BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?

Subject: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 07:41 AM

The 2008 Olympics will be here before we know it, and the fact the Chinese Government are arguably the single most brutal regime in the world, yet the fact everyone seems to be going along with this sham as if nothing's amiss got me thinking.

In 1936 the world rejoiced in the fact Jesse Owens proved Hitler's ridiculous theories of aryan supremacy were complete bollocks right under the dictators nose. In this age of rampant commercialism and ignoring of the human rights situation in China, do you think the world will rise to the challenge and take the opportunity to tell the Chinese enough is enough or do you think we'll shut up and become complicit in the brutality and abuse of so many innocent people.

I think it's safe to say the Tibetans will not be taking their own team.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: The PA
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 08:17 AM

I think a few countries may have the balls to stand up and say they are not going, the others will still attend in the hope that this will enable them to finish higher up the medals table.

Personally I think we should not join in until China does something positive about their 'human' rights. I know this is disappointing for our team and would not be a popular decision. Perhaps in such an instance athletes could take part on their own and not representing their country. Then its their choice. Yep I know its more complicated than that.

At the end of the day, I dont think the Chinese government give a flying f*** (sorry) about what the rest of the world think of them, and will turn the situation around so they appear to be the victims in all this.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 09:50 AM

I hope PA is correct. The Burmese people do not deserve to be forgot in China's rush for world acceptance. In a word, fu#k 'em!

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 02:25 PM

Carter took a lot of flak when his administration boycotted the Olympics. It is not likely that his critics of the time will do the same today.

I wish they would.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 04:45 PM

Maybe if we all shout loud enough we can get our media to boycott it for us.

Warn the TV companies that there could be a mass turn off if they broadcast the games, and tell the journos to expect a lot of newspapers back on sale or return?

That way the participants could take part, but there would be no lucrative syndications of the show.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 04:46 PM

Dang, Don, that is bright.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: freightdawg
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 11:52 PM

A boycot would work, if the following countries were involved:

USA
Canada
England
Russia
Australia
Czech Republic (or its modern name)
Germany
Italy
Romania
N. and S. Korea

...and maybe some others.

Can anyone realistically expect this broad of a coalition to be formed (with all the political ramifications considered)?

I, for one, would like to see it happen, but its not likely.

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 08:16 AM

I was glad to hear Mr. Brown condemn the Burmese authorities for preventing democracy and arresting monks and beating them. Can I assume that Britain will now stop sending one trade delegation after another to the country whose authorities have been preventing democracy and arresting and torturing monks, nuns and just about anybody who voices opposition for years? I won't hold my breath.
I hear the Red Arrows aerobatic display team will not be allowed to appear at the London Olympics, because they are too militaristic and might offend people. I would have thought this was not as militaristic or offensive as invading Tibet and persecuting its inhabitants for 50 years.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 10:35 AM

Or, unfortunately, as offensive as invading Iraq, and murdering thousands of civilians, a couple of thousand Americans, and hundreds of Brits based on a pack of lies, but George and Tony did it.

We ain't squeaky clean enough to look down our noses at others.

I wish Gordon was part of the solution, but deep down I believe he's part of the problem, and will be till we get rid of him.

Then we can pontificate on all the other villains.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 10:58 AM

The pollution is so bad in Beijing there are conerns for the respiration of the athletes.

cartoon: track starting line with runners on respirators.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 01:32 PM

An Olympics boycott is never, ever going to happen. There is too much money to be made. I personally never watch the Olympics anymore.
It is just an excuse for disgusting displays of nationalism.
   As to the Chinese government, they have become the Teflon Totalitarians. Nothing they do keeps them from having Favored Trade Status with the USA. Even sending us toys covered in lead paint and dog food and toothpaste containing antifreeze. They did take swift action on the tainted products scandal ... They killed a government minister.
    And does anyone know anything about the mysterious incident where the top legal rep for Mattel grovelled in front of a roomful of Chinese government ministers, apologiziing that a recent recall had been embarassing to China. He said that the recall was because of Mattel's product design, even though in one of the two items it was entirely because of lead paint applied in the Chinese factory. Mattel,Inc. refused all comment on the incident.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 06:59 PM

Czech Republic (or its modern name)

That is its modern name. The other half of the old Czechoslovak Republic being, not roo surprisingly, Slovakia.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: redsnapper
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 07:21 PM

I shall not be watching them. We must each do our bit according to our conscience.

