BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC

Subject: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 03:17 PM

WE all here at mudcat have tossed in our 2 cents worth about the war, here's a chance to do something about it. There will be another protest/demonstration at the nations captail this Sept 15th. Buses will be leaving from major cities from across the US, set up by Answer (Act Now To Stop The War and End Racism). Hopefully some of us can make this.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: kendall
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 04:00 PM

If George Bush was the only one in the world who wanted to continue this mess, he would do so no matter what.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 04:35 PM

Barry, up here in Alaska we need more lead time. For instance, if I tried to make it to Washington on September 15, my plane ticket would cost around $800. If I had three weeks lead, it would come down to between $500 and $600.

Good grief. I just checked. What a dreamer I am. Here is what the schedule says: $918.20 including taxes & fees

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 06:40 PM

Man, geeze oh man... I've got an afternoon gig that day...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 07:40 PM

Gotta go gotta go gotta go right now, gotta go gotta go gotta go (now, it's a music thread!)

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Barry Finn
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 06:57 PM

Not generating much interest (sigh)

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Peace
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 06:58 PM

I figure if I got into the US I'd never get out. Don't fancy spending the little time I have left in Guantanamo.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Barry Finn
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 07:17 PM

I'm afraid that I won't be able to get out when I need to.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Nickhere
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 07:21 PM

Well the best of luck to you Barry! I'd go if I could afford to get to the US and wasn't already going to travel to another country the same day (plane tickets booked already). Besides, like Peace, I'm not sure I'd get out once in, unless I was given nice new orange clothes etc.,

But I give you my moral support and wish you all the best. We'll be having our own demonstrations here in due course. I was watching old footage of an anti-Vietnam demo from back in the 70s and noticed they went all the way up the steps of Capitol Hill. I wonder would they get so far today? These days it seems our 'leaders' have learned from experience and manage to keep their beloved subjects as far as away as possible with barbed wire, armed guards etc.,

Let me know how it goes! More power to you!

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 01:34 AM

Very handy having a foreign passport in these troubled times...

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: skipy
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 04:39 AM

Type    irack   into youtube.
Skipy
Sorry if this has been posted before.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 07:07 PM

For all the "Stop the War" crowd, who have given their excuses for not being able to attend, whether it be because of the price or because you have got "gigs" too important to cancel - The Man has spoken - you can do something to "Stop the War" that will not cost you a penny, which will not involve you missing important prior commitments - Convert to Islam.

Plain, simple, easy, do that and he and his organisation will cease working 24/7/52 working out the best ways to kill you - All you have to do is convert to Islam.

Now how many takers have we? You do want to stop the war don't you, and this is a much more effective way of doing it than going for a walk in Washington. You are sincere when you say that you want to do something to "Stop the War"

Here's what the Man has said, according to the BBC:

'Bin Laden' urges US to convert

Bin Laden looks drawn and tired in the video
A new video tape purportedly made by al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden has urged the American people to embrace Islam in order to stop the war in Iraq.

Date references suggest it may have been made as recently as this summer, US officials studying the tape said.

They also say the speaker makes no overt threats against the US.

The release of the tape comes ahead of the sixth anniversary of the 11 September attacks. Bin Laden has not been seen in a video since 2004.

'Two choices'

US intelligence officials have yet to confirm the authenticity of the latest 30-minute tape, a short excerpt of which was aired by al-Jazeera TV on Friday evening.

It appears to show Bin Laden sitting at a table, dressed in a white robe and turban and beige cloak. His beard looks shorter and darker than in the video issued in 2004.

You made one of your greatest mistakes, in that you neither brought to account nor punished those who waged this war [in Iraq]

Beneath him a banner reads in English "A message from Sheikh Osama Bin Laden to the American people".

The speaker makes no overt threats to the US and did not directly call for attacks, according to transcripts of the tape obtained by several media organisations in the United States.

Instead, he tells the American people that they have failed to persuade the Bush administration to stop the war in Iraq.

"You made one of your greatest mistakes, in that you neither brought to account nor punished those who waged this war," the speaker in the tape says, according to the transcript obtained by ABC News.

"You permitted Bush to complete his first term, and stranger still, chose him for a second term, which gave him a clear mandate from you... to continue to murder our people in Iraq and Afghanistan".

The speaker tells the American public that there are two ways to end the war in Iraq: "The first is from our side, and it is to continue to escalate the killing and fighting against you."

The second way, he continues, is to reject America's democratic system and convert to Islam.

"It has now become clear to you and the entire world the impotence of the democratic system and how it plays with the interest of the peoples and their blood by sacrificing soldiers and populations to achieve the interests of the major corporations".

"I invite you to embrace Islam," the speaker says.

'New plots'

Correspondents say a new video would serve to dispel persistent rumours that the al-Qaeda leader has died.

Al-Qaeda is focusing on targets that would produce mass casualties, dramatic destruction and significant economic aftershocks.

The US Department of Homeland Security said it had no credible information of an imminent threat in the wake of the video announcement.

Deputy State Department spokesman Tom Casey said: "I don't think that anything he is likely to say or do is going to change our resolve or the resolve of our international partners to confront extremism."

