BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: kendall
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 07:35 AM

..."public opinion forced Blair to leave office" And how long did that take?

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: Genie
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 04:51 AM

Those of you who keep saying "the Democrats" voted for the surge, won't support an impeachment inquiry, etc., are misrepresenting the votes in Congress.   In many cases, the majority of the Dems -- sometimes including Pelosi, Reid, etc. -- have voted against Dubya's agenda, but virtually all the Republicans (plus Lieberman) and a handful of Democrats (often from states where a really liberal Dem would never get elected make up a majority -- or the Republicans filibuster in the Senate).

The Dems ARE conducting hearings that well may lead to some Republicans condemning Bush the way it went down for Nixon after Watergate.   Unless and until hearings uncover enough clear-cut wrongdoing that at least a few in their own party will acknowledge the corruption of Bush and Cheney, passing an impeachment resolution would be spun by the media as strictly partisan and the public would not be behind it.   They need to do the investigations first -- impeach Gonzales too -- then let the hearings take Congress where they will.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 03:59 AM

Froth, I suspect you don't sleep well.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 03:59 AM

I would also agree with pdq's remark, but point the finger at those who believe the current electoral system in the US and the UK can deliver what most here would like to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 12:22 AM

Perfect "10" on that quip, pdq.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: Slag
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 11:40 PM

Pelosi, Sheehan, Reid, et al, boring holes in the bottom of the ship of state to let all the bilge out so we don't sink.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: GUEST,Re-poster
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 11:19 PM

John Warner. He forgot to mention that congress could quit voting for things like this:

In October 2006, Bush signed into law the John Warner National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2007. Quietly slipped into the law at the last minute, at the request of the Bush administration, were sections changing important legal principles, dating back 200 years, which limit the U.S. government's ability to use the military to intervene in domestic affairs. These changes would allow Bush, whenever he thinks it necessary, to institute martial law--under which the military takes direct control over civilian administration....

http://www.inteldaily.com/?c=144&a=1431

Worth reading. You HAVE no rights in America now, and that's how the Democrats want it. The Republicans did the dirty work of setting it up, and the Dems will use it. If we're lucky, Hillary Clinton will only kill 50 million Americans in the purges.

Don't you folks get tired of being played?

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: pdq
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 11:12 PM

Obviously, she has also done very little to improve the treatment of the mentally ill.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: GUEST,Re-poster
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 11:01 PM

Pelosi has done nothing to roll back the PATRIOT Act, the Military Commissions Act, the John Warner Defense Authorization Act, etc., and as a result, the Democrats have put a stamp of approval on the death of the U.S. Constitution. Bush has committed a thousand capital crimes, and by endorsing the crimes, Pelosi and the Democratic leadership is now culpable in those crimes. These are arch criminals who are mass-murdering overseas and setting up the same scenario for America. The Democrats have probably been told that they will be allowed oversee the implementation of the purges in America, so they've signed on whole-heartedly to the Bush cabal's treason. Pelosi needs to be jettisoned like yesterday's enchilada. She is supporting the president and the war that killed her next opponent's son.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 10:52 PM

Sure are a lot of folks saying what the Democrats haven't done, but I don't see many concrete ideas about HOW they can do things.
You just want to see people waving their arms in displays of indignation and introducing bills demanding this & that which have no hope of passage?

   Even John Warner (R/Va) admitted the other day that about the only weapon the Senate has is the budget, and *NO* one wants to be accused of defunding the troops in the field.

All we can try to do is elect a Congress next year with a large enough majority in EACH house to force the issue....and you can bet that every Republican alive is planning how to divert that effort with special interest scare tactics on other issues.
You think you heard a lot about gun control and gay marriage and The 10 Commandments and 'raising your taxes' last time!

