BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey

Subject: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 11:31 AM

What America needs is a strong third party.

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: Amos
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 11:33 AM

Bull Moose! Bull Moose!



A

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 11:35 AM

I think it Mike Barnacle who, when asked what he thought of a third party, said he'd be happy with a second one. Mind you, that was 1996, but it certainly still seems to apply.

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 11:52 AM

Well, it's obvious that greed has no party lines.

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: RangerSteve
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 11:57 AM

We had a third party candidate for Gov. in NJ a few years back. He did well for a while, especially after announcing that he wouldn't take a salary and would eliminate state taxes. It sounded good, but then someone asked him how state services would be funded. He replied that the towns and counties would have to raise their taxes. The problem with third parties is that they sometimes seem to have a need to come up with radical plans that won't work in order to seperate themselves from the other two.

And, in spite of the title of this thread, the Republicans don't have such a good track record in this state, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 12:04 PM

A good point, RangerSteve--The problem is that what sounds good and what works are two different things. And sometimes, politicians can't even manage to sound good--

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 12:19 PM

As a recent resident of NJ, and a long time democratic activist, I would say that New Jersey is a good example of what happens when yin and yang are out of balance to a large degree. We see the same problem in Michigan, but it is the Republicans who dominate. So many of the Dems I encountered in New Jersey were Dems in name only. They had to be in order to win. We see the same in outstate Michigan with liberal Republicans. The beauty of a two party system can only be appreciated when there are clear differences in the two parties. Unfortunately, I see my own Party moving too close to the middle and not differentiating itself from the Republicans. Fortunately we have folks like Kucinich, and Edwards to a degree, as well as a few others, who are trying to light that debate.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 12:32 PM

"For every complicated, serious question, there is one answer which is obvious, cheap, simple, and wrong."

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 04:31 PM

Cheap, good, fast -- choose two of three.

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 08:06 PM

The only really crooked politicians are the ones, of either party, that are in office.

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 09:44 PM

Does that mean that once they're in jail, they're no longer politicians?

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 10:06 PM

Incidentally, Riginslinger, what makes you think a third party would be any more honest than the other two?

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 10:16 PM

No, Riginslinger. They're still politicians. It's just that there's much less opportunity in jail for corrupt political activities.

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 11:47 PM

I don't buy the "big deal! All politicians are corrupt!" argument. All politicians are NOT corrupt, but I get joy from seeing corrupt politicians of both parties get their comeuppance. These guys are mere pikers when held up against the Bush record of malfeasance though, particularly in Iraq, where billions in taxpayer money have been swindled.

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 12:54 AM

Kucinich

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 11:12 AM

Lonesome - I agree. I don't think all politicians are corrupt. I seemed until a few days ago that most of the corrupt politicians were Republicans, so it could be that agencies under Republican control went out of their way to find crooked Democrats. Nonetheless, they found them.

                   I also agree with CarolC. I like Dennis Kucinich as well. The problem that he has is he'd tied to a party, and he doesn't reflect the party's agenda--at least the way it seems to be now.

                   Somebody, maybe on another thread recommended a Kucinch/Ron Paul ticket. That would obviously be a third party effort, but at least I think you'd have two honest people trying to do the best thing for the American people.

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: Greg B
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 11:49 AM

I, too, recently moved from NJ. But I lived in Morris County, which
is a Republican stronghold.

I moved there from California.

One of the problems in NJ is 'machine politics' which extends
down to the local level. California limited party politics to
state-level and above, and did so constitutionally in response
to local corruption within the party machines, which then
inevitably resulted in corrupt local politicians being moved
'up the ladder' to the state and even federal levels.

In order even to get elected as a township supervisor in NJ,
you have to be a 'good soldier' within the party which dominates
the town, pretty much. Sometimes, such endorsements and financial
help comes as a result of doing favor$ for people at the County
Committee level.

Similarly, 'team players' at the township level can look towards
getting tapped for county and then state office.

This is bad in two ways. First, it perpetuates corruption and causes
it to flourish as soon as its seeds are sown. Second, it prevents
good candidates who happen to live in the 'wrong' area for their
party of choice from ever getting elected. A strong candidate who
happens to be a Democrat will have real trouble getting elected
to Township Council or a School Board in a Republican area. Even
if he or she has no, zero, nada, ambitions towards larger office;
if they just want to do a good job for their neighbors.