But in a speech to the Council on Foreign Relations in New York on Friday, CIA director Michael Hayden warned that al-Qaeda was plotting new attacks on the US.

"Our analysts assess with high confidence that al-Qaeda's central leadership is planning high impact plots against the American homeland," he said.

"Al-Qaeda is focusing on targets that would produce mass casualties, dramatic destruction and significant economic aftershocks."

Now please note the following:

1) No reference to the attacks made previously on the USA and other countries - In the man's own words, Al-Qaeda's actions have been brought about by - Our (i.e. us in the West) inaction, to whit, "you neither brought to account nor punished those who waged this war" - The lying Arab twat typically omits to mention that he instigated the attacks that resulted in the war to which he refers.

2) He then goes on to explain your culpability in the number of civilian deaths in both Afghanistan and in Iraq, i.e. by allowing GWB to be elected for a second term you voted to, "continue to murder our people in Iraq and Afghanistan." - Again the lying Arab twat omits to acknowledge that the bulk of civilian muslim deaths are being caused by his side. They hit innocent civilians because the MNF in both Afghanistan and in Iraq tend to shoot back so Al-Qaeda do not willingly seek them out and fight them.

3) He points out, "the impotence of the democratic system". But fails to explain why if it is indeed so impotent, why he is in the position of hiding in caves and altering his appearance. Perhaps its a fashion statement. Now all you "Stop the War" advocates are you prepared to convert to Islam, abandon this democracy crap and live under Sharia law? Let's hear who's up for it.

4) The lying Arab twat does not however always lie - "Al-Qaeda is focusing on targets that would produce mass casualties, dramatic destruction and significant economic aftershocks." - Now that we should take very seriously, particularly if you do not intend to convert to Islam. As a first resort to address the problem they will, "escalate the killing and fighting against you." Well they haven't really been all that effective in that area in the past and have resorted to murdering as many innocents as possible in order to foment a "civil war" that has failed to materialise.

No specific threats against the US! This buggers losing and he is now beginning to realise it.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 07:42 PM

"The lying Arab twat typically omits to mention that he instigated the attacks that resulted in the war to which he refers."

Now I know you think I'll believe any shit Mr T, but that statement really strains my credulity.

The new Teribus has ditched "facts" for fiction....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Peace
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 07:45 PM

"Convert to Islam" my ass! The fuc#er can kiss my Royal Canadian!

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 08:09 PM

Which war?

Apparently the Korean War is still on (for the US anyway).

But Bush appeared on an aircraft carrier 5 years ago and stated the Iraq war was over.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: bobad
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 08:31 PM

Jesus loves Osama

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 04:43 AM

If you weren't so selective in your quotes Akenaton maybe the strain on your credulity wouldn't be so great.

But take a look at this because it a classic example of what is said as opposed to what is reported, and nobody in their right mind who has watched and listened over the past six years could ever accuse the BBC of being pro-GWB.

From the quoted BBC Article:

"It appears to show Bin Laden sitting at a table, dressed in a white robe and turban and beige cloak. His beard looks shorter and darker than in the video issued in 2004.

You made one of your greatest mistakes, in that you neither brought to account nor punished those who waged this war [in Iraq](1)

Beneath him a banner reads in English "A message from Sheikh Osama Bin Laden to the American people".

The speaker makes no overt threats to the US and did not directly call for attacks, according to transcripts of the tape obtained by several media organisations in the United States.

Instead, he tells the American people that they have failed to persuade the Bush administration to stop the war in Iraq.(2)

"You made one of your greatest mistakes, in that you neither brought to account nor punished those who waged this war," the speaker in the tape says, according to the transcript obtained by ABC News.

"You permitted Bush to complete his first term, and stranger still, chose him for a second term, which gave him a clear mandate from you... to continue to murder our people in Iraq and Afghanistan".

The speaker tells the American public that there are two ways to end the war in Iraq: "The first is from our side, and it is to continue to escalate the killing and fighting against you."

The second way, he continues, is to reject America's democratic system and convert to Islam.

"It has now become clear to you and the entire world the impotence of the democratic system and how it plays with the interest of the peoples and their blood by sacrificing soldiers and populations to achieve the interests of the major corporations".

"I invite you to embrace Islam," the speaker says.

Point 1
Note Iraq is added in brackets by the BBC reporter but Afghanistan is not. Here it is possible that Osama Bin Laden could be referring to the "War on Terror".

Point 2
What was reportedly said not what was said verbatum. Again Iraq is mentioned but reference to Afghanistan is omitted.

So what was it that Osama Bin Laden did actually say from out of that lot:

"You made one of your greatest mistakes, in that you neither brought to account nor punished those who waged this war," the speaker in the tape says. "You permitted Bush to complete his first term, and stranger still, chose him for a second term, which gave him a clear mandate from you... to continue to murder our people in Iraq and Afghanistan". The speaker tells the American public that there are two ways to end the war in Iraq: "The first is from our side, and it is to continue to escalate the killing and fighting against you."

"It has now become clear to you and the entire world the impotence of the democratic system and how it plays with the interest of the peoples and their blood by sacrificing soldiers and populations to achieve the interests of the major corporations".