RS

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 06:21 PM

I personally will be watching the Games.
People say they want to boycott the Games for high-sounding reasons, but the truth is they just like sacrificing other people's pleasure for their own cause.

Boycotts are really mean-spirited. People who advocate Olympic boycotts should be made to walk round with a sign saying "I am sad".

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 06:23 PM

"Boycotts are really mean-spirited."

Shooting monks is a bit nasty, too.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 06:33 PM

And also, China supported the 'stern' words issued by the UN Security Council (their first on the situation in Burma) chiefly because it knew damned well people in other countries were considering boycotts.

It's no wonder people like sinless69 post under another name. Too ashamed to post under their own. Please, fu#k off.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: folk1e
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 02:58 PM

maybe the point would be better made by the athletes wearing propoganda on their vests whilst receiving their medals?
That way the media is happy and the "message" gets broadcast very widely.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 07:33 PM

Gutless piece of shit you are. Indeed and in name.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 07:40 PM

BTW, Paul, we know.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 08:34 AM

Watch the Beijing Olympics!

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 05:01 PM

Unless the Olympics get blocked from the TV stations of the nations which boycott, any national boycott will be meaningless.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 05:43 AM

Many well intentioned folks will be going just to get oriented!

Art

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 06:14 AM

"Many well intentioned folks will be going just to get oriented!"

Good point - no point inspoiling their fun with the awkward truth of torture and oppression. If this were Muslims, Jews or Christians being herded into gulags there'd be another world war. Tibetans and dissidents? Who gives a fuck? Not us - it's the 100 metre hurdles!

Just to get you in the mood, here are some sites to get you acquainted with some of subtler aspects of the Chinese judcial system:

The mainstays of this system are the Chinese gulags, or Laogai:

www.laogai.org

A warning with this one - some of these pictures are not pretty, but then if you think it's OK to watch the beach vollyball you might want to consider the cost paid by those with the guts to stand up to butality and injustice, or those millions of innocent Chinese languising in concentration camps:

Google image search for 'Laogai'

This site has a comprehensive list of the known information of Laogai by provice:

Laogai Research Foundation

Many of these camps are using forced labour to produce products destined for markets in the west.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 07:08 AM

OK.
Some serious reasons not to boycott the Olympics.

1) Punishing China for the actions of Burma and Sudan is unfair. Like a teacher punishing the whole class for the actions of a few.

2) A boycott would be divisive. If a seious boycott campaign began, we'd spend all our time arguing about whether to boycott and the human rights issues would be sidelined.

3) The West has very little moral authority now. Invasions of Afganhistan and Iraq, little restraint on Israel for bombing Lebanon etc. A boycott could be seen as another example of Western hypocrisy - and could push some countries closer to China/Russia etc.

4) Deadline politics is bad politics. The boycott campaign effectively wants China to solve Burma/Darfur/Tibet/Taiwan/Falun Gong etc all by 8/8/08.
This is insanely optimistic. Also linking so many campaigns to the Olympics means there is serious risk of the campaigns blowing themselves out once the Games are over.
We need a more considered longer-term approach.

5) Do we really want to antagonise China? - snubbing or humiliating China would not be a good thing for international realations. A boycott would in my view create an angry and resentful China which would not be a good thing for the world.
There are numerous ways to stand up to China but deliberate humiliation is not the way to conduct international politics.

6) This could be seen as a snub to the Chinese people. I'm sure some will say that millions of Chinese are against the Games. They are probably related to the thousands of Iraqis who were going to cheer the Americans going into Baghdad.
I'm sure most Chinese want their Games to be the best ever. Snubbing them could make them rally behind their government and support a more beligerent post-Olympic China.

