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BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ?
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Subject: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Wesley S Date: 24 Aug 07 - 05:23 PM I'm hearing rumors that Fidel Castro may have died earlier today. Does anyone have any facts yet? And { speculation requested here }what does this mean for relations between Cuba and the USA? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Rapparee Date: 24 Aug 07 - 05:30 PM I don't find any mention of it at AP, CNN, al-Jazeera, International Hearld-Tribune, or Reuters websites. Could have happened and the word simply isn't out yet. Cuba celebrated Castro's 81st birthday on the 13th. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: artbrooks Date: 24 Aug 07 - 06:03 PM Nothing at BBC.com, the NY Times, Tribuna de la Habana or Cuba Ahora. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Aug 07 - 06:43 PM Well, news.google.com has rumors, but no confimation. Voice of America says he's recovering from something. Reuters says he's OK. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Sorcha Date: 24 Aug 07 - 10:16 PM He's 'been recovering from something' for a very long time now...... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 25 Aug 07 - 02:20 AM The poison pen of notorious blogger Perez Hilton has apparently sealed the end of Cuban dictator Fidel Castro. According to the celebrity mudslinger's eponymous website, www.perezhilton.com, the infamous leader is dead. Rumors of his death have been circulating for awhile now, but due to Hilton's reputation for leaking celebrity gossip before anyone else, including veterans of the gossip biz, the interest of the media and Cuban Americans alike has been piqued. Apparently, Miami is afire with the news. Perez Hilton? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: pdq Date: 25 Aug 07 - 09:56 AM Probably related to Elvis Perez. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Rapparee Date: 25 Aug 07 - 10:52 AM Paris Hilton's illegimate bother by her second cousin twice removed on Aunt Edna's side, the infamous n'er-do-well Bronx Hilton. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Joe_F Date: 25 Aug 07 - 08:05 PM Is there such a thing as a legitimate bother? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Sep 07 - 01:19 PM Old Bright Eyes is back... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Sep 07 - 01:37 PM Everybody dies eventually. It's the only sure way of getting away from pests like Perez Hilton. It's Nature's escape clause from intolerable situations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: akenaton Date: 22 Sep 07 - 05:00 PM Viva Fidel!! One of the greatest men of the 20th/21st centuries. When Fidel dies, and I hope it's far away the sorrow of his people will be real and very obvious. Would any of our leaders inspire such devotion....I don't think so. A country weakened and impoverished by politically inspired sanctions,life is hard for Cubans, yet for Fidel's funeral they will turn out in their hundreds of thousands. I would love to visit Cuba...don't suppose I ever will, but friends who have been there tell me that Cubans really respect The "father of the nation".....Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Sep 07 - 05:02 PM Many do. Then he has his critics too. I've met both when I was there. Cuba is a very courageous nation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: BK Lick Date: 22 Sep 07 - 05:13 PM Castro seen in rare TV interview |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Stringsinger Date: 22 Sep 07 - 05:33 PM CNN mistakenly reported that Nelson Mandela had died. Bush repeated the misinformation on one of his speeches. What else is new? Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Sep 07 - 05:51 PM Here's the whole interview (well, 38 minutes of it) on YouTube, for Spanish speakers. And it shows why I called him "Old Bright Eyes". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Greg B Date: 22 Sep 07 - 06:04 PM Ake, if you want to visit Cuba it's easy. And relatively cheap, I'm told. Quite a tourist destination. Kind of reminds me of what the Dominican Republic is for Americans. You're welcome to Fidel. The regime that went before was corrupt, but he's nothing but an opportunistic dictator who cares more for power and his ego than he does for his people. He's proof that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. With the right revolution, Cuba could have become what Las Vegas and Florida are put together, and could have prospered on both agriculture and tourism. Which then could have benefited her people. If it's so great there, why do people risk their lives on boats to try and 'escape?' Why should one even have to 'escape?' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Sep 07 - 06:07 PM Cuba could have become what Las Vegas and Florida are, put together That's supposed to be something to be wished for? I think I'd die rather than have that happen to my country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Sep 07 - 06:20 PM "Cuba could have become what Las Vegas and Florida are, put together..." YEAH! Like a suburb of Hell, in other words... I like Cuba precisely because they did not become what Las Vegas and Florida are, put together. The right revolution could, indeed, have happened when Fidel went to the USA (visited the U.N. in New York) shortly after his revolution succeeded, expecting to find friendliness and cooperation from the American government. They wouldn't even talk to him. The USA chose from the beginning to embargo Cuba and turn it into a pariah in the western hemisphere. They could have chosen otherwise, and had a friend and a regional ally in Castro. Their choice drove Cuba straight into the arms of the Soviets. They chose that way because the Mafia and some big American companies were mad at Castro for kicking them out of Cuba...which was something he did on behalf OF most ordinary Cubans...but not on behalf of the richer Cubans who were already profiting from working with the Mafia and the big American companies. So as usual, it was really all about money. Castro became a pariah because he threatened somebody's profits, and that somebody pulled the usual political strings and got Cuba into the Cold War. It's always about money. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Greg B Date: 22 Sep 07 - 06:35 PM Oh come ON. Be serious. Castro was a Marxist; America didn't 'drive him into the arms of the Soviets.' Anyone with half a brain, (and Castro has one and 3/4) knew that in the political world of the late 50's an avowed Communist didn't stand a chance in hell with the US regime. He knew damned good and well what kind of reception he'd get from Ike and any likely successor. As a matter of fact, his head-butting with the US served to shore up his power. There's nothing like an enemy 50 miles off your shore to give you something to rally around and to distract from the fact that YOU, actually, are the enemy. Look how Dubya's approval ratings shot up after 9/11. And after he started his little adventure in Iraq. Castro's gambit was the same. Blame the enemy at the gates for your impoverishment, not the bearded little tin god in his army fatigues. Nobody in his right mind would say there was justice for Cubanos at large pre-Castro. But he's a classic example of 'do anything, even if it's wrong.' If he's such a benevolent forward-thinking type, how come there hasn't been a free and fair election in 5 decades? 'Splain it to me Lucy... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Sep 07 - 06:41 PM "in the political world of the late 50's an avowed Communist didn't stand a chance in hell with the US regime. " What about Tito? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Sep 07 - 07:14 PM What works in this world is pragmatism, Greg. Political decisions are made on the basis of pragmatism. The USA could have chosen to work with Castro after he kicked out Batista, and if they had...no one in America would ever have called him a "communist". "Communist" was an ephithet used in the USA to curse people whom one wished to position as enemies for some pragmatic political reason. It still is, to some extent. Old habits die hard. The USA is presently working most marvelously with Communist China...and the Chinese, though still officially "communist" are embracing capitalism bigtime. Why? Mutual pragmatism. They need each other at the moment. However, your point that "his head-butting with the US served to shore up his power. There's nothing like an enemy 50 miles off your shore to give you something to rally around and to distract from..." That point is well taken. You're quite right that he used that to shore up his power, and the Americans did quite a bit to help him in that regard...which is kind of ironical, I think. They produced the opposite effect to what they wanted. This is why Sun Tzu says, "To attack an enemy is to give him strength". They could have worked with Castro. Had they done so, the Russians would have had precious little input into Cuban affairs from that point on, in my opinion, because working with the USA would have been much easier and much more profitable for Fidel. Man, if Fidel had been willing to kill for the CIA and to run that island as a virtual slave labour camp for American sugar companies into perpetuity...the USA would have loved him. He would have been "our trusted friend and ally". Elections or no elections. That's how it works. It's never about democracy. It's never about human rights. It's always about money, strategic resources, business, and trade....oh, and military advantage, of course. Cuba is a very strategically powerful location in the Caribbean...that's why the USA is still in Guantanamo. I note that the Russians have never had the privilege of such a base in Hawaii....or Mexico....or South Korea...or Taiwan...but the USA gets a base in Castro's Cuba! Incredible. Don't you get the impression that the USA just gets to have its cake and eat it too? I do. That's what pisses me off about American foreign policy...the sheer overweening arrogance of it all. They get away with what no other nation can or ever would...because they figure they sit on the right hand of God or something. Oh, and because they can incinerate the world too. That always helps. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: GUEST,patty o'dawes Date: 23 Sep 07 - 08:01 AM Is he deader than Mandela? Bush does it again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Ron Davies Date: 23 Sep 07 - 08:08 PM Kevin-- As you know, I suspect, Tito was looked on favorably by the West for the specific reason that he resisted being part of the Soviet sphere of influence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Sep 07 - 10:00 PM Yes, he steered an independent course. Tito was a tough man who never backed down to anyone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Ron Davies Date: 23 Sep 07 - 11:14 PM Heard something good on this--others probably also heard it. Garrison Keillor yesterday mentioned the rumor of Castro's death, saying that Castro's own reaction to the rumor was that he intended to survive Bush's presidency. Said Garrison: Join the club--so do we all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 24 Sep 07 - 05:14 AM Look I know this is a damn cheek but I can't seem to get a response up there. According to the Lonely Planet Guide to Cuba: "Visitors to Cuba will find a Casa de la Trova in most large towns where guitar-toting trovadores (troubadours) sing trovas (ballads) in traditional decima verse". Does anybody have experience of this? And do they mind if you join in or offer to do a floor spot? Cheers Les |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Sep 07 - 09:52 AM Of course I know that. The point I was making was that the USA was pragmatic enough to support Tito, regardless of the fact that he was a Communist - demonstrating that to assert "an avowed Communist didn't stand a chance in hell with the US regime" is to mis-state and oversimplify the historic situation and the options available. It seems highly likely that Castro would have quite happy "to resist being part of the Soviet sphere of influence" - or part of anyone's "sphere of influence" for that matter. But a combination of sanctions and subversion from the USA pushed him into looking for help where he could get it. Necessity makes strange bedfellows. As Churchill once said "If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons. " |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Greg B Date: 24 Sep 07 - 01:02 PM Little Hawk, the reason the US can still have a base in Cuba is because the US is holding Cuba to the terms of a treaty signed in 1903 and modified in 1934. The Castro regime doesn't like it one bit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: pdq Date: 24 Sep 07 - 01:27 PM Platt Amendment, 1903At the end of the Spanish-American War in 1898, the United States found itself in control of several overseas territories, including Cuba. (see the de me letter) In April of 1898, Senator Henry M. Teller, of Colorado, proposed an amendment to the United State declaration of war against Spain, which stated that the United States would not establish permanent control over Cuba. The Senate adopted the amendment on April 19. Nonetheless, the occupation of Cuba by U.S. troops continued for several years after the war was over. Under the military governor, Gen. Leonard Wood, a school system was organized, finances were set in order, and significant progress was made in eliminating yellow fever. In July 1900, the Constitutional Convention of Cuba started its deliberations and was notified that the U.S. Congress intended to attach an amendment to the Cuban Constitution. In 1901, Secretary of War Elihu Root drafted a set of articles as guidelines for future United StateCuban relations. This set of articles became known as the Platt Amendment, after Senator Orville Platt of Connecticut, who presented it. He sponsored this amendment as a rider attached to the Army Appropriations Bill of 1901. Cubans reluctantly included the amendment, which virtually made Cuba a U.S. protectorate, in their constitution. The Platt Amendment was also incorporated in a permanent treaty between the United States and Cuba. The Platt Amendment stipulated the conditions for U.S. intervention in Cuban affairs and permitted the United States to lease or buy lands for the purpose of the establishing naval bases (the main one was Guannamo Bay) and coaling stations in Cuba. It barred Cuba from making a treaty that gave another nation power over its affairs, going into debt, or stopping the United States from imposing a sanitation program on the island. Specifically, Article III required that the government of Cuba consent to the right of the United States to intervene in Cuban affairs forthe preservation of Cuban independence, the maintenance of a government adequate for the protection of life, property, and individual liberty, and for discharging the obligations with respect to Cuba imposed by the Treaty of Paris on the United States, now to be assumed and undertaken by the Government of Cuba The Platt Amendment supplied the terms under which the United States intervened in Cuban affairs in 1906, 1912, 1917, and 1920. By 1934, rising Cuban nationalism and widespread criticism of the Platt Amendment resulted in its repeal as part of Franklin D. Roosevelt's Good Neighbor policy toward Latin America. The United States, however, retained its lease on Guannamo Bay, where a naval base was established. Source: NARA Citation: An Act Making appropriations for the support of the Army for the fiscal year ending June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and two, March 2, 1901; Enrolled Acts and Resolutions of Congress, 1789-; General Records of the United States Government; Record Group 11; National Archives. