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Subject: The Unquiet Grave From: ositojuanito Date: 20 Sep 07 - 05:56 AM HI, I have been thinking of the lyric to the Unquiet Grave and I was wondering if any of you have heard of a folk song lyric so extreme. John |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Ruth Archer Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:03 AM Extreme in what way? |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Big Al Whittle Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:05 AM not sure what you mean......extreme? |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:22 AM Snogging a mouldering corpse? |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Ruth Archer Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:27 AM yeah, like that's unusual in folk song. Anyway, what's more extreme? Kissing a mouldering corpse or mincing up a girl, parching her in the fire, and feeding her to her father in a pie? |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:56 AM Yeah, like that's unusual in Ambridge. |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Ruth Archer Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:58 AM Look, there's not a lot to do in the country on a Saturday night. |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Susan of DT Date: 20 Sep 07 - 07:25 AM There are several ballads with speaking/returning corpses - SuffolkMiracle/Holland Hankerchief #272 Sweet William's Ghost #77 Wife of Usher's Well #79 Proud Lady Margaret #47 And there are certainly many bloody and/or cruel ballads in the Child collection. |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Big Al Whittle Date: 20 Sep 07 - 08:56 AM I suppose the people in folksongs do tend to be a colourful lot. People who just go down to the shops and buy a loaf, come back and watch Countdown - well they don't tend to get folksongs written about them. Unfortunately in my view - I believe there is room for innovation. |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Andy Jackson Date: 20 Sep 07 - 09:00 AM How pleasant is the loaf tonight, I see some bits of grain. Switch the telly on and settle down, It's countdown time again. |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: M.Ted Date: 20 Sep 07 - 09:01 AM I think that this new generation of songwriters are actually getting into that sort of thing, WLD, and some don't even get so far as the shops, they just moan about the emptiness of their lives-- |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Ruth Archer Date: 20 Sep 07 - 09:19 AM Wasn't Eleanor Rigby a bit like that? |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: The Sandman Date: 20 Sep 07 - 10:16 AM Eleanor Rigby was a pop song,written by Lennon and Mccartney,forgive me for stating the obvious. Watch out, or well get into whats the difference between a pop song or a folk song[as defined by the meeting in SaoPaulo Brazil in 1954]. This sacred definition written over fifty years ago,which was passed down on high by all the folkarch angels. , |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Ruth Archer Date: 20 Sep 07 - 10:24 AM Well, if we're talking about "new" folk songs, it's going to be singer-songwriter stuff. I don't see why Eleanor Rigby doesn't qualify. |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) Date: 20 Sep 07 - 11:48 AM Nick Cave's 'Murder Ballads' album was an excellent updating of the tradition of gruesomeness - although musically it's not particularly foaky (except the sublime 'Wild Rose' which nods in a foakerly direction), lyrically it's up there with the best of them. I also reckon labels like Wild Goose should start putting 'parental advisory- explicit lyrics' stickers on their CDs. After all, there's a higher body count on some of them than on many a gangsta rap album... Cheers Nigel |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Big Al Whittle Date: 20 Sep 07 - 11:48 AM Oh! the cup of tea is my delight And when my spirit's restive I contemplate the numbers game And nibble a digestive |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Andy Jackson Date: 20 Sep 07 - 11:52 AM Eleanor Rigby, Not quite a folk song but what's in a name. 