"I invite you to embrace Islam,"

What he has said above Akenaton, if all reference to either Iraq and Afghanistan are removed, is not all that different to the Fatwah he issued against America back in the mid-1990's, guess what the circumstances were then Akenaton - No GWB - No Afghanistan - Iraq in contravention of the UN Security Council Resolutions relating to disarmament agreed to at Safwan.

How's that credulity of your's doing now?

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 05:54 PM

OK let's see where we are with those so dedicated to stopping the war:-

Barry Finn:
Seems unwilling to adapt his lifestyle to becoming a Muslim and living under the restricxtions and restraints of Sharis law.

Kendall:
Under the circumstances that occasioned it he would be perfectly right to do so. Like barry Finn above I note that you are not over enamoured with the prospect of adopting the Muslim faith and living under Sharia Law.

Ebbie:
lovely to know that your principles can be bought for as little as under $1000. Let's hear from you about how you are willing to abandon democracy and live as a Muslim, female at that, under Sharia law. Think about it that is all you have to do to stop the bloodshed - come on Ebbie, that must be worth the sacrifice, mustn't it?

Bobert:
Much as I hate to admit this - there possibley may be other "gigs", that is until the US version of the Taleban prohit the playing of music (which they did in Afghanistan). Tell us Bobert how would you cope as a Miuslim

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 05:59 PM

Apologies hit the "Submit" button too early.

To continue:

Tell us Bobert how would you cope as a Muslim operating under Sharia Law - probably very well as you seem to have tremendous difficulty living under your present regime.

All the rest seem to be non-US citizens so they are only chewing the cud.

But for those of you who live in the good ol' US of A, who want to "Stop the War" why won't you take this man up on his offer?

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Peace
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 06:00 PM

I also want the war stopped. The fact that I think Osama bin Laden is a no-good asshole doesn't change the fact that good men are being killed in both places because of a screwed-up, ill-planned set of wars. I think ObL deserves 150 grains in the head. But there are a few other 'leaders' around who also deserve the same, rotten bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Peace
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 06:33 PM

AND, it's good to see you back posting, Teribus. I have missed you over the past while.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Barry Finn
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 02:20 AM

Hi Teribus
Even though you are what you are, I'd like your kids to come home safely too. I do know that you need to defend what they fight for no matter the reason or cost. Good luck in all your personel battles.
Good nite.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 03:04 AM

Amen to Jason - killed in thi dyupid war 2007 by a suicide bomber....

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 01:23 PM

Well, as you know Mr T, I don't think much of our version of democracy. So it might be worth taking Osama up on his offer.

Quite a number of singers have converted to Islam my favourite Richard Thompson being one.
Anything that Richard endorses must be worth a look don't you think?

As I dontwant to take over anyone's country dont like drug dealers, prostitution or any other form of capitalism I think I would fit in fine
Just call me ShAke

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 06:26 PM

Those of you who are going, please be careful! This just came in my email with an almost eight minute video. Be sure to watch it all the way to near the end where a cop comes riding up on his horse, straight into the crowd of press people and poster-hangers, riding his horse into them at a trot. Damn this administration, it is past time to take back our country!! Maybe we need to ask our allies to invade OUR country to help us do so!

While the momentum for the Sept. 15 Peace/Impeachment demonstration grows, the Bush Administration is going to extraordinary lengths to suppress the mobilizing for this mass demonstration.

Less than 18 hours ago, National Park Service Police turned a September 15 Press Conference, held in front of the White House, into a chaotic scene. On the pretext that there was no permit for a three foot long folding table that the media placed their microphones on, the police intervened in the middle of the press conference to announce that it was an unpermitted activity. Three people were arrested and are still being held in jail. They include Adam Kokesh, an Iraq war veteran; Tina Richards of Grassroots America; and Ian Thompson an ANSWER Coalition organizer.

This is form the youtube info:

On September 6, 2007, Adam Kokesh (IVAW) and Tina Richards (Grassroots America) were arrested in Washington, D.C. for defying a federal government ban on posting promotional material for the September 15th Antiwar Rally, to be held in this city. The rally is sponsored by the ANSWER coalition. The arrests took place at the corner of H. St. and Jackson Place NW, near Lafayette Park, just north of the White House. Mr. Kokesh is the co-chair elect of the Iraq Veterans Against the War. Marine Mom Richards is the CEO of Grassroots America. The activists placed promotional posters on a traffic box, which supposedly falls under the jurisdiction of the U.S. Department of Interior and the National Parks Service. Recently, the District of Columbia government imposed draconian fines on the ANSWER coalition for placing political literature around town. As a result, the ANSWER coalition has filed a lawsuit in Federal Court challenging the Constitutionality of the local government's action. For more background on this important First Amendment issue, go to: http://answer.pephost.org/site/PageSe..., http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoXkow..., http://www.ivaw.org/ and http://grassrootsamerica4us.org/.
Also arrested at the scene by the Park Police was Ian Thompson. He is with the ANSWER coalition's LA division. Mr. Thompson is also an attorney.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Nickhere
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 07:40 PM

Teribus: "What he has said above Akenaton, if all reference to either Iraq and Afghanistan are removed, is not all that different to the Fatwah he issued against America back in the mid-1990's"

