BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)

Subject: BS: Great White Father knows best...?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 10:16 AM

Is this an example of proper government concern, or attempeted control over citizen's lives?



Aborigines banned from booze, porn

POSTED: 9:16 a.m. EDT, June 21, 2007

CANBERRA, Australia (AP) -- Australia's leader has announced plans to ban pornography and alcohol for Aborigines in some areas, and to tighten control over their welfare benefits to fight what he called a child sex abuse crisis among them.

Prime Minister John Howard was responding to an officially commissioned report last week saying child abuse was rampant in indigenous communities in the Northern Territory, fueled by alcohol abuse, unemployment, poverty and other factors causing a breakdown in civil society.

"This is a national emergency," Howard told Parliament Thursday. "We're dealing with a group of young Australians for whom the concept of childhood innocence has never been present."

Some Aboriginal leaders immediately slammed the plan as paternalistic, saying they had not been consulted about it and that they objected to restricting how indigenous people can spend welfare benefits.

Others applaud the plan's requirement that at least half of area Aborigines' welfare checks be spent on food and other necessities -- a measure aimed to cut spending on gambling and alcohol. They want similar conditions placed on payments in a trial in neighboring Queensland state.

Family welfare payments would also be linked to children's school attendance.

However, some warn that such a system -- applied only to Aborigines -- could breach federal discrimination laws.

Howard announced the measures for the Northern Territory, an Outback region where his federal government retains powers that it doesn't have over Australia's six states, and urged state leaders to apply similar tough rules in their jurisdictions.

The new measures would apply to about half of the sprawling Northern Territory, on land that has been returned to Aboriginal ownership under federal law over the past 30 years.

The sale, possession and transportation of alcohol would be banned for six months on the Aboriginal-owned land, Howard said, and sales would be reviewed after that.

The child abuse report said drinking was a key contributor to Aboriginal culture's collapse, and to neglect of children and creating opportunities for pedophiles.

Hardcore pornography, which the report found was rife in Aboriginal communities and available to children -- who were thus desensitized to sex with adults, and who sometimes act out scenes with each other -- also would be banned.

Publicly funded computers would be audited to ensure that they had not been used to download such images, the government said.

Some Aboriginal leaders immediately condemned the plan -- which the government had not previously indicated it was considering -- saying it exemplified government behavior that has disenfranchised their people and created social problems in the first place.

"I'm absolutely disgusted by this patronizing government control," said Mitch, a member of a government board helping Aborigines who were taken from their parents under past assimilation laws.

"And tying drinking with welfare payments is just disgusting," said Mitch, who uses only one name.

"If they're going to do that, they're going to have to do that with every single person in Australia, not just black people," she said.

Some civic leaders fear further alcohol restrictions could drive troublemakers off Aboriginal land into Northern Territory towns and cities, to live and drink on the streets.

Many Aboriginal communities already ban or restrict alcohol. Their residents sometimes travel to towns for drinking binges.

"We'd be concerned about anything that led to more people coming to town seeking alcohol," said Geoff Brooks, chief executive office of the Katherine Town Council.

The federal government can change laws in the territory with an act of Parliament, where Howard has a majority that ensures he can implement his policy.

Howard also urged state governments to send police to the Northern Territory to address an Aboriginal land shortage.

About 60,000 of Australia's roughly 400,000 Aborigines live in the Northern Territory -- the highest proportion of indigenous residents anywhere in the country.

Many live in isolated, impoverished communities where jobs are scarce and substance abuse is widespread.

Aborigines are a tiny minority among Australia's 21 million people.

They suffer much higher poverty and addiction rates, and other problems. Their life expectancy is 17 years shorter than that of other Australians.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 11:00 AM

I heard about this on NPR. Who died and put them in charge?

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...?
From: Metchosin
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 11:05 AM

This is the first time I have read anything that makes Canada's abysmal treatment, attitudes and policies, regarding indigenous people here, look pretty good by comparison. Jesus H. Keerist....

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 11:26 AM

The report I read said that all aboriginal children will be medically examined. Is this to make sure that they are healthy or is it to see if they have been abused? This could be distressing to some children.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 11:37 AM

I wonder if this kind of afterthought treatment would've worked here in the US & helped with our indigenous peoples. Both Native Americans, Slaves & Hawaiians have had some of the same sorts of troubles. Could it be that the damage already done to their societies by those that would now oversee their welfare is a bit short on the dollar & just a bit more than a day too late? Are they afraid that their drinking will be an ugly blight in the white townships or has the government just now becoming concerned, again just a bit more longer than a day late. This kind of thing is seen in societies of displaced & disposed of indigenous people all over, there are plenty of examples to study of take warning from. Sweep them under the rug, after all they've always been treated as doormats, treat the symptoms & just doctor the causes, & by all means if it's gonna take some money to make everything right make damn sure that they pay for it themselves. Some governments should have a "Special Department of Hindsight" since they talk out of their ass so much.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 11:41 AM

"Is this to make sure that they are healthy or is it to see if they have been abused?"

Hi Eanjay, It could be they want to fix (as in animals) them (the kids), it's been done before, in the US. That type of program I would high suspect & be very afraid of.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 12:21 PM

These sorts of issues are extremely complex. However, the paternalism is troubling. Our society seems wedded to hierarchical structures, in which the people at the top decide what's best for the people on the bottom ... In this instance, it does not sound as if Aboriginals were consulted as to what they need, think, want, feel.

I'm afraid the Canadian government too often takes the same approach in dealing with Aboriginals. The difference is in degree, perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...?
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 12:41 PM

Them that have always want to control them that don't. In the USA, there are many items which a welfare food stamp recipient is not allowed to buy with their food stamps. It infuriates me that Big Brother has the right to dictate daily lives in that way. It is even more infuriating to read this thread and learn of the Australian government's continued dictates to indigenous peoples. They have no right, esp. to single out people who have already suffered for so long at the hands of The Powers that Be. This is bullshit and should not be allowed, imo!

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 12:43 PM

While I will agree that consultation should have taken place and some of the steps taken (if accurately reported) are a bit over the top, I would be seriously concerned if all parties did not take all necessary steps to safeguard children from sexual predators.
Just a wee byline here: When we speak of children, here in Canada "Our Children" becomes the description of choice.
Yet, when those children are on reserves, "Aboriginal Children" becomes the most accepted description. A subconscious distancing.
With this in mind, let me say to our Australian friends that they are your children, regardless of their location or ethnicity.
Perhaps if Mr Howard could do the same, he would find more appropriate ways to prevent the exploitation of Australian children.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 12:52 PM

In Alaska many Native communities are dry or have some version thereof (some are package sales only). However, in all cases it is something the community itself voted in. Some communities have changed their ordinances back to 'wet'; in some cases they changed back to dry.

I don't see how any outside body, whether federal or otherwise, can make such laws. Kind of like forcing one's own version of democracy on a country- which is bound to resist it.

As in almost everything, education is the key. When native elders become convinced of harmful practices they will convince the community- from that point it is only the occasional miscreant that has to be punished.

