BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani

Subject: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: Cruiser
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 02:28 PM

Presidential Frontrunner Fabrications: Ms.Clinton & Giuliani

"Sir Edmund became famous only after climbing Everest in 1953. Mrs. Clinton, as it happens, was born in 1947."

"For more than a decade, one piece of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton's informal biography has been that she was named for Sir Edmund Hillary, the conqueror of Mount Everest. The story was even recounted in Bill Clinton's autobiography."

"But yesterday, Mrs. Clinton's campaign said she was not named for Sir Edmund after all."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/17/nyregion/17hillary.html?_r=1&oref=slogin


Rudolph W. Giuliani

9/11:

Giuliani spent 29 hours total at Ground Zero yet said he spent as much time as recovery workers in the weeks after the Sept. 11 attacks:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/08/17/us/politics/giulianilarge.jpg


Profited from 9/11:

"Rudy has used the horrible events of September 11 to create a persona that is an elaborate fabrication," says IAFF General President Harold Schaitberger. "He is nothing more than a shameless self-promoter."

Excellent YouTube video of firefighters against Giuliani:

http://www.rudy-urbanlegend.com/

From wiki:

"Additionally, there has been debate as to whether or not Giuliani profited from the tragedy. Before September 11th, Giuliani was estimated to be worth a little less than $2 million, but his net worth could now be as high as 30 times that amount.[citation needed] In the past year alone, he has collected $11.4 million from speaking fees.[81]"

Then the fake, planned, staged phone call from his wife in the middle of a NRA meeting. Ironically, the same type of phone call from his wife happened at prior meeting and got a lot of applause. The NRA folks were not amused and were skeptical. We all know in an important meeting you turn your cell phone off especially if you are the main speaker.

I have critiqued Ms. Clinton before in other threads so I will not add that information again.

On Democrat, One Republican; neither of which are fit for the presidency of the U.S.

Mr. John Edwards is the most decent and the most honest of all the candidates and I will vote for him although I am a Republican and always will be. The country needs Decency and Honor first. A forthright leader will foster others, here and abroad, to follow the ideals we Americans once had and can once again gain and redemonstrate to the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 02:33 PM

"Giuliani was estimated to be worth a little less than $2 million"

Bosh! He isn't worth anything near $2 million. He merely had a little less then $2 million at one time, and now he has a lot more. I wouldn't pay $300 for Rudy Giuliani. I might pay it if he would go away, though...

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: Leadbelly
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 02:36 PM

It's completely without any interest and hope for people living outside the USA who's the next president of your country because they are all the same.
Nothing will change.
Thank's to George W.

Manfred

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: Cruiser
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 02:48 PM

LH: I will be paying money to help make Giuliani go away by contributing to the Edwards campaign.

Manfred: I despise Mr. Bush as much as others. We can recover from his damage, albeit slowly, if we vote a decent person to the White House who the world can respect. Edwards is that person. I also look forward to the day we have an honest woman running for president because I would vote for her without reservations, Democrat or Republican.

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 02:57 PM

I would also like to see an honest woman in the White House. Or an honest man. You bet I would. Will the system allow such an extraordinary thing to happen?

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: Peace
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 03:00 PM

Good for you, Cruiser.

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: mg
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 03:07 PM

The system will allow for an honest man or woman in the white house. I do not believe that we have an honest woman currently running, at least in the major parties..we probably do have some honest men running so vote for the honest man this time. Wait for the honest woman. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: Leadbelly
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 03:32 PM

Cruiser:"We can recover from his damage,..."

Sorry to say, but this will need a complete change of politics which I don't believe that this will happen.
Medium-term the USA will be isolated which I personally would regard as a disaster. That's much too pessimistic?

Manfred

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 05:00 PM

Well, we'll see. My impression is that Hillary will probably run for the Democrats this time. I regard her as a rather brilliant and very capable woman, but I also regard her as a servant of the ruling $ySStem, so I do not have high hopes for what might result from her getting elected.

As for Giuliani, that would be about as good as electing Al Capone.

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: pdq
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 05:21 PM

How "Honest John" Edwards got his hands on $152 million dollars:

"Edwards became one of America's wealthiest trial lawyers by winning record jury verdicts and settlements in cases alleging that the botched treatment of women in labor and their deliveries caused infants to develop cerebral palsy, a brain disorder that causes motor function impairment and lifelong disability."

