BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children

Subject: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 06:40 AM

According to BBC TV NEWS, there are currently 45 million US citizens deprived of health care, of which 9 million are children.

Also according to the same source, a move to bring 4 million plus of those children into access to proper care will be vetoed by Gauleiter Bush, on the grounds that it goes against the governments principle that everyone should look after himself.

Is this true?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: Alba
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 07:08 AM

It is true Don! Unbelievable as it sounds but there you have it.
Seems that GW will give his opinion about this in his Radio address today.
Following the Prez will come the Democractic Radio address which will be delivered, not by a Politician this time, but by a 12 yeard old boy.
The young Boy's speech will have my attention.
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: John O'L
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 07:18 AM

From The L.A. Times:

In a statement released after the House voted, Bush reiterated his intention to veto the bill, calling it "part of the Democrats' incremental plan toward government-run healthcare for all Americans."

Brings Stalin to mind...

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: jacqui.c
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 07:50 AM

He reckoned that this bill would allow free health care for middle class children. I would love to wipe that smirk off his face.

I love this country but despair at the thought that a leading world power can allow large numbers of its citizens to either go without, or to put themselves in bankruptcy in the event of a major illness.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 08:02 AM

No it's not true.

There are millions who do not have health insurance. Nobody is deprived of health care.

We are moving toward universal health care. We have a few rough patches to figure our way through. One of them is that our notion of medical care -- as with the rest of our economy -- followed a different track than did Europe's. We followed a track that was more market-based.

That meant that our doctors, nurses, health-care providers offered their trained services with the notion that, not only was it a field in which they were interested, but, after the often grueling and expensive road it took to get to their positions, they would be well compensated.

It is very hard for a democratic government to suddenly confiscate a portion of the private sector without making some sort of compensation for the very workers that they intend to then indenture.

Besides, following the model we have for so long, the USA has led the world in medical care, research, development, to such an extent that our Universities are -- in very large percentage -- populated by foreign students wishing to avail themselves of our "health care system" that is thought -- only by us -- to be such a failure.

Much of the inflated and difficult-to-afford health care problem stems from our being stuck somewhere in the middle between socialized medicine and market-driven medicine. The beaurocratic tinkering and the political wrangling that empowers many with promises to give one sector the labor of another is making it very difficult to rationally and objectively look at the facts and decide the best course for our future.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 08:21 AM

Is that Bush using his left or right hand?

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: GRex
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 08:26 AM

John Hardly

    Can we assume that your income is derived from private health care?

Thank God that I live in the UK.

         GRex

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 08:30 AM

I find it incrduluous that Bush, after signing one pork bill after another that benefited mostly Repubs in Congress would chooze to make his stand on fiscal responsibility with this program???

(But, Bobert... It ain't about fiscal responsibility... It's about the "s" word...)

Sh*t??? What's that got to do with it???

(No, Bobert.... The big "s" word... You know, ahhhh....SOCIALISM...)

Geeze, I never thought of it that way... Reckon it's better to have sick kids then lettin' them socialistic commies get a toe hold right here in the greatest country in the world... Spit...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 08:52 AM

Some things are obviously much more important than making sure poor people - have proper medical treatment.

Only in America, among rich nations. For American I suppose that's something to be ashamed of. But for the rest of us it's something to be thankful for - I don't mean thankful that the USA is like that, but that no one else is.

"...our Universities are -- in very large percentage -- populated by foreign students wishing to avail themselves of our "health care system" that is thought -- only by us -- to be such a failure"
No one would deny that America has some wonderful health provision - if you can afford it. That's true of quite a lot of countries in the Third World as well. Maybe we need a new category - "the medical Third World" with the USA at the head of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 08:53 AM

To be fair to Bushy (hard though that is for me), the bill he is threatening to veto basically increases the number of children covered from 6 million to 10.5 million. He wants a bill that simply extends the current program.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 09:19 AM

"That meant that our doctors, nurses, health-care providers offered their trained services with the notion that, not only was it a field in which they were interested, but, after the often grueling and expensive road it took to get to their positions, they would be well compensated."

So, it's about making sure that Doctors can continue to afford Mercedes and Country Club memberships? How dare the little kids try to take that away.

