Tech: Monitor Weirdness

Subject: Tech: Monitor Weirdness
From: Janie
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 08:51 PM

Last night while watching a DVD formatted for wide screen, I noticed a series of 'vertical line' blocks up at the top of the monitor in the black area above the film frame. They are still there, ghostly-like, on the top two inches of screen. and the cursor arrow is backed by a stack of three of the same series of bars in a different color. If I were to draw a line around the perimeter of the three blocks of lines behind the curser, it would form a square with the cursor arrow dead center.

Monitor issue? Hardware issue?

Janie

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor Weirdness
From: Janie
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 09:08 PM

...or mebbe it's the mushrooms....

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor Weirdness
From: Effsee
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 09:52 PM

It's the Holler telling you it feels neglected!

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor Weirdness
From: Amos
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 11:16 PM

Restart. You have a stuck loop of some sort in your VRAM.


A

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor Weirdness
From: Janie
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 11:44 PM

Tried that. No joy.

What's a VRAM? (not that I will understand. I just like to sound informed in my ignorance:^)

Don't know that it matters, but the DVD repeatedly stuck in the same spot - even after cleaning the disc with Windex and the drive/laser lens with the cleaner disc. I'm assuming the problems with the DVD sticking and the simultaneously onset of monitor screen weirdness are coinsidental.

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor Weirdness
From: Amos
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 11:55 PM

Sorry, I thought you meant after you had quit the DVD. VRAM is the block of RAM that stores the video data before it activates the monitor--it's not just a real-time flow to the monitor.

If you're still playing the DVD and getting this same loop, get it outta there, and then try (a) turn monitor on and then off. If no joy then (b) shut machine down fully, rest it for three minutes and then boot it up without the DVD in place. Should clear the air...


A.

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor Weirdness
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 12:02 AM

Sounds like the DVD may have a glitch, too. That happens often enough.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor Weirdness
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 12:14 AM

In TV signals, there are periods of the signal where info is carried other than the video info - these are not supposed to be visible on screen.

Perhaps JiK can take this further - I can't remember the details at moment - must be something to do with my past micro-strokes...

or some of the other answers may be more on the ball.

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor Weirdness
From: Janie
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 01:37 AM

I think I'm not communicating well. I noticed the problem while watching the DVD. The Problem persists sans DVD. The top 2 inches of my screen (toolbar and extending down into the post immediately above this dialog box) are shadowed by these semetrical "blocks" of vertical lines. On Mudcat, the 'bars' do not show up behind the cursor arrow, but do show up on the IE toolbar and extend down into the screen area of the adjacent post. The bars behind the cursor DO show up on the desktop, on CNN, and on weather.gov, for example. Pretend the following are vertical (instead of slanted) lines, and that they are much closer together - like a bar code.

//////////   ///////////    ///////////    ///////////   /////////

//////////   ///////////    ///////////    ///////////   /////////

Amos, Have restarted the computer numerous times. However, monitor on-and-off switch is kaput, and monitor itself can not be turned off. Should I try unplugging the monitor and then plugging it back in?

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor Weirdness
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 03:23 AM

At a guess, the lines on the monitor were already a problem before watching the DVD, but you had not noticed them. The difference in contrast due to the black strip above the wide screen picture made them more obvious. Now, because you know that they are there, your brain highlights them every time you look at the screen (a bit like when you find a pimple on your face, you can't ignore it in the mirror).
Then again, it might be a new problem.
Most likely causes are either the input from the computer or the monitor itself.
If you can find a different input source, you can eliminate or confirm the computer as the cause.
I expect the other piece of information that the technical experts need to know is what type of monitor you have. There will be different potential problems for an old style cathode ray tube compared with a modern LCD flat screen.
Quack!
Geoff the Duck.

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor Weirdness
From: Grab
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 07:59 AM

Sounds like a monitor problem. My current monitor (which is an old 17" CRT) is started to get a kind of "shadow" on the edges of things, and I've seen it before on old CRTs.