7) Human rights in China are a problem as stigweard points out but they were also a problem when the Women's Soccer World Cup was held there, also the Formula 1 Grand Prix, the Beijing tennis etc.
Small, regular events like these do more to legitimise China than a single event like the Olympics. This proves that the boycott is merely opportunist.

8) The Olympics will be propaganda for China. Nonsense.
Agreed, the Games put China in the spotlight, so counter propaganda is being used everyday against China. By the time Beijing 2008 comes around, the world will know what bastards the Chinese government are. Why spoil it by having a boycott.

9) I still believe the Olympics can be a force for good. Olympic solidarity gives money to poor countries to develop sport to attempt to level the playing field. A successful Olympics may help in the opening up of China. Especially after China's pre-Olympic paranoia has gone. I say may because nothing is certain.

10) Finally, the athletes,. It does seem very unfair that Soccer players, tennis players, motor racing drivers are able to pursue their lucrative jobs unaffected by boycotts, buit the little guys like archers, rowers, judo players etc for whom the Olympics is their only taste of the big time lose out.
Boycotts hurt the little guys in sport and leave the rich unaffected.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 07:09 AM

By the way the last post was mine.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 07:09 AM

And the other major country with a prison-labour economy lkarge enough to be economically significant is the US. Of course they're not going to make waves when China does the same.

Nor is a country founded on genocidal expropriation goign to complain when China (or Israel, or Indonesia, or Morocco) does the same.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 04:48 AM

1) Punishing China for the actions of Burma and Sudan is unfair. Like a teacher punishing the whole class for the actions of a few.

Not really - China is protecting it's interests in these regions by backing oppressive regimes much like it's own, once more to the cost of innocent people. Don't forget the role Tiawan is going to play at some part in the future. If we simply let China do as it wishes anywhere in the world we are creating an even bigger problem for future generations to sort out.

2) A boycott would be divisive. If a seious boycott campaign began, we'd spend all our time arguing about whether to boycott and the human rights issues would be sidelined.

People will of course debate these matters, but not doing something because not everybody agrees is a poor excuse. Thank god the US Civil Rights movement etc did't think like that.

3) The West has very little moral authority now. Invasions of Afganhistan and Iraq, little restraint on Israel for bombing Lebanon etc. A boycott could be seen as another example of Western hypocrisy - and could push some countries closer to China/Russia etc.

Very true, but thats still not an excuse for complacency - if you're willing to sit back and let this regime systematically abuse the human rights of millions, it means you agree.

4) Deadline politics is bad politics. The boycott campaign effectively wants China to solve Burma/Darfur/Tibet/Taiwan/Falun Gong etc all by 8/8/08.
This is insanely optimistic. Also linking so many campaigns to the Olympics means there is serious risk of the campaigns blowing themselves out once the Games are over.
We need a more considered longer-term approach.

In the case of Tibet, we've had a long-term approach of complete capitulation to the Chinese for years - the first warnings that B.lair wasn't all he was cracked up to be was when he effectively stopped peaceful demostrations against the Chinese leader when he vistyed the UK in the late 90's. There is no chance of the problem being resolved before the Olympics and nobody in their right mind thinks there is.

5) Do we really want to antagonise China? - snubbing or humiliating China would not be a good thing for international realations. A boycott would in my view create an angry and resentful China which would not be a good thing for the world.
There are numerous ways to stand up to China but deliberate humiliation is not the way to conduct international politics.

This attitude is so misguided as to be laughable. A China which feels it can do what it wants without condemnation is not a good thing for the world. Are you really suggesting we ignore human rights abuses? Would you have ignored Hitler?

6) This could be seen as a snub to the Chinese people. I'm sure some will say that millions of Chinese are against the Games. They are probably related to the thousands of Iraqis who were going to cheer the Americans going into Baghdad.
I'm sure most Chinese want their Games to be the best ever. Snubbing them could make them rally behind their government and support a more beligerent post-Olympic China.