In the words of Dr. Evil "boo-frickety-hoo". A whole lot of people are in fields that they are interested in, and went through grueling and expensive training, and don't make a fraction of what doctors do.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: Alice
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 09:49 AM

Not having health insurance does keep a person from having health care.
I have experienced that myself, with my son and my friends.
Not every part of the country has health care for non-insured people.
And, if you wind up in the emergency room without health insurance here,
you are charged a higher rate than someone with insurance, and you must
prove that you will pay the bill before you receive care.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 10:32 AM

kids aren't turned away. In fact, it is illegal to turn people away from emergency rooms. That's part of one of the biggest problems we have with our "health care system" -- it is hardest hit in parts of the country with the biggest illegal immigration problems -- like California -- where the inability to turn away illegals is breaking the system. Nobody is turned away. Those who pay for their insurance have to make up the difference for those who either cannot afford, or choose not to have health insurance.

It's not about Mercedes and country club memberships. My brother is a periodontist. By the time he finished school in his early forties, he had ammassed over $100,000 in school debt. He drives used cars and has never belonged to a country club. He worked hard, put himself through school without government help, and graduated number one in his class.   The year he took his national board exam for dentistry, he got the highest score in the country (he shared that honor with a woman in CA. Yes, I'm proud of him). That's not at all uncommon. He chooses to do all of the medicade work that comes into his clinic pro bono because it costs him more to recover costs from the government beauocracy than it does to just take the loss.   But he doesn't turn anyone away. He wouldn't if he could, but he can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: Alice
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 11:11 AM

I'm not in California, I'm in Montana.
There is one hospital in this town. The residents of
this country who do not live in or near a large city do
not have recourse to a facility that will accept them
if they cannot pay. The closest large city to us is
2 states away, Denver or Seattle, and if you don't have
money for a doctor, you don't have money to travel, either.
John, you are living in a different world than
many people, so you can't relate to the situations we find
ourselves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 11:19 AM

John Hardly,
Do you really think that access to an Emergency Room is suitable "health care" for anyone let alone children? It means that every simple cut or cold goes unattended until the child has a serious problem. It means that Mom and baby or child sit literally for HOURS amid contagious people waiting to be seen while burns and broken limbs and heart attacks are (appropriately) seen first.
These same Moms work and so they are reluctant to go to the hospital ER unless it is critical.
When my son has a bad cold, I took him to the doctor. When he had a strange rash, I took him to the doctor. The cold was asthma. The rash was due to anemia. Both could have caused him serious health problems had they not been treated immediately. I had health insurance.
I think the republicans are right - Medicare was the first step. Child health care will follow and eventually health care for all. It works in other countries. The rich will still have access to private health care and doctors driving Mercedes will still afford them.

For those supporting nationalized health care, keep in mind that things will change very quickly. Non-emergency and elective surgeries will not be immediately available. Now if my doctor finds a suspicious lump, I see a specialist the same day or within 24 hours. That simply won't happen. You will wait for surgeries that you think are critical but the doctors know better. As with everything else, there will be a downside.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 11:24 AM

Alice,

It nearly breaks my back to pay for my own health insurance. It always has. I've been self-employed for thirty years.

The difference is that I don't expect that it is my right to indenture the people who work in health care just because I want their services and cannot pay for them. If I expect to change our country's implied contract with the millions of health care workers who took it upon themselves to labor and risk to put themselves in a field of their choice, then I expect that their compensation should somehow figure into the new "contract".

And the old cliche of the country club lounging, mercedes driving doctor is outmoaded and inaccurate. The majority (when I last saw the statistics) of med students (other than foreign students) are women from the middle class who worked hard to achieve in high school.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: pdq
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 11:27 AM

"The rich will still have access to private health care..."

That is an assumption you should not make. When the US goes to a national socialized medical system, private practice will be outlawed. The plan designers are not interested in talking the doctors into joining the new system. Like Hillary, they want the power to tell you what to do or face consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: Alice
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 11:29 AM

I don't have a problem with health care workers getting fair compensation. I never said they should not be paid fairly. I have been self employed without the ability to afford health insurance and employed by companies that could not afford to provide health insurance.
Not everyone's experience is the same as yours. My values are that life and death situations are more important than profit.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 11:36 AM

"John Hardly,
Do you really think that access to an Emergency Room is suitable "health care" for anyone let alone children?"