It's worth trying a monitor degauss in case something magnetic has done nasty things to it. (Oh, and check that there isn't a fridge magnet stuck to the monitor while you're at it! :-) But more likely is just that your monitor is on its way to the Great Office in the Sky...

Graham.

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor Weirdness
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 03:08 PM

Janie -

Although I've searched some for info on newer kinds of monitors, I haven't found much useful info on life and/or modes of failure. The symptoms vaguely described do sound like a monitor defect.

We will infer, from your third or fourth post that you are talking about viewing a DVD movie on your computer and aren't talking about a DVD player and separate monitor(?).

You still haven't told us whether you are using a flat screen or a CRT monitor, or given us a monitor model/maker identification (which should be imprinted on the front of the monitor). The failure mode described makes best sense for a flat screen monitor(?), although there are similar effects sometimes seen in CRT types.

A fairly remote possibility is that the program you use to play DVDs, or the DVD itself, may have ordered a change in graphics drivers, and failed to restore your usual driver when the movie was over. You haven't told us what OS you use, but for most recent Windows versions you can go to the Hardware Manager/Device Manager and delete the driver(s) for the graphics display/monitor and reboot. Windows will find and reinstall an "appropriate" driver when the computer restarts. If your monitor came with an installation disk, you can also follow the instructions on the disk to reinstall/change the driver.

In addition to the monitor, your computer must also have some kind of "graphics card" in order for the monitor to operate. A graphics card failure could possibly be a source of the symptoms described. (I've replaced three in my current machines, since the newer ones that one can still get all run at very high power levels and tend to cook themselves to failure.) You may have an "integral graphics" setup, with the graphics components on your motherboard, in which case any setup software would be on your original system disks.

Most "add-on" graphics cards should come with at least some kind of limited diagnostic and setup program. You may have a diagnostic/setup program on your computer that will allow you to display "test screens" that would show whether your "screen defects" are part of the screen or are coming from elsewhere.

Your comment that the off switch doesn't work implies that this is a fairly old monitor, and that it's been on most of the time (unless you've turned on "green" controls?). I haven't found much on wearout rates for flat panel monitors, but would expect anything more than three or four years old to be "suspect" for old-age behaviour. If yours is a couple of years old, and has been more or less constantly on, add another point in favor of a new monitor.

Last resort (or first if you really want accurate answers) is to find the website of the monitor builder and see if they have information and/or updated drivers that will help you figure out what to do next.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor Weirdness
From: Janie
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 08:04 PM

It is a Dell flat screen monitor. Unfortunately, it is not that old. It just occurs to me that it may still be under warranty.    I suffer from CRS syndrome, and off-hand don't remember if I bought this computer 1 or 2 summers ago. Guess I had better go digging for papers.

I was playing a DVD on the computer.

The problem is spreading, with the bars starting to appear further and further down the screen, and showing on the whole screen at start-up when it is all black except for the Dell logo. So it seems pretty clear that the monitor is going kaput.

Thanks for your help.

Janie

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor Weirdness
From: Janie
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 08:07 PM

John, I didn't realize not being able to turn off the monitor when the computer was off was a problem. Next time, I won't let a problem like that persist. I know it was still under warranty when the switch stopped working, and just didn't think it mattered enough to return the monitor.

Thanks again!

Janie

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor Weirdness
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 05:19 AM

Janie -

I seldom turn my monitor of on purpose, but then I seldom turn my computor off on purpose. I do, however plug them each separately into a surge suppressor that has a switch so that I can hit the surge cable switch and shut everything down.

The main reason for this in my case is that we get quite a few thunderstorms here, and it's sometimes necessary to shut everything down in a hurry when the back yard starts to glow and shoot off sparks.

If you can find the serial number for your computer, you can quite likely find a place at the Dell website (look in "Support") where you can enter the serial number and they will tell you when you bought the machine and if it's still under warrenty. They should also be able to give you a list of all the components that came with it.

Of course, Dell's response does depend on you're having registered it when you got it (?).

