BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 05:38 PM

Iran is a developing country, and feeling its oats. A little careful diplomacy and the right kind of aid might do much to increase secularization, which many Iranians want, and at the same time decrease emphasis on militarization.

Shias in Iran are in the majority. Thousands cross over into Iraq to worship at the shrines of their religion. The part of Iraq that is Shia would be more stable under Iranian control.
Syria is mostly Sunni, the Iraqi Sunni area belong with them.

The Kurds could form a legimitate nation, if the Turks (and Russians) would cooperate to mutual advantage and not threaten war.

Oh, well- too much to hope for.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 04:58 PM

He was re-installed, pdq, after a very progressive parliamentary government that was reforming the country got brought down by the CIA, at which point those reforms were ended. The CIA did it on behalf of the international oil industry...as an extension of US-British policy. They did it for money. (and power...but money IS power)

Read "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" for the full story of the whole sorry affair by a man who was on the inside at the time.

Another incipient Third World democracy with nationalistic ideals was abruptly crushed by the big hand of corporate commerce, and replaced with the rule of a compliant autocrat.

Your government doesn't really run your society at all, pdq, it serves as a handmaiden to those who do run your society: Mega-Corporations. You live under a gigantic corporate oligarchy...and matter of fact, so do I. It controls Canada too. Its only purpose is to maximize profit. It will use you if you are compliant, it will crush you like a bug if you're not. The best you can hope for is that you don't get in its way.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 03:56 PM

Re-installed is more the word, if we're being a bit pedantic. Put back in power in a putsch that destroyed a democratic government that was seen as inconvenient for the USA and the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 03:08 PM

TP-AJAX

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: pdq
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 03:04 PM

At least get one thing right, Birdfeathers: the Pahlavi monarchy was installed in 1925 with Shah Reza Pahlavi who ruled until 1941. His son, the man we usually call Shah, ruled from 1941 to 1979. He was not installed in 1953 by the CIA and evil British oil barrons as you have claimed time after time.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 02:55 PM

Rapaire said it perfectly: "NEVER prevent someone you consider an enemy or a potential enemy a chance to speak. You might learn something that can help you later, should fighting become necessary and unavoidable."

That was my point, my whole point, and nothing but my point.

pdq - Thanks, pal. Your enthusiastic endorsement is what I live for when it comes to political matters. ;-) I do not share your interpretation of the political history of Dr Mossadegh and the Shah...nor do most Iranians. Mossadegh was sacrificed upon the altar of corporate profit...just like Allende and a great many others.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 12:58 PM

But if they are the sort that might cheer a Nazi it might be as well to find that out, wouldn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 12:19 PM

"NEVER prevent someone you consider an enemy or a potential enemy a chance to speak. You might learn something that can help you later..."

Yes, indeed! About 40 years ago, my university had George Lincoln Rockwell as a speaker. I went, curious to hear the spewer or the worst kinds of hate in HIS own words. I was quite appalled....then I was extremely appalled as he got round after round of applause & cheers from a fairly large section of the audience.

What I learned was, be VERY careful of who you speak to and what you say to the people around you everyday until you know them, for if they are the sort that would cheer a Nazi, they might do other things.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 11:46 AM

Hey folks, why would you be afraid of letting "that Piece of Shit" in our country? The essence of a free society is the airing of all points of view and letting them stand or fail on their merits. An important aspect of that is trusting the citizenry enough to be able to discern the rightness or wrongness of someone's agenda. My guess is Ahmadinejad will speak, he will present his case slanted in a way that will make it appear legitimate, this will spawn debate and examination, and in the long run the majority of these students will get it right.

Only little people who are unsure of the rightness of their positions would be afraid of "every piece of crap on the world stage" speaking here.

And while he is here, Ahmadinejad should stop by the White House and kiss GWB on the lips. This is because Rapaire is right on, Bush put this man in power by attempting to meddle in the electoral process of Iran.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: pdq
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 11:35 AM

"Nice going GWB letting that Piece of Shit in our country..."

As long as the UN building is located in the United States, every piece of crap on the world stage will be welcomed into the US. George W. Bush has done nothing to prevent or encourage his speaking here.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 11:27 AM

By the way, the current regime in Iran wouldn't be in there if Bush had kept his mouth shut just before the election. Iran was leaning towards the moderates before that.

