BS: Does Civility = Respect?

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 06:41 PM

Not that I know. Though Francis was my father's second name, so for all I know there's a link somewhere back in the 19th century.
........................................
It's always seemed to me that just because you're in a conflict, even set to kill your opponent, that's no reason to work up hate or contempt towards them. And even if you do feel like that, that'd be no valid reason to be discourteous towards them.

And if that sounds weird, consider that the alternative, arguably more sincere, approach leads directly to stuff like Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 05:39 PM

Know what you mean! theres this wonderful phrase in Orwell's essay The Hanging. 'the implication of politeness' necessary for the act of hanging someone.

You're no relation to Frank McGrath who used to play Charlie Wooster on Wagon Train, are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 03:52 PM

I'd distinguish between feeling respect and showing respect. I think that it can be important to maintain civility even when we are dealing with people for whom we can feel no respect. I don't think that we should feel that if we do nit sincerely respect someone we should feel obliged to treat them with contempt, even if we feel it.

Sincerity is not something to which we should always give full rein.

I think there is a sense in which we should always feel respect for someone as a human being, but this need not carry over into how we regard them as individuals.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 02:36 PM

... Civility without respect is tolerance maybe ...

Sincere civility, I agree, under trying circumstances, can be admirably tolerant... and sometimes, tolerance precedes greater understanding. Hm.... I think "tolerance" is the older PC word that the more courant term "respect" has been replacing. Respect is, IMO, a higher value than tolerance, BUT the gap between them can take years of intentional effort to span. So I think that the "respect" we might wish as a universal attitude/behavior/mututal expectation is sometimes assumed to be available-now-by-intention when, in fact, it may take years to develop and may require both "sides" to make an effort in good faith. (That old instant-gratification thing in our present societies again!)

Oh crap [she realizes, gomorrahfied, she just wrote "good faith"]-- I'm getting glassy-brained again-- "faith" has those pesky multiple (loaded) meanings as well.....

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: Mr Red
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 12:44 PM

No.

I am trying hard and, I think, managing well to be civil to someone in the face of denegration - nothing earth-shattering but how can you respect someone who shouts at you in public with some barbed comment that is a wee bit off the mark.

Well, I would respect them if they said to me - I disagree with what you say. Rather than childish jibes driven by who knows waht hidden agenda.

Civility without respect is tolerance maybe. A good Folkie trait, I submit.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 08:29 PM

I meant the last bit of the first paragraph.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 05:55 PM

That last bit was a bit sectarian I thought...

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 02:35 PM

Sometimes it is actual facts that are being misrepresented, tho, Don, not matters of faith. I think that's due to the failure of people to realize that "church" is a much bigger territory with much more diversity than the grandstanding they fall for from the rigid religious right, and a much more generally-positive territory than some folks' raised-Catholic or raised-fundie memories.

Regardless-- it's no place for rational, respectful discourse though it sure can be "civil."

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: John Hardly
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 01:59 PM

au contraire.

I never stop testing my faith. My faith is based upon a set of potentially assailable facts. If those facts were proven wrong to me I would no longer believe as I do. I do not, as you claim, hold to faith in spite of facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: MMario
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 01:58 PM

ouch!

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 01:41 PM

Susan, I share that feeling, but there is really no point in putting forward facts in the face of "faith".

It's just a waste of breath, my dear.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 10:22 AM

"Religion" threads here tend to be so "civil" and yet so ignorantly disrespectful of my daily experience that I just peek in and leave them alone as much as I can stand to. It's too bad, since there is a lot of misinformation in them, but they're just cumulatively yucky to even try to wade in with any actual facts. When I'm around similar in-person discussions my eyes and my whole brain just sorta glaze over.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 10:51 PM

I've been mulling how "civility" and "respect" may look and feel very different from different class or cultural backgrounds-- coming and going. Some of the most respect-laden, blue-collar speech I've ever received, for example, has been pungent enough to offend many more middle-class folks' sensibilities.