'Twill be sung yet for some years, If only some people unblinker their ears. |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Betsy Date: 20 Sep 07 - 11:57 AM In my opinion the finest rendition of this form of song is Vin Garbutt singing the Lovers Ghost . To sing this song of most disturbing content, preceeded by his hilarious introduction,will take you through the whole gambit of what is great about folk nmusic performance . |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Ruth Archer Date: 20 Sep 07 - 12:02 PM I agree that Nick Cave and Kylie's Wild Rose is right up there for contemporary takes on the genre. Gorgeous and haunting. |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: GUEST,Mike Billington Date: 20 Sep 07 - 12:26 PM I first heard the Unquiet Grave in the aerly 1970s when I bought the first Gryphon album and the instrumental break in the middle is one of the most haunting pieces I have ever heard and admirably suited the lyrics. The album has been re-released on CD individually and also as a double album with the group's second album Midnight Mushrumps. Has anyone heard this version? Mike. |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: The Sandman Date: 20 Sep 07 - 12:35 PM How about, Shes leaving home? As a matter of fact I like Eleanor Rigby,and although it is a popsong it could also be/or may become a Folk song[But not according to the 1954 SaoPaulo definition, to which we must all subscribe ],in the end I dont care, I just like the song. |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Mrrzy Date: 20 Sep 07 - 12:47 PM See this thread I started a while back about the whole kissing walking corpses thing. There are lots and lots of them in which the living lover WANTS to kiss the dead one, but the dead one always - except once- refuses on the grounds that it would kill the living one. In the exception the living lover kisses without asking as she is unaware that the dead one IS dead, so I will re-ask my question here - wouldn't you expect her to die from having kissed the dead? Or were all the dead lover wrong? Or - lying? Hmmm...? |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: GUEST,countrylife Date: 20 Sep 07 - 01:14 PM ositojuanito and others may have noted that Steeleye Span always used to put one REALLY good blood guts and gore song on each of their albums... Sir James The Rose from Rocket Cottage comes immediately to mind |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: GUEST,countrylife Date: 20 Sep 07 - 01:16 PM "Midnight Mushrumps" I just bought a copy of this record, on vinyl, at a used record shop, in really good condition as well. |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Mr Red Date: 20 Sep 07 - 01:23 PM well at least there isn't a song on necrophilia and bestiality or am I ................... |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: GUEST,Mike Billington Date: 20 Sep 07 - 01:34 PM That's very strange; I didn't think that there were any good quality pressings of "Midnight Mushrumps". There are many quiet passages on the album and I know that way back in the early 70s the band themselvs were very disappointd in the initial pressings which were made in Italy. The surface noise was unacceptable. I hope you enjoy the rcord; it is one of my all time favourite albums along with Fantasia Lindum by Amazing Blondel, Renaissance of the Celtic Harp by Alan Stivell and The Complete Dancing Master by Hutchings and Kirkpatrick. MB |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: peregrina Date: 20 Sep 07 - 01:35 PM There's a folkloric belief that the dead cannot sleep or rest if the living are grieving too long: another ingredient in some of the dark ballads, even a kind of mythic truth about grief? Anyone know why the revenants/dead who return cannot eat the food the living offer them (e.g. Wife of Usher's Well)? Maybe there are several different types of extremes in the traditional songs. For example, there are extremes that are just plain gory and violent and might reflect real-life crimes. And then there are the extremes that reflect widespread and very ancient notions, or else primal emotional truths? |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: SouthernCelt Date: 20 Sep 07 - 01:40 PM Here are the lyrics to what I would consider a modern folk song written, I assume, by Robert Earl Keen who is the only person I've ever heard sing it. I'd call this (in my own way of categorizing folk songs)an American/Southern Gothic song. This one gets into the whole grave business; however, the "resolving" verses could be taken different ways. Considering Keen's music overall though, this whole song could be one big metaphor for something else entirely. Here in Arkansas The north wind blows a prairie fire across the open plain A light shines on the granite stone where someone carved my name Chorus: Sister find the preacherman; Daddy call the law Things have gotten out of hand here in Arkansas An icy ring around the moon a fire across the sky They buried me this afternoon and left me here to die