"Dr. Murray Goldstein, a neurologist and the medical director of the United Cerebral Palsy Research and Educational Foundation, said it is conceivable for a doctor's incompetence to cause cerebral palsy in an infant. 'There are some cases where the brain damage did occur at the time of delivery. But it's really unusual. It's really quite unusual,' Goldstein said."

"Edwards' trial summaries 'routinely went beyond a recitation of his case to a heart-wrenching plea to jurors to listen to the unspoken voices of injured children,' according to a comprehensive analysis of Edwards' legal career by The Boston Globe in 2003."

"But John Hood (said)...Edwards tailored the evidence in his court cases for maximum impact. 'In pursuing his client's cases he did what many other trial lawyers do. He bent the available evidence to fit what he wanted to say."

"John Edwards' spin is always -- I am helping the little guy. But he screened his cases to the point that he only helped people that were going to make him richer".

"Dr. Lorne Hall, one of the physicians with whom Edwards reached a confidential settlement in a malpractice case involving cerebral palsy, agreed, telling The Charlotte Observer in 2003 that '[Edwards] knows how to pick cases, and he knows the ones he can win'".

"Olson said lawsuits blaming obstetricians for cerebral palsy and other infant brain damage 'may constitute the single biggest branch of medical malpractice litigation.' Cerebral palsy is diagnosed in about 8,000 infants annually in the U.S. But the recent scientific studies may make those lawsuits 'scientifically unfounded,' Olson explained. He contends that the medical malpractice suits that enabled Edwards and other trial lawyers to become rich and famous are crippling medical specialties like obstetrics, emergency room medicine and neurosurgery."

"According to the Center for Public Integrity, Edwards was able to win 'more than $152 million' based on his involvement in 63 lawsuits alone."

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 05:45 PM

It always amazes me at how much people resent people who do their jobs. As a lawyer representing someone, they are supposed to do as much as possible to win their client's case. IF they make money off it so what? That's presumably why anyone takes a job..to make money. IF the last charge in the above has some truth, then I'd say the medical specialities need to be more careful.

Yes, I think litigation has made doctors and their insurance companies extra-leery, but I am sure there is a different way of hanlding things IF we were to get a decent socialised medical program in place. How about you in the UK and Canada? What happens in your country if a doctor does something terrible? Can you sue them? Does it happen often? Does the government make it right, so to speak? Do you haev lawyers earning large fees for lawsuits?

I'd rather have a lawyer who made a bundle, than a warmongering son of an oil whore.

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: pdq
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 05:58 PM

Someone who works hard to find and refine oil is honorable. It means we can have a modern society, travel where we want and heat our houses.

Someone who sues doctors so they cannot do their job and puts health clinics out of business is a parasite on our society. When he uses his ill-gotten millions to build a 28,00 square foot house with an Olympic-sized pool, professional bowling ally and basketball court, that person is much closer to being a w***e, although that term is really quite rude.

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: pdq
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 06:26 PM

...from another website:

"Put 28,000 square feet in perspective for me."

A: I"t's about 80% the size of a football field, not counting the end zones. To give Edwards some credit for his modesty, The Breakers, the symbol of gilded age prosperity built by the robber-baron Vanderbilt family, is around 60,000 square feet. So if Edwards intends to build a house that will serve as an example of hideous conspicuous consumption that will be visited for decades to come, perhaps he has set his sights a tad low."

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: Cruiser
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 06:51 PM

pdq,

We are unable to choose from a field of saints, so the least evil, most honest, most forthright, most decent person is Mr. Edwards. Sure, he was (is) a brilliant lawyer and he can use that to his advantage when dealing with world leaders, good and bad. I want as decent as possible a family man, or woman, who has done well for themselves and will try to help those who are less fortunate.

Mr. Edwards is the only one I have found through my difficult search who is even close to the last best president I think we had in my lifetime, Dwight D. Eisenhower. Before you start, yes, he was flawed. He was just like you are, I am, and every other human being is regarding potential character flaws, but he was the best president overall, to date. Mr. Carter was the most decent, but he was an ineffective president, for many reasons. Mr. Edwards has the closest combination of those qualities from both men, although imperfect, that current politics has to offer.