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 09:55 PM

Beabiemeluv, read Pelosi's website: http://www.house.gov/pelosi/ and I think you'll see that she is working toward clearly defined goals. And I don't think she forgets for a moment that she is the Speaker of the ENTIRE House, not just of the Democrats. In my view she is not only trying to make known her own views but attempting to bring more Republicans on board. It is the ONLY way her goals can be realized.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 09:45 PM

Bobert, you are always disappointed with the Dems. If you weren't, I guess we'd be disappointed in you;-)

At any rate, Sheehan can't do much harm to Pelosi--her district is only 15% Republican. So totally outnumbered that they all walk to the store together for protection;-)

For those who are angry because the Dems haven't yet extricated us from Iraq, remember that one of the many reasons for not going in there was that there would be no be no easy exit--

I anyone has a viable exit strategy (meaning one that would not send the country into genocidal anarchy), I am sure there are any number of people in Washington, from Bush on down, who would love to hear from you--

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 08:01 PM

Well, well, well...

Ol' hillbilly caught between a rock and hard place here... Everyone knows that I love Ebbie with all me heart... She done pulled my butt outta many a fire... But...

... I'm real disappointed with the Dems... They have the votes to vote a new resolution every day that says' "This war sucks, Mr. President", even if it does get vetoed, but they haven't done that...

It kinda reminds me of a sports team that loses all its games because it is afraid to lose??? Yeah, the Dems are doing exactly what Bush has been doing for 6 plue years now... They are tryin' to run out the clock before the '08 election...

This is a major risk for them...

Meanwhile, a stupid and senseless war continues on and on and on and....

...the beat goes on as the Dems don't want to p.o. their corporate sponsors, who BTW, are the same folks bankrolling the Repubs...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: GUEST,Don Firth
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 08:00 PM

There seems to be a rash of this sort of nonsense going on these days, particularly here on Mudcat.

It's awfully easy for some people who don't live in this country to sit back and made snide comments when they don't have to deal with it themselves, especially when they have only the fuzziest idea of how the American political system works (or sometimes doesn't). And it's also easy to sit back and snipe at the very people who are trying to change the government, but have not yet been successful. Or to insist that they do things that they know simply won't work. Doesn't help one bit. Not constructive criticism. But I suppose it lets the armchair critics feel superior.

I'd like to see how well they would fair if they actually had to get involved themselves.

If they have something genuinely constructive to suggest, then I'd like to hear it. But if all they can offer is sarcastic remarks about the very people who are going their best to change things, then I wish they would just shut the hell up!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 07:49 PM

Under US law, the House impeaches, which is essentially the same as an indictment in criminal court. This requires a simple majority which the Democrats (who are hardly monolithic) could possibly attain. The case then goes to the Senate, where conviction requires a 2/3 majority. Last I noticed, the Democratic majority in the Senate was 51/49, IF the two Independents are included. So, the chance of a conviction on an impeachment charge is exactly nil.

With the Senate this evenly divided, nothing important can be agreed upon unless it has strong bipartisan support. Debate on any issue can go on forever (and "debate", in this context, can include a senator reading the newspaper aloud) unless there is a 60/40 vote to cut it off and vote on a measure...and the Democrats don't have 60 votes.

Sheehan is after Polosi for not pursuing impeachment; clearly Pelosi knows that there is no point in wasting her time going after something (an impeachment charge) that is symbolic at best and would, through its total polarization of Congress, totally eliminate any possibility of them accomplishing anything at all. If Sheehan thinks that this Congress, with everything else that should be on its plate, has time to waste than she doesn't deserve to be elected to anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 07:28 PM

Classic standoff: the pot calls the kettle black.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 07:15 PM

By opposition, I mean your political representatives, who's supposed funtion is to oppose Mr Bush,his administration and the war they have created.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 07:05 PM

"You don't appear to know that your opposition is worthless." Ake

And yours isn't? pttuii!

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 06:29 PM

Try again to do what? I have read 'most' of that link. I was primarily replying to sneaky guest 're-poster' who thinks dealing with stupid politicians is as easy as swatting a stupid dog with a newspaper.