And I remember one dinner out, here in our area, with a visitor from Harrisburg. He was astounded and silently uncomfortable when we answered the waitress' query how our meal was. "Awful," either Hardi or I grinned. The visitor gagged, but the waitress beamed-- we were on the same backwards-compliment wavelength with her that is so much the usual form of appreciation here. Our visitor eventually learned to speak in such terms (sort of), but it took years of diligent study on his part. :~)

Another example was a thread in recent months where a number of us took turns saying, "Bite me," or Catspaw's "kick him in the balls" affection.

So I think it is very interesting how the same communication effort, perceived by two or more people, can be Rashomon all over again.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 07:39 PM

Sorry. I sometimes find that when comments touch me emotionally, I don't take the time to proof read my posts as I should.

Here are the corrected second and third sentences to my 11 Sep 07 - 07:33 PM post to this thread:

This meaning is far different from the definition you gave to that phrase: [a person who uses that phrase means] "I've nit-picked one phrase you just said/wrote and I am going to soapbox in opposition of that one point, out of context, ad nauseum."

Of course, when you wrote your 11 Sep 07 - 05:42 PM comment on this thread, you may not have had in mind the comment that I made at 11 Sep 07 - 01:37 PM on the "RE: How much Folk Music is there?" thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 07:33 PM

Susan, when I use "with all due respect", as I did today in this comment that I addressed to you thread.cfm?threadid=104631&messages=69#2146530, I meant that I respect the work that you have done on Mudcat in the area of African American spirituals. However, I disagree with a central point that you have made about that subject.

This meaning of far different from the definition you gave to that phrase: [a person who uses that phrase means] "I've nit-picked one phrase you just said/wrote and I am going to soapbox in opposition of that one point, out of context, ad nauseum."

Of course, when you wrote your post 11 Sep 07 - 05:42 PM comment on this thread, you may not have had the comment I made at 11 Sep 07 - 01:37 PM on the RE: How much Folk Music is there? thread.

Be that as it may, since I used the phrase "with all due respect" today, and since I have used that phrase at other times, I feel the need to speak up in defense of the civility of that phrase.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 06:33 PM

Lots of those - eg "It goes without saying..." or "I'd be the last one to criticise..." Or writing "Dear" at the start of a letter, for that matter

But I think that meaningless formulae like that do take the edges of disputes, and I don't think that is necessarily a bad idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:42 PM

When a statement starts with, "With all due respect," in my experience it usually indicates, "I've nit-picked one phrase you just said/wrote and I am going to soapbox in opposition of that one point, out of context, ad nauseum." It reminds me of other start-off phrases like "Believe me!" and "Honestly," and such.

Ain't.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 11:06 AM

I can't honestly say I agree with that J.H. I don't believe that the Mudcat necessarily would classify as civility, all that it is prepared to accept as tolerable within the subculture.

Nor is it necessary that it should. It's enough, surely that members of the group see no reason to object, while not necessarily approving.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 09:41 AM

Sincerity is what's really important. Once you can fake that, you've got it made.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: John Hardly
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 09:41 AM

"!. Civility is an expression of one's respect for current customs and mores. In this form, it doesn't matter who or what the recipient may be. It expresses the level of training in good manners and behaviour of the donor.

2. Respect for the law. Self explanatory, it prevents me from bashing you over the head if I don't like you, and hopefully prevents a pre-emptive strike by you, on my cranium.

3. Respect for the individual. You have to EARN that, by being, or doing, something that I find admirable. Anyone who earns that kind of respect is very likely to be socially compatible and to form a lasting friendship with the giver."

Civility is also measured by its subcultural context as well as its cultural context. The mudcat, as a subculture, accepts as civil a great degree of what the general culture would perceive as incivility...

...right up until it doesn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: MMario
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 09:20 AM

Civility is a concrete reality of courtesy offered and received

Add "apparant" before courtesy and I'll agree with that. All too often there is little to no true courtesy involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: Slag
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 04:23 AM

"A soft answer turneth away wrath."

