BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 05:17 PM

Dave - I think it's time to review your medication again - it's affecting your ability to trype!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: skipy
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 04:15 PM

Lets obercome these hurdles
German perhaps?
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 04:05 PM

Where aretey coming to build the smoking room.?

Whuts happuned to me engrish?

Where are they going to build the smoking room

Phew, I don't think anyone noticed...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 03:43 PM

I honestly think that is a really good idea skipy. A couple of slight issues. Firstly - The cost. In the very first example you give, the pub mentioned is considering closing down because their takings have dropped £1000 a week. This is just 4 weeks after the ban started so it has cost them £4000. If they were forced to build a shelter like you suggest, at a cost of, what, £15,000? £20,000 - Would they not end up in just the same situation? Second. One of the other examples you mention, the one in Wales I think, says they do not have room for a smoking shelter. Where aretey coming to build the smoking room. The end result is the same - both pubs would still close. How do we get round that?

Lets obercome these hurdles before we start lobbying our MP's!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Grab
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 06:42 AM

Thanks for Googling for me. I'd rather assumed that stating the bleedin' obvious (that Scotland and Ireland continue to be favourite centres for drinking in spite of bans there) would be enough. ;-)

Dave Hit: nobody can give me three names of individuals killed by passive smoking.

It's easy to name one - Roy Castle. And at the risk of relying too much on Wikipedia, this page has links/quotes for a number of studies, including an AMA study suggesting 35-40,000 deaths per year from passive smoking in the US in the early 80s, and 3-5,000 deaths per year in France. Sorry, I've not got time right now to dig out the actual studies myself.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: skipy
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 05:49 AM

A landlord should be allowed to built a seperate (note-seperate) building of brick construction on his land / carpark for smokers. This can be regulated by planning permission etc. Smokers will have to accept a hike in prices to use the room. It could even be run by a committee of smokers & cleaned by them. I have not yet worked out a system to ensure smokers pay the inflated cost & not the non smoking bar rate. Ale could be delivered mechanically so there is no need for staff. Payment could be electronic. You could buy credit at the pub & by using a pin number pay for your ale. These things are doable.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 03:49 AM

skipy - Sorry but your argument IS inconsistant. You insist, as on this thread, that banning smoking in pubs is damaging to pub business. You insist that the landlords should have the right to choose whether the pubs are smoking or not. You insist that non smokers have as much right to fresh air as you have to smoke. Yes? So far so good? OK - Explain this to me then. If not allowing smoking is bad for business so which landlord in thier right mind is going to ban it? All pubs will therefore allow smoking. Where, then, can the non-smokers go for a drink in a pub? See the problem?

Having smoking and non-smoking rooms just doesn't work - we know that from experience - the smoke gets everywhere. Segregation cannot work - ie some pubs smoking and some not because no-one will decide which is which and somewhere down the line it will be classed as discrimination that some people can only go in some pubs. Just use some of that reasoning that you seem to have got back recently and come up with a sensible solution. Until then, yes, I will fail to grasp wher you are coming from. You are making no sense!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 03:24 AM

It's been illegal to smoke in areas where there is open food (such as a canteen servery or restaurant sweet trolley) since I worked in catering back in 1979/1980. The law was enforceable by the landlord.

Wetherspoons and many, many other pubs have had non-smoking areas for as long as they've served food. Bit stupid if you ask me, smoke is a free-moving entity that goes where it pleases, rather than keeping to the smoking end of the bar, and there were a huge number of pubs & restaurants where to get to the non-smoking bit, you had to walk through the smoking area! Many other pubs had a 'no smoking at the bar' rule that made life easier for non-smoking bar staff.

To extend the ban to the rest of the building just makes plain sense to me, when as statistics quoted above show, less than half the population are smokers. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Here's a suggestion. Get the smokers in the pubs affected to match the money they spend a month on tobacco products. Put that money into a fund and help buy the pubs their smoking shelters. That way, everyone is happy. I, as a non-smoker, am not subsidising the habit in others by an extra 5p on my beer, pub keeps both our custom, the smokers get their shelter and they might just realise how much money they physically burn each month!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Ernest
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 02:36 AM

Big Mick,
Bill D. has already written what I would have answered.

