of red-necked attitude of banning such a song would happen in Queensland. After all one of the commonest sayings here in Australia is said while crossing the border from New South Wales into Queensland - - - "Ladies and Gentlemen, you are now entering Queensland ; Please turn your watches back 50 years! Muttley |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: GUEST,meself Date: 12 Jul 07 - 11:41 AM Thanks for that, Muttley; it is very enlightening. There is no intrinsic reason that '"non-sorry" adherents' should be offended; they don't necessarily deny that injustices and horrors took place, but rather that an apology is the appropriate response, for various reasons ... I once met an Australian who told me that his wife's grandfather had told him of having participated in one those massacres you allude to - in that instance, the entire population of a village had been driven over a cliff into the sea, following the (alleged?) rape of a white woman by two Aboriginal men. The guy who told me about this said that he simply could not reconcile his impression of the kindly, decent grandfather he knew with the story of what he had participated in in his youth ... |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: Muttley Date: 12 Jul 07 - 07:16 PM There was always an alleged 'something' to justify an atrocity committed in 'response'. There were good things too. The elder that told me the sheep story also told another. His country was around Warrnambool on Victoria's south-west coast. He went into a pub for a beer and got picked on by a non-local; quite savagely. He was terribly insulting and vicious in his attacks. Just as this White bloke was about to start giving him a beating, the other local whites gave the white aggressor one instead, threw him out of the pub and told him to never come back: turned out the Aboriginal guy was very well respected in the white community as a good worker etc. About 3 or 4 months later, the Aboriginal and his wife were sitting down to dinner when there wa a knock at the door. They were surprised because they lived about 10 miles out of town, hard up against the bushland and it was about 8pm in the dead of winter and it was pouring rain outside. A very bedraggled white bloke was at the door. He was a timber-cutter from a logging camp in the forest and he'd caught a taxi back to camp from town but the taxi driver woulf go no farther than the end of the bitumen road which stopped about 4 or 5 miles shy of the edge of the forest. He'd walked the rest of the way, got lost and fetched up at the only lights he saw - the Aboriginal's house. Banjo (that was the elder's name) invited him in, gave him dry clothes to wear while his own dried in front of the fire and invited him to have dinner with them. After dinner they had a beer together and sat in the loungeroom. It was then that the White bloke said "I know you don't I?" Banjo replied "Yeah, you do! You're the bloke that wanted to fight with me in the pub a few months back - I recognised you when you came to the door" "You recognised me then??? And still you invited me in, fed me gave me dry clothes and made me welcome?" "Why not? said Banjo, "Mate, wer're all brothers under the skin. If I punched you in the face you'd bleed red - so would I. What sort of a person would I be if I left a brother standing in the rain, lost, hungry and cold?" After the beer they gathered his (now drier) clothes and Banjo drove him out to the camp in his own car - he told him to keep the clothes until he could bring them back. From that point on the white bloke (Banjo never told us his name) became Banjo's best mate. He became a good friend and defender of all the Aboriginals in the area. When Banjo told us the story his "White Feller" mate had been 'Gone to God" as he put it about 10 or so years and Banjo was still mourning him. Banjo was very philosophical about their situation: His outlook was 'You've only gotta do the right thing. Forget the past 'cause that's what it is - the past. It WOULD be nice if the Fellers in Charge would admit what they've done and just give us a word of apology for it and then we could get on with fixing the rest of the rubbish goin on between us. But I don't think that's gunna happen - those Feller's