At least, that is how it works in Alaska.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...?
From: Sorcha
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 04:50 PM

I saw this and and am really hoping that Hilda Fish checks in here. IMO, it is an OUTRAGE to treat an entire race of people like children who need minding.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...?
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 05:00 PM

If they weren't like children they'd be just like John Howard & Co.: righteous, up-standing, civilized, and White. And we ALL know the White Race has a God-given mission to civilize the Other Races, preferably to Christianize them. And if they don't like it, we have Martini-Enfields to convince them.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 06:16 PM

You'd think the Great White 'Whale' would learn something eventually-as far as I know, almost literally every overwhelmed minority has, at least for a time, suffered high alcohol and other drug abuse, high school drop out rates, high unemployment rates, high crime rates, high suicide rates, high rates of premature deaths, high infant mortality rates, on and on and on.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...?
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 06:30 PM

"This is a national emergency," Howard told Parliament Thursday. "We're dealing with a group of young Australians for whom the concept of childhood innocence has never been present."-John Howard


!!!???!!!

That statement goes beyond paternalism to straight out racism. It appears to me that Howard's personal racism is fueling [more] Australian institutional racism*.

Here's a news article about this topic: http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/20070621-0300-australia-aborigines.html "Australia plans to ban alcohol, pornography for Aborigines to fight child abuse"

I'm sure that I'm not alone in asking these questions:

Does the Australian government really think that these punitive measures will solve real conditions in those communities in the short run and in the long haul?

Why didn't [doesn't] the government engage in real consultation and real planning with the targeted population?

What currently operating programs and what proposed programming ideas do Indigenous people have to address the conditions in their own communities?

What monies have been committed to culturally competent alchohol treatment programs & culturally competent mental health treatment programs for Australian Indigenous people?

What systems will be established to ensure that individuals use their welfare payments as mandated by this new plan? What systems will be established to make sure that all aboriginal children are medically examined, and that publicly funded computers would be audited to ensure that they contained no pornography?

Who is going to get these jobs?

Where is this money coming from?

Couldn't this money be put to better use?

Who will benefit from this decision?

Power, racism and paternalism...And the beat goes on...

* Definitions for Institutional Racism

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...?
From: Sorcha
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 06:56 PM

I hear you Azzizi. I hear you. Now, there is 'some' research/evidence out there that tends to indicate that aboriginal populations (Australian, American, Canadian, etc....) are somehow more 'genetically prone' to some forms of abuse...alcohol, etc...but this is just OTT.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 08:10 PM

Azizi - well said

I've been listening to talk back on ABC radio (our national broadcaster & not a shock-jock in sight) & heard a few things that might answer some of your questions.

A nurse who formerly worked in township & remote communities in the Northern Territory said that teachers & police officers are usually very young, on their first postings & while they do their best, cannot do everything. Doctors are few & far between, Nurses are more widely available, & usually older & more experienced, but again are stretched to the limit.

Unfortunately it's not on audio, but here are a few links to Indigenous programming.

Message stick - Aboriginal & Torres Strait Islander On-Line

check out Latest Indigenous news

Little Johnny telling the nation's doctors & nurses they gotta help

'Get the police in, and the booze out'says Federal Health Minister Tony Abbott.

I'm seizing control, says PM

Guess who's facing an election in a few months? One of the comments this morning mentioned that The Government has known for years about these problems, but chose to no nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...?
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 08:16 PM

Thanks for the links, Sandra in Sydney.

-SIGH-

I wish the world were better than it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...?
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 08:21 PM

When I heard this on the radio I checked my calendar to make sure I had the date right -- felt like it had to be April 1. Clearly there is a problem but this patronizing, patriarchal response is surely not going to help --- other than to piss off the aborigines more than they already are......

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...?
From: Gurney
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 10:52 PM

According to our radio, just over the Tasman, "many" aboriginal leaders are much in favour of the move. Much is made of the pornography, drunkenness, and child molestation.

It isn't in general society, but on reservations, which the offenders can leave. If it saves a children from being shagged and debased on camera for the delectation of perverts, I'd think it was a good thing.
Maybe others wouldn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...?
From: hilda fish
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 12:53 AM

I've just this last hour come back from a big Indigenous meet in Cessnock that has been going on yesterday and today. We CRIED last night because of this. It is so complex and yet I feel I have to at least talk a bit ......... I notice both here and in many other areas there is ongoing comparative mention of other Indigenous communities throughout the world. This is a socio-economic problem, not an Indigenous problem. As Indigenous communities, we are not habitually morally corrupt child abusers which is the impression that the media are giving - although I am not denying the realities of the child abuse. Many MANY of the abusers are white MEN in positions of power in the community as well as local men. I work in an area where among others are many who are convicted of child sex abuses and I have to try and work out ways without abusing their human rights to stop them getting Aboriginal cultural qualifications in order to work in these remote communities. These communities are havens for these sort of people because they are remote, white people have the positions of authority and power , teachers, nurses, doctors, religious ministers, psychologists, sellers of alcohol, store proprieters, policemen, community builders etc. etc. Once again I must be clear that I am not denying a very real problem that exists within a very damaged, dispossessed, and vilified community, that of Indigenous Australians. The problem also exists in many other communities and overall we must all ask ourselves that question, "where are the children", and take on board that we are all the fathers and mothers of all children, difficult as that is in a modern society. A complicity happens in communities that broaden as time goes by. The problems of remote communities have been articulated by the Elders in those communities for many many decades and nothing has been done. Decent housing, accessible food and schooling have been some of the primary requests of these communities for over three decades. The money has been put aside Federally and then, nothing is done. The money is moved elsewhere in the way that governments do and things get worse in the communities. (Either the community is not informed that the money is available and it goes back into Treasury, they lack the administrative organisations or institutional structures that are needed in order for the money to be released and it goes back into Treasury, the money has to be administered through a particular bank in a major area in which case the community is not able to access it so it goes back into Treasury, it is released to local government builders who build something else and so the community doesn't see it ad infinitum) Alcohol abuse, pornography that contributes to various sexual abuses, horrific domestic violence, rape, and child abuse are tremendous problems in Claymore and Mt Druitt (outer western socio-economically disadvantaged suburbs of Sydney Australia) as well.   These problems are also horribly endemic in the poorer and more dispossessed areas of London, Paris, Ottowa, Washington, and so on. They are problems that exist within very damaged communities, and the damage is often primarily related to extreme poverty and extreme dispossession from mainstream social norms such as education, employment, food, housing, health and so on. These problems are not an Indigenous problem, they ARE socio-economic and they get worse and worse because of this complicity of agreeing that it is an Indigenous problem for example, that it is not our problem, that we don't interfere and we don't ask. Almost, it is not a human problem - wherever it exists they are less than human - aren't they???? A young Indigenous man was saying to me today that he has been looking out how Nazi German happened because he really wants to understand how people could be so dreadful to each other and KNOW, and noticed that things eroded slowly, that people chose not to stand up and protest even though they were deeply troubled by what was going on, and finally they too suffered and then there was no-one. WE all let these things happen. We are all complicit in making it another problem, making another race look morally and ethically bankrupt, shrugging our shoulders and lifting our hands. That's one side of the coin. The other is the deeply cynical act of a morally corrupt man who is facing election in three months time and is using the appearance of himself rescuing young children from their dreadfully corrupt families and communities in order to emotionally sway an electorate who was swayed once before in the same way. Remember those dreadful families who threw their children overboard? What sort of people are they? Certainly not the sort that we want in Australia. Yet minutes after he got back in it was found to be a lie. Those children WERE NOT thrown overboard. Yet how ready Australians were to believe then as they are now, even knowing they accepted a lie once and could again, as the world is now. Constitutionally the Prime Minister knows that he just cannot go in like a big jock with footie boots and kick peoples heads in. What sort of child abuse is it that medically examines children to see if they are virgins, to see if their anus has been 'stretched', if they have venereal disease, all a further concentration on their genitals, their very private selves, which is what child abuse is all about, because that is what the medical examinations are about. What about decent food - it would be very easy to organise with communities to have a free breakfast program within a school that EXISTS within the communities, not kilometres and hours away. It would be easy to organise community based health centres with community people being trained to nurture, heal, administer and educate. It would be easy to build houses within communities and train local people to be builders, electricians, etc. as an ongoing building, maintenance and renovation programme. It would be easy to support through community workers and community vans, the demands of communities for 'dry' communities. So many communities have already done this. These have been the requests from these communities for over thirty years and because nothing has been done, things get worse and worse. Would young girls star in pornographic movies made by local ringers and drovers and miners, if food, clothing, shelter, and hope were an everyday part of their lives. We all know they wouldn't. But this Prime Minister comes in boots and all and cynically exploits the endemic racism in this country, exploits the apathy of a people who are prepared to believe that Indigenous people are so less human than they that they cannot even protect their own without asking why, exploits the helplessness of children who can do nothing when he inevitably fails them, attacks the very basis of democracy in this country which is the right of each individual, each community, to contribute to their own self-determination. These are the reasons why we cried. We felt real hopelessness and despair, something I have not really felt for some time. We have cried our tears for our children, for ourselves, for and with our Elders of which I am one now as I am 60 this year, older than a lot of my people. We cry because our Prime Minister can say these things and do these things with the pathetic support of ALL the political alternatives, and he can comfortably get away with it. Where are we as Indigenous people if this can happen? Meanwhile we, with no resources, no support, no respect or trust from politicians, must try and grow up our children knowing that all damage is generational. We as Elders have survived, just. This is our community - we know it best. We want to be safe, to be educated, to have food in our bellies and a roof over our heads. We want our communities to grow up our children and love them so that they in turn can grow up and love the next generations. With no money, no support and a Prime Minister like this one, what do you reckon our chances are? Anyway, just some thoughts from the heart on this one with the hope that we all can continue to talk and learn in the best ways that we can.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 02:34 AM