Freedom to choose:

A driver is speeding with 200 mph, killing 10 people
or
a gunman goes around shoots 10 people at random

Brought to court they plead "not guilty, yer honour: ye see, if people didn`t like passive-speeding / passive-shooting they should`ve stayed at home...."

There is no absolute freedom, freedom is always restricted by other people`s rights.

Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 10:10 PM

Smoking is filthy habit. I'm so glad it's banned here in pubs in Ireland for the past few years. In my immediate neighbourhood, admittedly central Dublin, it's had no adverse effects on trade. In fact lots of smokers have cut down or given up as a result. The absence of smoke is great for the musicians in the many music pubs in the area.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 09:33 PM

"landlord's right to choose"

right...and if they would ALL choose to continue allowing smoking?

I know people who think there should be no speed limits on highways, and no restrictions on heroin & other drugs, and no 'almost' no restrictions on owning firearms...etc.

Sorry, but when almost NONE of the pubs chose to stop during the last number of years this has developed, it falls to the authorities to do the choosing....for the overall benefit of those who couldn't go into a pub.

There IS no 'right' to choose a stance that is a proven danger to others.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Alice
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 07:53 PM

Click here

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 07:49 PM

One person's right to choose is always liable to mean the denial of choice to some other person, and this is no exception. The right to choose of the landloard isn't what concerns me. My right to choose does concern me. And my choice is to have the pubs I like to drink in free from tobacco smoke.

I agree that I'd prefer there to have been some loopholes to allow for places that were primarily smoking venues, such as Shisha bars. But in a society where a large majority of people do not smoke and prefer non-smoking environments public houses, which should be accessible to everyone, are rightly smoke free

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: skipy
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 07:16 PM

You certainly do! & a lot of them echo what I am saying!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 07:11 PM

I read a first person account once of a man who had smoked for years, had tried unsuccessfully for years to quit and was finally diagnosed with lung cancer.

And, he said, The saddest thing to discover was how easy it was to quit when it was too late.

(Just a little grist for the mill)

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Alice
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 07:02 PM

You get some interesting results if you google "ethics of smoking ban".

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: skipy
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 06:43 PM

I really don't know where you are coming from skipy
& I don't know why you consistantly fail to comprehend my stance!
A ban on smoking in public places that are designated no smoking by the owner / landlord .............no problem, no problem at all.
The right of an owner / landord to choose is what I want.
If owner feels that his buisness will do better non smoking then so be it.
If he / she feels they would rather have smokers then so be it.
But the right to choose, that is what is important here.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 06:42 PM

Ernest, I can't speak for the UK, but I don't believe that is the case in the US. Remember that the smoke/non smoke, under my way of doing things is not optional. You may not do both. You are either a smoking establishment or a non smoking establishment. Assuming your predicate is true, and I don't believe it is, then the smoking ban shouldn't last long, because the majority of your voters will rise up against it and agitate to do away with the ban. Wait .. you mean there is no strong popular movement against??????? Must be a vast left wing conspiracy to hold down all the folks that like to smoke ........ he says with tongue firmly planted in cheek. Despite all the predictions in Ireland, the US cities that have enacted, and the UK, that the people would never stand for this, there has been no mass uprising. I believe the polls show that most folks support this, and the support is growing daily. Remember the things that truly change these habits. For one, when the taxes on cigarettes here in the States went up, there was a corresponding drop in usage. Doing as I have suggested would create another drop as folks that decide against patronizing smoking joints seek other places.

Outright prohibition rarely really works, as the US experiment on the alchohol front has shown. But smart legislation/taxation/litigation can be very effective in in raising price and thus deterring the habit until the amount of smokers is so small that one could do away with the nasty buggers. Done right, it doesn't infringe on personal rights in the same way that bans do.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 06:35 PM

I have neighbors (thirty-something) who are smokers but can't kick the habit. They only smoke on their front porch, in the hope that they will smoke less and their house will be cleaner.