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: pdq
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 07:14 PM

Cruiser,

I said in another thread months ago that I could support Pataki, Giuliani or Romney. All are fine men and have proven themselves as executives, something that was once expected of a man who would head our exective branch of government. I agree that Eisenhower was an under-rated president, but I believe Carter was the worst president in history, based both on economic and foreign policy disasters.

What you may not realize is that Hillary is already the Democrat nominee. The others are just part of the dog & pony show that travels around the country to give the news media a reason to talk about their, sorry the, candidates.

We will disagree on this one, but you are a true gent and should post to Mudcat more often.

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 07:24 PM

Yeah, my impression is also that Hillary is already the Democratic nominee, and the rest is as you say, pdq, the "dog & pony show". Mind you, I think that the entire presidential election process (meaning BOTH parties and their slate of candidates) is a dog and pony show... ;-)

That's not to say that there aren't better or worse dogs and ponies among those being offered, of course. Still, it is just a show. Kind of like the World Series or the Superbowl, only even more expensive...and it lasts longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 07:28 PM

My comments refer only to Rudy G. As it was stated today in a piece in the NYT--what, actually has he done after leaving office and 9/11. Mostly line his pockets with much cash and nothing that supports his claim of "involvement"---other than being stuck there that horrible day.

All other criticism of him aside by the NYFD and others his term as mayor was abysmal as far as the public was concerned, as far as race relations were concerned, and much more. Then came 9/11 (I hate that term--September 11, 2001) and he, all of a sudden, became the media appointed "Country's Mayor".   

Was his cell phone interruption by his loving 3d wife for real (at the NRA clambake) or was it staged. Either way it just showed what his priorities are. Here is a scenarion for Rudy as Pres.----"Incoming planes---wait a sec I am talking with my "honey"--get back to me in a few moments". Wow--even better than GWB and his reading to the class during the airplane hijackings.

As to his NRA speech---he sure managed to spin his anti-gun thing as mayor in NYC to "...well, after 9/11 we have to be alert". Right---your handgun is going to kill a personal friend of Bin Laden. Who knows--maybe even old Osama himself even though our esteemed president gave up the chase because-- MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

Rudy has a word that can be applied to him in most situations---his ethnicity probably does not think of it---CHUTZPAH

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 07:44 PM

Gee, I guess someone forgot to inform us Democrats of who we've apparently already nominated. Well, fuck that for democracy, eh?

Oh, and you bitch about consumer consumption then praise those who perpetuate the raping of the earth's resources and call it honourable? And, before you say anything, remember I was raised an oilfield brat.

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 08:01 PM

Giuliani was on his way out in NYC. He is a power hungry demigod whose qualities happened to be needed in the 911 catastrophe. His outrageous claims that he spent as much time in Ground Zero as those brave men who cleaned out the area for months following the tragedy is a disgrace.

It is too soon to predict who will actually run. How many $800,000+ questionable donations before Hillary's credibility it totally trashed? Not soon enough as far as I am concerned. She can't win...PERIOD!

Cruiser - if Edwards' main claim to the throne is his similarity to Eisenhower...that is hardly a plus.

I am sick of them all and may actually not vote for the first time since I have been eligible.

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 08:05 PM

"demigod"??? Don't you mean demagogue? I would hate to think of Giuliani as having godlike powers...

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 08:07 PM

Afterthought: I find it hilarious that Hillary Clinton's lies (in her official biography) about her namesake is such a concern to you, Cruiser. Where were you when she "misplaced" documents critical to an official inquiry and then "found" them behind a dresser? And she had no idea ole Bill was screwing around on her until the papers and the Republicans outed him? Yeah, right.

Hillary has always had her own political agenda. She will lie, cheat and steal to get there. Maybe that is true of all politicians but she is the only one who played the "injured, forgiving wife" while she was First Lady. A disgraceful performance.

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 08:13 PM

Dammit, Sins, don't give up your vote! They don't deserve that capitulation!

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 08:30 PM

LH--

I'm of the same opinion as Kat. Neither your prediction that Hillary has the nomination nor your pronouncement that the $ystem will prevent any worthwhile person becoming president of the US are the last words on the topic. And in fact you may now be becoming aware how we would like for once to hear some actual evidence to back up your pontifications on how the US is a) bent on world imperialism or b) prisoner of capitalism, such that it makes no difference who is president.