I am crying with you hilda fish.

I also wonder why it is that people do not stand up and protest.

I've also noticed that when someone does, a few people in the crowd actually sneer while the rest of them look at the ground. What is that about? Is it shame or is it that they are afraid that if they protest that they too will become targets.

I think its because most people are living in fear and the government exploits that fear and turn it into power. I wonder when all people (regardless of colour) will realize that their strength depends on them standing together. Those who think that they are 'staying out of it' are passively supporting the status quo.

The Australian government is truly backwards. Some of the ideas may not be so bad but if they think they can make it law without consultating the community, they are simply dictators. What is worse is that it won't work. It will cost alot of money and only increase the alienation of the aboriginal community.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...?
From: freda underhill
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 02:41 AM

Australians living in remote communities experience similar sexual abuse scandals as in many refugee camps, or some in closed religious communities. People who live in tents, or in dilapidated structures with no doors, can't protect themselves. They can't lock the door to keep abusive people out.

The Minister (Mal Brough) was informed of these problems years ago by indigenous people and did nothing. Our Governor General had to stand down when it was discovered that in his former life as an Anglican archbishop he did not act against sex offenders in the church. When will Mal brough be called to stand down?

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...?
From: freda underhill
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 02:44 AM

What you said is very true Dianavan. A letter to one of our national papers this week said that she had given a report on these matters to Mal Brough some years ago. because she is indigenous, it wasn't taken seriously. She was sneered at by his advisers and asked how they knew it wasn't false memory syndrome.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 03:17 AM

On the radio yesterday, I heard an Aboriginal leader from Sydney making the same point as (one of the many excellent points) hilda fish made: Communities have been taking some of these actions themselves for years. Many are already "dry". The PM is apparently well aware of this, which is what makes yesterday's announcement seem like the worst kind of cynical politicking. But even in dry communities, people can still go to the towns and get alcohol. What are you going to do - outlaw drink? Make it illegal for Aboriginal people anywhere in the country to buy alcohol?

From what history tells us, knee-jerk reactions like this don't actually remove the offending material, whatever it may be; they simply drive the commodity underground, and create a black market where the vulnerable can be exploited. Crime increases as a result. And then the vulnerable community in question will be blamed for that, too.

There is no honour in treating a whole community like children. Infantilising groups of people only removes their autonomy and self-determination, and makes them further dependent on the state. It's only a genuine framework of support and education that will change things.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 08:33 AM

Is there ANYTHING this far flung community can acutally DO? Would writing letters, e mail, etc help? I feel so helpless up here in Old Wyoming....

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 09:58 AM

... and you wonder why I have been calling him 'Little Fascist Johnny' for ages?

He's the Consumnate Politican - Some of the measures only have a six-month life spam - the election has to be over by the end of November.

We don't have any 'children overboard' this time, but it's still "Save the Children"!!!

"Look Over There at the Big Bad Bogey Man!
Hide behind Me and I'll Protect you!"

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 10:19 AM

Sorcha - one of my links was to Sydney's major newspaper, another to the Australian Broadcasting commission - both have contacts somewhere on their sites & here they are.

the Sydney Morning Herald often has letters from overseas readers.
SMH letters page

ABC News - Contact/Have your say

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)
From: goatfell
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 10:57 AM

I just feel sorry for the aboridgines who live in Australia because some of them are treated like shit, my sister Jean and her family sometime treat aboridgines as shit, and then they justify it.

Dr Who

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)
From: goatfell
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 11:18 AM

I go to Australia on holiday sometimes, and I've been in almost ever state and terrority exepcet central Australia you Alice Springs and the surrounding area, but I still feel sorry for the Aboridgine and I'm saying sorry to them all because of what the white has done and is still doing to them well some of them.

Dr Wha (I'm scottish)

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 11:58 AM

That differential treatment because of a somewhat higher incidence of particular crimes in an identifiable part of the population may give us some ideas how theses ingenious measures can be applied elsewhere on a wider scale.

It is known that women are more likely to poison someone than men are. So they should not have the right to buy any poison unless accompanied by an adult male.

It is know that men are more likely to drive under the influence of alcohol. So no alcohol should be sold to any male unless in company of a woman with a driver's licence.

It is known that young males are responsible for for much car accidents than corresponds to their percentage in the population. So males should not be allowed to drive a car unless they are 30 years old.

That idea looks as if they have thought about many different possibilities how to deal with the problem and after skipping all sensible ideas they follow the one that (1) will not help (2) is racist and (3) breaks internationally acknowledged human rights.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 04:46 PM

Yes! Wolfgang, I think you just might have it there!!!!! It is well known that females putting on makeup while driving cause crashes, so NO female may buy makeup unless accompnied by a male old enough to be her grandfather!

Cell phones cause crashes...so let's not sell any cell phones to anyone with a driver's liscense, eh?

