BS: RV Generators!

Subject: BS: RV Generators!
From: Bee
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 11:54 AM

We weren't able to travel as far as Ormstown this past weekend, but my husband surprised me by taking me to the 36th Annual Nova Scotia Bluegrass Festival, where we heard some great music and generally enjoyed ourselves. BUT I've just sent the following rant, building for years, to the NSBAssn. BoD:

"I understand that people, having purchased RVs with luxurious options like air conditioning and hot showers, like to be able to use them. Unfortunately, their luxury becomes other people's irritation. Our personal enjoyment of our campsite was destroyed by the owner of a nearby RV, who chose to run his external generator continually from early Saturday morning until after 1 a.m. Sunday morning, at which point I asked security personnel to deal with the situation, which they did. The RV owner then waited until the wee hours of the morning, turned his generator on again, and it was still running when we left at 9:30 Sunday morning. This generator was so loud that I was unable to play my guitar at my campsite, since I couldn't even hear it myself over the noise. At night, we were unable to enjoy hearing the river, or the late night musicians nearby. It was very frustrating.

As we walked around the festival site listening to the many excellent jams, we noticed several locations were so inundated by generator noise that the musicians couldn't be heard properly, and some places where obnoxious fumes were being issued by running RVs.

I have a suggestion, discussed with several other people who also found the situation almost intolerable, which I put forward for your consideration.

The Stewiacke site is large and easily divisible into fields. Some of the fields are more level and suited to the larger RVs which tend to run generators most. It should be fairly easy to estimate how many generator using RVs will attend a festival, given previous experience. Why not set aside an appropriate number of fields, and ask incoming traffic at the gate if they plan on using their generator? If they do, send them to a field designated for generator using vehicles. Ban the use of generators in other fields. If you are worried that estimates will be too far off, retain one last field for mixed (generator using and non) latecomers.

Conversely, you could choose to designate specific fields for people who dislike generators and don't wish to be near them at all. And if nothing else, you could restrict the use of generators for non-medical reasons to a smaller number of hours, since 8 a.m. to midnight seems an overly generous rule, to say the least."

It's unlikely I'll get more than a barely polite response, but how do other camping festivals deal with these Satanic devices?

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 12:01 PM

My little 500 watt Yamaha generator is almost inaudible at 20 paces - but at the moment it is hors de combat since the reccy pack appears to have gone mad and it is giving me 400 volts not 250. Yamaha are going "How old??????".

The irony is that I rarely use it myself and it is usually other people who need to charge their batteries etc.

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 12:16 PM

Use sites with plug-ins and sewer connections for the RVs that need them.

Others can use propane stoves, lamps, water heaters and even propane-run refrigerators (you can get dual-fuel units, too).

Alternately, set rules and enforce them.

I'm a tent camper and we've spent too many nights in campgrounds listening to generators instead of night sounds. (A .357 is one answer, but it's frowned upon by too many people.)

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 12:46 PM

Yer better RV's have Onan generators stuffed in a compartment behind the rear axle... They run real mufflers and exhaust systems and are very quiet...

Apparently yer neightbor didn't have a quality RV...

Sorry...

Ear plugs???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: Greg B
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 01:00 PM

Keeping them apart is a very good idea. If that isn't possible,
then it should be very simple--- no generators sundown to 8 am.

And absolutely NO external (i.e., not built into the RV)
generators allowed.

Virtually all RV's have refrigerators that can be kept cold
on a smidgen of propane. Interior lights, etc., all can run on
batteries. Usually the toilet flushes on 12V.

Air conditioning can't, but for Chrissake you were in Nova
Scotia! Open a window!

Of course you have to have decent batteries, keep them charged,
and not run hairdryers and curling irons and all manner of other
things on inverters.

The problem likely is that the guy wanted to be off at concerts
between 9AM and sundown, not at the RV running the generator to
charge the batteries.

The rule 'no generators' should be documented, should be 'for any
reason' (in other words, don't tell us that Ma has a heart condition
and needs to have the A/C running--- go to an RV park with hookups,
then). And the rule should be that if you violate that rule, they
can tell you to pull up and leave. NOW.

Similarly, festivals with camping should have a 24x7 mobile phone
number so that when some self-centered jerk starts up the genset
at 3AM, after being told to shut it down, the security person
comes out and tells him to roll it on out of there.