Teribus, I don't really want to get into a long-winded histo-political debate, but Ake' is right about your dispensal of the facts. Bear in mind that the US had already planted its troops on Saudi soil in 1990 with the agreement of the corrupt and dictatorial Saudi govt, but against the wishes of the majority of Saudis for whom Saudi Arabia is sacred soil (whether they are right or wrong about that, that's how they feel about it - try and imagine how you'd feel if you saw some Arab-types trampling the stars and stripes, it'll help you to understand the sentiment). That IS one of the major bones of contention among Islamic recruits to al-Qaeda, most of whom seem to hail from....funnily enough, Saudi Arabia. Then of course the US invaded Iraq for the first time in 1991, and had been bombing that country regularly (while based in and around Saudi Arabia) for several years by the time al-Qaeda got underway with THEIR bombings. So Osama is more or less right about his chronology anyway.

But apart from that, you'd be right in guessing that I. among others, would not fancy living under sword and sharia law....anymore than we'd like it if the entire western hemisphere was being run as a giant Utah. So, when is Bush going to start dropping some bombs and sending the troops into Salt Lake City? But you're always looking at the extremes. Did Russia need to be bombed into submission for communism to collapse? The yanks wouldn't have dared, not with Russia's nuclear arsenal lying in wait. Countries like Iraq are much softer targets, and anyway, now Bush is trying hard to get the Iraqis to do his fighting for him.

But I don't think that's the issue anymore. The world is not about to turn into an Isalmic fundamentalist state, so you can stop scaremongering. And bombing Iraq and Afghanistan won't do much to stop it either, indeed it's just helping prolong the agony on all sides needlessly.

The real problem now is that our own leaders have gone rogue. They start wars and meddle in people's lives so big comapnies and individuals can amass even more power and wealth while their duped cheeleaders swallow all their bullshit justifications hook line and sinker. You should start asking yourself 'what do I get out of it?' Mostly just a more and more restrictive form of 'democracy' where you are free to do and think what you're told. No, it's not as bad or as obvious as Taliban controlled Afgahnistan, before you rush to make spurious comparisons (the Taliban don't claim to be an open democracy), but try stepping out of line and you'll soon see how your life can be made more miserbale in a 100 loittle ways. And it's only going to get worse.

The anti-war movement has to set its focus much higher than in days of old - it needs, as someone said above - to wrest control of the country back into the hands of the people it's supposed to belong to - the electorate. Part of that is stopping the war. (Plus lots of other ones, such as the one in Chechnya, but that's a job especially for the Russian electorate). No true democracy should go to war without a referendum from the people (unless the enemy are coming across the border) - who afterall, are the ones who'll be doing all the dying.

There are other ways to stop Osama but I'm afraid the current way is not going to work long term.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Peace
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 07:53 PM

A recent world-wide poll showed that 61% of the Americans polled want the US out of Iraq.

Canadians want Canuck troops OUT of Afghanistan--where on a per capita basis we lose three Canadian kids for every two American kids. It's not about the respective wars so much as it is about a floundering 'plan' of how to proceed. "Invade" is NOT a plan. The fu#kin' civilians in Washington and Ottawa have done it again. I mentioned three years ago that Iraq looked lots like Vietnam to me. Starting to look like that to anyone else? Afghanistan sure as hell is. You don't fight counterinsurgent troops with battlefield troops. It's not a set-piece situation. I do not understand why units like JTF2 are not matched up with light infantry at a sniper team per platoon, sent off to do selective assassinations and then RTBed. Nail the Taliban leadership and be damned what people think. In other words, do the bloody job right or get the hell out. NOW!

A similar approach in Iraq might work. Damned thing is, the will just isn't there. I do NOT understand why any country is still even contemplating placing and leaving troops thousands of miles from real support in countries that are more trouble than they're worth. It's fu#kin' sand. Let them have it. And as for conversion to Islam--in case I wasn't clear enough earlier, "Ya gotta be kidding."

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: bobad
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 08:38 PM

"countries that are more trouble than they're worth. It's fu#kin' sand."

Isn't it all about what lies beneath the sand?

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Peace
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 08:42 PM

Hell, the stuff in the ground near Ft Mc make the fields in the mid-east look like dollops of gravy for the potatoes.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: bobad
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 08:46 PM

Yeah but like the guy who tried to hit me up in Buffalo said "I've got a lot of money in the bank but I can't get at it."

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Peace
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 08:48 PM

LOL

BUT, they ARE getting at it.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: bobad
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 08:51 PM

At a big cost, financially and environmentally.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Peace
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 09:06 PM

True. But the reason for being in Afghanistan has nothing to do with oil. Iraq, maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: bobad
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 09:20 PM

That's a good point. I agree that these wars, also Viet Nam for that matter, are being lost because of lack of political will. If you're going to do the job properly get in with the numbers and logistics you need to win then get out.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Peace
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 09:38 PM

I know you, Bobad. And I know you feel it every single time a Canuck kid gets killed over there. Our civilian leaders don't listen to the Lewis MacKenzies or the Romeo D'Allaires. For that I curse the bastards in Ottawa. But then it's never their kids, is it!

Sorry, man. I am really down and I'm gonna take a break for a while. Hope I haven't said anything to offend you.