And ALL drive up food windows should be BANNED! It's well known that eating while driving causes crashes too!!!! NO MORE DRIVE UPS!

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 05:57 PM

hilda, thank you so much for your words. IMO, they should be published in as many papers as possible and distributed widely. You have certainly earned the right to be an Elder/WiseWomon. I have felt such anguish over these draconian measures and also so helpless, as Sorcha expressed. Your words haunted my dreams last night and I awoke with such sorrow at the way humankind treats one another.

Mitakuye Oyasin

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 01:59 PM

I recently read a couple of plays that dramatize the background of colonialism that these issues should be seen against. One being 'Our Country's Good' by Timberlake Wertenbaker, based on a novel by Thomas Kenneally, concerns the establishment of an early colony of convicts, and 'No Sugar' by Jack Davis, about a family of Aboriginals during the Depression.

I highly recommend them both ...

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 07:36 AM

A sonnet ( no screams, now!) that I wrote at the opening of the NMAI, after listening to stories from Native American verterans.


Sonnet 27/09/04 On the Opening of NMAI CMXXXIII

I listen to the songs of life, as told
By dark-eyed beauties, hair the color of
True wisdom: Quiet words that power hold
To speak of family, work; hopes, tears, and love.
I see the flash of fire in eyes, that tell
Of old injustice, but a smile for all.
What have we done, to past redeem, or spell
Out what we owe for what greed let befall?
I feel the beat of drums: Power to move
Both feet and hearts. What will the future show?
How can this nation honest fairness prove
Unless we make amends for what we know?
We have no reason, now, to debt deny:
How will our conscience to this call reply?

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 05:49 PM

It still amazes me what some politicians will do to get re-elected, the harm they are willing to inflict on the least powerful instead of working with them in a more constructive fashion.

Australia politicians are certainly not unique. We have some of the same breed in the States, trying among other things to seal our borders against alien invasion. I wish we could send those SOB's back to what ever country spawned them.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)
From: Rowan
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 09:34 PM

To help our overseeas friends understand some of the background;
Everything hildafish wrote is a correct description
Foolestroupe's cynicism is justifiable.

Oz has six States, each of which has its own constitution and legal jurisdiction that cannot be overridden by that of the Commonwealth formed when the colonies federated in 1901. They control their domestic legal arrangements, although this government (formed by a coalition of "Liberal" - read "Conservative" - and "National" - read "rednecked" - parties) has eroded states rights on labour laws because all the States are currently governed by the Labor party. There are several Territories that, while they may have separate legal jurisdictions (like the Northern Territory and the Aust. Capital Territory) are not "States" and are thus under the ultimate control of the Commonwealth.

The Prime Minister has "invaded" the legislative control of the NT, basically, because he can. He cannot even contemplate such control in the States unless he wishes to control their purse strings and he has shown signs of wanting to do just that. The emotive issue of children being exposed to paedophilia and pornography is just the sort of issue that this consummate wedge politician would welcome to split the formal "Opposition" and his opponents into disarray. Especially in the leadup to an election, where all the main issues at the front of people's minds are negative for him and his government.

John Howard was brought up in the conformist, vaguely Methodist and suburban, environment of the 1950s and still hankers for the supposed verities that his upbringing taught him. He lived with his parents until he was 32 and has never lived a life independent of a supportive but subordinate woman with the same outlook. He has the nickname (what irony) of Honest John and there's only one way an Oz politician could earn such a soubriquet. I'd trust him as far as I could kick him, and he's bigger than me.

Until the postwar flood of refugees and migrants, Oz was backward in its appreciation of diversity and as comfortably racist as anywhere in America's deep south. There was no effective opposition to this until the mid60s, when the civil rights and women's movements got going, pushed hard by antagonism to conscription and Australia's involvement in what came to be known as the Vietnam war. Even until the 1970s, Aboriginal and mixed race (ie even the faintest trace of Aboriginal ancestry) children were removed by govt edict from their families and incarcerated in "homes", trained to be domestic servants and labourers for white people and abused both physically and sexually by those with a "duty of care".

Several Royal (and other) Commissions have investigated and reported savagely on 'Aboriginal Deaths in Custody', 'The Stolen Generation' and similar discriminations against Australia's Indigenous people. Routinely their findings and recommendations have been shelved and ignored. Supported by the outrage of the shock jocks when the Stolen Generations report recommended action, our Prime Minister refused to say "Sorry" and became extremely (and publicly) angry at the Aboriginal response to his subsequent appearance at one formal function; when he came to the podium to speak, they rose as one and stood, in dead silence, with their backs to him until he'd finished. As an effective protest, it had much to recommend it and I commend it to you.

He and his Health Minister Abbott and his Treasurer Costello (the jokes are already there) have no interest in the long term interests of the dispossessed and disaffected; they gutted what they could from the Native Title legislation when in Opposition and this latest move will gut it even further.

With all honesty I can't use my usual signoff ("Cheers, Rowan") on this occasion.

Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 09:53 PM

Thank you, Rowan.

What a terrible situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 10:51 PM

Rowan did a reasonable summary... an important but highly relevant omisson though...

In addition, there was recently a 'mating of elephants¹' proceedure over the unwillingnes of the Qld Dept of Public Prosecutions to charge a Policeman who had the unfortunate luck to have a member of a particular ethnic group - different from his opwn - die while in Police Custody - the Offical Spokesman of the Police Union was even charged with Contempt of Court (but had no conviction recorded! - is THAT special treatment or what?!!) over his public comments on his belief that the Coroner was biased against the Police!

After a big fuss where a retired judge from another state recommended that the Officer be charged, the trial recently found him not guilty of murder/manslaughter/assault. The 'victim' had been hit so hard that his liver was severed in two - allegedly caused by the policeman falling on the drunk while struggling with him in the cells...


¹ Done at a high level, with lots of loud noise and much trampling of whatever is underfoot - including Civil Rights, etc

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: Jim Lad
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 12:41 AM

"Until the postwar flood of refugees and migrants, Oz was backward in its appreciation of diversity and as comfortably racist as anywhere in America's deep south. There was no effective opposition to this until the mid60s"

Not so, my friend. Not even close. I spent 4 years in Australia, during the seventies and you had a long, long way to go with regards to accepting other nationalities. While I do recognize a more liberal shift, as demonstrated by most Australian Mudcatters I can only wonder how the rest of the country is today. Your isolation is probably your biggest enemy in this regard.
As for Mr Howard; From all that I've seen, he strikes me as being an honest, sincere bloke who is doing the best that he can for his country.
He is however, the product of the very era that you described and though well meaning, is probably discovering the error of his ways as we speak and will, in all likelihood, change his course.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 03:37 AM

Jim Lad,

An Honest Fool is STILL a Fool

... and I should know... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 10:08 AM

He is however, the product of the very era that you described and though well meaning, is probably discovering the error of his ways as we speak and will, in all likelihood, change his course.

sarcasm?