It's really something to see them on the porch when it bitterly cold or wretchedly hot out, but that's how they cope.

Not all smokers are in favor of smoking.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 06:16 PM

I really don't know where you are coming from skipy. You say you support the ban on smoking in public places yet you are campaigning for allowing smoking in pubs. What are pubs if they are not public places? Give us a consistant argument if nothing else.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 04:33 PM

I take it you'd be OK to smoke anything you wanted in these places...

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Ernest
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 03:54 PM

Big Mick.
if you become the ruler, please grant me the sole right to sell those signs that would indicate the businesses catering smokers.

I will be damned rich because every single business would simply buy a sign and go on as before.

Thinking of it "Smokewhiner`s" would be a great name for my business...

;0)

Sincerely: this is a field where the market doesn`t work (as someone has pointed out before: it had the chance since the time tobacco was brought to Europe. Apparently publicians are to timid to try). Nothing especially wrong with that: every market needs its regulations to work properly - otherwise trusts would take over and establish a monopol

Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 03:37 PM

Too many pubs?? Kendall.... go wash your mouth out!!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: kendall
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 03:35 PM

I got cancer from smoking, not from driving a car.

Maybe there are just too many pubs?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: GUEST,happy ex pat
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 12:25 PM

What the hell is wrong with us brits,we cant drink in moderation,we would rather smoke knowing the dangers instead of socialising respectably.We look like uncivilised gits and behave like complete meat heads.In spain i look at us and wonder where it has all gone wrong and can we ever become a civilised nation,instead of the cast of Jerry Springer,the musical.Yes,i know they smoke in bars in spain,but i can sit outside in warm comfort amongst people who act responsibly and look much more civilised,god help you all.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 12:00 PM

I believe that those problems could be overcome very simply by requiring delivery areas that are non smoking, and segregated. It would impose an additional financial burden on the business, hence increased costs for the customer, but if they are committed to their right to smoke, then they should be willing to pay it. Also, as to the issue of employees, the same rules would apply. Those that did not want to work in smoking clubs (after all, it is primarily clubs, restaraunts, pubs, and bars we are speaking of here) would simply not go there. I know, as a performer, that I have refused to play pubs without adequate ventilation. The point isn't that I am protecting smokers rights. Society doesn't seem ready to outlaw this horrible product as it should, preferring to let the market place resolve the problem, as well as peer pressure. If one is not willing to bite the bullet and outlaw this killer, then regulating its harmful effects is in order. Some feel the need to impose their values on smokers. Personally, and as an ex smoker, I don't care what they do TO THEMSELVES. If smokers are not willing to quit, that is their business, providing they don't impose their filthy habit on me. This would provide a way for them to exercise their poor judgement without imposing on the rest of us. If employers couldn't get enough customers, or employees, or performers, they would cease to exist.

I just don't believe in allowing anything that imposes others smoke on me against my will. In the abstract, I don't care if they choose to expose themselves to this poison of their own free will, just keep it away from me.

It is doable,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: skipy
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 11:17 AM

Dave! I've never said that & wouldn't. I'm all for segregated venues with the landlord / owner choosing. Always have been & always will be.
We stopped smoking in work here about 8 years ago & guess who brought that in, yep, yours truly.
We have 2 smoking sheds here & the no smokers often sit in them with us, but there has been quite a bit of bad feeling about that over the last couple of weeks from a few individuals.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 10:52 AM

"...allow any business that wants to cater to smokers to do so. "

And delivery men? And guys who repair things like plumbing & refrigeration units? And building inspectors? etc.... ALL these people have go into most commercial buildings, often for extended periods.

It is much more complicated than just 'allowing smokers to damage themselves if they wish'.

There are many laws to protect the public from their own stupidity in other areas; regarding drugs they are allowed access to; places and speeds they are allowed to drive; even the amount of 'noise' in workplaces without protection.