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Wolfgang Date: 25 Sep 07 - 10:12 AM I note that the Russians have never had the privilege of such a base in... (Little Hawk) When they had a treaty allowing such a thing they too had one, of course. They had bases all over East Europe and they had a base even in a country that was a NATO member. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Greg B Date: 25 Sep 07 - 10:14 AM Hurrah for old Gitmo on Cuba's fair shore the land of the bedbug the flea and the whore We'll sing of its praises and pray for the day we get the hell out of Guantanamo Bay |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 25 Sep 07 - 10:45 AM OH, really |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Sep 07 - 03:37 PM "They had bases all over East Europe." That was before they had a rather drastic regime change. We can but dream... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: open mike Date: 25 Sep 07 - 09:34 PM or perhaps as Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain)said "Rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated." is there still no factual news on this? i found a report of his meeting with the president of Angola yesterday, sept. 24, 2007, so i guess he is alive, if not well. picture here: http://www.cadenagramonte.cubaweb.cu/english/news/september_07/240907_01.asp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Donuel Date: 26 Sep 07 - 02:17 PM He and Fosset are probably on holiday together. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Leadbelly Date: 27 Sep 07 - 02:03 PM That's just wishful thinking. Bur even if so, it would not change anything on Cuba. Give them another chance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: EBarnacle Date: 27 Sep 07 - 03:10 PM Brst in mind that Castro came to power shortly after the Red Scare of the 50's. There was no way that any American administration could have set up relations with him without appearing "weak on da Commies." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Sep 07 - 03:21 PM Which in itself is an indication of a rather lily-livered approach to international politics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Barry Finn Date: 28 Sep 07 - 01:44 AM Still is McGrath! Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Ron Davies Date: 28 Sep 07 - 11:30 AM Lily-livered or not, it was a fact of politics 1946 to 1989. And JFK, among others, also certainly acted on it. He probably needlessly jeopardized the world by not agreeing to Khrushchev's publicizing the trade which the Cuban missile crisis was defused---the missiles in Cuba for US Jupiters in Turkey. Because the trade was not publicized, Khrushchev appeared weak to other Soviets--and lost power soon thereafter. JFK also made a big issue in the 1960 campaign of a "missile gap" which he knew did not exist, since he had been briefed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Sep 07 - 12:06 PM I still think that it would have be quite possible to present a supportive attitude towards the new Cuban regime as being a way of challenging the Soviet ownership of Third World leftism, analogous to the way Tito's Yugoslavia was accommodated. Is it too cynical to suspect that the crucial issue may not have been Cold War politics so much as the influence of powerful people who had lost out in the Cuban regime change? ...................... I doubt if Kruschev's rivals were ignorant of the counter-concession about Turkish missiles. Publicising it might have helped Communist parties in Italy and France perhaps. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 28 Sep 07 - 12:15 PM Why has kicking little communist Cuba always been more popular in the US than kicking fascist dictators in South America? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: Greg B Date: 28 Sep 07 - 01:51 PM Perhaps the Cuba issue is front-and-center because of the efforts of Cuban-Americans and Cuban refugees in America to keep it so. They've been an integral part of the growth of South Florida, which has itself been a real up-and-coming part of the US for the past few decades. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit ?? Fidel Castro ? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Sep 07 - 01:59 PM South Florida, which has itself been a real up-and-coming part of the US for the past few decades Until it vanishes underwater in a few more decades... |