Apart from the increasingly-westernised cities of the east coast if the country, most of the nation will have far more pressing matters that a sports competition to worry about. Your insinuation that Chinese protesting against the games are somehow deluded about their position is ignorant at best and deeply insulting to people who live in fear in an oppressive state without even the most basic freedoms we take for granted.

7) Human rights in China are a problem as stigweard points out but they were also a problem when the Women's Soccer World Cup was held there, also the Formula 1 Grand Prix, the Beijing tennis etc.
Small, regular events like these do more to legitimise China than a single event like the Olympics. This proves that the boycott is merely opportunist.

Opportunist? How? To what end? You're right about the other sporting events, but I'm not in favour of shutting China off from the outside world, that would be counterproductive. The Olympics is not some specialist sporting event, but one seen by millions across the globe - what sort of people would we be if we ignore these issues and captiulate without a word of protest to the oppressor?

8) The Olympics will be propaganda for China. Nonsense.
Agreed, the Games put China in the spotlight, so counter propaganda is being used everyday against China. By the time Beijing 2008 comes around, the world will know what bastards the Chinese government are. Why spoil it by having a boycott.

True - why ruin anyone's fun by pointing out something as nasty as torture and summary executions? Forced labour can be tool for good! Ethnic cleansing and the resettlement of Han chinese as a tool for social remodelling - woo-hoo!

9) I still believe the Olympics can be a force for good. Olympic solidarity gives money to poor countries to develop sport to attempt to level the playing field. A successful Olympics may help in the opening up of China. Especially after China's pre-Olympic paranoia has gone. I say may because nothing is certain.

Watch this space - economic and political pressure is the way to open up China, this will me a propagandists dream come true if nobody questions the actions of the Chinese Leadership. There are long-reaching global implications to the way the world deals with China, and the Olympics can provide an opportunity for the world to let China know we won't let brutal, oppressive and belligerent regimes do as they wish without consequence.

10) Finally, the athletes,. It does seem very unfair that Soccer players, tennis players, motor racing drivers are able to pursue their lucrative jobs unaffected by boycotts, buit the little guys like archers, rowers, judo players etc for whom the Olympics is their only taste of the big time lose out.
Boycotts hurt the little guys in sport and leave the rich unaffected.

Did you look at the images I posted a link to on Google in an earlier post? One of them is of a man being executed by a red guard by throttling - with his bare hands. This isn't about sport - in my opinion the decision to award China the olympics with preconditions was outrageous and these athletes have been let down by the IOC, to suggest people advocating a boycott are spoiling people's fun should have a long hard look at those images, and then see if they can't gain a bit of perspective. As for affecting the little guys and leaving the rich unaffected, that's capitalism for you.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:01 AM

Stigweard.

Your argument basically boils down to "we've tried everything else so a boycott must be a good idea".
You brought in the civil rights movement but may I point out, Tommie Smith and John Carlos protested at the Games but did not boycott them.
Your argument effectively said "you must either support a boycott or you don't care about human rights" - like either you support the invasion of Iraq or you support Saddam Hussain.

You have also implied that not supporting a boycott means we can't condemn China - another "he who is not with me is against me argument".
Your argument is full of logical fallacies.

You brought in Hitler - the last refuge of the desperate.

You also stated that shutting off China from the outside world would be counterproductive - so you admit some actions against China would be counterproductive? In my view an Olympic boycott would be counterproductive. We are both against counterproductive actions against China - so there isn't much difference between us.

Therefore I believe you should apologise for implying that I don't care about human rights, I merely take the opposite position from you on a single issue.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:03 AM

Don't argue with the troll.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:32 AM

"Don't argue with the troll".

Great standard of debate here. Raise reasonable points which disagree with the "consensus" and you get that.

Note: "Olympic Dream for Darfur" does not advocate a boycott. Do they not care about human rights either?

Support the Olympic movement - no to the boycotters!

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:49 AM

"Your argument basically boils down to "we've tried everything else so a boycott must be a good idea".