in charge don't want to believe what their bosses did to us before!" And there lies the core of the problem. I'd suspect your Grandfather was like that. They were caught up in a belief structure that looked at Aboriginals as non-human: a mindset that existed as Policy into the 1970's in some places and is still a mindset in ordinary folks today. My sister and I can't have a civil conversation about Aboriginals (she's not the sharpest knife in the drawer anyway) because she despises the ones in the area where she lives and tars Aboriginals all over the country with the same brush. There are scumbag Aboriginals out there ones that even other Aboriginals won't acknowledge. In Coober Pedy, a Central Australian mining town, the Aboriginals who loiter around the town centre and who camp out in the desert are shunned by the Tribal-based Aboriginals in their closed community outside of Potch Gully (a suburb). I have come across Aboriginals that have disgusted me from the word go - but I'd be just as disgusted if they were white too. I don't know what the answer is, but Banjo's comes up as the best I've ever come across - we simply need to accept that a 'Sorry' for past wrongs acknowledged is due and then move on. Sad to say that Banjo is now gone too; He has gone back to be with his wife and his best mate. Fortunately his people he mentored in his lifetime continue his ways down in Warrnambool and there is hope. Muttley |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: GUEST,meself Date: 12 Jul 07 - 08:04 PM Thanks again, Muttley. That is a touching story, and, based on my many years of living and working with Canadian Aboriginals, I don't find it at all hard to believe. And the rest of it sounds familiar too - although, the genocide or whatever it was of the Beothuk excepted, we don't seem to have experienced the same degree of blatant violence, apart from actual warfare in the early days. |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: Joe Offer Date: 13 Jul 07 - 01:41 AM So, are there lyrics to this "sorry Song" that somebody can post? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: Rowan Date: 13 Jul 07 - 02:01 AM With his "we simply need to accept that a 'Sorry' for past wrongs acknowledged is due and then move on" Muttley has put it better than most and it is deeply disappointing that out Prime Minister lacks the moral fibre to do just that. SharonA and Joe Offer both had some of the lyrics but I finally tracked down (and bought, today) a copy of The Sing Book 2007", ABC Books, Aust. Broadcasting Corp., GPO Box 9994 Sydney NSW 2001. I can't deal with sheet music although it is in front of me and the whole piece takes only one A4 page. For the purposes of "fair dealing" I suspect that I could take it home and scan it and, send it via PM to Joe, should he wish to have it 'for the record'. The song (#32 of 54) is categorised (in this collection) as "Australasian" and has the following comment; "Written by Kerry Fletcher and performaed by Kerry Fletcher and the Coexistence Voices in 1998, this song can help us all understand the 'road' to reconciliation between indigenous and non-indigenous Australians. 'Sorry Song' urges all Australians to remember the past and look to the future for hope." It is in 3/4 time and the key of C, with an A, a B part and a Coda; the structure is A B B A B B C; the words (with chords) are; Part A | (C) (Bb) (F) (C) (Bb) (C) | If we can now say that we're sorry to the people from this land. | (Bb) (F) (C) | They cry, they cry, their children were stolen. They still wonder why. Part B | (C) (Bb) (F) (C) (Bb) (C) | Sing, sing loud, break through the silence. SIng sorry across this land. | (Bb) (F) (C) (Bb) (C) | We cry, we cry, their children were stolen. Now no-one knows why. Coda | (C) (Bb) (C) (C) | Sorry across this land. (x3) Sorry. [In the hope it displays correctly I've inserted some vertical lines at left of each line left in the hope they align.] It seems to me that anyone who could object to their child singing this and accuse it of "brainwashing" needs both a heart and a brain. One aspect that hasn't yet been mentioned in this or the Great White Father thread, and that might help outsiders is that Australian Aboriginal people have particular