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 08:03 PM

"I wish our language had as many words for shadings of respect as other languages have for the different kinds of snow. That little word means something STRONG for each of us, I think, but something different for most of us. How can we have it, mutually, in real interactions, if we can't even wrap our collective minds around it as an abstract?

~Susan "


Yes Susan,

It comes down to how many kinds of respect you recognise.

IMHO:-

!. Civility is an expression of one's respect for current customs and mores. In this form, it doesn't matter who or what the recipient may be. It expresses the level of training in good manners and behaviour of the donor.

2. Respect for the law. Self explanatory, it prevents me from bashing you over the head if I don't like you, and hopefully prevents a pre-emptive strike by you, on my cranium.

3. Respect for the individual. You have to EARN that, by being, or doing, something that I find admirable. Anyone who earns that kind of respect is very likely to be socially compatible and to form a lasting friendship with the giver.

So the answer to the question?........Yes, in one way, but not in all.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 06:41 PM

I suspect most people in 'people' jobs would settle for civility. Civility is a concrete reality of courtesy offered and received. Respect is really an abstract concept. Who can see the inner working of a man's heart and know if he truly respects you?

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: GUEST,Beyonce
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 07:45 PM

I think civility dose equal respect

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 03:59 PM

Mmario - that's called Sulking. A great skill.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: GUEST,ClaireBear, logged out
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 03:48 PM

My father had a saying that I try to apply in my own life -- not original to him, but I can't locate its source. I think it fits in quite nicely here, though it's about courtesy rather than civility:

"Courtesy is counterfeit -- with which it would be foolish to be thrifty."

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: MMario
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 03:47 PM

Someone can be both very disrespectful and very rude and insulting while remaining perfectly civil.

Movies and literature are both full of examples.

Life is as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 03:43 PM

So often when civility is received, respect is assumed. "You were so nice that I thought you agreed or at least understood where I was coming from!"

Also, when civility is offered, there often seems to be the expectation that the recipient will receive it as respect: "I was polite, so why are you accusing me of disrespect?" Yet the recipient of the civility may (accuately or inaccurately) may respond that they feel they have been very DISrespected.

Intent, action, and reaction-- a loop with many broken pieces strung toether?

The language limitations sure make it hard to sort out!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 07:41 PM

Great thread. I can be a lot more civil to than I can respect some people, that's for sure! Maybe if we all went for being civil to people of other views, rather than respecting all other views, we'd get a lot farther.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 02:54 PM

you don't have much chance of discovering if there is anything you can respect in a person, if you can't be civil in the first place.

that's the trouble with these threads where people have really entrenched views. the superficial hostility frequently conceals the fact that you are both just different lines of defence - defending the very same point.

some people have been glaring over the parapet so long, they're prickly about every damn thing. everything on the horizon gets a volley in its direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 08:40 PM

I smile when I'm angry


Leonard Cohen

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: gnu
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 06:37 PM

... and a GPS.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 06:33 PM

I can be civil to you and respect your humanity while knowing that you are a scum-sucking, sewer-dwelling, toadying licklespittle who couldn't find his butt with both hands, a map, a flashlight, a mission statement, and a qualified guide.

I can be civil to you and respect your humanity while knowing that you are a scum-sucking, sewer-dwelling, toadying licklespittle who couldn't find his way OUT of his butt with both hands, a map, a flashlight, a mission statement, and a qualified guide.

:~)

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 05:30 PM

I can be civil to you and respect your humanity while knowing that you are a scum-sucking, sewer-dwelling, toadying licklespittle who couldn't find his butt with both hands, a map, a flashlight, a mission statement, and a qualified guide.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 10:59 PM

Civility is a means of self-preservation. If we don't behave in a civil fashion toward someone, we greatly increase the chances that he will harm us. So, I guess that does mean civility equates to respect. If we have sufficient respect for someone's ability to do harm to us, we'll probably be civil in our dealings with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: Alba
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 10:58 PM

All of civility depends on being able to contain the rage of individuals.
Joshua Lederberg

Well said Josh.
*grin*

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: Slag
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 10:25 PM

Civility is a social lubricant and can also be a good camouflage.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: Greg B
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 10:14 PM

Sometimes civility is a tool used by those in power to bait the
underdogs into behaving in an 'uncivil' manner. They then use
that opportunity to distract from the actual issue.