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor Weirdness
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 08:30 AM

Most recent monitors can be switched off by the PC (thru te hOS) - this SHOULD 'power down to standby' the monitor. I thought this should have helped NOT cause that sort of probelem..

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor Weirdness
From: Amos
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 09:51 AM

The facrt that the problem is spreading seems to indicate monitor decline, as you say. You could try unplugging the monitor and then replugging it, as a long shot.

The DVD playing may have been a catlyst but not a cause (i.e., it was just making the monitor "work hard" but didn't actually cause the problem directly).


A

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor Weirdness
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 12:28 PM

Turning off then on with a CRT monitor is sometimes at least a partial "cure" to some problems, since the decay of the magnetic field at turnoff and the buildup of the field at turnon acts to demagnetize the tube. Some CRT monitors (and nearly all "tube" TV monitors) include a "demag cycle" deliberately built in to the power systems. It's unlikely to have any effect on a flat panel monitor, since flat panels aren't magnetic devices.

For a flat panel, a full turnoff/on cycle might help to clear some "stuck bits" in the memory in the monitor itself, although the kind of memory used would have to be known to predict whether it could help.

My reference to the broken switch was based only on "if something's broke, it's probably been in use for a while."

The concern about age is mainly related to the tendency, in devices with many switches (logic elements) for some of them to "wear out" with continued age - and the presumption that only the "turned on" time counts in the aging.

So far as I've found in documentation, flat panel monitors haven't been around long enough to generate much comment on whether leaving them on constantly is better or worse than frequent on/off cycling. Even for CRT monitors, the question is "controversial," with advocates for both sides of the argument.

The most common kinds of flat panel monitors depend on changing the polarization of light passed through "liquid crystal" bits for each pixel. The liquid crystal materials are generally an organic material that can be "uncrystallized" by temperature extremes, although I haven't found any documentation on the transition temperatures applicable to common flat panel designs, and would expect the critical temperature to be somewhat higher than the panels are likely to see in any normal use/storage. Each pixel has to be turned on/off by a separate "switch element," which appears, usually, to be a diode operated as a zener switch. Failure of one switch - or several in a localized area - could overload adjacent ones(?) so progressive failure may be a "built-in" feature of these devices, if the failure is due to switch element failure.

The "switching layer" in most flat panel monitors is, by nature, flexible (they're called liquid crystals for good reason). This makes most flat panels very susceptible to pressure on the front panel, which - if excessive - actually can damage the internal bits. Most larger (desktop) flat panel monitors now have much "harder" face layers than in the past, although laptop monitors continue, apparently, to tend to have rather flexible face layers. Part of the distortion seen if you press a finger against the face is due to flexure, and there likely is an additional distortion component due to the "capacitance" of your finger. Excessive twisting, poking, warping, or other "mechanical stressing" of a flat panel can be destructive. Careless "cleaning" can leave scratches, and use of aggressive/inappropriate "cleaners" can be very destructive to the face layer.

The only reasonably well documented mode of failure I've seen relates to the "backlight" that actually provides the light that's switched by the LX layer in the common kinds of monitors. In most early flat panel monitors, a fluorescent lamp was used. I haven't seen enough details to know whether other methods have come into use, but for some (not many?) of these earlier ones it was possible to replace the fluorescent lamp as a separate component. The deterioration seen due to lamp senescence would be a general overall dimming of the display, and would not be of the kind seen in the present case. In an extreme case, a fluorescent lamp might begin to "strobe" on and off, but monitors - so far as reported - almost never reach that stage.

Even very good flat panel monitors commonly come with a disclaimer that:

"Isolated pixels may fail to light. This monitor was tested prior to shipment to confirm that the number of pixels displayed meets our quality standards. The failure of a few pixels is normal so suck up and live with it." [paraphrased slightly]

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor Weirdness
From: Janie
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 04:00 PM

UPdate. It is a driver problem. ati2dvag. In safe mode now. Has caused big crash. Off to 'puter guy on Monday.