And if you doubt me, check it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 11:26 AM

NEVER prevent someone you consider an enemy or a potential enemy a chance to speak. You might learn something that can help you later, should fighting become necessary and unavoidable. If nothing else the hot air will help reduce the heating bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: jacqui.c
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 11:24 AM

It's a bit like inviting your kid's seemingly unsuitable partner round for a family meal. That can end up with opening eyes on both sides and I think that will be the case here.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 11:21 AM

I'm glad he's going to speak. He may be as nasty as has been reported, but the speech is going to be in his own words, not those filtered through an interpreter who possibly spun it, reported by somebody in the media who possibly spun it and reacted to by a government who undoubtedly spun it because they reall seem to be trying very hard to find a reason to go blow something up in Iran.

No, I wouldn't trust what he had to say, but I'd listen because I definitely don't trust the US government. I'm afraid he might not sound like the monster some people keep telling us he is. I think that's what they're really worried about - people hearing him without the proper spin being added.

He might be a truly evil person, I don't know. If he is, it won't be difficult for the students at Colombia to figure it out. A few of them might be smarter than those who want to stop them from hearing Ahmadinejad.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: pdq
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 11:10 AM

"Mohammed Reza Pahlavi was the shah of Iran from 1941 to 1979, except for a brief period in 1953 when Prime Minister Muhammed Mosaddeq overthrew him. Mosaddeq was in turn overthrown with assistance from the U.S., and the shah was returned to power as a U.S. ally. He greatly modernized Iran and established social reforms, many of which angered fundamentalist religious leaders. In 1979 the religious opposition, lead by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, drove the shah into exile. Khomeini sought the capture of the shah, and when it was learned that he had been admitted into the United States for medical treatment, Iran's response was the start of the hostage crisis at the U.S. embassy in Teheran. After dismissal from the hospital the Shah fled to Panama, then Egypt. He died on July 27, 1980, at the age of 60."

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: jacqui.c
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 11:01 AM

Well said Little Hawk.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: pdq
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 10:44 AM

Little Hawk:

Your last post is one of the worst piles of crap in the history of Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 10:42 AM

well...Im glad THAT'S clarified!

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: GUEST,TOM
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 10:32 AM

Thanks for the history lesson chicken hawk. I do know what we did to Iran in order to get oil companies over there to get rich, and cheap oil. Could we have talked down Germany in the the late 30's and early 40's, what about Japan. If you let some guy go around and say crazy shit like Jews lied about dying in ovens in WW2,. Lets leave the middle east alone and pull out everybody thats american. I'm sure with billions and billions dollars from oil for a least the next 50 years that they will not get nukes and not fight wars. To think we can all just bury our heads in the sand and things wont be f**ked up is weak and just a pipe dream..smoke another one bro....

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 07:46 AM

I suppose it'd be too much to hope for that this might be a way of putting the record straight, and undoing some of the lies and distortions about some of the stuff the man is supposed to have said in the past, and didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 03:13 AM

Never trust a man who would rather fight than talk first and then maybe fight later...when and IF it's truly necessary. Such men are killers at heart, and killers can't be trusted, no matter what side of the line they stand on.

Those who are afraid to have a dialogue with their temporary enemy...and a study of history will show you that all enemies are temporary...those who are afraid of dialogue with their "enemy" secretly fear that they will lose the chance to continue hating him and lose the chance to one day kill him...that being what they really, really long to do. They guard their hatred like a dragon guards his golden hoard. They detest anyone who speaks for peace or compromise, because it might take away their enjoyment of their hatred. It might take away their chance to kill.

Do you know what the USA did to Iran, starting in the 1950's...long before their 1979 revolution, Tom? Maybe you don't, but they do. Do you know what the USA got Iraq to do to Iran for 8 years in the 80's? Maybe you don't, but they do. The blood of far more than 3,000 Iranians is on USA hands. Figure the blood of at least several hundred thousand Iranians, maybe a million of them, and you're beginning to get the picture. Figure the oppression of an entire society for decades by means of US-provided money and arms under a US-backed dictator and you're beginning to get the picture.

That's why they had that Islamic revolution in 1979, and why they were so angry at the USA. There would have been no such Islamic revolution had the USA not sewn the field for it to occur. There would also be no Al-Queda had the USA not sought out and trained Osama Bin Laden's religious fanatics in the 80's, and formed them into the Mujahedin in order to kill Russians for the USA in Afghanistan. Reagan's people did that. They gave birth to what is now Al-Queda. They gave birth to what is now the Taliban. And they did it to kill Russians and bankrupt the Soviets. They cared not what would happen afterward, although there were sensible people in the Islamic world who warned them that they were creating "a Frankenstein monster" when they trained those Mujahedin.

The USA is entirely the author of its own troubles in regard to the present confrontations with radical Islam...but you need a memory more than 6 or 7 years long to figure that out...