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 01:22 PM

We witnessed a musical battle around 7 a.m. in a public campground in Alberta once. A guy was playing rock music -- LOUD -- as he made breakfast, etc. A fellow next to him asked him to turn it down and received a "FY" answer. So the second fellow turned on HIS stereo. Opera. Wagner. And a much bigger setup.

I don't know the resolution of the incident -- we packed up and left before fists started flying.

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: EBarnacle
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 01:53 PM

Fisher-Panda also makes a well insulated genset line. You can have a quiet conversation right next to one when it is operating.

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: Greg B
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 02:08 PM

Most in-built RV gensets are very quiet indeed. However it's
not a technical problem. It's the inconsiderate horse's asses
that operate them.

I'm put in mind of Mike Agranoff's wonderful story about the
bagpiper at Philly Folk who insisted on playing the sun up
in the campground each morning.

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 02:17 PM

Most RV parks that do not have full electric hookups have a rule which is known as "the quiet hour". No generators between 10 PM and 7AM which is strictly enforced.
                                                 SOL

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 04:15 PM

As it should be. There are, however, too many who ignore the rules. That's where the tar and feathers should come in, but that's just my own opinion.

I have no quibble with quiet generators.

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 05:34 PM

I was once the subject of a threat to my personal safety on noise grounds, at Broadstairs Folk Festival, from the member of a well known group (no names, but he wasn't slim and I don't know anything about his parents) on the ground that I was practising the Morris drum at 9.30 am on the campsite (where I was camping: it was teh "family site and kids had been "playing" from about 8 am) - I had just been told that I was playing it for a workshop at 10 am and had never played one before. His objection was that he had been working until 1 am - and was having his favourite dream, about the virgins and the warm yoghourt - but I had been partying until about 1 am or later partly at his gig.

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 09:01 PM

We went to a private picking party for Bluegrassers at the beginning of July. It was held in a field belonging to a friend of Kendall's and quite a lot of Bluegrassers get together each year to make music et al.

This year we were parked not too far away from a couple of RVs sporting a sound system, which they proceeded to set up and use while performing in their area. The sound of their music, including clarinet(!) and electric guitar wafted across the site, making it very difficult for any others wanting to start a jam in their own RV area. For whatever reason the owner of the field was not going to ask them to turn it down - we moved our RV to the other end of the field but others were not as lucky as space was limited. We later hears that they had continued late into the night.

Next morning, while taking Seamus for an early morning walk, I made no attempt to lower my voice when talking to a friend just outside their RVs and we stood for a while yacking about this and that......

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 09:06 PM

If they're hung over, chop wood.

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: Bee
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 09:12 PM

Greg B, ordinarily the 'open a window, yer idiot!' option would work in Nova Scotia, but this weekend it was 35C and humid in the centre of the province. I am not built for the tropics, but managed (not having generator powered AC myself) by soaking my straw hat with water once an hour - very cool.

Most festival sites here don't have hookups. I'm greatly in favour of this generator user segregation idea; I'd really like to see it catch on.

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 09:38 PM

At UK festivals , IF anything like that happened , I think I would be practicing my Banjo Picking outside THEIR vehicle BEFORE breakfast !!

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 09:44 PM

Have an exterior add on generator on ours....I HATE the sumbitch. I won't allow him to run it except after noon and before 5 PM. ONLY to charge the batteries. I buy lots of candles. Cook outside on the camp stove.

I go 'camping' to get away from crap like that! Those of you who know me can probably guess that I'm not too shy about speaking up either. As Sir jOhn once said, 'be nice to Sorcha, she has guns'. So does Mr. We have a police band radio and are entitled to use it too!

We have. More than once. They tend to respond rather quickly.

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 10:18 PM

A cup of sugar in ther fuel tank of an unattended generator does wonders for the silence! Takes a long time to fix, too.

Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: Bee
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 10:44 PM

Husband was threatening to toss this particular generator into the river, but was fortunately distracted by a band coming on stage which featured a young, pretty and energetic girl bass player. In fact, his first viewing of this band caused him to remark that he was beginning to see the point of all this Bluegrass music...

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: Mr Happy
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 06:59 AM

Was at a FFest somewhere, Cleckie I think, last year & there was a big spotlight on a trailer parked in a remote area of the campsite.

The spot was only on at night & didn't light any useful parts, seemed to be focussed on the treetops.