BFN.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 10:26 PM

"Quite a number of singers have converted to Islam my favourite Richard Thompson being one.
Anything that Richard endorses must be worth a look don't you think?"

Not as long as my arse points downwards ShAke.

Not really my "dispensal" of facts either Nickhere, OsamaBin Laden has clearly stated for the umpteenth time what is required for him and his cohorts to stop their attacks, you, me, us collectively have to convert to Islam and submit ourselves to Sharia Law under a worldwide Caliphate. From my point of view again as I said to ShAke above - Not as long as my arse points downwards, these prats are responsible for more misery on this earth than anything else.

Your, "The world is not about to turn into an Isalmic fundamentalist state, so you can stop scaremongering." - Tell that to Osama and get him to act on that, you already know that he won't, when is it going to sink in, you can't negotiate with this madman, just as you couldn't negotiate with Hitler.

As Wellington once said, "There no such thing as a small war for a great country." Get in do what ever is necessary to win and get out. Might not be nice, definitely not pretty, but it is effective and does give the adherents to the other side pause for thought.

"There are other ways to stop Osama but I'm afraid the current way is not going to work long term." - fatuous rubbish, which I note that you are unprepared to embelish.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Cluin
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 12:07 AM

If five hundred thousand mothers went to Washington
And said, "Bring all of our boys home without delay!"
Would the man they came to see, say he was too busy?
Would he say he had to watch a football game?

Last train to Nuremberg
Last train to Nuremberg
Last train to Nuremberg
All on board!

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 12:44 AM

To get in and do a "proper job" whatever that is,and get out, would require the draft. I hope it doesn't come to that; for then I believe we will see armed revolution in our country.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Barry Finn
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 01:47 AM

"Proper Job"?????? There was no one, not one person interviewing for jobs or hiring help in Iraq. No body wanted us there except a few very rich & very greedy exiles & those that bought into their guick buck scam. Well it looks as if they all did make a killing, big time & we'll pay through the nose for many yrs to come.
Who was it that screemed this was nothing like Viet Nam back a few yrs ago when some of us were trying to show the similarities, now that the idiot in the White House has finally seen them it's ok to say it but it's still the same mistakes all over again & it's not OK.

Why don't we ask the folks from the Mid East to turn Christan & we'll stop invading them after 2 centuries worth of crusades. Oh, I didn't realize that this was a religious war, didn't Christ die for their sins too? Who the hell killed Christ anyway? MoHammerHead? Jews? Rome? Was it suicide by profit or Pharaoh or prophecy or just a byproduct of lead posioning or faulty leadership? What in the world did they ever do to bring down the christan world upon their heads for the past 2000 yrs? No wonder they ask us to take a look at our belief systems, they may be on to something, God knows leave either of us to our own rantings & we can muck it up as much as any one else. We are looking at mirrors hear, only we were the first ones to stick our nose into the other's home, again. And all for the want of what's in (or buried) the others back yard. Is our yard just to filled up with our own toys that we need to find greener yards & other pastures of plenty elsewhere? This is sickening & then we've got to listen to idiots that can't see past their own front door, can't even look out their own window without seeing vile in a neighbor whose only fault is that they may look different or pray to a different diety. We live in a global economy, a global neighborhood, a global enviorment now & if you aren't or can't live with that then do us all a favor & die, make yourselves extinct so the rest of life can move on.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 02:35 AM

Barry, I was using "proper job" as a paraphrase; I don't think anyone actually used those words.

There were many of us who saw the truth about this bastard and his war. It all started HERE.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Barry Finn
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 02:59 AM

I know how you were using the term "Proper War" Kat but before it got twisted into we should've done the "job right" from the start or "finished the job" I wanted to point out that there are still those that believe in the war if we could win it rather than this is a job that we never shold've applied for from the git go.

That links a sad reminder of what was obivious to so many us early on. Who whould've known that where we are today is even worst than what many of us were thinking back then.
And just when you thought it couldn't get any worst,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,here comes Sept 15th, the ugly face is starting to only now rear its head & what an ass it's gonna look like.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 11:44 AM

Thanks, Barry. I just thought I'd better clarify in case someone else said I wasn't clear.

My Rog couldn't even discuss the actions taken in Washington D.C., the ones in the video; I've never seen him so angry, esp. about the cop riding his horse right into the journalists and protest organisers.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 01:16 PM

Quite a number of singers have converted to Islam my favourite Richard Thompson being one.
Anything that Richard endorses must be worth a look don't you think?

I used to think like that, then a strange thing happened; I grew up. Are you also including cat stevens in your converted? The guy who wanted Rushdie dead for writing a book! I know you prefer totalitarian states to democracy ake but i'm beginning to think you're lost the plot completely.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 02:46 PM

Well Teribus and Shakey.......or should I say Shakibus.

I don't happen to think Islam is the most evil and dangerous thing in the world......I think Capitalism wins that prize by the proverbial mile.
Islamic fundamentalism is dangerous, but we have created IF by our foreign policy over many decades.

We are pirates, destroying cultures and civilisations in our search for people, materials, or energy to exploit.....all to keep the capitalist meat gringer turning.