Please be sure to take your evidence only from other administrations than that of G W Bush. As I and others have said, it's clear that he is the worst president ever in the history of the US. But, as I've also said, he's sui generis.   So for your theories to hold water, you must show a continuing trend.

Looking forward to your evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 08:31 PM

If you refuse Hillary your vote over catty stuff like that, SINSULL, I will get Chongo and his buddies to picket your residence and throw rotten fruit at the windows. They'll hang around for weeks, hooting, drinking, and carrying on. They'll assault your pets and tear up your garden. Your life will become a virtual hell. You have been warned. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 08:43 PM

I post here mainly just for something to do, Ron, not because I have anything I need to prove to you. I seriously don't have anything I need to prove to you, and I sure hope you don't feel you have anything you need to prove to me either, because you don't, in my opinion.

We're just people who like to talk. Live with it.

I am not predicting that Hillary has the nomination, I am saying she probably has it, as far as I can see right now, but I might be wrong, because I am far, far, FAR from being omniscient! (grin)

And so is everyone else here.

I think the USA's search for world imperialism is bloody obvious...but it's quite similar to any other leading power's search for the same. The USA just happens to be the #1 power on the globe at the moment, that's all. I've said that again and again and again, but you don't seem to hear me. The USA is simply now doing what Britain once did, what France once did, what Germany once did, what Spain once did, what Japan once did, what Rome once did...

I will criticize whoever the hell is doing it at any given time, because that's my nature. I hate imperialists. If you don't like my opinion, well, that's probably because you're an American. An accident of birth. You might've been born French, in which case you'd most likely agree with me about the USA. ;-)

You want evidence? It's out there. You don't need me to tell you where it is...just go and find it yourself. There are books enough of evidence to fill a library.

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: Cruiser
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 09:16 PM

Sinsull: The reason lying about her namesake is so important is because both she and Mr. Clinton still lied in writings about it *after* they and everyone knew it was impossible for her to be named *after* someone's event if she was *born* 6 years *before* Sir Hillary's summit event. Both Mr. and Mrs. Clinton have demonstrated they will lie about important and unimportant events with equal disingenuousness. Such actions exhibit serious character flaws. I know about the other issues you stated and I purposely preference my comments that I was not going to reiterate my negative comments regarding Hillary.

Kat:   I worked as an oil field roustabout and as a hand on a logging rig setting up charges for perforating oil well casings. Therefore, like you, I am not biased against oilmen.

Pdq: Thank you. If Hillary becomes the Democrat candidate, I will vote for the next decent person I can find and that will be Mr. Romney. Although I am an atheist, I have respect for Mormons I have known in my life. Regarding Romney's flip-flopping, as with Kerry, positions and decisions change if based on new or different evidence. Romney is also a good family man and yes, an accomplished executive.

LH & Ron: Pollsters have Ms. Clinton as clearly the frontrunner by many percentage points with Mr. Edwards a distant 3rd, Obama as second, and Richardson is out of the running. The average of the 12 main polls:

RCP Average        09/07 - 09/19        -        41.8        23.0        14.3        3.7

Clinton +18.8

I will simply do all I can to prevent either Hillary or Rudolph from becoming president.

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 09:28 PM

Well....if you could uncover evidence that they (Hillary and Rudy) have been having an illicit, torrid and highly secret affair for the past year even while campaigning for opposing poltical parties, Cruiser, I think that would definitely do it...

Get cracking and find that evidence! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: Peace
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 09:49 PM

I certainly have to agree with the title of this thread.

"Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani"

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: Cruiser
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 09:50 PM

Little Hawk: The one thing I can respect about Hillary is I do not think she would commit adultery.

Had Hillary divorced Mr. Clinton and admitted some errors, I would have strongly considered voting for her because I would like to see a woman as president. She is also very intelligent. However, staying with Mr. Clinton and having him campaign for her demonstrates to me that she is ethically and morally beyond redemption, unfortunately, at least by my standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 09:58 PM

Understood. I also do not think she would commit adultery. That's why I had fun making that ridiculous suggestion above...