The very noist generator was on 24/24, so we couldn't have a decent twang/pluck/squeeze/wail session.

I got really cheesed off, so went over to investigate offing it.

Being unfamiliar with where the stop button might be, I pressed my index finger against a likely looking object, only to find it was red hot! OUCH!!!

Eventually found the off switch & did the biz.

Was pleased I'd accomplished mission, but on me way back to our settlement noticed me finger was stinging madly & on examining it found on my fingertip a clearly indented pattern of the metal mesh I'd accidentally pressed! OWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

Also it made holding me plec quite painful - revenge of the 'Jenny' - AAAAAAaaaaaaaargh!

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: kendall
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 09:24 AM

It's easier to move if you can. However, a potato up the exhaust pipe will kill any engine immediatly.

By the way, that old sugar in the gas tank doesn't work. Sugar will not disolve in gasoline, and the granules are too big to clog the filter.

I used to go to a particular Bluegrass festival, and there was one couple there who ran their generatior all the time. I never parked near them, but we found out that the woman was in need of a constant supply of oxygen and her system required power to run it. They could have stayed home, but what would you do?

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 09:29 AM

Not for nothing is the biblical name Onan shared with a make of generator.
G

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: Mr Happy
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 09:33 AM

Onan, the 1st DIY enthusiast!!

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: Midchuck
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:19 AM

They could have stayed home, but what would you do?

Are all gasoline generators necessarily noisy?

In past years we had a good paying gig at a private picnic, where there was not power available. We negotiated for them to pay us to rent a small (Honda, IIRC) generator, to power our PA. Placed 50 feet away, with an extension cord to it, it was not loud enough to bother us in playing the gig. Do these people not have mufflers on their generators?

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: Greg B
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:22 PM

Kendall, someone who's using an oxygen 'concentrator' needs power
all the time. That same person can use 'bottled' oxygen, but it's
kind of expensive. Nowadays, they have concentrators that fill
bottles, which is great because the bottles are both silent and
mobile, and can be filled when the noise is no problem (concentrators
are noisy).

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: MaineDog
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:13 PM

I have an Onan 2.4 kw in my rv. It will power the a/c or the microwave, but not both at the same time. It will charge batteries.. If I got a big sound system, then I could drown out the noise of the generator, but then that would defeat the whole purpose of camping out with acoustic players, so I only rarely use the generator. BTW, I have to put in a new air filter each year, and adjust the mixture for the altutide I am at, or it will not deliver full power.
MD

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: kendall
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:34 PM

I have a 7000 w Onan and it is noisy. So, I don't run it if it is going to bother someone, including me. I hate unnecessary noise.

Giok, that wasa a good one!

Utah Phillips said he has a parakeet that he named Onan because he keeps spilling his seed on the cage bottom.

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: Greg B
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:41 PM

Old Onan got a bad rap, I think.

He was accused of inventing self-abuse, but insofar as
I can tell it was coitus interruptus that was his game.

And, as good theologians point out, his sin was not so
much the particular act as it was his disobedience to the
divine command to impregnate his sister-in-law.

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: Midchuck
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:46 PM

Ever notice that all our sex hangups come from the old Jewish law, and the old Jewish law was built around the premise of maximizing the number of children, to keep the tribe strong, but making sure they were all legitimate, to avoid fights over inheritance, etc.? Now any sex act except "normal" intercourse, within married couples, without using contraception, is "immoral." Even though there are too many children being born for the planet to support.

But I suppose this is pretty extreme thread creep.

P.

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:59 PM

Regeneration?

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: Rowan
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 02:43 AM

Youse guys make me feel privileged. None of the folk festivals I attend seem to have had a genset-induced noise problem and most of the people who attend them seem to adhere to the notion that the best music is live music, so there are no PAs in the camping areas. But I'm told that the grey nomads who wish for peace and quiet have to be discerning about where they camp and with whom they share the site.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:24 AM

In a sufficiently large RV, an installed generator can be unobtrusive, unless the surroundings are very quiet and you're really looking for something to object to. They also are rather expensive to run, so an electrical hookup should be the method of choice anywhere possible; and few of the monster RV users I've met will willingly run their generator if there's any another choice.

Some people attempt "external add-ons," but these are as obnoxious as any simple "portable."