And the more "reality" TV and empty crap like that which you watch, the shorter your memory gets, right?

Have pity on a society (our North American society) in which the young people commonly use the word "history" to describe things which don't matter to anyone anymore. The past matters tremendously. It made the situations we are now faced with, and if you don't understand it or even remember it, you're lost.

The U.N., Tom, is NOT in "your country". The U.N. is international territory, and you cannot stop ANYONE in the world from visiting the U.N. because it is NOT under American jurisdiction or control. You are a guest of the WORLD when you enter the U.N.

(They never should've put it inside the USA in the first place. They should have put it inside Belgium, Switzerland, Sweden or some other relatively small, neutral, and modest country that does not imagine itself to be the Boss and Commander of the entire world and the Sword in the Right Hand of God.)

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: GUEST,Tom
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 11:30 PM

Let that little terd from Iran go to ground zero, on his way there lets blow his convoy up with some of the IED's from Iran, that have killed american troops in Iraq. Maybe if you dont like that, lets storm his building at the UN in New York and take him hostage for over a year. You know, like his college friends did when they stormed our embassy in the 1970's. I'm just kidding I'm sure he can talk some sense to the stoned students and get them to also buy into his anti Jewish bullshit. Nice going GWB letting that Piece of Shit in our country....

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 10:20 PM

Let Iraq do it. It worked before!

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 10:19 PM

...by politicians who told the military "do it." The US military is currently stretched so thin that it couldn't support a war with a country as advanced as Iran and continue in Iraq (not to mention Afghanistan). If somebody wants to fight Iran, let France do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 10:17 PM

I don't think the US wants a war with Iran. We were forced into the mess in Iraq

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Alba
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 09:45 PM

Little Hawk..... applause
My Best Wishes to you
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 09:24 PM

Here's what I would do, Bill, if I were the president of the USA.

I would say, "Mr Ahmadinejad, that is a fine gesture on your part, and one that I and all Americans can appreciate. Therefore, I am going to go WITH you to the 911 site and we will both lay down wreaths together in memory of the innocent people who died on 911. I will ensure that proper security is provided. It is my hope that this will serve as a springboard that can lead to new and substantive negotiations to ease the differences between our nations and defuse the atmosphere of mutual distrust that has existed between us ever since 1979."

Both sides would get their photo-op. Security would be provided. A door would be opened at least a crack toward something positive for a change.

What a revolutionary notion!

I would do that, because I don't want a war with Iran.

But if one does want a war with Iran, then one doesn't consider doing any such thing...right? Enemies must forever remain enemies when one wants a war.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 09:07 PM

Yes, Bill, I see your point. Existing impressions of good and evil, no matter how knee-jerk they are, must not be tampered with.

But really...I do see your point. And of course Ahmadinejad would be using it for his own purposes...as a photo-op.

There's a lot of cynicism at play on both sides of that equation, I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 09:04 PM

It's not a matter of right or wrong...It would cause protests and disruptions like have seldom been seen... by those who THINK it's right or wrong.

"Sorry, Mr. Ahmadinejad, but we can't afford to cordon off the entire area and pay 1500 cops ovetime, so you can have a photo-op."

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 08:56 PM

Here's an extraordinary little snippet of news from today's Yahoo headlines and news stuff:

"Even before leaving Iran, though, Ahmadinejad has already caused a stir in New York. His request to lay a wreath at the World Trade Center site was denied, and protests are planned outside the UN building and at Columbia University."

That is bizarre. How can anyone be denied the gesture of laying a wreath at the 911 site???? Who will protest that?

They are denying it because they cannot bear to allow Mr Ahmandinejad to publicly do anything that would detract from his present image as the USA's official demonic bad guy and threat to the world.

In other words, it would be detrimental to present Bush administration propaganda efforts which are aimed at increasing tension between Iran and the USA, not decreasing it.

God forbid that Ahmadinejad or any other chosen "evil" enemy should ever be allowed to publicly do anything that might cause an improvement in relations...

No, he must be forever depicted as gleefully chuckling over the 3,000 American civilians who died on 911. That's what a bad guy would do, right? He certainly cannot be allowed to lay a wreath!

It wouldn't look right.

Subject: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 08:20 PM

Opinions? My feelings are that this presents a marvelous opportunity for Columbia to instruct students on proper behaviour. It's fairly simple: Picketing is fine, but you can't keep others from attending. Preventing the speaker from speaking is verboten. Expressions of approval or disapproval are limited to previous rule. Students who violate rules face suspension or expulsion.

And these should apply whether the speaker is Ahmadinejad or Cheney.