Perhaps you need to re-read what I've written and take some time to digest my arguments fully before coming out with this bilge. I'm arguing in favour of a boycott, not suggesting it's the only way to make the Chinese leadership come to their senses.

"You brought in Hitler - the last refuge of the desperate."

Is this a joke? How about the 6 million innocents who died because of this maniac - you think it's desperate to invoke the spectre of the Holocaust in an attempt to stop it happening again? Tell me why remembering this abomination is wrong. Watch Shoah. Look at the faces opf the people as they tell their stories - stories in our cosy closeted world we struggle to understand, so unimaginable is the horror these people experienced - it's within living memory. There are plenty in Tibet and China who will readily identify with them though even if it's beyond the wit of many in the rest of the world.

"Therefore I believe you should apologise for implying that I don't care about human rights, I merely take the opposite position from you on a single issue."

Apologise for some perceived slur? I think not. I'm implying that ignoring these issues is tantamount to complicity in the systematic oppression of an entire nation - this isn't a personal jibe at you - it's an observation of our collective responsibility as a society.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:51 AM

"Great standard of debate here. Raise reasonable points which disagree with the "consensus" and you get that."

YOU get that because you don't have the decency to post under your regular name. It's that simple.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 12:27 PM

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 12:48 PM

Speak up!

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 12:56 PM

It wasn't working!

When you get short of an argument you throw in stuff about torture and human rights. That should not be used in place of rational argument. You are trying to browbeat me by talking about torture, Tibet, Darfur and probably the fall of Carthage.
I know that's going on but I'm trying to debate whether a boycott is a good idea.

You did try to imply that I was not concerned about human rights because I didn't support a boycott. However, I don't expect to get one.

Will you promise to use rational discussion instead of using pictures of abuse to browbeat people into accepting your logic?

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 01:53 PM

Go and read the first post of this thread and then come back here.

Read it? Got it?

"When you get short of an argument you throw in stuff about torture and human rights."

This is the argument.

The very point of me starting this discussion was the brutality of the Chinese regime and the possiblity of the rest of the world rising out of the moral abyss it's leaders have steered us into and start putting things right. If we don't with China, if we can't see beyond our greed and fear, then any semblance of moral integrity will truly have vanished from modern political and economic life.

"Will you promise to use rational discussion instead of using pictures of abuse to browbeat people into accepting your logic?"

Don't like the pictures? Neither do I, and I thought long and hard about posting that link. These aren't an attempt to browbeat you or anyone else - they and the sites they link to are illustrating the systematic abuse of human beings in a country we freely trade with and are about to hold the single most important sporting event humankind has been able to come up with.

I've replied individually to all the points you've raised in your earlier post - not one of these have you countered with a reply addressing the argument. Complaining about the central tenet of the thread is not a rational debating tactic.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 02:15 PM

"In preparing for the Olympics showcase, China has evicted by force more than 1 million residents of Beijing, destroying the homes of more than 350,000 families to make the city more attractive."

From the LATimes

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 05:45 PM

I don't object to you using the pictures per se. However, you used them as a means of moral blackmail as if to say "There you are, that proves we should boycott the Olympics". It is this I object to.

Given that you have stated that "shutting off China from the outside world" would be counterproductive why can you not respectr my position that an Olympic boycott would be counterproductive?

Rather than admit that we have a slight difference of opinion, you have to present me as an apologist for tyranny and then through a few links to atrocities to bolster your argument.

No to Communism! No to Olympic boycotts!

---

"The world can show China that brutal opressive belligerent regimes can't do as they wish without consequence".
What consequence? A few athletes don't turn up to China's Olympic party?

Not like a nuclear missile hitting Beijing is it? If that's all we've got then the Communists will be in power for a very long time.