Chorus Sheriff Clark, Reverend Friend, Mrs. Worthington Told my family that I'd be the end to all they've done Chorus Mother raised the children and daddy worked the farm I was born the seventh son of the seventh born Chorus All the elders did decree my soul to be unclean They strapped me to a gurney and gave me morphine Chorus Sister walks into the night and prays my soul to save And underneath the cold moonlight she finds my open grave Chorus The north wind blows a prairie fire Here in Arkansas SC |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Big Al Whittle Date: 20 Sep 07 - 01:59 PM My favourite version was Ian Campbell singing to the late John Dunkerly's banjo. I remember being a bit disappointed with Cyril Tawney's version. sometimes feels like that Stefan Grossman(okay i know Rev Gary Davis!)thing - all the friends I ever had are gone.... |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Ebbie Date: 20 Sep 07 - 02:59 PM "...folkloric belief that the dead cannot sleep or rest if the living are grieving too long..." peregrina That reminds me of the long-held belief of a friend of mine. A naturalized American she is from Central Europe and she says that she was taught that when a loved one dies, the one left behind must take good care of her or himself for a period of time because the one who died may come back for her/his loved one. And that explains, she says, why so many elderly husbands die within such a short time of each other. |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Don Firth Date: 20 Sep 07 - 04:07 PM There are a couple of superstitions or beliefs represented in "The Unquiet Grave" (Child #78). One (the main one) is that mourning over-much disturbs the dead. Mourning for as long as a year? Okay. I'll sit and mourn all on her graveLonger that a year. At which point, the ghost—or the "revenant" ("returner")—rouses and speaks. "Why sittest thou all on my graveIt is also said that the tears of the mourner wet the winding sheet of the departed. The second is the belief that if one kisses a corpse (even though the revenant is animated enough to speak, or sometimes even walk, it is still a corpse), one will die shortly thereafter. I don't see the ballad as grisly at all. It's a beautiful ballad expressing the feeling of pain and loss of the surviving lover, and the concern of the departed that he should go on and live his life without her, not wanting him to join her in death. Therefore, she refuses his kiss. The ballad seems to contain a general moral: Life is for the living. Don't waste the rest of your life mourning for someone who is gone. Get on with it. There is one goof in the lyrics that I hear many people making, and I believe that goof stems from a misprint in Cecil Sharp's One Hundred English Folk Songs. In fact, Joan Baez sings the goof, and repeats it in her song book, which may explain why I hear so many people singing it that way. The goof is found in the verse: Down in yonder grove, sweetheart,The typo is in the second line. The word "grove / grave." In Sharp's (and Joan's) book, the word "grave" is printed. Obviously, "grove" is the correct word. What kind of sense does the idea of two young lovers walking "in yonder grave" make? Whereas, in balladry as in life, lovers walk in groves all the time. Rarely in graves. Short walk. Not all that romantic. Besides, most other books I've seen containing the same version of the ballad use the word "grove." The nicest and most effecting rendition of this ballad I have ever heard was by Andrew Rowan Summers on his Folkways album, "The Unquiet Grave." Several other fine ballads on that record, beautifully performed, with dulcimer accompaniment. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Don Firth Date: 20 Sep 07 - 04:19 PM Ah, SO! I just found the same typo in the Digital Tradition version. It credits the Joan Baez song book, which probably explains it. In version 2 in the DT (similar, but with some differences), recorded by the Ian Campbell Folk Group, that verse reads Down in yonder garden gay"Garden gay" or "grove." Makes much more sense than holding hands and strolling in a "grave." Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: GUEST,countrylife Date: 20 Sep 07 - 04:31 PM "That's very strange; I didn't think that there were any good quality pressings" the sound quality is definitely a bit wonky...I meant that the quality, ie lack of scratches etc....was good...a fine record ..right up there with The Compleat Dancing Master...and dare I say it.....Liege and Lief |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: GUEST,doc.tom Date: 21 Sep 07 - 05:49 AM "labels like Wild Goose should start putting 'parental advisory- explicit lyrics' stickers on their CDs." Well Nigel, it's like this - we did suggest to Doug that our CDs should have "THIS CD CONTAINS EXPLICIT LANGUAGE AND GRUESOME STORIES" as a sticker, but he seemed to think it wouldn't help sell the things! And there's more a few bits of folklore! - Excessive grief, revenant as opposed to ghost, talking with the dead, kissing the dead (thwarted by the leaf), riddles, St. Johns Wort, it positively reeks of lore - GREAT song. Tom |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: GUEST,edthefolkie Date: 21 Sep 07 - 06:24 AM As Mike Billington said, the Gryphon version of The Unquiet Grave is excellent. I think their percussionist (David Oberle??)sang it and I believe there's a bassoon bit by Brian Gulland mixed down low in the break. Saw them at a club gig in London before they became pomp-rockers. They were absolutely brilliant, not to mention hilarious. Anyway, never mind the Unquiet Grave - if you really want a nice depressing song, try Bazza Dransfield singing The Week Before Easter. |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) Date: 21 Sep 07 - 09:14 AM QUOTE: (Doug) seemed to think it wouldn't help sell the things. You see, I think Doug's wrong on this. In fact, if this proposal was adopted widely it would make buying traditional CDs so much easier - the stickerless ones could be avoided as far too lightweight... Of course, there should be one as standard on the cover of EDS magazine too! Meanwhile, when I saw the John Dipper Band a couple of weeks back, they did a lovely version of the Unquiet Grave, which singer Alison Jones announced as one she'd learned off her parents' Gryphon records... which was a nice touch. Cheers Nigel |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: GUEST,countrylife Date: 21 Sep 07 - 11:21 AM slightly off topic, this from the Gryphon website After a silence of thirty one years the band have finally decided to produce a new album. Whilst there is no timescale planned, it is envisaged that it will be released in the Summer of 2008. There is the possibility of one live performance in London which is currently being discussed and will be announced nearer the time, but no further dates are planned as yet, although this may change closer to the time of the album's release. Thanks to all our fans for their constant support and encouragement.... watch this space! Gryphon. |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Don Firth Date: 21 Sep 07 - 03:25 PM Addendum: In my post above, about the typo or the boo-boo in the lyrics of "The Unquiet Grave," I scrood-up. I wrote that "The typo is in the second line. The word 'grove / grave.'" No. The typo is in the first line of the verse. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Herga Kitty Date: 21 Sep 07 - 03:53 PM I think Child Owlet is fairly extreme... as Wikipedia summarises: Lady Erskine tries to seduce her husband's nephew, Child Owlet. He refuses. She stabs herself and tells her husband that he had tried to seduce her. He puts Child Owlet to death by having him torn apart by wild horses. Kitty |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: mg Date: 21 Sep 07 - 03:57 PM Oh you are all mistaken. Round and round by the garden gate Down where we used to walk The sweetest flower ever I saw Is withered to a stalk. |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Herga Kitty Date: 21 Sep 07 - 04:04 PM And Nigel, how would you classify WGS 342 CD - Lynne and Pat's September Days, with "Twa Corbies", "Foreign fields" and "Off for the Op"? Kitty |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: GUEST,countrylife Date: 21 Sep 07 - 04:26 PM "Lady Erskine tries to seduce her husband's nephew, Child Owlet. He refuses. She stabs herself and tells her husband that he had tried to seduce her. He puts Child Owlet to death by having him torn apart by wild horses." yes that is VERY extreme |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: peregrina Date: 21 Sep 07 - 04:44 PM The Lady Erskine plot is roughly parallel to the Greek myth of Phaedra and Hippolytus, even down to the use of horses. To me it seems that the extreme derived from the mythic archetype is a different kind of extreme from the murder ballad based on a real event. These extremes (however you might categorize them, distinguish them, whatever) are supremely memorable; they stick in the mind and stick in the tradition. Traditional Song= Where the Wild things are? re the 'goof' of the Unquiet Grave,--the grove or grave or garden: when does print variation start to count like oral