Hillary's an interesting character with a number of discernable flaws. Above all, she's a professional politician. People who are that will do and say anything to get elected, because that's how the game is played.

Jimmy Carter was too nice a man, too decent a man, for the rough game of politics, and I think that was also true of Gerald Ford.

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 10:49 PM

Cruiser, do you honestly think a divorced woman would have a snowball's chance in you know where of successfully running for Prez? No way would that fly in this country, though I don't have a problem with it. I like that she has Bill campaigning. I think he was one of the most brilliant minds we've had in a Prez, ever. If a woman IS going to become Prez, it will be a woman who plays the game on "their" ground, i.e. older, white males who've been running the majority of the show forever. I don't like saying that, it is so cynical, but I do believe it.

I have relatives who are Mormon and whom I dearly love, but there is no way, as a woman, that I would ever vote one in as Prez, esp. Mitt. You ought to hear what folks in Massachusetts have to say about him.

LH, please differentiate between the Shrub and the USA when you're flinging stuff around.:-) There are so many of us who do NOT want to be world imperialists. I hate being lumped in with that bastard.

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: Cruiser
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 10:58 PM

LH: Yes, I knew your comment was facetious; you are good at both those type responses and with reasoned, thoughtful replies.

My first humorous thought was, I wonder what their kids would look like….

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 11:04 PM

So LH--still no evidence that the US, under other presidents than GWB, has been bent on "world imperialism"? I assure you we'll give the opinion of one Canadian citizen all the weight it deserves on this question, as well as the other one about exactly why it does not matter who the US elects as president--the $ystem will still rule.

But you should be aware that the lack of any evidence whatsoever may possibly undermine the undoubted value of your ideas. Not that we would ever want to characterize your statements on these two topics as grandiloquent drivel. But to avoid any chance of this, you might want to actually provide some evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 11:24 PM

Ah, c'mon, Ron, don't pick on LH. The Canadians are our friends and I mean that, sincererly, LH!

Gore Vidal says there have been others:

In his latest book Imperial America: Reflections on the United States of Amnesia acclaimed author Gore Vidal writes that, "Not since the 1846 attack on Mexico in order to seize California has an American government been so nakedly predatory." Gore Vidal joins us in our firehouse studio to discuss President Bush, elections and much more. From HERE.

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: Cruiser
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 11:35 PM

Kat: Yes ma'am, I would certainly vote for a divorced women who demonstrated that she put matters of the head (mind) above matters of the heart realizing that early on she wanted to be president some day.

There are conservative Republican men like me who would have given great weight to Ms. Clinton had she made a different decision. Making what I consider the easier of the 2 decisions, she demonstrated that she was unable to make tough decisions on a personal level resulting in major doubts of what she would decide on major decisions of matters of State on a national and world level.

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 11:48 PM

I think it's reasonable that anybody who makes a statement on a political thread should be willing--and able--to back up that statement. The Canadians are our friends, yes, but, it would be good if those of us who oppose Bush start trying to make sense--all the time. Sure the Right has its conspiracy theories--but that doesn't mean that we on the other side have to sign on to simplistic theories of how the world works.

In fact, I feel pretty strongly that the idea that it does not matter who the US elects as president is not only wrong but pernicious. It encourages people to stay at home rather than vote. In 2004, as usual, the turnout was pathetic. Who knows how many stayed home from exactly the conviction we are discussing--that it wouldn't make any difference? Meanwhile the "true believers", determined to stop the Godless plague of homosexual marriages they had been warned about, came out in droves.

And we are paying the price.

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 11:50 PM

Well, Cruiserdarlin'...I appreciate that you would vote for a divorced woman. I would submit to you, though, that you are making a lot of assumptions about Hillary's choices of whether to shake off Bill, no pun intended, or stick with him.:-) A woman, esp. one with a child, has so many factors to consider when contemplating divorce. It is not something any of us ever decided lightly. And, not only did she have all of her own personal things to think about, as well as those of their child, but she was the First lady at the time and there was the stability of the whole nation to consider, too. That's something most of us will never have to consider and is a heavy burden, imo.

I also would hope folks would consider that a woman who did have matters of the heart to consider just might be a bit better at being a president than men who often use only their minds when making earth-changing decisions. That's not a very elegant way to say what I mean, but I think you get my gist. Many Native American tribes were matriarchal or at least gave the elder women as much voice as the men. There were good reasons for that.