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: Jim Lad
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 12:06 PM

Not at all, Sandra: I believe that behind the uneducated, arrogant reaction by Prime Minister Howard there is at least a desire to help.
This "Knee Jerk" reaction on his part is a direct result of a lack of insight on the part of himself and his advisers. How could they overlook the rights of their own people had they not been brought up in an era when Aboriginals were not considered such?
I firmly believe that with the exception of the United States, aspiring leaders do have the desire to do what's right by their fellow citizens.
I do think that he is smart enough to learn and to repair the damage.
So, Sarcasm? No. Optimism, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)
From: Rowan
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 06:59 PM

When I wrote "There was no effective opposition to this [comfortable racism] until the mid60s" I was trying to explain that, while there had been some opposition prior to the 60s it wasn't taken up widely in the Australian 'mood'. I certainly wasn't trying to say that the battle against racism in Australia had been won; it most certainly hasn't. The most recent example in my circle was the girl at my daughter's school only a couple of weeks ago. She is one of the local stars in the netball competition and, when players were being chosen to form a squad to represent the Tablelands in the wider school-level competition she was rejected (by teachers from schools outside our particular community), apparently with the comment "Oh, she wouldn't be able to fit in!" Racism is now, usually, more covert.

To return to Jim's comment "aspiring leaders do have the desire to do what's right by their fellow citizens. I do think that he [John Howard] is smart enough to learn and to repair the damage.

We Live In Hope. Hope, I've discovered is a rather crowded place, full of bemused people. I don't regard Howard as a fool, as he has shown himself to be far too clever as a politician. He is almost the archetype for the phrase, common in Australia, "It doesn't matter who you vote for, it's always a politician that gets in!"

Except for his disciples Howard's record inspires distrust and cynicism. I'm certain he regards himself as a morally upright and exemplary citizen and he probably thinks the same about Philip Ruddock and Amanda Vanstone. I regard him as politically astute and morally flawed (aren't we all?) and, while he has firm control of power, I'd have to acknowledge that he circumscribes what I can do. That doesn't stop me from working with all my effort to replace him with another. Will the replacement be any better? Only if we can create an effective change in the Australian 'mood' so that Howard's replacement 'cannot go there'.

The only effective method of doing this In Oz at the moment is to ensure the Senate acts properly as a House of Review instead of a rubber stamp. Meanwhile the next six months are going to be difficult for us all.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 08:42 PM

Rowan-

My thanks as well to you for your patient attempt to provide an overview of Australia's evolving policy with regard to Aboriginal/native population.

And thank you, hildafish, as well.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)
From: Ythanside
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 10:38 PM

Australia is, in my opinion, the most beautiful place on the planet. Solo travels around four States and both Territories reinforced my belief that I ought to have moved there while young enough to fulfil the immigration requirements.
I saw only two flaws in what was otherwise a paradise. Firstly, the carnage on outback roads where each morning I would see dozens of dead and dying kangaroos, possums and other marsupials that had been hit by night-time traffic.
Secondly, and even more distressing, was the widespread racism openly and unashamedly directed at Aborigine people by otherwise reasonable and level-headed white Australians in cities and outback towns alike.
Despite being highly conscious of my visitor status I had to voice my opinions whenever the 'blackfellah problem' (a common subject during bar-room discussions) was raised. The responses ranged from 'you have to live here to know how bad they are', or 'you're just a f***ing tourist, you don't know your arse from a hole in the ground' to offers to 'settle things outside'.
In Darwin there was a spate of 'Abo-bashing' where white youths would drive around at night until they found Aboriginal people asleep and then beat them with clubs. How horrifying is THAT in a civilised country in the 21st century?
Neither the many decent white people I met nor the Aborigines I spent time with hold out a great deal of hope for improvement in race relations in the near future. I hope they are proved wrong, but with Honest John Get Re-elected Howard at the helm, well.....

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: Jim Lad
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 12:11 AM

Well written, Rowan: We may be kindred spirits in some sense of the word.
As for the politics. If memory serves me, Mr Howard is running a Coalition Government. I used to be died in the wool Labour (Democrat) but have since learned to go with the flow. If the party in power runs a reasonable show, I'm happy. I think I see more clearly now that I've dropped the whole "Party Loyalty" thing.
Here's hoping for the future and thanks to all of you who manage to discuss such issues without taking offence.
Cheers!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 01:09 AM

It's easier to go with the flow when you're a member of a group which isn't being victimized.

And folks can disagree on what is and is not a "reasonable show".

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: Jim Lad
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 02:36 AM

Not all victims are African American or Aboriginal & once in a while it's just fine to be happy whether one is a victim or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)
From: Stu
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 06:17 AM

I have to say, I was chatting with a Australian colleague some years ago and was deeply shocked when she started talking about the Aborigines (she called them 'the blacks'). I couldn't believe the utter contempt they were held in by what I always thought of as a reasonable, intelligent person.

This person believed the Aborigines were beyond any salvation, not worth the time of day or any attempt to empathise with their plight.

The only conclusion I drew from this is racism must be so deeply entrenched in Australian society people don't even know they're doing it, which is frightening.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 06:29 AM

Jim Lad,

Both parts of the statement you made in your 27 Jun 07 - 02:36 AM post are true.

However, neither of those two points [nor both of them put together] negate what I said in my 27 Jun 07 - 01:09 AM post.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 06:50 AM

"racism must be so deeply entrenched in Australian society"

In SOME parts.


Jim Lad, in Australia, the Democrats were what was left after the Liberals - led by Johnny and his cohorts - went so far to the Right that those left looked Left... :-) And they said "since there's more of us than you we're taking the name 'Liberal' with us"...

The National (previously called Country) Party (in Coalition Government with The Liberal Party) is the most Right of the 'Conservative' parties... :-)

And then there is Pauline Hanson, who sorta makes the KKK look Left Wing Commo... :-)

I really should mention the Family First Party - who have a member in The Senate - and almost held the balance of power... but I'm not going to...

I really suspect the whole thing is about trying to reverse the Mabo Decision...

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 09:29 AM

check out the cartoon for 26th June

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: Jim Lad
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 12:16 PM

Azizi: The victims in this case, are children. I'll allow for a bit of stupidity on the part of those who wish to protect them just as long as they learn from their mistakes and their intent is good. It's a steep learning curve and a little forgiveness along the way, is much more productive than becoming embroiled in a racial argument. Remember the kids.

Foolestroupe: I am aware that Mr Howard is regarded as being a "Conservative/Liberal" by most. Sometimes I surprise myself with what I know about foreign affairs but the "Mabo Decision"? You'll have to help me with that one. Please & Thank you.
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 06:48 PM

Jim Lad, your comments have not addressed the statements that I made in my 27 Jun 07 - 01:09 AM post to this thread.

And I'm not sure what you meant by "becoming embroiled in a racial arguments". Who is becoming embroiled in a racial argument? Me? I don't think so. I've stated my views, and haven't raised my voice in argument.

Are you saying that indigenous people are arguing just because they differ with Australian Prime Minister Howard's mandates from which treats them as children by failing to consult with them about what is best for their communities? Are you saying that they have no right to question his motives? If representatives of those communities disagree with Howard and let that be known, because they are of a differnt race than Howard, does that necessarily mean that they are "embroiling "themselves in "racial arguments"?

I don't think so.

As to your comment about Australian Prime Minister John Howard using "remembering the children" electioneering to sway votes,
I stand by the 21 Jun 07 - 06:30 PM comments that I made about this plans as they were reported in this thread and in Internet articles.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 07:12 PM

Correction.

