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nailed by the prophet Amos
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Subject: nailed by the prophet Amos From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 30 Sep 07 - 08:36 PM I have started attending a new church, and I like it very much. It is a small congregation in a huge old building. At first I thought it would be depressing, but everyone is so friendly, and the services are so traditional, yet unstuffy, that I like it. Today I was asked to play an offertory song on my fretted dulcimer. I selected "All Creatures of Our God and King." I assumed most there would know the tune, and since it is from the 17th Century, it appeals to my love of early music. Imagine how I felt when I listened to the reading from the prophet Amos. He criticizes the rich people in Israel for their luxurious lifestyle: 4 You lie on beds inlaid with ivory and lounge on your couches. You dine on choice lambs and fattened calves. 5 You strum away on your harps like David and improvise on musical instruments. 6 You drink wine by the bowlful and use the finest lotions, but you do not grieve over the ruin of Joseph. ======= There I was, all set to improvise on my musical instrument then and there! Because when I play the dulcimer, I sound out the tune and make up the accompaniment as I go along. I'd been warned, but it was too late to change anything. I set the dulcimer upon the lid of the grand piano with rubbery cloth to keep it from sliding and to prevent any scratching. I played the hymn twice, once in D and once in A. In between I modulated! Let's hope the prophet Amos doesn't hear tell about that. I do wonder whether it would have okay with Amos to play musical instruments while following written music. Only written music was not to come for centuries. Or was it? |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 30 Sep 07 - 09:07 PM FORGET....wonder whether it would have okay with Amos
The question is...."Are YOU on the square....with God?"
If so....nothing else matters.
If not google: "Jesus Christ Salvation CCC" .... and follow along.
Sincerely,
I am most sorry you are having "doubts".... talk with the reverand/pastor/minister THIS week...TOMORROW .... is even better...walk-ins are always welcome. |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: SINSULL Date: 30 Sep 07 - 09:55 PM leenia, I hope you made up for the affront by foregoing the fatted calf and grieving over the ruin of Joseph. SINS |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: John Hardly Date: 30 Sep 07 - 10:00 PM Whatsa figpicker know about dulcimer music anyway? |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Sep 07 - 10:49 PM We had the same reading at St. Teresa's Catholic Church, and I think Garrison Keillor will tell you they had the same one at Lake Wobegon Lutheran Church. I told the lector, a 7th-grade girl, that she was supposed to yell at the people like Amos did. You have to take the reading in context. In last week's reading, Amos was complaining how the wealthy people were living lives of luxury and cheating the poor (almost like "Rigs of the Time"). The reading this week is a little problematic when taken out of context. One commentary I use said this:
As God's prophet, Amos viewed these extravagances as divinely intolerable. What the people perceived as evidence of political stability, Amos understood as religious complacency and imbalance. The prophet's words virtually drip with the disgust he felt at such insensitivity. [The Sanchez Archives, National Catholic Reporter]. Our lector did a pretty darn good job, although I teased her that she wasn't quite mean enough when she yelled at the people. In our parish, you could have played your dulcimer with as much passion and improvisation as you pleased, and we would have loved it. I'd be surprised if anybody would complain at your church, either. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 30 Sep 07 - 10:52 PM I thought he was a cowherd, John. Sins, I did forego the fatted calf. We went to a barbecue joint and I ordered the salmon. Saved! I don't understand what was meant by "the ruin of Joseph." === Re: The question is...."Are YOU on the square....with God?" Gargoyle, I took special care in driving home because in the hour that it sat in the warm church, the dulcimer went dismally flat. I thought I could just pick it up and play it. Wrong! I did't want to have to explain to St Peter why I played something so out of tune in the Lord's house. However the Lord seems to tolerate pipe organ, the second-wobbliest instrument, so maybe I would have been in the clear. |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Sep 07 - 11:06 PM Joseph was one of the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel, the northern kingdom that was conquered by the Assyrians in 721 BCE. Amos was telling the southern kingdom of Judah that they would suffer the same fate if they didn't clean up their act. Gee, I love dulcimer music. One of the great regrets of my life is that I spent a couple of hours in the living room of Sandy and Caroline Paton, with dulcimers hanging all over the walls - and I didn't get to hear Caroline play. She was too angry about Bush stealing the 2000 election, and not in a mood for music at all. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 01 Oct 07 - 10:54 AM I get it. The Assyrians came down and conquered what had been Joseph's territory. Too bad about Sandy Paton's dulcimers, Joe. I'm sorry you didn't get to hear them, but I certainly sympathize with her point of view. If you like Bible history, here is a fascinating book which I found in my public library: 101 Myths of the Bible: How Ancient Scribes Invented Biblical History by Gary Greenberg (Paperback - Sep 2002) It shows how Bible tales are linked to other mythologies of the ancient Near East. A true story - Greenberg's book describes an Egyptian myth of two gods, Tohu and Bohu, who are in constant turmoil. Shortly after reading about them, we were in Paris, France, and on a placard in a train station we saw an ad that started, "If you don't like the tohu-bohu of the underground..." Remarkable! (the ad was in French, of course.) Back to music - last night I was playing tunes from the Lutheran Book of Worship, and I came across one called Arise, My Soul Arise. The tune is a Finnish folk song. It is a crooked tune that is not in a regular key. Who can resist a crooked tune not in a regular key? Got to play it, see how it sounds, make it sing! Since next week will be only my second offertory, I don't believe I will lay it on the congregation just yet. I'm thinking "Praise to the Lord" joined to "Holy Manna." |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: John Hardly Date: 01 Oct 07 - 12:35 PM "I thought he was a cowherd, John." He was both. But "cowherd" doesn't sound as funny as "figpicker". I am a Martin and Gibson picker. 7:14 Amos answered Amaziah, "I was neither a prophet nor a prophet's son, but I was a shepherd, and I also took care of sycamore-fig trees. Joe, Learn something every day. I didn't know there was a tribe of Joseph. I thought Joseph was actually represented (as one of the twelve sons of Israel) by HIS two sons -- Ephraim and Manasah (not Stephen Still's famous band)-- One of the sons supplanting the place of the son that lost his birthright and the other instead of Joseph. I'm rusty on why not Joseph and why not the other son -- but seems like it was that story of not being willing to be part of the lineage of promise. |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 01 Oct 07 - 10:04 PM Thanks for the information, John. Gary Greenberg says in his book of Bible myths that the twelve sons of Jacob were imaginary figures created to explain twelve regions (with names in foreign tongues) that the Jews encountered when they populated the Holy Land. What a relief! We can quit worrying about what happened to ten of the twelve tribes. |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: Kent Davis Date: 02 Oct 07 - 02:13 AM Leenia and John, As one who keeps sheep, and whose fence is currently down because of my neighbor's evil cows, I must disagree with the cavalier equation of shepherd and cowherd. Sheep good;cows bad. Regarding Greenberg's theory about the 12 sons of Jacob, I would remind you of Occam's razor. (If some old records say Pennsylvania was named for William Penn, and if no old records give any other derivation of the name, then maybe, just maybe, Pennsylvania is named for...) In any case, the names of the twelve sons of Jacob do not quite correspond to the names of the tribal areas, which is pretty hard to explain if the sons were invented based on the areas. Kent |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: Doug Chadwick Date: 02 Oct 07 - 03:41 AM Sounds like sour grapes to me. If Amos had been able to improvise, he would have declared as a blessing. DC |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 02 Oct 07 - 10:56 AM Right on, Doug! When trying to understand something a person has done or said, it is good to consider jealousy, the crazy emotion. My project for this morning is to see how "When Morning Gilds the Skies," which has a tune published in 1551, sounds on the dulcimer. |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: John Hardly Date: 02 Oct 07 - 11:24 AM "In any case, the names of the twelve sons of Jacob do not quite correspond to the names of the tribal areas, which is pretty hard to explain if the sons were invented based on the areas. " All the above is said in fun and jest, but just out of curiousity... I agree with your Occam's razor point. But even more...you're not saying that the names of the tribes don't match up with the sons of Jacob when taken in consideration that the sons of Joseph (Ephraim and Manasah) make up the only two tribal names that aren't directly (first generation) sons of Jacob, are you? |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: Kent Davis Date: 03 Oct 07 - 05:14 PM John Hardly, Just to satisfy your curiosity... Except for Ephraim and Manassah, the names of the tribes and the names of the sons do match. However, the the names of the tribal REGIONS match less well. The names of eight of Jacob's sons correspond to the names of eight ancient tribal regions (Asher, Naphtali, Zebulon, Issachar, Gad, Reuben, Benjamin, and Judah). A ninth son was Simeon, but the settlements of that tribe were within the boundary of Judah. A tenth son was Dan, but there were (at different times) two different tribal areas named Dan. An eleventh son was Levi, but there was no tribal region called "Levi". A twelth son was named Joseph but there was no region called "Joseph". Ephraim was one of Joseph's sons, and there was a region called "Ephraim". Manassah was also one of Joseph's sons, but there was no single region called "Manassah". One part of the tribe of Manassah lived in Bashan and nothern Gilead, areas east