YOU say things like "You appear to have a gang of thugs in power and a cowardly opposition who don't want power." as if all we have to do is march into Bush's office and escort him out!

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 06:15 PM

Bill D PLease read the link on the opening thread....Then try again..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 06:07 PM

High Treason???? For not coming into office and immediately start tossing dull axes about? Pelosi has more sense than to start something that cannot practically BE done. Bush and several of his cronies probably deserve impeachment, and if this were 2 years ago, I'd be in favor of it....but we have NO chance of carrying out a double impeachment of Bush AND Cheney and also finding a new president in only 15 months..or do you want Pelosi to BE president?

Impeachment, such as Sheehan was calling for, is not like traffic court...we don't just say, "hey...look what you did! Get outa here!"
It is a VERY complex process, and the process of proving in court what Bush & Cheney are 'guilty' of is not easy, and could tie up the entire Congress for months! We do NOT have 'votes of no confidence' that can change administrations in mid-stream.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 06:07 PM

You don't appear to know that your opposition is worthless

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 06:04 PM

You think we don't know?

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 05:54 PM

This "furriner" is as culpable as you are, thanks to Your President and our Prime minister.

At least public opinion in the UK forced Blair to leave office.

You appear to have a gang of thugs in power and a cowardly opposition who don't want power.

Don't shoot the messenger Ebbie, open your eyes and see what has happened to America.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 05:33 PM

Akenetan, your post of 4:33 is wrong on almost all counts.

* Just for starters: We are a Republic. We elect representatives. We do not have a direct vote.
* If you read some of Pelosi's reasoning, you might still not agree with her conclusions but you WOULD be aware that she is a thinking and realistic person.
* There NEVER was "a big majority that loved Bush" so you are also wrong about the "...grudgingly changed sides and their opposition is lukewarm to say the least. Mealy-mouthed hypocricy from most here."
* I get mightily tired of furriners who don't have a clue. Only a mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: GUEST,Don Firth
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 03:07 PM

"Pelosi needs to be tried for high treason. . . .

Yeah, sure. But if you were to put Port-a-Potties equipped with castors all over Washington, D. C., then heads would really roll!

Reflamin'diculous!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: GUEST,Re-poster
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 01:40 PM

Pelosi leads the Democrats, who were going to end the war, impeach Bush and bring charges. The Democrats voted to SURGE the war, took impeachment off the table, and whatever disipline is being doled out to Republicans is the slap-on-the-wrist kind.

Pelosi needs to be tried for high treason, along with the Republican leaders, and they need to hang together. As in, at the end of a rope.

America has been hijacked by gangsters. Pelosi has signed on for the full abomination. People know this. Sheehan will beat Pelosi like a bongo if the race isn't rigged. I hope the first thing a "Sheehan campaign" does is file injunctions against the use of Diebold voting machines in Pelosi's congressional district. Let the people vote, let the people count the votes.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 01:19 PM

There is a learning curve that Sheehan hasn't negotiated yet. I don't dispute what she's arguing against, more power to her. Bush has inflicted an abomination upon the world, there is no excuse for his behavior. But Sheehan is still a lightweight in this battle, even with name recognition.

Until someone bright enough to start talking to Iraq's neighbors gets in and does just that, there isn't a hope in hell than an anti-war activist is going to make a difference.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 04:33 AM

Don't the half million Iraqi deaths as a result of this pre- emptive war mean anything to you Americans?   Its still going on remember and its not just Bush's fault.   What about that democracy you're so proud of? We are all implicated.

A big majority loved Bush and his tactics while he appeared to be winning, now they have grudgingly changed sides and their opposition is lukewarm to say the least. Mealy-mouthed hypocricy from most here.

Bobert and Barry are consistent and correct. Given public opinion in America now the Dems could have stopped American involvment...They have not the guts...or the WILL.