It took many years for research to prove that smoking, including 2nd hand smoke, was harmful as well as 'unpleasant' for many of us, and now that there is almost universal acceptance of the health problems of tobacco, people need to quit fighting the efforts to reduce PUBLIC restriction while we work on a gradual total ban!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 10:22 AM

It looks like, from what I can see, the smoking lounges in Tokyo are not manned. I am only hazzarding a guess but if the standard refuse collection personel, supplied with appropriate hazardous materials protection (particulate masks, gloves, overalls), kept them clean it would not be an issue?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 10:14 AM

Mick, if some establishments catered to smokers, an employee must be willing to expose him/herself to second hand smoke. Employees could be discriminated against if they were unwilling or incapable of working in a toxic environment. In the US, they'd holler at (Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA). In the UK, there's probably a similar organization.

A private club could get away with it, but I don't know if an establishment open to the general public could.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 10:11 AM

I'd support it - As long as you stop trying to convince us that banning smoking in public places is a bad thing! Have we found common ground. This is indeed the dawn of a new era:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: skipy
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 10:08 AM

At last we all agree, now lets get it implemented!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 09:57 AM

That would be perfect for me as well, Mick. Did you see the link to Wiki? If you follow this one and look for 'effects on business' it shows a smoking 'room' in Tokyo - Smoking is prohibited on streets in some areas of Tokyo, hence smokers retreat into smoking lounges.. What a wonderful idea!

I agree wholeheartedly with your earlier logic as well.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 09:44 AM

What idiotic logic this is. Personally I could care less if you smoke. You have every right to destroy your own body and die a horrible, long drawn out death. So long as you do that in a way that doesn't interfere with my right not to smoke, or be exposed to a toxic substance against my will, please knock yerself out. You have no right to force me to partake in your habit under any circumstances.

We are seeing a lot of this in the States as well. I guess I would have done it differently. I would allow any business that wants to cater to smokers to do so. But it would be exclusively. I would make them put very noticable signage up that indicates it is a smoking establishment. I would not allow non smoking sections. An establishment would be assumed to be non smoking unless it had size mandated signage to the contrary. This way the market would take care of the problem. Non smokers would have a choice as to whether they wanted to go to the smoking places. The only other thing I would do would be to ban smoking in all public places. This would stop me having to walk through the filthy smoke at doors to non smoking places.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 09:31 AM

ummm...skipy...Dave Hitt is the guy whose site YOU linked to above.

and his site is full of bad arguments for 'freedom'.

Smoking is a VERY hard to break habit, and many smokers are trapped in the circular reasoning of "I can't, or don't wish to stop, therefore any semi-logic that supports MY wishes sounds good".

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: skipy
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 08:59 AM

Sorry mate, I don't know who he is.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 08:35 AM

Dave Hitt. He IS joking. Isn't he?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: skipy
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 08:33 AM

comedians who not many people find funny to your hearts content.
?????
You lost me at that point Dave.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 08:07 AM

So far we have opinions from Money Week - A well established and respected financial magazine. ASH - The UK anti-smoking lobby with the support of the Government and the Medical Profession. CAMRA - the most sucessful consumer organisation in history and Wikipedia - The starting point for so many internet enquiries.

Versus...

Dave 'the Hitman' Hitt. Who has come out with the classic line of reasoning "nobody can give me three names of individuals killed by passive smoking. Therefore nobody has been killed by passive smoking".

Hmmmm. Wonder who I believe?

I have told you skipy - I am not arguing with you any more. Your reasoning appears to have gone out of the window. Feel free to keep quoting landlords who cannot run pubs and wannabee comedians who not many people find funny to your hearts content.

I will not ignore them altogether. Just try to give another side of the coin. Assume for one minute that every smoker is against the ban and every non smoker is for it (not true I know but the best we have) then for every 34 articles you link to I will have access to 66. Odds of nearly 2 to 1 against. Fancy a bet as to who can find most? :-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 08:03 AM

In March 2007 CAMRA reported 56 closures a month.

http://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/news_detail.aspx?articleid=28654

so there would have to be an increase on that for the smoking ban to have had an effect.