of the Jordan River, and another part lived in an area to the west of the Jordan. Kent |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: Joe Offer Date: 03 Oct 07 - 05:54 PM Damn. Ya gotta be precise in this bunch. I should have said that Joseph "represented" the ten lost tribes, since two of the tribes were named after his sons. Judah and Benjamin were the two tribes in the south. Everybody seems to want to view the Bible in fundamentalist terms. They want to view it as Absolute, Unquestionable Truth - or as Absolute, Unquestionable Falsehood and Deception. The Bible is important and inspiring to me from a religious standpoint, but I've also found it to be a treasure trove of colorful myth and folklore. I suppose that in some circles, I could be burned at the stake for speaking of myth, folklore, and Bible in the same sentence. I think if people took the Bible less seriously, they'd get a lot more out of it. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 03 Oct 07 - 09:39 PM I agree with you, Joe. For one thing, I think the Bible offers us the viewpoint of people who withstood terrible suffering and yet kept their faith, their identity and their ethics. To me this is far more important than the question of what tribes (if any) were where. The same applies to the early music I play. I marvel that Philip Nicolai, a minister in the 16th Century, could live through a plague and then write "How brightly beams the morning star." Joe, I bet you would really enjoy Greenberg's book. |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: John Hardly Date: 03 Oct 07 - 10:52 PM Damn. Ya gotta be precise in this bunch. I should have said that I get you now, Kent. Thanks for the explanation. If I'd read closer, I'd have seen that you said "regions" to begin with. Sorry to put you through so much typing! ********************************************************* Evehybody seems to want to view the Bible as though it couldn't possibly have a simple, straightforward, historical meaning and context -- instead it's just a fantasy. They want the security that there is no Absolute, Unquestionable Truth - or Absolute, Unquestionable Falsehood and Deception that, even though fairly easily discernable with a child's conscience, bespeaks a burnden of personal responsibility. That way, one can more or less make it up as we go along. The Bible is important and inspiring to me from a spiritual standpoint, but I've also found it to be a treasure trove of colorful folklore. "Myth" I understand, is code for "I am intellectual enough not to be caught in the trap of being thought foolish enough to believe that any of the Bible text could be simple, straightforward, historically-based narrative. I suppose that in some circles, one could be burned at the stake for speaking of myth, folklore, and Bible in the same sentence. Of course, I've never met anyone who burned people at the stake -- but that's a really good way of framing the comment so that the total non-believers here know that a person who holds the Bible as myth and folklore is basically a harmless fuzzball who has more in common with them than they do with "the religious" who are foolish enough to believe the Bible as having any more veracity or authority than your average Archie comic book when push comes to shove. I think if people didn't dismiss the Bible's obvious, contextual meaning, they'd get a lot more out of it. -John- |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: Kent Davis Date: 03 Oct 07 - 11:25 PM Joe, I promise not to burn you at the stake. By the way, I wasn't suggesting that you be more precise, nor was I responding to your post at all. I was responding to John Hardly's and leenia's posts. leenia, I agree that "the question of what tribes (if any) were where" is much less important than understanding "the viewpoint of people who withstood terrible suffering and yet kept their faith, their identity and their ethics". My attempts to answer one question do not imply that I think all other questions are unimportant. Everyone, I know you've all been on pins and needles worrying about my fence. You'll be relieved to know that it is fixed and my sheep will no longer be going astray. At least for now. Sheepishly, Kent |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: Joe Offer Date: 04 Oct 07 - 02:25 AM Well, Kent, I'm used to baffling them with bullshit. Around here, there are too darn many smart people that don't impress all that easily - so it behooveth me to do my homework . John Hardly, I look on the Bible as a sacred religious document that has had a deep impact on the essence of my life. But no, I don't think it's a scientific or historical document - and I think people who try to prove the absolute truth of all aspects of everything written in the Bible are:
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: Doug Chadwick Date: 04 Oct 07 - 02:54 AM If Amos has spent his time making his own music, he would have had less time to stick his nose into other people's business. DC |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: John Hardly Date: 04 Oct 07 - 06:47 AM "Incapable of abstract thinking. " Really? You find me incapable of abstact thinking? |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 04 Oct 07 - 12:45 PM "If Amos has spent his time making his own music, he would have had less time to stick his nose into other people's business." Doug, I've often thought the same thing when Mudcatters spend time wrangling when they could be making music. But to be fair to Amos, he had a different situation than we do. He criticizes "improvising on stringed instruments." Keep in mind that the scale had not been invented in his time. We know that the fifth was known to the ancients, but which ancients? And how ancient? Nobody knows. So maybe Amos had the fifth, but that was probably all in the way of harmony. (The third, they say, wasn't established until 1100 or 1200 in England. It was considered pretty wild at first.) So if anybody was improvising in Amos' day, the results may have been pretty painful to hear. Either painful or just plain tiresome. |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: Joe Offer Date: 04 Oct 07 - 02:33 PM I've moved this down to the non-music sectiobn since it is more a discussion of interpretation of scripture, not about music. As for sticking his nose in everybody's business, Amos was complaining chiefly about the injustices of the rich, living in luxury and cheating the poor. Within context, the passage doesn't really seem to make sense as a condemnation of improvised music, so I think we're missing a contextual key. He certainly doesn't condemn David for improvising on the harp, so it must be something about the way the rich people of Judah did their music - maybe drunken and naked or something like that. And John, I said that "people who try to prove the absolute truth of all aspects of everything written in the Bible" are incapable of abstract thinking. I didn't think your were THAT extreme in your interpretation of scripture. Are you? If you read the Book of Genesis as a news report and fail to see the folklore and allegory in it that teaches profound lessons of faith, then perhaps you are incapable of abstract thinking. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: Doug Chadwick Date: 04 Oct 07 - 03:42 PM He certainly doesn't condemn David for improvising on the harp, so it must be something about the way the rich people of Judah did their music - maybe drunken and naked or something like that. Seeing as I play a lot of my music in pubs, albeit fully clothed, I still feel me and my kind are being picked on. DC |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: Amos Date: 04 Oct 07 - 03:49 PM I think you guys are getting me all wrong. Can't you see I have reformed? Amos |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: Kent Davis Date: 04 Oct 07 - 05:30 PM I think the point of the passage is a condemnation of complacency. Improvising is not being condemned as such, any more than eating lamb or using lotion are condemned as such. These things, though not wrong in themselves, had become wrong only because the people were using them to distract themselves from what they should have been doing. Today we might say something like, "You sit there in your designer clothes with your iPods in your ears..." Take a look at the passage in context and see if you agree: Amos 6:1-12 Woe to you who are complacent in Zion, and to you who feel secure on Mount Samaria, you notable men of the foremost nation, to whom the people of Israel come! 2 Go to Calneh and look at it; go from there to great Hamath, and then go down to Gath in Philistia. Are they better off than your two kingdoms? Is their land larger than yours? 3 You put off the evil day and bring near a reign of terror. 4 You lie on beds inlaid with ivory and lounge on your couches. You dine on choice lambs and fattened calves. 5 You strum away on your harps like David and improvise on musical instruments. 6 You drink wine by the bowlful and use the finest lotions, but you do not grieve over the ruin of Joseph. 7 Therefore you will be among the first to go into exile; your feasting and lounging will end. 8 The Sovereign LORD has sworn by himself—the LORD God Almighty declares: "I abhor the pride of Jacob and detest his fortresses; I will deliver up the city and everything in it." 9 If ten men are left in one house, they too will die. 10 And if a relative who is to burn the bodies comes to carry them out of the house and asks anyone still hiding there, "Is anyone with you?" and he says, "No," then he will say, "Hush! We must not mention the name of the LORD." 11 For the LORD has given the command, and he will smash the great house into pieces and the small house into bits. 12 Do horses run on the rocky crags? Does one plow there with oxen? But you have turned justice into poison and the fruit of righteousness into bitterness- Kent |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 05 Oct 07 - 09:35 AM I agree with you, Kent. We have to take the remark in context. Clearly, improvising on stringed instruments was another thing about the rich that annoyed Amos. I believe the modern equivalent would be "They sit in recliners and watch large-screen TV's." I've decided that the Finnish tune (mentioned above) which is not in any known key is a little too strange for my second offertory. I am practicing 'Praise to the Lord' plus 'All Glory Laud and Honor' for next time. A lot of people think they don't know any early music, but some of these well-known hymns go back to the 16th and 17th centuries. |
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Subject: RE: nailed by the prophet Amos From: frogprince Date: 05 Oct 07 - 12:25 PM I'm sure your playing, even if not in any know key, would be a vast improvement over my singing, which is seldom or never in any known key. |
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