The other odd thing that's noticeable in NJ, and in Eastern
PA as well is that the Republican Party is certainly not the
party of fiscal conservatism as it likes to portray itself at
the wider level. Rather, Republicans love to build big showpiece
municipal complexes and write blank checks for school spending.
They are the chosen party of affluent suburbanites who move out
to the suburbs, build huge houses, and want nothing but the best
for the schools for their little darlings. They also disdain little
town halls in old schoolhouses in favor of great big municipal
complexes, replete with libraries and 'homeland security'
headquarters.

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 02:19 AM

Believe me, GregB, the Republican Party has relinquished any and all claims to fiscal responsibility in the last seven years. They make Bill Clinton look like Uncle Scrooge. They also make Boss Tweed look like Mother Theresa. And I'll be back with other accurate but unexpected analogies as the mood strikes me.

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 10:24 AM

"The other odd thing that's noticeable in NJ, and in Eastern
PA as well is that the Republican Party is certainly not the
party of fiscal conservatism as it likes to portray itself at
the wider level..."


             The Republican Party ceased to be the party of fiscal conservatism the moment Ronald Reagan submitted his first budget to Congress.

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: Peace
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 01:21 PM

Don't speak ill of the dead.






































Congress, I mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 01:26 PM

What!?!?!?...

Crooked policians in New Jersey???

Say it ain't so.... Please, please say it ain't so...

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: Peace
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 01:32 PM

Hard to believe, eh, Bobert?

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 06:15 PM

I live a goodly distance from New Jersey- and so a number of other 'Catters. My point is that I don't know who you are talking about.

Now mind you, I am aware that I can google the question and get the answers -in fact, I probably have already read it and don't remember that the matter was in New Jersey - but in the interests of clarity and same-page-discussion, what are you talkin' about?

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: Peace
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 06:19 PM

Christopher J. Christie.

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: Peace
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 06:20 PM

He announced that a dozen people had been busted--amongst them were two Dems.

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: Greg B
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 06:41 PM

The Democratic party has traditionally been the party of corruption,
as its more plebeian roots have appealed to various groups who have
been involved in corruption and organized crime. The Republicans,
on the other hand, have been 'corrupt' in non-traditional ways which
are more described as 'self serving.' The city bosses in San
Francisco at the turn of the 20th century were Dems, as were, if
I recall, those in New York.

Recall the Mafia stuff that swirled around Kennedy, as a result
partly of Sinatra's friendship.

Republicans, on the other hand, have tended to represent the
'haves,' and thus they served a wealthy, albeit legal, establishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 09:03 PM

Wasn't it Bobby Kennedy as Attorney General that went after the mob???

Another misconception blown to pieces...

Oh well...

When it come to corruption, party lines are purdy murky... They are all on the take...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: EBarnacle
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 09:18 PM

The Mafia stuff around the Kennedies came from Daddy's relationship with organized crime, having been a rather successful bootlegger. There is apparently a theory that John used some of the connections with the collusion of his father to get to the presidential nomination.

While I am no fan of Republican AG's, this guy seems honest. He has gone after Republicans as well as Democrats.

He seems to be one of the ones Gonzalez did not consider throwing out.

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 11:40 PM

One the other hand, the Mafia seems pretty mild compared to Haliburton, Blackwater, and Dick Cheney.

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: RangerSteve
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 06:38 PM

Ebbie - various people suspuectd of taking bribes were approached by undercover workers and, while not offered bribes, were given the opportunity to mention that they were open to taking bribes. All of them were government employees, and well paid ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Reeling in crooked Dems. in New Jersey
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 10:58 PM

Guest - On the otherhand, there is a pretty big range of values in the Democratic Party. I guess Joe Lieberman isn't one anymore, but there are others with vastly competing interests.

                I would side with those democrats who still value organized labor, but there are many who don't, and a few who would happily throw labor overboard to promote their own personal agendas.

                If Kucinich gets the nomination, I will vote for him. I'd even campaign for him, if the opportunity presented itself.