Many morris teams and folkies will have stories of pubs refusing business.

Here's mine - I rang up a pub landlady and said we were thinking of dancing outside the pub - with a group of others - total about 40 extra people. I thought I would be helping the pub to cope. "There's be glasses to wash, you'll be wanting drinks, etc etc....".

We went elsewhere.......

Thought for a thread.......

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 08:02 AM

So the warning that some marginal pubs would be weeded out

was that a filter tip?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Ernest
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 07:51 AM

So pubs frequented mostly by smokers close down because the smokers themselves don`t go there anymore?

Looks like it is the smokers fault then.

They chose to give up one habit (going to the pub) instead of the other (smoking) which they were asked to stop only temporarily (while inside the premises).

I pity them (seriously).
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: skipy
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 07:00 AM

Try   http://www.davehitt.com/facts/banlinks.html
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 05:40 AM

I agree - Grab. Use Google. Check out the following sites for their views.

This one from Money week is pretty impartial.

A quick search though the ASH web site will, not surprisingly, yield you more links to landlords supporting the ban than there are ones against. (NB - This site contains Flash content and may not let you link back - Open it in a seperate window!)

A little bit more surprising is the support it has received from the most sucessful consumer organisation in the world - CAMRA

Finaly, one I would never rely on just on it's own but there are many links to follow. An article in Wikipedia about bans makes some very interesting points about the effects on the licensed trade that seems to deny what is being banded about here.

Happy reading:-)

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: skipy
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 04:13 AM

For examples of smoke-free drinking, check out Scotland and Ireland. I don't believe banning smoking killed the pubs in either of those countries.

Grab, use Google.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:24 PM

Tough!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:21 PM

I know I said I wouldn't argue with skipy anymore - I'm not! Big Phil, you say It would have been much easier just to let the Landlord decide on the smoking debacle. They HAVE had exactly that choice since Walter R brought the weed into this country. They decided that they couldn't be arsed to spend any money cleaning up the air. They would rather make money than help people live. There are 30 pubs near me. NOT A SINGLE ONE WAS NO SMOKING. Sorry to shout but there was not one pub I could go in without setting off an asthma attack. Is that fair? It is precisely because pubs did NOT offer the choice that the legislation had been brought in. No ifs buts (pun intended) or excuses. The pubs have brought this on themselves.

Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Grab
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:18 PM

Beg pardon, I've looked up about Wetherspoons and I'm completely wrong. I must just have been lucky in only being near no-smoking Wetherspoonses!

Link interestingly *does* say that their profits went down a lot (20%) with no smoking - but does also quote a director saying "There is no doubt we have lost smokers to pubs next door. That can't happen, of course, under a universal ban." It also says that food sales went up by 10%.

href=http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,1723302,00.html

I'm prepared to believe that before the ban came in, the hardcore drinkers would head for a smoking pub over a no-smoking pub, and Wetherspoons does have a "drink-till-you-drop" kind of customer base. After the ban - well, instead of going to pub A or pub B, it's a choice between going out or not going out. If your time down the pub is important to you, then we're not talking an effect, are we?

For examples of smoke-free drinking, check out Scotland and Ireland. I don't believe banning smoking killed the pubs in either of those countries.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: skipy
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:15 PM

At last, some common sense!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Big Phil
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:10 PM

It would have been much easier just to let the Landlord decide on the smoking debacle. Either he wants a smoking pub, or he wants a non smoking pub, the smokers and non smokers can then decide on which type of pub to visit.

But I forgot, that would have been too easy to leave it to the individual to make his/her mindup, better the nanny state to tell us what to do. I am a nonsmoker, but would still visit a smoking pub, its down to individual choice, or it should be.

If smoking is such a threat to all our lives, why not ban it, end of story, oh I forgot the Government takes hundreds of millions in tax off the smokers, what a shower of double standard b@st@rds they are.