BS: Rudy, Romney: Draft Choices

Subject: BS: Rudy, Romney: Draft Choices
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Jul 07 - 12:20 PM

Everybody knows John McCain knows what war is about. Do the other leading Republican candidates for president? They are certainly bellicose enough in current statements to make their stance clear on what the US should do now.   And in 2004, they enthusiastically trashed John Kerry's military record.

Well, let's see how they handled their own personal choices on fighting in the Vietnam War.

Per Salon: 20 July 2007

Guiliani:

Reached his 20's during the Vietnam War. At Manhattan College, then NYU Law School, he qualified for a student deferment. However, in 1968 he graduated, and his draft status changed to A-1. At that time he won a clerkship with Federal Judge Lloyd McMahon. So he quickly applied for another deferment based on his judicial clerkship. Selective Service denied the claim. So he convinced Judge McMahon to write to the draft board, asking for another deferment on grounds that he was an "essential" civilian employee. It worked. He got the deferment. In 1969, with the new lottery system, Rudy drew a high number.


Romney:

Student deferment also. But he left Stanford after 2 semesters, in 1966. Mormons in each state could select a limited number of young men to be missionaries. Romney's father was governor of Michigan at the time--no one knows if this had any influence. Between July 1966 and February 1969, Mitt was not enrolled in school. But the Mormons in Michigan selected him to be a missionary. He told the Boston Globe "I longed in many respects to actually be in Vietnam.." But instead he was a missionary--in France.

Subject: RE: BS: Rudy, Romney: Draft Choices
From: pdq
Date: 22 Jul 07 - 12:35 PM

Straight from the Democratic National Commitee headquarters. The great DNC slime machine aims its sight at the two most respected candidates for the 2008 election. This mostly shows who the Clinton and Kennedy machines are afraid of.

Can't wait to see what they do to Fred Thompson when he announces.

As far as I was concerned, John F. Kerry's military record was just fine and had no relevence to the job he was seeking. He should not have made it 'topic 1' in his acceptance speach. One of many examples of bad judjement in 2004 that cost him the election.

Subject: RE: BS: Rudy, Romney: Draft Choices
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jul 07 - 01:37 PM

" The great DNC slime machine", pdq? I fail to see how a truthful, dispassionate recounting is sliming them.

Giuliani is not the GOP's most respected candidate, of course. He has a life history and views that most of the party will not likely be able to swallow.

On the other hand, the religious right fell in love with Ronnie, notwithstanding his divorced status. So maybe.

Romney has other problems. Perhaps you are not aware of how the religous right feels about the heretical Mormon church.

Subject: RE: BS: Rudy, Romney: Draft Choices
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Jul 07 - 05:15 PM

pdq-


As Ebbie pointed out, these appear to be facts. If you have information--with source--contradicting this info on Romney and Giuliani, by all means volunteer it.

Otherwise your objection may possibly appear as whining. And I'm sure you wouldn't want that.

Perhaps it may have escaped your attention that there may be others outside the Democratic National Committee who might feel less enthusiasm than you for Mr. Giuliani and Mr. Romney.

As you may have noted, I specifically exempted McCain from any criticism on this score--which is more than the Bush attack dogs--including the above candidates-- did for Kerry.

As far as I'm concerned, when a man fights for his country, he cannot be attacked on grounds of insufficient patriotism. A lesson the Bush "team" never learned--or wanted to learn.

Conversely, when he does not fight for his country he has no business criticizing somebody who does. And if he avoided service, this is a totally legitimate--and in fact very germane--issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Rudy, Romney: Draft Choices
From: pdq
Date: 22 Jul 07 - 05:32 PM

Slime away, Ronbo.

The details of a man or womans military service are not indicators of a quality executive. 60% of our US presidents have been members of the National Guard, yet that is only deemed unacceptable for a few Republican such as Dan Quayle and G. W. Bush.

The only person to become president with an unacceptable military record was "Worthless Willie" Clinton, who had his records altered and tampered with several times by his political allies. That is what you get in a state with one party rule, which Arkansas had for over 100 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Rudy, Romney: Draft Choices
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 22 Jul 07 - 05:32 PM

Romney's biggest problem is that if he were to be elected, 300 million Americans would have to come to terms with having a president named after a baseball glove.

Personally, a candidate's Vietnam era history means absolutely nothing to me. Whether someone enlisted, got drafted, joined the National Guard, got a deferment, went to Canada, or went to jail makes no difference. There's nothing dishonorable about any of those choices. What was dishonorable was a senseless war that made the choices necessary in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Rudy, Romney: Draft Choices
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Jul 07 - 05:44 PM

Frankly, I always thought that W's draft-dodging may have been the most admirable facet of his career. It at least showed a modicum of intelligence.