If I was a religious man, I might be tempted to say ...."We reap what we sow" .... Ake

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 04:38 PM

Local Fox 5 showed the director of Iraq Veteran Affairs being arrested for posting exactly one tiny Sept 15 protest march poster on a light pole. He was arrested for defacing public property.

In NYC you must have a special license to have a protest march.
All protest licenses have been suspended until further notice.

Alex Jones was arrested for announcing the protest march for using a bull horn in NYC. Geraldo Rivera was quick to comment that Alex Jones is a Communist and Muslim sympathizer.

Special Goverment agents have orders to create an appearance of bedlam and violence coming from the protesters. They do not have permission to kill but only to cause damage, injury and pain among the protestors.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Shakey
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 04:58 PM

Actually it was shakey, not teribus.

Ake, I would expect you you to prefer islam, it's a total life system that doesn't require it's subjects to think for themselves. I presume you're not gay or a woman either are you, (straight) men do rather well under it.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 05:14 PM

Look Shakey...Lighten up I'm an atheist so I'm hardly likely to convert. That's one difference between Teribus and your good self, Mr T very occasionally shows signs of having had a sense of humour.

However, I really don't see mainstream Islam as being "bad"....all followers of "organised religion" are deluded

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Nickhere
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 06:29 PM

Teribus -

There there now, you don't need to convert to Islam etc., You don't need to convince me at any rate, I believe you. Osama can demand it all he likes, I'm not converting to Islam either, so that makes two of us. Once again, I repeat, he's the extreme end of the spectrum, just as some folks in Utah might seem a bit extreme to other branches of Christianity. But -

My points were /are - al Qaeda can demand world conversion to their brand of Islam all they like, but even if governments cave in, world populations won't, so Osama's dream will remain just that, so you can sleep safely at night.

My second point is that the US was on Saudi soil and bombing Iraq (starting under Bush senior) since the very early 1990s, before al-Qaeda rose to prominence. The US' actions in pursuing a war against their erstwhile ally had a direct influence on teh rise and rise of al-Qaeada. They had even trained some of them back in Mujahideen days! And so what do you learn if your actions create a pile of you-know-what for you? Just do more of the same!

One big problem policy makers in the US seem to have is a willingness to ally themselves with whoever is willing to help at that time against their current bete noir. They flew convicted mafia bosses back from prisons in the US to Sicily during WW2 to help 'satbilise' Sicily and the south of Italy on a local level so they could continue up the coast. In so doing, they actually managed to breathe life back into the mafia, which Mussolini had almost destroyed. Well done, lads! Afghanistan - they ally themselves with the Mujahideen against the Russians, arm them etc., and with Zia al Haq in Pakistan (see this month's National Geographic for more on that). So short sighted on target focused they don't think beyond 'winning the war'. Now they have the Taliban and al-Qaeada to deal with. What next?

Anyway, much IS made of all this Islam-a-phobia to whip up fear so people will be willing to die so rich people can get richer. I don't agree with a lot of what Michael Moore says, but he's right in Faraheit 9-11 when he makes the point that's it always the poor eejits who are persuaded to do all the dying while the Congressmen keep their own kids at home. Once again, I appeal to your reason - "What do I get out of all this?" As Cicero would say "Qui Bono?"

Yes, there are other ways to 'defeat' terrorism (to end it) and you're right - I didn't embellish. It ain't 'fatuous rubbish' IMO, and I've explored it at my usual great length in a number of other threads, on Iraq, Palestine etc., so I refer you to those.

As for al-Qaeda being "responsible for more misery than anything else" - awful and all as they are, you're just flattering them.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Nickhere
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 06:39 PM

Cluin - nice verse. Pink Floyd had an interesting song too. It went something like this

"in disused sidings the poppies entwine / while the cattle trucks lie in wait for the next time"

(Just in case anyone didn't get it, Roger Waters was saying WW2 changed nothing - it was waiting to happen over again because of the stupidity of our leaders)

Then it goes on, in another song, where Waters sings about the possibility of oepning a retirement home specifically for 'incurable despots, colonial tyrants and wasters'. He peopled it with Regan, Thatcher, Galtieri etc., but I'm sure we could easily update the list. There they could play their war games out of harm's way while the rest of the world breathed a sigh of relief.

(all of the above from "The Final Cut" 1982)

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Nickhere
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 06:44 PM

Teribus, I might also add that Donuel good post has outlined some of the fruits of Bush's policy... look at all the great benefits you get by being a good boy and cheerleading the Iraq war policy!! Your very own civil liberties being rolled back right under your nose as surely as if the Taliban were doing it. If it doesn't seem to be as harsh as the Taliban regime, bear in mind that there's a lot more civil liberties to roll back, and it requires a bit more subtelty in the West, but rolled back is what's happening. I'm not sure we'll even be able to have this converstaion in a few years' time, unless folks like you start doing SOMETHING about it now!

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 01:05 AM

"al Qaeda can demand world conversion to their brand of Islam all they like, but even if governments cave in, world populations won't, so Osama's dream will remain just that, so you can sleep safely at night." - Nickhere

Now how exactly did Osama put it Nick:
"there are two ways to end the war in Iraq: "The first is from our side, and it is to continue to escalate the killing and fighting against you."