Jim Lad, you didn't say that Howard was using "remember the children" electioneering to sway votes. I and others who posted to this thread said that.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)
From: Rowan
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 08:14 PM

The Mabo decision; a summary.

Although "Capt. Cook discovered Australia" is still understood by many to be incontrovertable fact there is firm evidence that ancestors of what we now call Aboriginal people got here more than 40,000 years ago; depending on which archaeological evidence you reckon stand up it can be anything up to 80,000 years bp. If you ask Aboriginal people they'll tell you they've always been here and, existentially, their argument carries weight. Cook never claimed that the Aboriginal people were not the possessors of the land they occupied but subsequent colonisers claimed that New Holland and (later) Australia were "Terra nullius" meaning that the land belonged, legally, to nobody (individually or collectively) until it was occupied by the British Crown, which then applied British concepts of land title. These all effectively dispossessed Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders (the forgotten group in much of all this). Aborigines were controlled by the Crown (like the wildlife is still, today) and often restricted to Reserves similar to what Americans would know as Reservations.

Eddie Mabo, in 1973, took the Queensland State govt led by Bjelke-Peterson to court claiming that he, as one of his ethnic group (the notion of "tribe" is a European term originally from their understanding of African social organisation and then applied willy nilly to American native groups and leter, even less appropriately, to Australian indigenous peoples) technically "owned" a patch of land on the coast of North Queensland. The patch of land had boundary markers that predated white settlement and there was a continuous history, acknowledged by Eddie's community, of 'maintenance of tenure' of the land.

The case was thrown out in Queesnland but went to the Full Bench of the High Court (equivalent to America's Supreme Court and Britain's Privy Council) and, in 1983, the High Court found in favour of Eddie Mabo. Hence the term "Mabo Decision), that Australia was not and never had been "Terra nullius" and that Aboriginal people had had legitimate tenure and title to their lands. To give modern legal effect to the decision the Labor govt of the Commonwealth introduced the Native Title legislation, which I referred to above as having been effectively gutted (while a Bill) by the Opposition.

I hope this summary is helpful; others with more intimate appreciations should feel free to correct me.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)
From: Rowan
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 08:40 PM

To both Ythanside and Stigweard: Your experiences are all too common unfortunately. Like the US, Oz covers a lot of landscape and there are many in the Top End or elsewhere back o' Bourke who seek to justify their baser behaviour by implying "You're a southerner/visitor/ etc (read "ignorant") so go away and let us do what we've always done!" And some of the things you can be esposed to make you weep with frustration at the complexity of working through it all. The causes and examples of racism are blatant when there is a large and visible ethnic minority and a large group of disaffected whites only one rung further up the ladder and wanting to ensure there is someone below them.

The causes and examples of racism are more covert amongst the genteel and better off, especially if they don't see many people from the ethnic minority in their daily routines. Publicly they'll denounce racism but, among friends, truth will out. Pauline Hanson was originally a Queensland candidate for the Liberal Party but was disowned by John Howard when her (genteel?) racism became too public to ignore. He then thought to disarm her by implementing (perhaps more subtly) the gist of her policies. At one stage an interviewer suggested she was xenophobic (Asians copped almost as much flack from Pauline Hanson as Aborigines) and her ony response was, famously, "Please explain!" She went further to the right and gained a huge following to her "One Notion" Party from the disaffected National Party members. She's now history but her followers are back in the National Party, in Coalition with the Liberal Party.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)
From: Ythanside
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 09:57 PM

Rowan, what did make me weep, literally, were the countless stories of inhumane treatment of Aboriginals and mixed-race Australians by their fellow countrymen. Some incidents that I witnessed were all the more shocking because of their casual, disinterested nature so reminiscent of apartheid South Africa. The most common view I encountered amongst Aboriginals and enlightened European-Australians was that this deplorable situation could not be improved without a sea change in the political will of the government, and none of them judged that to be a likely development in the forseeable future. It is to be hoped that this neccessary change occurs before the inevitable backlash from the disenfranchised, disenchanted and justifiably angry younger generation hits the fan.   

Ythanside

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 10:18 PM

Actually "Our Pauline", as she is affectionately known by her hard (headed!) core followers is running as an Independent for the Senate in thw next ELection...

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 10:22 PM

Thanks, Rowan, and everyone else who lives there and/or has visited, for the education. I am following this thread with much interest. I wonder if an "anti apartheid" movement, i.e. boycotting tourism in Australia, etc., would have any effect?

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: Jim Lad
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 10:32 PM

Thanks Rowan: I had heard something of this case in the context that, gutted or not, it assisted Aboriginals in land claim issues to a point where they are now light years ahead of Canadians. I'm sure you'll tell me if I'm wrong.

Azizi: You have me completely befuddled. I cannot make sense of your last two submissions. I have addressed the one you mentioned and I have no idea what point it is that you are trying to make. We are both on the same side and you seem to have some difficulty with that.
I would suggest to you that you are in danger of becoming what you so detest in others.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)
From: Azizi
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 05:49 AM

Jim Lad,

Here's a new African proverb:

"Saying so don't make it so."

And that's all I'm gonna say on this thread about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 07:45 AM

Aboriginal Health organisation welcomes news health checks not compulsory

latest cartoon - Little Johnny brings in the army According to news reports this morning, the advance party of troops that arrived were sympathetic & helpful, but why spoil a good idea for a cartoon (cartoonists love showing Little Johnny with tall Defence personnel)

The next stolen generation?
Professor Margaret Alston is director of the Centre for Rural Social Research at Charles Sturt University at Wagga Wagga, see the feedback from readers at the end of her article.

Long-term Indigenous education campaign planned by QLD & NT govt.s

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: Jim Lad
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 11:26 AM

Azizi: You have me completely bewildered.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)
From: Rowan
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 07:17 PM

Katlaughing raised the question of "action" by why I inferred "international" action might be contemplated. It's a natural and understandable response but, if foreigners stayed away in droves, there'd be so much less shining of international arclighting on the situation and we all know what happens in the dark out of reach of the spotlights. Personally, I'd advocate that everyone of goodwill came and had a look, chose who they spent their money with to do so, engaged with both the activists and the passive accepters and then spruiked the products of their mature considerations.

I suspect many from the northern hemisphere have a (necessarily) limited understanding of scale (distances, variety etc) that apply in Oz; quite a few Australians do too. Eddie Mabo died after the High Court had retired to consider its judgement but before that judgement was handed down. His community raised a fine headstone on his grave, memorialising his achievement. In less than a month it was savagely desecrated by the yobs of Townsville, resulting in an outcry around the country. In the last month a major memorial to him has been raised in the centre of Townsville, so some things have changed.

After the Mabo Decision the then Prime Minister engaged in discussions about the possibility of a Treaty; because Australia had always been considered to be Terra nullius, there could never have been a Treaty between the colonisers and the colonised in the way they had bee established in NZ, Canada or the US of A, even though these were routinely ignored whenever the colonisers wanted. I think nobody had informed the Prime Minister that there was no such thing as an Aboriginal Nation with whom to treaty. Even now, you'll hear Australians say things like "coolamon" is the Aboriginal word for a bowl carved out of a branch. That's a bit like saying "table" is the European word for the thing you sit at to eat a meal.