Personally, I think our country would benefit greatly from a co-presidency, man and woman, married or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 12:24 AM

I was responding only to your last posting asking LH to provide info on any other prez who has been so imperialistic.

One of the stickers on my car says, "Build Democracy...VOTE."

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: Janie
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 01:02 AM

I am still completely undecided about who I will vote for in the Democratic primary, except that I know it will NOT be John Edwards. I voted for him for US Senate, but would not do so again. Why? Because instead of taking the time to learn how to be effective, he pretty much immediately began running for President. I had some professional dealings with his Senate staff during his brief time there, and was astounded at their incompetence. I also was very disappointed in his voting record as a Senator. I see no evidence he is at all qualified to deal with national or international issues.

I wish his ambition and ego were not so large that he believed he did not need to learn to be effective in the national arena. I wish he wanted to be a big fish in a small pond, at least at first. I wish he thought he had some things to learn before he reached for the presidency.

I wish he wanted to be governor of North Carolina. He would be remarkably effective in that capacity, and many Dems. in North Carolina would be most pleased to support him in that. 'ceptin' he ain't interested in such small potatoes.

He does not have particularly strong support among Democrats in his home state for his run at the presidency.

PDQ, what you mistakenly believe is a scathing indictment of Edwards, is simply a commentary on the realities of our legal system. One can insert the name of any private attorney in place of Edwards. No attorney who eventually is successful at making a good living will take a case to bring suit for financial damages that they do not strongly believe they can win. Why? Because if they don't win, they don't get paid. These are always contingency cases. Doesn't matter if you are talking malpractice, a disability appeal, a libel claim, or a personal injury suit.

Cruiser, I hope you are not really saying you would not vote for Hilary Clinton primarily because she did not divorce her husband due to his infidelity? (And I am not any more inclined at this point to vote for Clinton than I am for Obama, Bidens, or any of the other candidates - I'm not trying to encourage you to vote for her.) News flash. The Earth is not flat. The Clintons may be a political powerhouse couple, but many, many couples stay together after infidelity, even repeated infidelities, for many and complex reasons. Maintaining power, position or financial security are certainly some of the reasons, but not all. Not by a long shot.

I am not saying I think infidelity is OK. But to refuse to vote for some one who you otherwise may find approximately represents your own vision of the direction in which this country needs to go because they didn't divorce an unfaithful spouse strikes me as naive at best. FDR and Eisenhower had long-standing extramarital relationships. So, apparently, did Thomas Jefferson. Kennedy was a notable philanderer.   Read some history of world leaders, both religious and political. As far back in recorded history as you can go, well-researched biographies of Kings, Empresses, Popes, Prime Ministers, Bishops, Civil Rights leaders, etc. are rife with illicit and unsanctioned sexual encounters and relationships...and the men and women who did not divorce them. Get real. And I might suggest that the personality traits that are necessary for an individual to be a great public leader are often in direct opposition to the traits that make a person a good "family person." Ghandhi was a terrible family man, for example. People are so very complex. Including those who aspire to be leaders.

LH, I was particularly struck by your comment that Hillary Clinton has a number of discernible flaws. The public has always demanded that our political and moral leaders appear to be flawless. I sometimes wonder if this is at the heart of the general duplicity that seems to be a necessary component of the successful pursuit of power in general, and public office, in particular. I would much prefer that most of the flaws of candidates for office be discernible, for it is absolutely certain they all have flaws, just like the rest of us.

As with anyone, there are a number of things that will ultimately factor into my decision about for whom to vote, including my assessment of their personal integrity.   But the two factors that will carry the most weight are 1. how close does the vision and social philosophy of the candidate match my own? 2. How effective do I think the candidate is likely to be in realizing their vision?

It always comes down to that morally difficult task of determining to just what exent do the ends justify the means.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: Peace
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 01:18 PM

When was the last time the USA had a President who did not come from a wealthy background?

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: Janie
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 01:45 PM

Bill Clinton

Subject: RE: BS: Fabrications: Ms. Clinton & Giuliani
From: mg
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 10:47 PM

Ford, Reagan, ...mg