A great case-in-point is the Catholic Church's treatment of the
survivors of clergy abuse.

They steeple their fingers and talk about 'forgiveness' and
'charity' towards the abusers.

When the abused turn out to leaflet churches or tell the truth
in the press, they are accused of being 'uncharitable' or of
being 'un-Christian.'

An analog to this is the treatment of women during their campaign
for their civil rights. When they didn't simply respond to being
told to 'go to hell' in a civil manner, and enjoy the journey, they
were then 'un-lady-like' and so on.

All too often, 'incivility' is a word used by those in power to
undermine the valid arguments of those who refuse to be 'good
victims.'

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: GUEST,The Caretaker
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 09:51 PM

You mean baby killing, Dick?

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 07:51 PM

Frank-
I think we can agree. too, but not necessarily with everyone. I don't think that abortion is, in all cases, blatantly anti-social. Many folks do.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 07:13 PM

Dick, I think we can agree on what constitutes anti-social behavior. This is behavior that does injury physically or psychologically that is abusive to someone else.

Wearing funny clothes doesn't qualify or even expressing an idea that might be offensive to some. Even flipping the bird or calling someone a name can be treated with civility without having to resort to reprisals particularly of a violent nature.

Civility is what is absent in our discourse on almost everything these days. As a result, we see little respect shown for others who disagree with us.

I think a person can be civil even hating someone else's guts and that this is a sign of civility which is civilized behavior.

Susan is right when she says that we need different shades of meanings for words. We also need to define "civility" and "respect".

As a result, the conversation goes no where because there are no common frame of references for which to carry on a decent conversation.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 06:11 PM

I wish our language had ads many words for shadings of respect as other languages have for the different kinds of snow. That little word means something STRONG for each of us, I think, but something different for most of us. How can we have it, mutually, in real interactions, if we can't even wrap our collective minds around it as an abstract?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: GUEST,The Caretaker
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 05:58 PM

I can totally disrespect you and everything you stand for, and still be civil about it.

Why do I have to respect you if I hate your guts?

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 05:53 PM

Frank-
"This doesn't mean that you don't intervene if someone does something blatantly anti-social or destructive." Aye, there's the rub. What's blatantly anti-social to me may well be normal and supportive to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: peregrina
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 04:52 PM

Don't know if they are equivalent and I'm intrigued by the posts above on both sides. But it does often seem to me that there is an erosion of civility in British public discourse, whether the Today Show interviews, or parliamentary discussion and questions where personal insults and ridicule take the place of sustained focus on substance. So I reckon civility is one of civilization's discontents, at the least a means to an end, and sometimes but not always a good in itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 04:43 PM

I disagree with all of the above. Civility is acting in a civilized manner. To do this, you have to have some respect for others.

I think the problem is the definition of respect. To me this doesn't mean agreeing or even liking someone else. It means respecting the rights of others to do what they have to do.
This doesn't mean that you don't intervene if someone does something blatantly anti-social or destructive.

R.E.S.P.E.C.T. Otherwise you can't respect yourself.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: Slag
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 02:03 AM

Civility is social lubricant. It can also be good camouflage.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 05:39 PM

I think that it certainly doesn't. And I believe that the difference is the point I've been trying to make to Bill in that other thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Civility = Respect?
From: Bee
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 04:14 PM

They don't equate. I can be very civil to someone I have little respect for. Civility is what we employ to avoid conflict, and may be a response to the respect we feel for others (and ourselves), who might be adversely affected by our lack of civility (which lack might lead to conflict).