You need a beacon to show the world that there is still decency left in America. Sheehan can divide where division is required, and unite the American people who have been sidetracked and confused by Dems and Pubs alike

The agenda of most here is to keep the American political system intact. Wake up to reality, you are being conned by people who are motivated by nothing other than self-interest...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 02:17 AM

Yup, Don, you're right in interpreting what I was saying above. I vote she go to Northern California and lay siege at that Republican congressman's door. Then if she actually has the great good fortune (and a batch in knee-jerk voters?) to take out the incumbent it will mean one less Republican in D.C. She's saying things that need to be said, but she comes across as such a one-note politician that the rest of the job may be completely beyond her. Same as with the pro-life folks who don't seem to have any other issues. It's a waste of an election to send someone to congress who has such a narrow view of the job to be done.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: GUEST,Don Firth
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 10:02 PM

That sounds like a plan, Joe! If it isn't already under way, is there any way you could implement it?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 09:29 PM

I'm happy having Nancy Pelosi where she is. She's certainly closer to the center than the Bush Regime is, and she has a far better chance of getting something accomplished than a left-wing ideologue would.

On the other hand, Cindy Sheehan has a lot that needs to be said, and she'd be an asset to Congress. I live in a Northern California district with a very corrupt, vulnerable Republican Congressman (John Doolittle). Some well-known Democrat like Cindy Sheehan might do very well in the Congressional election here next year. And if she doesn't win, my Catholic parish needs a youth minister, and I understand Cindy Sheehan has a good deal of experience working as a youth minister in our diocese.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 09:04 PM

I really haven't hear one argument here that convinces me that Cindy runnin' is a bd thing...

The Dems could have stopped the Iraq war if they had the balls... They don't...

Now if the current crop won't stand up for what we all know is the riright thing to do then it's time for them to either go or figure out that the American people expect more of them...

Go, Cindy...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: pdq
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 08:15 PM

Nancy Pelosi has no heart and Cindy Sheehan has no brain. If we add Harry Reid as the Cowardly Lion, we can start filming a remake of The Wizard Of Oz.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: kendall
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 07:44 PM

It took the republicans years to screw it up, now we expect the democrats to make it all right in a few months?

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: Slag
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 07:36 PM

I'm moving to SF so I can vote for Cindy!

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi (Sheehan v. Democrats)
From: Genie
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 05:13 PM

Don, you said it well.

First, Barry, "we" who put the dems in the majority in Congress did it for various reasons, not the least of which was to enable Congress to conduct badly needed hearings (which Conyers and Leahy and Wachman (sp?) are doint), to stop the rubber-stamping of all Bush's judicial and other nominees (which is also happening), and to have control over which bills get passed out of committee. (The Rep.- controlled Congress blocked many bipartisan-supported bills from coming to the floor for a vote.)    Any Democrat or "liberal" who thinks it doesn't matter which party a member of Congress belongs to -- even if the person doesn't fall in line with the party on everything -- is very naive about how the Federal government works.

Second, Pelosi -- who is running as an Independent -- very likely will lose but may split the left-of-center vote (or the anti-Iraq-occupation vote) enough to give that seat to a Republican.

Third -- Pelosi has voted the way Kucinich and other liberal Dems have on many, many issues.    Ending the occupation of Iraq, while important, is not the only goal.

Fourth -- and I hope to heaven Sheehan and her supporters realize this --, if Pelosi loses her seat but the Dems retain control of the House, the person the Dems elect as Speaker may not be any more in line with Sheehan's views than Pelosi is.

Cindy, if you're a real patriot as well as having a lick of sense about political strategy, for God's sake, find a vulnerable republican -- or even a "blue dog Democrat" -- and run against him or her!

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: GUEST,Don Firth
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 04:40 PM

Yup! Bill's got it right!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 03:49 PM

*sigh*...Sheehan is another case of 'righteous indignation' gone astray. She has many valid and solid points about Bush & his regimé, but little comprehension of possible practical ways to combat and resolve the problem.
She does, of course, have the right to speak out, file as a candidate and and get publicity...which is probably all she really expects, anyway....but it seems to me she did more good just publicly embarrassing Bush than she can possibly do by harassing Pelosi for not 'agreeing' to something counterproductive.