There were at least 250 separate Aboriginal language groups in Australia and you could argue that several had many aspects of stature associated with what we might call nations. Even now the variety among Aboriginal groups is enormous, from the very urban Koori groups in SE Oz (Redfern in Sydney is currently having problems with the State govt but the Melbourne Koories seem not to have such problems) through the settled rural SE Oz (the Victorian Koories have some major problems of acceptance but the racism towards the NSW Koories in the Western Division seems more prevasive. And then you've got almost traditional arrangements in the northern half of South Australia and all through the Top End (WA, NT and Qld); even there the variety can boggle the mind.

I've just plucked a trivial example out of the air. Among other things I'm an archaeologist and there is a special (and specially strained, sometimes) relationship between Australia's Indigenous people and archaeologists so I wouldn't wish you to think my view was necessarily "better" than others'. But I'm also an ecologist and the botanists around me have learned to expect a vigourous rebuke if I hear them use "natural" instead of "endemic" or even "native" to describe vegetation that hasn't been modified by those of us with nonIndigenous ancestry. Come and see it all for yourselves and then take the actions you consider appropriate and effective.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)
From: GUEST,John O'L
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 01:54 AM

On the news last night I watched the army trucks rolling into outback villages to begin God-knows-what for the sake of Howard's re-election.

For eleven years it has been impossible for the Howard government to get doctors or teachers into the outback, but for the sake of an "Aboriginal Children Overboard" yarn to be cranked up just before an election, it's a simple matter to get the army out there.

It's times like these I'm ashamed to be Australian.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 03:11 AM

Watched this on TV.

'Johnny's Newbies' wandered in, and spoke many fine flowery words of greeting to 'the locals' in front of the Press.

They then told the Press to bugger off as they wished to 'talk seriously to the locals'.

The locals expressed the opinion that THEY didn't think that 'Johnny's Newbies' COULD say anything to the locals that THEY would not be comfortable with the Press hearing!

After 'Johnny's Newbies' had wandered off to the next camp, the locals expressed great puzzlement - they said that they thought that 'Johnny's Newbies' were coming to speak to them 'with all the answers', but all they did was ask the locals 'what they wanted'....

:-)

I'm not making this up you know!

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)
From: freda underhill
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 03:52 AM

from the ABC (the Oz one)

Federal Labor leader Kevin Rudd has questioned whether the Government has changed its plans for the takeover of Indigenous land in the Northern Territory. The Federal Government originally said it would takeover about 60 townships for five years and pay appropriate compensation for doing so. But earlier today, Prime Minister John Howard would not give a guarantee it would be five years, or that the Indigenous communities would ever get their land back.

The Federal Government has taken control of about 60 Indigenous communities in the Northern Territory in an effort to stem child abuse. Mr Howard says the Government is not taking land from traditional owners, but rather is trying to give something back to the community.

"We are leasing the land for five years, then it goes back," he said.

"If there is any disturbance of title in that, there will be compensation paid.

"There are people trawling around to find a fault."

Mr Rudd says he wants to know what the Government's intentions are.

"Mr Howard has already outlined a proposal and as I recall it, [Minister for Indigenous Affairs, Mal] Brough's briefing to us was for a five-year limit," he said. "It would be interesting in the extreme if the Prime Minister's proposing to go beyond that."
............

This is a land grab.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 09:44 AM

ABC article quoted by freda

Rudd questions Govt's Indigenous land plans

Kalumburu community leader rejects federal approach to child abuse

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 10:15 AM

The Kalumburu community was allegedly the one where mothers were taking their children and heading for the hills before Johnyy's Newbies arrived - no, I'm not making this up, there are real sand hills just outside of town, or going walkabout - but apparently that was just Media Hype - in other words, just BS...

I do believe that is the one where about 2 years ago Little Fascist Johnny sacked the Imdigenous Council allegedly because of corruption and put in an Adminsitrator. Well, there is a report apparently about due to come out which shows that the Adminstrator just locked all the assets up so they couldn't be used, and all the funds were frozen so that the community couldn;t access either, and has done nothing else but write reports.

The local small bus is chained behind a fence so that the kids can't be driven anywhere, the workshop is locked up so that the local vehicles can't be repaired, etc, you name it - the community has been right royally f*cked over - (but the poor black bastards living there haven't died off yet¹) - so now Little Fascist Johnny drags this bit of BS out of the woodwork - why am I not surprised?.... :-P

¹ If you really know the history of the racial interactions, you will knnow that I am not racist, but cynicaly historically factual...

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 10:19 AM

Rowan, thanks for answering my question. It is very complex, as you pointed out. I would visit if I had the money to, believe me.

Thanks, also to hilda and Sandra for the continued education and reading. While I'd prefer there not be these atrocities to write and read about, I am most grateful for the insights from folks in the middle of it and NOT just the news agencies.

Last night, I watched the movie, Gandhi. It occurred to me, the world needs another like him.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: Jim Lad
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 02:17 PM

Thanks Sandra. Those were excellent links. I am seriously puzzled here though by some of what is going on. The first two reports were about the usual, predictable, Governmental, in fighting "How do I gain political ground on this" kind of nonsense & the third a report on Ms Leonie (Slightly off the wall) Cameron, Community leader. Also on the attack. What I do not see is an honest "Let's put our heads together and see what we can do to protect the kids" kind of approach from anyone. This is far more important than any racial issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 07:24 PM

What I do not see is an honest "Let's put our heads together and see what we can do to protect the kids" kind of approach from anyone. This is far more important than any racial issue.
=================

probably too hard - we (= They) are are in the middle of a nasty political fight, & being nice is probably impossible. Apparently the Opposition leader is (was?) a good mate of one of the Govt Ministers but you wouldn't think so after hearing the Minister speaking about the Opposition leader. Apparently there are friendships between individual people on both sides, but I wonder if they will last - I also wonder at times if they choreograph these verbal fights!

In recent times we have had lotsa' stories about what THEY (ie the enemy who wants to stay in power/take power) did/said - she did this, he did that, no I didn't, yes you did, you're all liars, no we're not - it's you who are liars ....

Parliament often reminds me of playground arguments & I usually turn off whenever news programs offer snippets showing what's happening.

sandra

strangely enough it's getting hard to find stories! We have more floods - in Victoria, this time, & the grounded ship in Newcastle is taking many headlines as salvage experts try to shift it (cables breaking ...) & now explosive filled cars are found in London (I assume someone is creating a thread as I type?)

the latest story on ABC News, also check out the video & audio links on the page


front page of Sydney's broadsheet - scroll way down to Opinion for Mike Carlton's
Histrionics up north as moral compass veers south, the only mention of this story. It's an excellent overview of the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: Jim Lad
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 02:21 AM

"Histrionics up north as moral compass veers south": That one pretty well lost credibility when the writer spent the first paragraph belittling Mr Howard.
Still not one positive suggestion from anyone. Only the political in fighting.
Interestingly enough. This situation and the Government initial reaction to it, was reported a day or so later in the local news here in BC. Not one comment about the legality of those measures though. Seems no-one here considered it an infringement on peoples' rights.
My guess: Watch for a rise in tourism next year. I kid you not.
Thanks for the links, Sandra.
Regards
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)
From: GUEST,John O'L
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 03:26 AM

Jim Lad the solution is so obvious it doesn't need to be stated. The expense of education in remote areas is weighed against its benefit and until it is found to be more beneficial than expensive we will continue to have social disintergration in remote areas.