Subject: RE: BS: Rudy, Romney: Draft Choices
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Jul 07 - 07:24 PM

Draft-dodging would be fine, except for the little element of hypocrisy which sometimes creeps in. Your sons and daughters should go fight and possibly die for the country--but I was an "essential employee". Or-- I had better things to do with my time--like win souls.

At least McCain has an definite idea of the kind of sacrifices war can require.

Subject: RE: BS: Rudy, Romney: Draft Choices
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jul 07 - 07:58 PM

Vietnam was a long time ago...

Vote fir the person who has the best ideas and abilitiy to get his or her ideas ennacted into law and...

..let Nam go...

It serves no purpose anymore now that Bush has demonstarted that some in our generation learned nuthin' from it...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Rudy, Romney: Draft Choices
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 22 Jul 07 - 08:41 PM

All you need to know.

http://www.awolbush.com/whoserved.html

Subject: RE: BS: Rudy, Romney: Draft Choices
From: pdq
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 11:57 AM

...from:

                         here



"The F-102 was a supersonic second generation fighter designed in the early 1950s for the US Air Force. The primary mission of the aircraft was to intercept columns of Soviet nuclear bombers attempting to reach targets in the US and destroy them with air-to-air missiles. The technologies incorporated into the aircraft were state-of-the-art for the day. The F-102 set many firsts, including the first all-weather delta-winged combat aircraft, the first fighter capable of maintaining supersonic speed in level flight, and the first interceptor to have an armament entirely of missiles. Among the many innovations incorporated into the design were the use of the area rule to reduce aerodynamic drag and an advanced electronic fire control system capable of guiding the aircraft to a target and automatically launching its missiles.

The F-102 made its first flight in 1953 and entered service with the Air Defense Command (ADC) in 1956. About 1,000 Delta Daggers were built making the type one of the most widely built fighters of its era. Even when supplemented by the related and improved F-106 Delta Dart, the F-102 remained one of the most important aircraft in the ADC through the mid-1960s. At its peak, the Deuce made up over half of the interceptors operated by the ADC and equipped 32 squadrons across the continental US. Additional squadrons were based in western Europe, the Pacific, and Alaska.

As the 1960s continued, many of these aircraft were transferred from the US Air Force to Air National Guard (ANG) units. More than 500 Delta Daggers would eventually serve with 23 ANG units across the US, including squadrons in Arizona, California, Connecticut, Florida, Hawaii, Idaho, Louisiana, Maine, Minnesota, Montana, New York, North Dakota, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Vermont, Washington, and Wisconsin. Because of thier critical role in defending North America, these ANG units came under direct authority of the ADC itself and were considered a vital component of the Air Force's strategy to defend the US.

One of the primary ANG units to receive the F-102 was the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron (FIS) at Ellington Air National Guard Station, which operated the aircraft from 1960 through 1974. These planes were given responsibility for patrolling the Texas Gulf Coast and intercepting Soviet aircraft based in Cuba that regularly flew off the US shore to test American defenses. The 111th was and still is part of the 147th Fighter Wing in Houston, Texas. It was here that George W. Bush was stationed following his enlistment in May 1968.

      {break}

...even under peacetime conditions given the inherent risk to a pilot's life during any flight aboard a high-performance military jet. ANG members of the period who we've been able to locate indicate that only highly qualified pilot candidates were accepted for Delta Dagger training because it was such a challenging aircraft to fly and left little room for mistakes. According to the Air Force Safety Center, the lifetime Class A accident rate for the F-102 was 13.69 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours...the rate was especially high..."


Note: When George W. Bush joined the Air National Guard, his unit had 52 openings. No favoritism was involved, as anyone could have joined. He was also called a "gifted pilot" by his commanding officer.

Note: One's military service is not always a good indicator of executive ability.

Subject: RE: BS: Rudy, Romney: Draft Choices
From: John Hardly
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 12:03 PM

I'm suffering from 'R' fatigue.

Subject: RE: BS: Rudy, Romney: Draft Choices
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 01:38 PM

Of course John would be suffering from 'R' fatigue. He's recovering from having spent five days at the Ann 'R'-bor art fairs.

Subject: RE: BS: Rudy, Romney: Draft Choices
From: John Hardly
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 06:19 PM

got that right. Good show, though.