No. But that's not the question I was answering, is it?

The unqualified statement was "45 million US citizens deprived of health care, of which 9 million are children". They are not deprived of health care. They cannot be turned away. We are not the cruel bastards that Don (wysiwyg)T implies in his initial post. We are not depriving anyone of health care. What we have is millions of people without health insurance, not without health care..


"The rich will still have access to private health care and doctors driving Mercedes will still afford them."

But as you know, the sticking point to our adopting universal health care is that those same "wealthy" -- that is, anyone making more than $75,000 per annum -- will have to pay for universal health care for EVERYONE first...and THEN, if they can still afford it on top of that paying for health insurance, they can then pay for private health care. It's the only way that universal health insurance can be paid for.

Do the doctors you know drive Mercedes? The ones I know do not. My brother drives a 2004 Dodge Caravan. My doctor drives a honda. In fact, I don't know a doctor who drives a Mercedes.

"For those supporting nationalized health care, keep in mind that things will change very quickly. Non-emergency and elective surgeries will not be immediately available. Now if my doctor finds a suspicious lump, I see a specialist the same day or within 24 hours. That simply won't happen. You will wait for surgeries that you think are critical but the doctors know better. As with everything else, there will be a downside. "

Yup. On top of that -- competition and market forces being what they are -- those dependent upon the new universal health care will not get be best doctors. The best doctors will be going to the private practices where they can be be paid for their labor, knowledge and risk.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: Alice
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 11:39 AM

A doctor, even if not the best doctor is better than NO doctor, which has been our family's experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 11:41 AM

"My values are that life and death situations are more important than profit."

Everybody works for a "profit". "Profit" is nothing more than compensation for labor or risk. You say you value life more than profit. So, probably, does the average doctor. You are implying by that use of the word "profit" that you think that a doctor makes too much "profit". But what other field requires so much education, so much labor, and so much risk in order to profit?

I profit from my clay work. You profit from your artwork. There is nothing wrong with profit.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: Alice
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 11:44 AM

John, we support firefighters, police and public schools without them being for profit. I did not imply a doctor makes too much profit.

YOU DEFINITELY HAVE A CHIP ON YOUR SHOULDER ABOUT THIS SUBJECT.

There are systems that are non-profit that can well compensate professionals for their work, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 11:52 AM

Alice,

Not everyone who does not agree with a liberal has a chip on his shoulder. Sometimes (and I know this is a stretch for a liberal to understand, much less believe) people just disagree. And sometimes those disagreements are for very good reasons.

"There are systems that are non-profit that can well compensate professionals for their work, too. "

This sentence is an oxymoronic sentence. Compensation IS profit.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: Alice
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 11:56 AM

Compensate...to pay.
Firefighters get paid, compensated for their work.

John, I'm going to ignore the Liberal name calling. Not worth my time.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 12:42 PM

Nobody is deprived of health care.

The high cost of health care DOES cause deprivation for some:

No one seems angrier than the patients who have been denied care. Vicki Readling of North Carolina was diagnosed with breast cancer after she had quit her job and lost her employer's insurance. Readling purchased temporary insurance for herself, but when it expired she was told that because of her pre-existing condition — cancer — she would now have to pay $27,000 a year for a new policy. With an income of $60,000 and twin sons in college, she couldn't afford it.

There are plenty more stories where that came from. My own personal: I went without health insurance for several years because it was more than our rent payment and we could not afford it. I did not go to a doctor except under dire circumstances because it would have led to even more expenses we could not afford (probably the heart surgery I needed.) ER's may have to take anyone, but hospitals do NOT have to provide heart caths, MRIs etc. to any poor person who walks in off the street, nor do specialist doctors have to accept a person who cannot afford to pay them. THAT is Denial of Healthcare. I do NOT mean every doc should open their doors and go broke. I DO mean this country has to find a way to revolutionise health care NOW>

That meant that our doctors, nurses, health-care providers offered their trained services with the notion that, not only was it a field in which they were interested, but, after the often grueling and expensive road it took to get to their positions, they would be well compensated.