variation?? |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Tootler Date: 21 Sep 07 - 06:20 PM It is interesting to look at the variants in Child - there are 10 of them. They can be found here |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Sep 07 - 07:43 PM Nothing in the 1954 definition of folk music that would prevent Eleanor Rigby becoming a folk song. Just needs to bed in a bit and get adjusted to the environment. Which in fact has probably already happened. But that belongs in another current thread really. ................. If we're on about lovers in the grave, the one that really raises teh hairs on the back of the neck is surely I am stretched on your grave. |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 21 Sep 07 - 08:32 PM Just looking at a few variants- From the version "Cold Blows the Wind," Burne 1886. O don't you remember the garden-grove Where we was used to walk? Pluck the finest flower of them all, 'Twill wither to a stalk. "How Cold the Winds do Blow" Broadwood 1902 It's down in yonder garden, love, Where we were used to walk, There's finest flowers that ever grew All withered to the stalk. "The Unquiet Grave," Greenleaf and Mansfield, 1933 Down yonder meadow where the grass grows green, Where you and I used to walk, The prettiest flowers that ever we had seen It is withered unto the stalk. D in Child, Buchan's MSS 1 Mind ye not the day, Willie, Sin you and I did walk? The first flower that we did pull Was withered on the stalk. H Baring Gould MSS, XXXIII O don't you mind the garden, love, Where you and I did walk? The fairest flower that blossomed there Is withered on the stalk. "The Unquiet Grave" Peacock You go down in some yonder green grove Where true loves used to walk, And there you'll find so fine a flower All withered unto the stalk. etc. Reminds me of a verse by Francis Thompson- The fairest things have fleetest end, Their scent survives their close; But the rose's scent is bitterness To him that loved the rose. (Daisy, 1893) |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: GUEST,Tattie Bogle Date: 02 Sep 10 - 08:21 AM There seem to be a plethora of different tunes for it too. The first one I was aware of was the one Joan Baez sings, but a quick trip to Youtube unearths (pardon the pun) at least 4 more! Anyone know the origin of the tune as sung by JB? |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 02 Sep 10 - 01:13 PM I looked in "The Joan Baez Songbook. All it says there is Child 78. |
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Subject: RE: The Unquiet Grave From: Brian Peters Date: 02 Sep 10 - 01:34 PM Here's the Joan Baez version The best fit I can find is with the one collected by Cecil Sharp from Mrs. Rea of Hambridge, Somerset, in 1916. As printed in Bronson the words don't match JB's (she includes the rare verse 'Go fetch me water from the desert / and blood from out of a stone') - but the Rea version is also (it says here) printed in JFSS II no. 6 "with different words", so perhaps that's where she found the extra verses. Or perhaps it's a collation. Lovely tune, anyway. |
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Subject: Lyr. Add: The Unquiet Grave (Baez) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 02 Sep 10 - 01:58 PM Baez has a couple of verses from variants in Child, but unless she composed new verses, she obtained the song from another version than those in Child. Her book has music with chords. C(C-F) The Unquiet Grave The Joan Baez Songbook, 1964, Amsco Pub. pp. 60-61 Child No. 78 1 Cold blows (C)the (F)wind (C)to (G7)my true love, (Am)And (**Em)gently (**Dm)drops the (G)rain.- I've (*Am)never (F)had but (C)one true (G)love, (C)And in (F)greenwood (G7)he lies (C)slain. 2 I'll do as much for my true love, As any girl may, I'll sit and mourn all on his grave For twelve months and a day. 3 And when twelve months and a day was passed, The ghost did rise and speak, "Why sitteth thou all on my grave And will not let me sleep?" 4 "Go fetch me water from the desert, And blood from out the stone, Go fetch me milk from a fair maid's breast That young man never has known." 5 "My breast is as cold as clay, My breath is earthly strong, And if you kiss my cold clay lips Your days they won't be long." 6 (1)How oft in yonder grove, sweetheart, Where we were won't to walk, The fairest flower that e'er I saw Has withered to a stalk." 7 "When will we meet again, sweetheart, When will we meet again?" "When the Autumn leaves that fall from the trees Are green and spring up again." (1) Corrections made to mis-prints in this line. |
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