connotations to the word "sorry". The term "Sorry business" is used for the whole plethora of activities associated with someone's death. In hope. Rowan |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: Bob Bolton Date: 13 Jul 07 - 02:35 AM G'day, Up above (11 Jul 07 - 09:55 AM) (Possibly) leeneia congratulated Rog Peek's: "I do not believe one generation should be expected to 'apologise' for a previous generation's 'crimes'. After all, an apology carries with it culpability." Well said, Rog Peek! don't today's children have enough fears and troubles without having to shoulder the guilt of their forebears? --------------------- We need to remember this is not just about a previous generation's 'crimes'. As John Howard well knows, within his own time as a younger memebr of the Liberal Party (which then, as now, held the Prime Ministership) many Aboriginal people in rural areas were treated quite literally as slaves. The traditional owners of areas taken by the whites for cattle and sheep stations (~ = US "Ranches") were employed in station work and issued basic "rations" by the ('white') pastoralists. If they tried to leave (for instance, to participate in traditional 'Walkabout' - with meaning in their religion - they were pursued, usually by the local Police, rounded up and brought back in cattle trucks to continue their unpaid work for their "owners". This does not differ from slavery. The Prime Minister, John Howard, has good reasons to deny, censor and whitewash ...especially to prevent any suggestion of reparations to the people we dispossed. He would, in fact, be the ideal person to bear any formal charges for what his party did ... and still stands for. Regards, Bob Bolton |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 13 Jul 07 - 02:47 AM Oh and Bob, our overseas friends probably do not realise that Queensland aborigines were 'paid', by putting their wages into a trust account (because they obvioulsy could not be trusted!) and they were given a few pennies - to buy tobacco! - or if they could 'prove' they needed new clothes or shoes, etc from time to time. The Queensland Government 'stole' the balance - by moving it from tehse holding accounts held in trust for them to General Revenue. Decades have gone into trying to get it back... a 'generous offer' of a few thousand dollars each was refused, because many of them have records that they are owed much more, not including interest... |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: Gurney Date: 13 Jul 07 - 03:04 AM Jim Lad, sorry for the delay getting back, I can't always get a line out, and when I did, Mudcat was down. I live in New Zealand, which has a native people who became full citizens of the (colonised) country very early in the piece, earlier than any other British dominion, male Maoris getting the vote before European females did, and female Maoris at the same time as European females, again the first women (of any shade) in the Commonwealth to be emancipated. Maoris, before the Europeans came, were tribal, holding land in common and by right of conquest, frequently raiding and slaving. After the wars with the settlers that occurred when they realised what they were like, and after conversion by missionaries, preferred the 'English' system of government, rule of law, legal redress, and generally not having to kill or be killed on a regular basis. They became, and overwhelmingly are, solid citizens. Tough buggers, though, and mighty soldiers. One won a VC last week. SAS. There is an element, among the Maoris, which is working for the New Tomorrow on a racial basis, and prying concessions from our government because of what they see as past wrongs. They use Political Correctness as their main weapon. They have scored some great financial successes. It is an incremental process, and a governmental apology is usually the first step. So, as I said, 'being set up.' McGrath, couldn't agree more about the Nazis. So does Ian Wishart, who compares propaganda used by those arseholes to the propaganda published by various political homosexuals as a way to change the thinking of the majority, and it worked in both cases. It is working for child molesters, too, and several Governments have reduced the Age of Consent. How