It is very hard for a democratic government to suddenly confiscate a portion of the private sector without making some sort of compensation for the very workers that they intend to then indenture.

Besides, following the model we have for so long, the USA has led the world in medical care, research, development, to such an extent that our Universities are -- in very large percentage -- populated by foreign students wishing to avail themselves of our "health care system" that is thought -- only by us -- to be such a failure.

Hmmm, let's see are teachers "well-compensated?" Esp. the teachers who are in our Universities teaching all those nasty furriners? Or, the ones who start our children out on the road of learning? Should they expect to be well-compensated like, oh, I don't know, say doctors?

our "health care system" that is thought -- only by us -- to be such a failure.

Did you not read the first posting? WE are not the only ones who think our system is such a failure. Most of the world agrees!

Your arguments are full of holes, John.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 12:59 PM

Doctors in the UK with our National Health Service do very well indeed financially.

And if you want to pay for private medicine, directly or through some insurance scheme, it's there. It can be handy for getting tests done in a hurry - but when it comes to actual treatment, most sensible people stick with the NHS. Not just because it's less expensive but because its more trusted, and rightly so.

And the NHS model isn't the only one - there are other ways of running things in countries across Europe and elsewhere. What they have in common is that they all aim to provide a medical care system in which no one gets left out because they can't afford it. Not just "an Emergency Room", proper preventative medicine and proper treatment.

America is so far a I know unique among wealthy countries in having a system that excludes millions of its citizens. (And yet has a medical system that is very much more expensive overall.)

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 01:06 PM

"Doctors in the UK with our National Health Service do very well indeed financially"

That may well be, but it ignores that they did not start out in one system and end up in another. US doctors have TONS of upfront costs to get into medicine. When the government confiscates the industry, those doctors may well be left hung out to dry.

Alice,

"Liberal" is not name calling. If you can't discuss, then don't, but don't make this about me. If you disagree with me, argue with me. But don't say I have a chip on my shoulder (when that would be quite beside the point -- even if I DID have one) or claim that I am calling you "names". Liberal is a relatively accurate term when we are arguing these issues that, against better solutions, have become political. Call me a "conservative". I've never thought that was "name calling".

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 01:30 PM

In fact John when the NHS was founded here after WW2 the doctors were in exactly the position you have described above.

Despite many early misgivings, its founding principle — all citizens should enjoy good medical and health care free at the time of need and irrespective of their ability to pay — caught the public imagination and the professional idealism of many doctors.

John I think everyone knows that perfectly legitimate terms can, and are, frequently used perjoratively. I think it's easy to recocognize when this is the case too.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 02:03 PM

"I think it's easy to recocognize when this is the case too"

Quite obviously not, since "liberal" was taken as such when it was not meant as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 02:07 PM

It's a common thing, in recent times, for "liberal" to be a "dirty" name when used by conservatives; kind of like calling you a right-wing nut. Argue it all you want, it is still used in a derogatory fashion on a daily basis in our society.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 02:13 PM

You think "liberal" equates to "right wing nut" and not to "conservative"?

Holy shit. How could I EVER be perceived as polite with a bar set so high?

What is there in my use of the word (above) that would make you take it perjoratively? ...how could my use of it POSSIBLY be construed as the equivalent of "right wing nut"?

...and why are there four damn cheerleaders for the one who referred to ME as "Having a chip on (my) shoulder" -- the only true perjorative slung in the entire goddamn thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 02:30 PM

"Hmmm, let's see are teachers "well-compensated?" Esp. the teachers who are in our Universities teaching all those nasty furriners? Or, the ones who start our children out on the road of learning? Should they expect to be well-compensated like, oh, I don't know, say doctors?"

And, just for the record...as long as the perjoratives are being slung around here toward me. There is nothing about my posting that implied ANYTHING negative about foreign students in our universities. Nothing.

I did not say "furriners". I did not imply "furriners". I didn't imply anything negative about there bieng foreigners in our universities. I merely observed the obvious -- if our "health care system" is SO BAD, then why are we the high-water mark in the world for medical education? That was it. No "furriners". No negative.

Your implication was derogatory toward me. Directly. Not implied.