   I see remarks in that site link above referring to Pelosi as "... a multi-millionaire supporter of American imperialism and militarism, who voted for the Patriot Act and supported Bush's program of warrantless wire-tapping,..." What a crock of distorted nonsense! It is time people learned to separate most 'votes' of Senators and representatives from what the really 'believe' and are actually working for.
   A lot of Senators and Representatives voted FOR things like the Patriot Act and funding the Iraq invasion either because they were flatly misled, or because they felt they couldn't win anyway, and could accrue political capital for future dealings. Sad commentary on how it works, but if you want to do ANY good in that atmosphere, you need to KNOW how it works!

Cindy will run...she'll get interviewed a lot and wave her banners...she'll get defeated....but she MAY do more harm than good by putting unachievable goals in front of the voters and skewing the vote in some awkward way.

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: GUEST,Don Firth
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 02:45 PM

Uh . . . I don't thing Stilly is suggesting that Cindy run as a Republican, I think she's saying that instead of running against Pelosi and being a spoiler and splitting votes (I'd a lot rather have Pelosi in there than another Republican!), she should run as a Democrat (or possibly an independent or third-party candidate) against a Republican representative, preferably an incumbant. If she wins, great! But even if not, she will undoubtedly have some following and financial support—quite possibly a large following and a lot of support—and the campaign (speeches, news coverage, etc.) would give her an opportunity to speak her piece pretty effectively.

Right, Maggie?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: Barry Finn
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 02:23 PM

Sorry. That was "sandbag" & was meant to be a play on words

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: Barry Finn
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 02:15 PM

Pelosi & other dems need to know we didn't put them in office so that they could run & duck for cover when they see a snadbag tossed their way. They need to start fighting for us in a serious way. This, as far as I'm concerned is a good way of showing our intentions. And if she beats Pelosi (I don't believe that she would even come close) that would send a definite message to the rest of the slackers that we want what we voted for & not a bit less. Bush needs to be impeached now, the war needs to end now, the educational, social security & health systems need to be repaired now, the illegal immagration issue, employment issues, economic issues all need to be straightened out & they need to know that it's our asses on the line as well as theirs.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 12:45 PM

Well, first of al, srs, Cindy doesn't stnad a chance to winning a democratic primary and second, why bother running as a Repub 'cause she wouldn't get a single vote, let alone the necessary signitures to get on the ballot...

Jus MO...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 01:22 AM

Another spoiler. Great. Why not go after a vulnerable Republican seat, and then work on convincing Pelosi to see her point? Why waste her politcal capital this way?

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 08:11 PM

Hear, hear!!!

Just what Mrs. P. needs...

Go Cindy...

Keep the bastards half honest...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 08:09 PM

Guest,Re-poster-

If you're really serious about this topic you might consider becoming a Mudcat member.

I'd really like to get more of an idea of who you are before I debate a topic such as this.

Charley Noble

Subject: BS: Sheehan vs. Pelosi
From: GUEST,Re-poster
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 08:00 PM

Arguing that the American electorate had placed the Democrats in the majority in Congress out of disgust with the Bush administration, Sheehan declared that Congress, "under the speakership of Ms. Pelosi has done nothing but protect the status quo of the corporate elite and, in fact, since she has been the Speaker, the situation in the Middle East has grown far worse."

Sheehan asserted that "the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer and the middle class is rapidly disappearing along with the 'American dream' of home ownership." She went on: "The PATRIOT Act and Military Commissions Act need to be repealed and habeas corpus needs to be restored. These things can only happen with fearless leadership, not fearful capitulation to a lying President."

She explained that she was running out of opposition to the "corporately controlled 'two' party system."

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/aug2007/shee-a23.shtml