"It has now become clear to you and the entire world the impotence of the democratic system and how it plays with the interest of the peoples and their blood by sacrificing soldiers and populations to achieve the interests of the major corporations".

"I invite you to embrace Islam,"

So Nick going on your advice the attacks against innocents would not abate - so much for "sleeping safely at night". I much prefer it the way things are at present with this dipstick running and hiding in a different hole every night, and his "loyal troops" tied down and committed to fighting battles not of their own choosing. Al-Qaeda in Iraq are very much on the back foot and the Taleban in Afghanistan are being hammered.

US funding and training of the Mujahadeen - Leftist Myth

The main reason Osama and Al-Qaeda came to prominence was because the House of Saud and the Rulers of Kuwait turned down Osama's offer to use his fighters to bring down Saddam. Instead the rulers of both Kuwait and Saudi Arabia relied on a more conventional approach through the Security Council and Member States of the United Nations. But as usual the mandate given was mealy-mouthed and did not address the real problem in the area, and once passed, the resolutions that Saddam agreed to at Safwan were not followed through on or enforced.

My civil liberties have been rolled back have they Nick - Can't say as I've noticed. And you lot still seem to be able to say and do whatever you want, so, you can "sleep safely at night."

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 02:28 AM

You haven't noticed because you are blind.
Go to any airport, noticed any changes?
Go to join a protest, noticed any changes?
Go to the post office & mail an over seas packages, notice any changes?
Try & get a new passport!
Try opening a bank account for you under 18 aged kid!
Try applying for a new job!
Try walking into any federal building!
Try taking a train or a bus that's not part of the local transportation system!
If your health insurance hasn't been updated since 9/11 it needs to be along with your personnal info with banking instutitions.
Have you sent a kid off to college lately? There's new personnal info that you need to suppy in order to have your kid accepted of to recieve grants, scholarships & loans.
Have you tried to buy a house lately

How could you not notice the differences, the yoke, the noose is tighter now than ever. You don't live in the US do you T, you have kids in the service instead of college, don't you T?
It's ok, no need to reply. No need to notice either.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 12:59 PM

Let's see how I do shall we Baz:

You haven't noticed because you are blind. - No

Go to any airport, noticed any changes? - Airport security, been around for some time over this side of the pond Barry, about 35 years, most that being in the days when, Plastic Paddy's, like yourself, over in the good ol' US of A were throwing money at group of prats so that they could blow up innocent civilians over here.

Go to join a protest, noticed any changes? - Must admit, I've never taken part in a street protest, I regard it as about the lamest, most ineffective form of protest there is. But as all those of a similar persuasion to your own always say that they are mobbed and thus represent the "will of the people", it can't be too difficult to join one.

Go to the post office & mail an over seas packages, notice any changes? - No

Try & get a new passport! - No difference, mind you I do get mine at the UK Embassy and they tend to be very good at renewals.

Try opening a bank account for you under 18 aged kid! - None of my children are under eighteen, but I had no trouble opening a couple of them for my God-daughters.

Try applying for a new job! - Haven't applied for a new job in the last seven years. Mark you in my particular business getting a job anywhere in the world now is relatively easy. Everybody is undermanned.

Try walking into any federal building! - Similar comments to your airport security

Try taking a train or a bus that's not part of the local transportation system! - No problem over here at all - Over here being all over Europe

If your health insurance hasn't been updated since 9/11 it needs to be along with your personnal info with banking instutitions. - national health Barry, banks have asked me no further details since I opened the accounts

Have you sent a kid off to college lately? There's new personnal info that you need to suppy in order to have your kid accepted of to recieve grants, scholarships & loans. - ALL my children have been through University, Barry, youngest graduated lasy July, But I can't remeber anything untoward in the questions asked relating to their admissions or their student loans.

Have you tried to buy a house lately - No

How could you not notice the differences, the yoke, the noose is tighter now than ever. I haven't noticed the difference Baz because there have been no differences to notice

You don't live in the US do you T, you have kids in the service instead of college, don't you T? - No, you are quite right Barry, I don't live in the US. I take it that the jibe about my kids being in the service is the tired old leftist stereotype that if you are in the forces you are too dumb to go to college - pathetic. fact is that my sone went to University got his degree then enlisted.

Noted any of the replies Barry?

My "civil rights" are so far remain unthreatened and undiminished.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 02:08 PM

All your replies are noted T, you seem to be happy enough with them & happy enough to live with them & hopefully you'll never want for better or for more, it's to bad that you've had to live with these these infringment to your rights to privacy, freedom to travel freely without question or fear of being denied access to transportation & as for the rest if you had lived here you would notice the change & we here are not happy about, hopefully you will never have the disire to visit US to see what is now & what once was.
Keep on with your eyes closed to the rest of the world & stay where you are, you seem to be most comfortable in your shell.

"My "civil rights" are so far remain unthreatened and undiminished."

I find it hard to belive that things in your part of the world haven't changed at all since 9/11. I do know that you've had to live with the facts of life that terrorism brings a lot longer than we have in the US but I believe that when it came to your doorstep it changed quite a bit. I was in Ireland many yrs ago & saw what a fenced in Belfast was like to live in but that was in Ireland & not England so that wouldn't concern you & your little world would it.
Good nite Teribus & dream on baby.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 11:30 AM

Teribus :" Must admit, I've never taken part in a street protest, I regard it as about the lamest, most ineffective form of protest there is."