Have a different opinion. Argue facts. I expect to lose more than my share of arguements here.

But don't tell me I have a chip on my shoulder and dislike "furriners" in our universities (or at the very least, that I am so backwards that I don't know how to say or spell "foreigners". Yes, I only have a BS in art. And I make more than my share of typos. But I don't have an accent and I'm not afraid nor resentful, nor anything else negative about foreign students in our universities). And don't tell me how I must mean the word "liberal" and then tell me that I am the negative one in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 02:34 PM

And, yes, university professors in medicine programs are well compensated. Ask them. They chose to stay in the very competitive academic medicine because it is rewarding in many ways AND it is less risky than practice. Many do both.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 05:33 PM

I have to pick up (probably thread creep) on the comment about 'teacher compensation'....my oldest daughter, nearly 26 with a BA in early education and KNOWN for being fabulous with children just managed to get a position in the school system as an Ed TEch 3 == she grabbed it because a) it gets her in the system and b)gives her medical insurance which I have been providing for her in her 'role' as assistant to me.......and for this she is being paid the princely sum of $13600 per year. WE hope with all our hearts that she will get a teaching position in 08 -- her salary will double to a stunning $27000 -- I make so much more than that selling houses which is so much less important........

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: Alice
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 06:34 PM

Here is a link to the 12 year old's radio address mentioned at the start of this thread.


http://audio.cbsnews.com/2007/09/29/audio3311482.mp3

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 06:37 PM

RANT ALERT!!

You're house is on fire and you call the fire department. Before they will come to put out the fire, they have to check to make sure you have fire insurance on your house, and that you are covered.

Someone is trying to break into your house, so you call the police. There again, if you don't have the proper insurance coverage, you're on your own.

Would we tolerate this kind of system? Certainly not!

So why do we tolerated the same thing in our health care system?

####

I've had plenty of experience with the American health care system, and with American health insurance companies. A couple of examples:

In February of 2000, I fell in the bathroom and broke my left leg. Femur. This, on top of having had polio when I was a toddler. I wound up in the hospital for about three weeks, and came out with a titanium rod in my left femur. The surgeon undoubtedly earned his dime with a tidy bit of surgery and by the usual medical standards. The charge was several thousand dollars, a nice piece of change for an hour's work in the operating room. By the way, he's long out of medical school and any student loans have long since been paid off.

Fortunately, I am covered by my wife's health insurance (she works for the Seattle Public Library and has benefits as a city employee). But we do have to pay a substantial part of the premiums ourselves.

What gravels me is the other doctor, the rehabilitation physician who, I was told, was overseeing the physical therapy during my three week stay in the hospital.

There were a couple of different young physical therapists who were putting me through various exercises, along with a couple of really crackerjack nurses and orderlies. The hospital staff I saw every day was super!

But the doctor! Presumably, she was supervising what the physical therapists were doing, but I've had enough physical therapy in my life to know that what they were doing with me was standard procedure, and they needed no doctor's supervision to know what to do. During the three weeks, I saw them every day. During that same time, I saw the doctor five times, for about five minutes each time. She never touched me or examined me. Frankly, I don't know what she was doing in my room other than that she felt like insulting someone and I was handy. Once she dropped in when my sister, Pat, was visiting me. Pat is a graduate nurse. Pat tried to ask the doctor a couple of relevant questions about my treatment, and the doctor flew into a rage at being questioned, and stalked out of the room.

The doctor did nothing on any of those visits that could have been of benefit to me.

Yet, she charged my health insurance company $110 for each visit. What did she do to earn that $550? Not a damned thing that I could see! And that, by the way, was in addition to her basic case fee.

My bill for three weeks in the hospital was $24,000. The doctors' fees were in addition to that.

####

Along with my manual wheelchair, I have a power wheelchair. It can move at a good, swift jogging pace, it has a 25-mile range on a full charge, and with it, I can go a lot of places that I couldn't otherwise, including riding the city busses (which are equipped with wheelchair lifts). A couple of months ago, the batteries had to be replaced. It takes two 12-volt deep-cycle batteries. The charge to have Care Medical (where I bought the chair) replace the batteries was $500 ($220 per battery, plus $60 for installation).