Few portable generators can run for more than 5 to 8 hours without refueling, and consume anywhere between 6 and 10 gallons of gasoline (petrol) during that time, so about a (US) gallon per hour to have electricity isn't insignificant. (With our ridiculously cheap gasoline, $3/hour = $72/day if run continuosly.) The cost per "energy unit" is pretty comparable for gasoline and propane.

Built-ins will normally use propane, but require enormous tanks to support running continuously for even a full weekend, although I've "heard of" a very few able to run for a week at a time. Those are for people who leave granny knitting in the camper dockside while they cruise on their 60 foot yachts.

Claims to the contrary are total BULLSHIT: there is NO such thing as a "portable" generator that will not cause some imposition on others in most camping sites. Especially with gasoline/petrol fuel, they also smell pretty bad.

Those who say "my generator is so quite it doesn't bother anyone" are probably using it to run their TV for the obligatory football game, so their own screaming and yelling (and paralysis of the senses from the booze and junk food being thrown about) blocks them from noticing that all their neighbors are being significantly inconvenienced. But of course they wouldn't be "football fans" if rudeness mattered? [note: sarcasm?]

Those who require power and might have no alternative to generating their own should accept that they are imposing on others, and should evaluate the extent of, and make every effort to minimize, the imposition. The rest of us should make every effort to accomodate their "necessity," but it has to be a real need, and alternatives must be considered and used when available.

But then, that would require that we eliminate all the slobs from our society, and there'd be few of us left I suppose.

John

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: kendall
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 07:04 AM

Midchuck, thanks for posting the truth. The Taboo around sex has nothing to do with morality.

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 07:09 AM

Good God John, what size generators are people running? My 500 watt Yamaha does about 4 or 5 hours on a gallon!

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: EBarnacle
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 09:28 AM

I have been discussing installing solar power for a friend's home. It is amazing what quiet power can do, although it only works when the sun is out.

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 09:57 AM

Actually, for the people who want electricity to run aircon (more than a bit OTT here in Blighty), solar electric panels are a bit of a win-win. Put a bank of then over the roof, it shades the trailer and provides some charging to the batteries, and the hotter the sun, the more power....

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 10:45 AM

Richard B -

If you find 500 watts particularly useful, you could probably last a weekend on a couple of batteries. Even for recharging a typical auto battery that's not much more than enough to run a couple of good chargers. If you limit charging to the 8A (typical) rates recommended for discharged batteries to avoid the risks of blowing up the battery you're unlikely to get much useful battery re-charging out of your generator in a weekend.

Higher charging currents can be used for "peaking" on a fully charged battery, or for an initial "quick jolt" on a moderately discharged one; but if the battery is "down" it takes a long time to recharge, and even 8A at start can cause significant heating. Charging "hot" will shorten ultimate battery life. The charger may be "rated" at 8A or 10A but the quick rise in cell voltage during initial charging drops the effective current to half that for most of a safe charging cycle. My current "backup" is a 675 AH Marine/RV battery, that requires, with normal tapering, about 3 days (at 8 amps peak) to come up from where it's close to not being useful to where it produces "nominal voltage" after being off the charger long enough for the acids to mix it up. You can take the watt-hours out of a storage battery a lot faster than you can safely put them back in.

If you have an intermittent necessary use for power at that level, your gen might be helpful to prevent running down your basic batteries, but I've seen few people enamored of such teeny ones who couldn't get along without theirs. A bunch in a neighboring campground did use one at WVA a few years back for their "daquiri blender" but they got drunk pretty quickly and we were able to shut it down after they all passed out - or wandered off. I don't know if the "got the message" or were just too hungover to want another blended drink for the rest of the session.

Minimum useful size for a lightly equipped RV, to operate anything that can't run off batteries for the weekend, is generally at least 3 KW, although some people claim some "benefit" from a 1.5 KW unit.

Virtually no RV air conditioners, or microwaves, - the only common things that would need a generator - will run on less than about 1.5 KW, and few RVs are rated for installation of less than a 2.5 KW. The RV warranty, and certainly the installed appliances warranties, will likely be voided if you try to install a built-in generator less than 2.5 KW.

Something around 3.5 KW to perhaps 8 KW are about as large as I've heard of installed in RVs, mainly because larger ones are too heavy to be mounted without exceeding "point-load" limits. You could do a "DIY" installation, but a reputable dealer/service agency should - in most cases - refuse to install an excessively large one for you.