I'm dying to hear what you consider to be the most effective form of protest. Maybe we can learn something from you!

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 12:50 PM

Well, I guess it was pretty lame in China, in Tiananmen Square. Maybe someone should have told the union workers in Poland how lame it was. Then there's those pesky folks in the south who marched and protested for civil rights. Guess it was pretty lame of Martin Luther King and the others to take to the streets in protest, eh? Oh, and those stupid women who marched for the right to vote. What in the world were they thinking?!

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 10:41 PM

I don't live in England any more but did for many years and still visit regularly......I remember the IRA bombings and it was terrifying at the time but somehow, what is going on right now is so much more frightening.......

- I know on both sides of the pond when you fly it takes you much longer and you must go further before you can throw your arms around your loved ones.....
- street protest - no comment as I don;t know
- go to the Post Office - most packages we send either way now have been opened and checked
- my son has British and American citizenship -- we foolishly let his British passport expire and we -- about 8 months after we started the process - STILL do not have his new British passport although we are more optimistic than we were
- I haven't opened an account for an under 18 year old recently but try renting an apartment for anyone under 20 - tough
- new job - no comment
- federal building -- I put up a thread about getting my green card renewed via Department of Homeland Security -- can't remember what it was called but the experienece was horrendous

....and on, and on -- and on.......I find it hard to understand (not hard to believe just hard to understand....) that someone wouldn't find it different - tighter - meaner than it was

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Nickhere
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 08:12 PM

Well Teribus, I'm still waiting for your insights into what the most effective form of protest is. Perhaps you find it easier to curse the darkness than light a candle?

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Nickhere
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 08:47 PM

Oh, and on the topic of freedom and democracy, see

Oh What a Lovely War on Terror

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 08:56 AM

Well, sniff...

As I said earlier in this thread, I can't be there in person because I've been booked to play the Page County Farm Market today but...

... I will be there in spirit...

For those of who who will be there, give 'um the dickens an' be sure to get a head count of the Bushite "counter demonstration" which, inspite of it's small numbers, will get equal press...

I remember in the January event just before Bush ordered up the invasion there were somewhere around 500,000 anti war demonstrators and maybe 50 Bushite and the Bushites got as much ink as the half a million...

Normal...

And they say the press is liberal??? Haha...

Out of Iraq Now!!!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Barry Finn
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 01:42 PM

'Sniff' here too Bobert, I started this thread thinking I'd be there today but I couldn't. Hope all goes well & that the tyrn out & the "die-in" does well.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Peace
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 04:38 PM

Article worth reading and acting on.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 05:43 AM

Go on America! Make the world proud of you.....

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 10:12 AM

As per usaul, I saw on the news that a "few" thousand anti-war demonsrators showed up and an "unspecified" number of Bushite war mongers... They each got equal time on this morning s TV news...

So if things went on as has in the past, I'd say that means maybe 30,000 anti-war folks and 50 or so knotheads...

So much for that liberal bias that the media is accused of having???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Peace
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 12:52 PM

Yeah. Those three anti-war protestors sure were lonely.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Peace
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 01:12 PM

So, uh, who were the 29,997 other folks with those protestors? Wannabes?

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Peace
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 01:14 PM

Secret Service and Homeland Security personnel? The over-time pay for that is gonna be a whopper!

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 02:32 PM

Did it work? I think the war is still going.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 06:15 PM

Did it stop the war??? NO...

Did it work??? Yeah, it reminded people that this is an ill-thought-out campaign...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Barry Finn
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 02:05 AM

There seems to be a difference in numbers reported, as usual. The government no longer gives out numbers, much less anything else. Answer Coalition says 100,000, the papers vary from a few thousand to 30,000 & anywhere inbetween. The pictures I've seen& the discriptions I've read it seems that, IMHO, it's more likely closer to the 100,000. Ten blocks long & shoulder to shoulder. When I was there last time the crowd was around 30,000 & it wasn't that thick nor near as long. So I guess the movement is still growing. I didn't catch anything on the TV, was it even reported? Did anyone find any kind of coverage?

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 07:32 AM

Jus' the the usual mythology on the local DC TV stations, Barry...

"Few thousand"...

BS...
But they also convienently left out the number of the knotheads which was prolly less than 50... I remeber the big one in January, '03 and there had to ba close to a half a million people... Even made the front page with a piccure and the Post siad tens of thousands... But the 35 or so Bushites got almost as much ink???

So much for the liberal bias in the press, part #3497...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 09:38 AM

But the RV said a couple thousand attended, of which 200 were arrested.

There were now pictures.

Who are we going to believe, the TV or your lieing eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: STOP THE WAR Sept 15 March On DC
From: GUEST,Cashew Butter
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 09:33 PM

As far as the "Osama Challenge" let's not lose our precious levity but keep in mind what we should all keep in mind- one would have to turn not into a Muslim but the sort of Muslim that Osama approves of- very likely a 'fundo' like himself-

And I very much doubt that Mr. Richard Thompson would find himself on Mr. Bin Laden's approval list, nor do I think he would so seek.