I asked the technician who was installing the batteries "Why so much?" "Well," said the tech, "the batteries are classed as medical equipment, and they figure some insurance company is going to pay for them anyway."

I checked the labels on the batteries and called my nephew, who works for an auto supply store that, among other things, sells batteries. He said, "Those are standard marine batteries, like for a power boat. You can get them at any battery store. They should cost about 50 bucks apiece, max! Next time your chair needs batteries, fer gawdsake, call me!"

Something is bloody rotten, not in the State of Denmark (I think the Danes have this all worked out), but most certainly in the American health care system!

It's a freakin' disgrace!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 06:41 PM

The fire department and Police department are not paid by homeowner's insurance.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 06:42 PM

"Do the doctors you know drive Mercedes?"

I have seven doctors in my immediate family. Two drive Mercedes. Five belong to country clubs. All have vacation condos in the Carribean. All go on ski trips every winter. All make many times the US average salary. Yes, all work very hard. And so do a lot of people who have none of the perks listed above.

John Hardly, I admire your brother. I do not believe he is typical.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 06:44 PM

So you're saying that medical care shouldn't be paid by insurance either. I get it. It certainly would cut down on cost.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: Alice
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 06:49 PM

John, that was the point I was trying to make up-thread.
Our fire and police protection is something we all agree
is important to public safety. We pay for it collectively to
protect everyone equally. We can do the same with health care,
and doctors could be well paid, just as other countries do.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 06:51 PM

It might be an interesting exchange -- government bureaucracy for insurance profitability. I do think that insurance companies have fueled the problem far more than they've helped.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: Peace
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 06:52 PM

There is more money and less paperwork in private practice than in public practice. However, not all doctors are in it only for a buck.

Medicare has worked in Canada for decades.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 06:55 PM

Speaking of the fire department, did you know that if you are NOT in a district that pays fees into the system that the fire department will NOT respond to a fire call? At least it is so in Alaska. I couldn't believe it, when it happened in Juneau.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: Peace
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 07:00 PM

The answer for that is Mutual Aid Agreements.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: Peace
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 07:14 PM

One of the problems in that scenario, Ebbie, is that likely the fire personnel would like to respond, but if they are acting 'outside policy', their life insurance and medical coverage is void, and any liability issues would fall directly on the firefighters themselves. The correct place for pressure to fix that situation is on the districts that are being chintzy with their payments.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 07:22 PM

Well, I worked for over 20 years for a government health care system, paid for by taxes, which serves a patient population which is older than average and generally in poor health. All staff, including physicians, are on salary and receive pay commensurate with their qualifications and experience; many of the physician staff are also on the faculties of medical schools and most of the medical care facilities actively participate in the training of health care professionals at all levels. The system and the facilities within it consistently receive evaluation scores well above the US average from the Joint Commission on the Accreditation of Healthcare Organizations, and cost per patient treated is well below the US average.

I am, of course, speaking of the Department of Veterans Affairs...once called (before 1989) the Veterans Administration.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 07:42 PM

Ahhh, unless I missed soething here, this bill is about funding a program for kids from families that are either below the povert level or under 200% of the poverty level...

(Geeze, Bobert, ain't 200% above the povert level like being rich???)

No, it doesn't mean that at all... 200% over the povert level for a family of 4 is about $40K a year... Now $40K may sound like a lot of money but for a family of 4 is ain't enough for ends to meet in most faililies.... And this isn't about careless spending... It just the realities of the cost of living... The poverty levels are way low and for a good reason... The politicans don't want us to really have any idea how many families are truely struggling...

But, none the less, this thread isn't about socializing health care... It's about keeping kids heathy...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 07:45 PM

"The fire department and Police department are not paid by homeowner's insurance."

Johm, that is exactly my point. One calls the fire or police department in case of an emergency. Often, the need for health care is the same kind of emergency.

Figure it out.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: Alice
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 07:48 PM

Don, he did. See John's post a couple messages later.

Subject: RE: BS: Shrub begins new war- on sick children
From: Bee
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 07:54 PM

Hmmm... GPs here (Nova Scotia) apparently gross an average of $150,000 per year, specialists $250,000 and up. Teachers here start around $30,000 and quickly rise to 60 or $70,000.