about 12? That is what he says Holland has reduced it to, unless I misread. Read the book if you can. You are a reasonable enough bloke, from your posts, and you are likely to get your eyes opened, as I did. Hell of a book to read, but. I dropped out of the Catholic Church because they tried to lumber me with the concept of Original Sin. No way am I responsible for someone else's sins. |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: Rowan Date: 13 Jul 07 - 03:25 AM I seem to recall that some 'catters have interests in the titles that appear in collections and song books. "The Sing Book 2007" has the following songs with # Title;alternative title, +/- ethnic origin, (Category) words & music by; 1 Puttin' on the Ritz, (Popular) Irving Berlin 2 Mr Williie Wagtail, (Australasian) Neil McClelland 3 The Lion Sleeps Tonight, (Folk/Partner) G Weiss, H Peretti, L Creatore, S Linda 4 Addams Family, (Humorous) V Mizzy 5 Dansi na Kuimba, Swahili, (Partner) Dave & Jean Perry 6 A Wallaby in My Garden, (Environment) Matthew Hindson 7 Walkies on the Wild Side, (Humorous) Keith McDonald & Paul Stanton 8 Breakaway, (Popular) Bridget Benenate, Avril Lavigne, Matthew Gerrard 9 The Bear Song; the other day I met a bear, (Humorous) Trad. 10 Raining on the Rock, (Country) John Williamson 11 La Bolivianita, (World Music) Trad. 12 Believe It or Not; Greatest American Hero (Popular) M Post & S Geyer 13 The Ballad of Kelly's Gang, (Folk) Trad. 14 Today I Feel Older, (Round) Jan Holdstock 15 Rainforest Rap, (Rap or Rhyme) Sam Vallentine 16 Beatles Medley, (Medley) various Beatles 17 Toway, (World Music) Trad. 18 From Today, (Being Me) Ian Jefferson 19 Weather With You, (Popular) Tim & Neil Finn 20 The Flower that Shattered the Stone, (Environment) Joe Henry & John Jarvis 21 Mosquitoes, (Choir) Wendy Ireland 22 That's What Friends Are For, (Theme) Burt F Bacharach & Carol Bayer Sager 23 Teddy Bears (sic) Picnic, (Theme) J Bratton & J Kennedy 24 On the Good Ship Lollipop, (Theme) Clare/Whiting 25 Swanee, (Theme) Gershwin & Caesar 26 The Cup of Life; La Copa de la Vita, 1998 Soccer World Cup, (Theme) Robi Rosa & Desmond Child 27 Vincent; Starry Starry Night, (Theme) Don McLean 28 How Much is That Doggie in the Window?, (Theme) Bob Merrill 29 Georgy Girl, (Theme) Tom Springfield 30 Look for the Silver Lining, (Theme) Kern & De Silva 31 Rock Around the Clock, (Theme) Max Freedman & Jimmy Knight 32 Sorry Song, (Australasian) Kerry Fletcher 33 On Top of Spaghetti, (Humorous) Tom Glazer 34 Londonderry Air; Danny Boy (Folk) Trad. 35 Sun-A-Rise, (Australasian) Rolf Harris & Harry Butler 36 Ai Bolubolum, Tatar, (World Music) Trad. 37 Gadigi Nylan, Kunhgganji, Torres Strait, (Aboriginal/Torres St Islander) The Kunhgganji People 38 Redback on the Toilet Seat, (Humorous) Ralph "Slim" Newton 39 Our Lips Are Sealed, (Popular) Jane Wiedlin & Terence Edward Hall 40 Mashed Potato, (Rap or Rhyme) Katherine Dines 41 When the Rain Tumbles Down in July, (Country) Slim Dusty 42 Nobody Nose, (Humorous) Kaye Umansky 43 Frim Fram Sauce, (Jazz) Joe Ricardel & Redd Evans 44 It's Breakfast Time, (Australasian) Kevin Mahoney 45 You'll Be In My Heart, (Show Tune) Phil Collins 46 Lachlan Tigers, (Folk) Trad. 47 En Roulant Ma Boule (World Music) Trad. 48 On My Way, (Celebration) Phil Collins 49 The Sow Took the Measles, Arkansa, (Choir) Trad. 50 Charlie Chaplin Went to France, (Round) Trad. 51 Po Atarau; ("O Moonlit Night") Now is the hour, Maori, (World Music) Trad. 52 You've Got a Friend In Me, (Being Me) Randy Newman 53 Zebra, (Popular) J Wiltshire-Butler 54 Santa Bring Me a Dinosaur, (Clebration) Bob Brown 55 Reindeer Boogie, (Celebration) Stephen Lawrence Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: Joe Offer Date: 13 Jul 07 - 03:25 AM Well, Gurney, that's part of the concept of Original Sin. We live in a world of suffering. If we're not suffering as much as others, then perhaps we should have a modicum of guilt if we haven't done enough to ease their suffering. If you live in Australia (or wherever) and have a standard of living far higher than that of the aboriginal peoples, perhaps a bit of guilt is in order. No, we can't solve all the problems of those in need, but I think we need to feel a deep responsibility to do what we can. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: Muttley Date: 13 Jul 07 - 06:44 AM I've got about 15 years worth of "Sing" books - or their alternative titles depending on the year and the following have appeared several times. In fact I think the top one is in about 2 out of every 3 years! 3 The Lion Sleeps Tonight, (Folk/Partner) G Weiss, H Peretti, L Creatore, S Linda 4 Addams Family, (Humorous) V Mizzy 10 Raining on the Rock, (Country) John Williamson 13 The Ballad of Kelly's Gang, (Folk) Trad. 16 Beatles Medley, (Medley) various Beatles 23 Teddy Bears (sic) Picnic, (Theme) J Bratton & J Kennedy 24 On the Good Ship Lollipop, (Theme) Clare/Whiting 25 Swanee, (Theme) Gershwin & Caesar 26 The Cup of Life; La Copa de la Vita, 1998 Soccer World Cup, (Theme) Robi Rosa & Desmond Child 27 Vincent; Starry Starry Night, (Theme) Don McLean 28 How Much is That Doggie in the Window?, (Theme) Bob Merrill 29 Georgy Girl, (Theme) Tom Springfield 31 Rock Around the Clock, (Theme) Max Freedman & Jimmy Knight 33 On Top of Spaghetti, (Humorous) Tom Glazer 34 Londonderry Air; Danny Boy (Folk) Trad. 35 Sun-A-Rise, (Australasian) Rolf Harris & Harry Butler 38 Redback on the Toilet Seat, (Humorous) Ralph "Slim" Newton 41 When the Rain Tumbles Down in July, (Country) Slim Dusty As for the Maori's they were the first and only indigenous race in a country "invaded" by the British Empire who actually fought back in a concerted and unified manner - a bit like the Celts and Scots - more than happy to fight among themselves but drop a common enemy in front of them and look out! They gave it to the Brits so savagely that the mighty Empire Builders had to sue for peace and actually struck a Trety - the Treaty of Waitangi (Waitange)- Gurney will know how to spell it. Unfortunately our native indigenes were far more laid back and the concept of fighting for their country was alien to them and so they simply got shoved aside and treated as animals. They also had a much looser and more "primitive" social structure than the Maori's. Besides which - You don't wanna take on even ONE Maori unless he's still in nappies (diapers) - and even then make sure there's nothing around he can hit you with. Turned up to a Maori who'd been bashed in south-eastern, bayside suburb of Melbourne when I was a paramedic. A broken finger and a few lacerations and then he said "You'd better check the other fellers" "Other fellers?" I asked "Yeah: they're inside" I went inside and just stood there with my mouth hanging open and called to my mate "Three more cars Jim - STAT!" Apparently someone had taken offence at this guy drinking with them and attacked him. He defended himself - brutally, so the attackers mates all joined in and he defended himself again - brutally. I think we had (there were six other casualties) 7 broken limbs (2 of them multiples) several lacerations and ALL of them were unconscious - one had been shoved THROUGH a wall separating the loungeroom from the kitchen and was still laying in the hole! There were also 2 broken baseball bats, The bats had been used by the white fellers and one of them had broken our Maori's finger - so he broke the bats - with his bare hands; he DIDN'T use them on his attackers. After seeing that I can: a) understand why the Brits sued for peace and sought a treaty and b) I have ALWAYS walked VERY carefully around Maori's ever since! Muttley |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: Jim Lad Date: 13 Jul 07 - 03:15 PM Gurney: I can go along with you to a degree and then at some point, we drift apart. As I've previously said, I don't think that it's right to ask the children to apologize for their parents' wrongdoings. They're just children but someone should have apologized before now. I imagine that they have but as different wrongs come to light, over the years, more apologies will be forthcoming. Given that scenario: Today's children will be apologizing for something when they're much older. Now Muttley: I am going over to the "Amplified Buskers" thread, this afternoon and will be dealing with your issue here as well as the Busking dilemma. You are one heck of a story teller. (Don't want to create a Thread Drift from this topic) Regards. Jim |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 