With the exception of the A/C and microwave, everything electric in most RVs is 12V DC here. The everything electric includes lights, furnace fans, water pumps, etc. Everything else usually runs off propane.

And a friend has, and has used in camp, a Yamaha that I think he said was rated at 700 W(?), and it was deemed excessively noisy by his campmates - so he(they?) shut it off, and he was asked (mostly politely, for a bunch of musicians) not to bring it to the next outing. An equally proud "Coleman solid state" - claimed to be the "quietest thing you can get" - gen owner got the same request from the same crew the previous year. Neither generator was extremely loud, but either was a "foreign noise" that other camp occupants did not accept willingly (with due consideration to the excuses for "needing" them).

John

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 02:32 PM

Generators are a huge pet peeve of mine. We have a large motorhome with a generator which we never use at festivals. The camper has 2 deep draw marine batteries that never seem to run down - lasts us for several days and we charge it again when we get home. Our stove and refrigerator run on propane. We don't go to festivals to watch TV or cook in the microwave (sometimes we forget to eat!) and we don't use the lights much. We use a propane lantern outside, the occasional light inside. The water systems use a pump that runs off the battery and that's about it.

I don't understand how some people can be so inconsiderate as to run their generators at all, much less into someone's yard spewing fumes and noise. It completely ruins jams.

When an obnoxious generator has been running for a long time and then shuts down, we do a LOUD round of applause and cheer wildly, so the perpetrator hopefully gets the idea. We've also tried speaking to the people nicely. Then speaking to the people running the event to get them to speak to the people. One time we just moved away. Most festivals we go to have certain hours when generators are allowed, but you know how some people are with following the rules. I totally agree with the idea of a separate area for people who want/need to run them.

Did use our generator on a cross-country trip when we stopped at a rest area in death valley. Had to!

Oh wait, we did use our generator at a festival once. It was a miserable, hot, humid scorcher and then a thunderstorm broke out. We took the opportunity of everyone being inside their campers to jump into ours, run the generator and run the A/C to cool off. And then we turned it off 1/2 hour later.

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:24 PM

Jesus wept! The size of those batteries, too! I use one 85AH leisure battery, and even the people with motor movers manage on two 110AH batteries. Most caravans here have "smart" chargers which vary charging rates to avoid too much plate damage on recharge. 500 watts at 12 volts (if the chargers were 100% efficient, which they aren't) is over 40 amps which (if the batteries would stand it, which they wont) would recharge a usual UK battery in between 2 and 3 hours.

Heating - propane or butane
'fridge - propane or butane
cooking - propane or butane
Water heater - propane or butane
Shower and water pump - 12v about 3 amps for about 5 minutes daily
Lights - I use low voltage flourescents mostly - about 1 amp for not more than 20 minutes daily: having reached falling down stage at festival, make tea and take it to bed, drink it and become unconscious.
Grottibotti - manual pump
Outside lights - candle lanterns
Control circuits - (water heater and fridge) about 0.1 amp continuous
Biggest current draw? If I run the cassette deck and turn up the power amp flat out - about 5 amps, but in real life I run the cassette deck or wireless quietly for not more than half an hour a day. I'm at a festival and want to be doing live music.

Aircon? My whole caravan cost me £250! It has however had the interior cupboards largely ripped out and fitted with guitar shelves (another £150) and a new 'fridge (another £180). Anyway I like the heat, although we don't get it as hot as you: but last time I was at the International Bar Association COnfrence in Singapore I was tending to annoy people by still wearing a 3-piece suit (not lightweight, either).

Broadstairs last year I needed a charge after 5 days of the 7. Others borrowed the Yamaha about every 2 days,and burned a tank of fuel each time. I've never needed the generator over a 2 or 3 day event, but it's nice to have it in case of need.

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 05:51 AM

"I needed a charge after 5 days"

... so are you a Scotch or Rye man...

Subject: RE: BS: RV Generators!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 06:16 AM

Ah, Foulestroupe, you did not watch the Broadstairs threads!

Last year I discovered one of the local pubs was doing: -

House double (1/3 gill) any basic spirit - £2
Double double £3
Double double double £4
Double double double £5
Double double double double £6 - that's about (well, roughly) a 70cl bottle cheaper than you can buy it in an off licence!

After 5 days, did I need a drink? Perhaps not!