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor Weirdness
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 11:12 PM

JiK

"Excessive twisting, poking, warping, or other "mechanical stressing" of a flat panel can be destructive."

I had a microwave oven that sustained a sharp edged blow on the display panel.

It was cheaper to buy a whole new oven than even buy the 'spare part' replacement panel.

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor Weirdness
From: Janie
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 11:42 PM

From reading message boards after I googled the driver, looking for some solution, this is a problem that has caused many computers to crash. Much speculation on the cause, no hard and fast solution. All the solutions are well beyond my very limited skill and understanding, and none are guaranteed to work. Apparently ATI and Microsoft have both been silent on the problem.

I'm pissed.

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor Weirdness
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 01:33 AM

By putting ATI in Google, I find that they seem to be an AMD subsidiary or "associate." Clicking on Support at the AMD site, and asking to "troubleshoot a display problem," using as much as you've told us about your computer and the problem gets:

AMD/ATI Support

The suggestion is that you check for the current driver for your setup. Downloading and installing a new driver should be fairly trivial, and something you should be able to do easily if you read and follow the instructions.

There is also some comment relative to:

"Missing textures, scrambled video display, flashing areas, or a solid colored screen are common symptoms of graphics corruption. This is usually the result of the game using a graphics feature that is not supported by the video card (graphics adapter), an issue with the game, or a display driver issue.

"Please Note:

"Running any game on systems that do not meet the minimum requirements may result in instability, graphics corruption, and/or severe performance problems. Please check with the game developer/publisher to ensure that your system meets the minimum requirements of the game. "

Given the (lack of) quality in much "entertainment media" distribution, you probably can substitute "movie" for "game" in the above, although if you do have a couple of games on your computer you should check with the "Review the Games Knowledgebase section to see if this is a known issue with this particular game."

If the problem is being caused by a game (or movie) that's using "features not supported" by your computer hardware, there's nothing ATI can do about it except tell you to quit using the game/movie and/or upgrade your hardware. That would be in the "Games Knowledgebase" section. They appear to have responded to this problem(?).

There are separate instructions for Vista and Windows, so you'll have to scroll down quite a distance to get to the Windows section. You may run into complexities that you will prefer your "computer shop" to handle if you get much past downloading a driver update, but you should be able to handle things at least through that point.

I did scan several of the whinge sites that complain about this being an "unsolvable problem" but in the ones I looked at there was NO MENTION of anyone checking with ATI to see if there was an updated driver - - but maybe I just missed it(?). The page I linked tells you how to tell what driver you are using, and you can easily look to see if there's a better one to use.

There is the possibility that you also have a "hardware failure," most likely in your "grapics card." The troubleshooting procedures can give some help with identifying whether this may be likely.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor Weirdness
From: Janie
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 10:50 AM

Thanks John. I had already been on that site, and am too dense to be able to figure out what I am supposed to do, which preliminary downloads I need, etc. If I could print them out and look at them I might do better, but I can't seem to print in safe mode, and I can't keep track of the instructions in that tiny little box that doesn't display a whole line without sliding back and forth. I can't print out the instructions from safe mode (at least not that I can figure out that I can), and it seems there are so many 'layers' of instructions, that I really don't think I want to try it. I can't figure out even which of the preliminary downloads I need.

I suppose the problem could be one of the games my son has on the computer - maybe Star Wars - but I was pretty sure we had the appropriate graphic card to handle it, and it has been on the computer for quite some time. I'll recheck to be sure.

Thanks for the feedback on the message boards. I went to them after I couldn't figure out what to do, or where to go next from the ATI support site.

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor Weirdness
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 11:45 PM

"I can't keep track of the instructions in that tiny little box that doesn't display a whole line without sliding back and forth"

Sme minds seem to function better in 'gestalt mode' i.e. looking at an overall picture - we seem to read pages of text at a time, etc, and being forced into this mind numbing 'teaspoon at a time' nonsense fatigues us rapidly. :-)