13 Jul 07 - 09:46 PM I've felt for some time, that the ABC song books were a cultural resource that Mudcat should have been aware of... |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: Rowan Date: 13 Jul 07 - 10:06 PM I've just sent the scan of the Sorry Song page to Joe Offer, along with the words to Bruce Watson's song of the same name that is on Mark Gregory's Union Songs site Union Songs site [sorry, SharonA, although your advice was sound it seems I'm still a Luddite] While in apology mode I see from katlaughing's post that the school is in Kiama, NSW and not Queensland. The radio broadcast of the news snippet was brief and mentioned no politician's name I recognised and I must have misheard Kiama as Queensland in the ambient noise. Sorry to all you Queenslanders. And a thumbs down to Kevin Rudd's response; such spinelessness is not worthy of an alternative Prime Minister. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: Muttley Date: 14 Jul 07 - 12:19 AM Kiama - might as well be Queensland. (Anyone know the theme from Deliverance?) Rudd might be spineless - but he's GOTTA be a better alternative than 'Little Johnny' - Hell, he can't even see where he's going unless George W drops his pants and bends over so Johnny can peek out! Arrogant and TOTALLY out of touch - besides which, he'll resign if re-elected and then we're left with Costello - he'd be worse than Howard, Hawke and Keating combined. My motto is: Don't vote at all if you can help it - it only encourages them! Muttley |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: Jim Lad Date: 14 Jul 07 - 04:25 AM Jeeze! I was a Whitlam fan. |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Jul 07 - 11:07 AM couldn't agree more about the Nazis. I think you miss my point, gurney. I was referring (ironically, I admit)to the efforts in post Nazi decades, in Germany and elsewhere, to discredit anti-semitism. What you might call "Public opinion...being manipulated by people with an agenda". |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: Rowan Date: 15 Jul 07 - 12:57 AM Well I'll be blowed! When I posted the message with the link to the Union Songs site the text and html code were all obvious and displayed as text; hence the apology to SharonA. It was still like that when I checked later, but today it looks as it should. Thanks to any Mudelfs involved. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: goatfell Date: 15 Jul 07 - 03:36 AM but Queensland is a Racists red necked state in Australia, some people there just hate the Aboridgines |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: goatfell Date: 15 Jul 07 - 03:38 AM I thought that 'GUEST' where supposed to be banned unless they had a name that went along with it, but here's a thread with a 'GUEST' WITH NO NAME, I mean what is going on |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: Muttley Date: 15 Jul 07 - 08:41 AM Guest With No name - - - is that the follow-up song to "Horse With No Name" by America??? Muttley |
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Subject: RE: 'Sorry Song' banned in Qld school From: Rowan Date: 16 Jul 07 - 03:23 AM Muttley, I agree that the current govt of the Commonwealth needs to be replaced and I can (sort of) sympathise with Kevin Rudd not wanting to poke his head above any parapets but, even though he's from Queensland, I had thought him to have more spine than to agree to the notion of "the song as inappropriate for schools" and regarding it as an example of "political correctness". But then, I've always thought that Ronald Wilson had the best take on political correctness in Oz (and I'm aware that it has other resonances elsewhere) when he said, "'Political Correctness' is invoked as a term of abuse for those who have sought to bring marginalised people into the framework of a unified nation. I am happy to be seen as politically correct if that means being sensitive to the problems of the disadvantaged and working to overcome them." The late Sir Ronald Wilson (former High Court judge and President of the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission) quoted in Sydney Morning Herald 2 August 1997. Cheers, Rowan |
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