As has been stated above however, this is not about solutions, this is about an upcoming election.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 05:05 AM

Just one more note from the movie: Gandhi said, "Poverty is the worst form of violence." While I know there can be worse physical violence, it seems to me poverty is the ultimate violence which a society can perpetrate against large portions of its population.

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 06:29 AM

Howard has found his next wedge issue - and by taking over Aboriginal lands has basically declared martial law in parts of australia I'm waiting for an election to be called in the next coupla weeks..

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 09:58 AM

Well, Freda - I feel that he would definitely have won last November. I'm sure that there is something (an inportant stage strutting opportunity!) coming up just before November that Johnny wants to still be the Incumbent in Office (not in Caretaker mode, either!) for - :-) - which is why I think that he will wait till the last minute.... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)
From: Muttley
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 09:51 PM

I was unaware of this thread until directed here by Katlaughing - Hilda, for what it is worth, there is at least one 'WhiteFella' weeping with you.

As I wrote in another thread, I am proud to have known many Aboriginals in my life - and yes SOME of them have come from very decrepit and slum-condition communities. More than a few were the products of the Stolen Generation. I was even honoured to be called by an Aboriginal name by one of them. It was at Teacher's College and (to other white guys disgust) I loved hanging out with the eight Indigenes who were there with us on scholarships. At first it was curiosity about them (I'd never met an Aboriginal before this) and it quickly grew to friendship. Rob Kantilla was a kind of leader among them (the only full-blood and not a 'Stolen Child') and after about three months he began referring to me as 'Djambi' (at least I think that was the word - it sounds right these many years passed) I asked him what it meant because I thought he was 'having a go at me / making fun of me / giving me a comic nick-name, or some such thing. He told me it was a word that meant 'brother/friend' but it didn't quite mean a 'blood' kin while it also meant a LOT more than simply 'friend'. I asked him why he called me that and he said simply "because you are one of us. You don't treat us any different, you don't talk down to us, you don't patronise us, if you think we've said something wrong you tell us and don't care if we like that assessment or not. You act with us as if we were all the same colour and I am proud to call you brother"

It was the first time I ever recall crying due to a compliment.

Hilda has raised some really good points:

I was horrified when Howard made his comments and hoped against hope he was simply "tossing political hay" until the army and police vehicles rolled in and there were reports that elders were hiding children because they feared a return of a 'Stolen Generation' situation: rightly since the Western Australian Govt minister has just sent in Non-Aboriginal Social Workers, Doctors, Psychologists to a community with the threat "Any children found at risk will be taken" - did the WA Govt learn NOTHING from the 'Stolen Generations' lessons - - - obviously not. And they can get away with it because we white fellers are quite content to sit on our collective apathy and say nothing - there IS an intrinsic Racial prejudice there and I am ashamed of it.
Ely Weissel once replied to a fellow Auschwitz internee who asked him why they were in such a position, why had God abandoned His people to suffer like this. "Where, in all this inhumanity, is God?" asked his fellow inmate. Ely's reply was simply: "No! The question is 'Where in all this inhumanity is MAN'?"
His words echo today - where is man in this latest injustice?
Are we as a people preopared to sit back and alow another generation to be taken?

Yes there are those deplorable activities - drunkenness, pornography, child abuse etc; in Aboriginal Communities - but they also exist in suburban, rural, farming, city populations of WHITE AUSTRALIA. Is the government and John Howard going to 'send in the troops' to "protect the children" there???? Of course not.

Hilda raises a relevant point: regards the slovenly appearance of these communities - why? she gives several - money awarded but the communities not made aware, monies available but communities not advised how to access it - and so on and the monies simply rebound into the government coffers unused and unaccessed or accessible!

I went on a trip to Alice Springs in 2002 and travelled the Mereenie Loop to visit Hermannsburg as well as other sites: We had to first obtain a permit to travel the loop and then we were questioned as to WHY we wanted to travel it and then our car was checked to make certain we had no alcohol or other contraband with us - I was too scared to even fill a drum with petrol in case we ran out - and we only JUST made it back to the Alice on fumes.
I was disappointed that a place like Hermannsburg could be so decrepit - until I understand via Hilda's explanations as to WHY - they simply cannot access what is required.

We must also look at another side of things - yes there are "suspect" communities out there - - - BUT there are also a grat many (and an increasing number) of communities out there which have stamped out the drug/petrol sniffing/alcohol/abuses problems entirely. How have they done it - by returning to tribal standards, by reverting to 'Elder Rule' in the traditional manner and by taking back ownership of themselves. If Howard wants to be genuine - have him send advisors from the Aboriginal Communities that HAVE cleaned up their act to those struggling to do so. We cannot fix their problems for them - we are not their culture. We need to facilitate in tandem with their own elders, the chance to address their own issues in ways RELEVANT to them that will work for them. The communities that have done so thus far have done so by using their own culture to achieve that success.

John Howards 'Jack-boots and all" approach is simply an attempt (a pathetic attempt) to win unthinking white folk to his forum - folk who don't want to think or are too lazy to do so. He picks on a problem, offers a red-necked, unthinking "solution" to win votes and then does what - allows the removal of permits to travel into 'Aboriginal Lands'. Thus opening the way for illicit products to find their way back into areas cleansed of them.

I guess I've ranted enough: but I am certain that if I were to rant in front of them in this manner, 'Aunty Dot', Banjo Clarke and Rob Kantilla - along with a lot of other past Aboriginal mates would be standing behind me nodding their agreement.

Keep fighting Hilda - there are a lot of White Australians out there who will stand behind you and nod support - and I think a great many more who will see the 'grandstanding' of the current Prime Minister as just that - political grandstanding at its prejudicial worst!

Muttley

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 10:44 PM

So much has been going on in the past few weeks, tho not so much has been in the news as newer stuff takes over the media attention. front page of today's Sydney Morning Herald

Back to topic -

I just loooove the bit that (indigenous) parents on welfare will have some of their payments quarantined to buy necessities for their children.

The Govt must have realised this policy was a bit suspect, so it is now extending to everyone on welfare, but what about the parent who are NOT on welfare & neglect their children? Parent on welfare = bad parent, parent earning income = good parent?

Latest yuk factor is Howard is on YouTube saying how good the Govt is on green stuff & climate change. Scroll down the Herald page & you can see him (listening to a snippet on the radio news a minute ago was enough for me, I don't want to watch)

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Austral
From: sneeble
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 11:09 PM

One thing that always struck me about Aussie racism is culturally based violence. There is this forgone conclusion that aborigines are a lower species and this is constantly reinforced by society. One thing that makes it worse is the amount of kiwis who leave New Zealand looking for a better life, only to discover more kiwis and an opportunity to vent their frustrations and sometimes hatred against the indigenous people because of the race-hate they have endured previously. A theme that people always come back with from Australia to New Zealand is that every Aborigine is given a house and a car, they run the car to the ground, tear the house down to build fires and then walk away usually drunk. Given the level of race bashing, both physical and emotional but the community I can understand why there is such a level of despair. Any culture, persons or person would quickly crumble under the negativity and abuse these people are exposed to every single day of their lives.