It won't hurt China one iota, but the Chinese Communist Party will remember the slight against them and people will pay.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 06:07 PM

So let the Chinese Communist Party remember.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 09:15 PM

Remember this maybe:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 09:23 PM

CHINA
(Words and Music by Joan Baez)

In the month of May, in the glory of the day
Came the descendants of a hundred flowers
And their fight it did begin with the aging Mandarin
And they fought with an extraordinary power
Everyone was smiling, their hearts were one
In Tiananmen Square

But it seems that the Spring this year in Beijing
Came just before the Fall
There was no summer at all
In Tiananmen Square
China... China

There's peace in the emerald fields, there's mist upon the lakes
But something is afoot in the People's Hall
The spirit of Chu Ping is alive in young Chai Ling
And the Emperor has his back against the wall
Black sun rising over Tiananmen Square
Over Tiananmen Square

But it seems that the Spring this year in Beijing
Came just before the Fall
There was no summer at all
In Tiananmen Square
China... China

In the month of June, in the darkness of the moon
Went the descendants of a hundred flowers
And time may never tell how many of them fell
Like the petals of a rose in some satanic shower
Everyone was weeping in all of China
And Tiananmen Square

But it seems that the Spring this year in Beijing
Came just before the Fall
There was no summer at all
In Tiananmen Square
China... China

And even the moon on the fourth day of June
Hid her face and did not see
Black sun rising over Tiananmen Square

And Wang Wei Lin, you remember him
All alone he stood before the tanks
A shadow of forgotten ancestors in Tiananmen Square

And my blue-eyed son, you had no one
You could call a hero of your age
You have the rainbow warriors of Tiananmen Square, singing
China Shall Be Free
China Shall Be Free
China Shall Be Free

© 1989 Gabriel Earl Music (ASCAP)

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 09:33 PM

I wonder if the Communist Party ever heard it. And if so, do they remember?

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 04:38 AM

"I don't object to you using the pictures per se. However, you used them as a means of moral blackmail as if to say "There you are, that proves we should boycott the Olympics". It is this I object to."

Best not put words into my mouth - how can you 'prove' we must boycott the olympics? We certainly do have a difference of opinion on this subject. Moral blackmail? Moral integrity is all I'm interested in, I'm not blackmailing you but I am trying to debate with you and I will support my argument as I see fit. But, back to the original discussion . .

Communisim exists only in name in China. It has become a consumer society, with an increrasingly free market economy and the system bears no relation to the ideals it purports to represent. This is not Communism as defined my Marx and Engels, which is concerened with the establishment of a society based on equality and communal effort for the greater good without profit and for the benefit of everyone within that society. So forget Communism in China - it simply doesn't exist in any meaningful form.

Boycotting the Olympics would not be counterproductive because it will be a way of highlighting to the world the brutalities of the Chinese regime. The world will focus on the olympics and if the major players don't go every time a race is held with them in there will be a reminder of the atrocities China continues to commit.

As Peace says, with an Olympic boycott in place The Chinese leadership will certainly be reminded the world is still watching and hasn't forgotten their outrages - a fact they need to remember.

Even as I sit here typing this news China is demand Bush cancels a meeting with HH The Dalai Lama. If Bush were to cancel (which I deeply hope he won't) this meeting then consider the last vestiges of hope for Tibet gone. I suspect hope for Tibet is gone actually - we've all sat on our hands to long for there to be a happy ending for the people of that country.

Tashi Delek

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 04:43 AM

The modern Olympics have been hijacked by countries. The original intention was to have a bunch of individuals from all over the world competing against each other. This national flag waving thing is unhealthy and stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 06:36 AM

The Olympics are not really all that nationalistic.
Nationalism is far more significant at football/rugby world cups.

The games are INTERNATIONAL.

Support the Beijing Olympics!

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 09:19 AM

Nope!

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 11:30 AM

Support the Beijing Olympics!

. . .unlike this lot who are ruining the whole thing by talking about the mass relocation of Tibetans, or even this chap who has the nerve to pipe up about the brutal suppression of those pesky Falun Gong nutters (anyone for a kidney?).

Don't let them spoil our viewing of this wonderful spectacle - the pinnacle of human sporting endeavour (especially amongst onanistic westerners).

Support the Beijing Olympics!

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 11:31 AM

Support nuts. Wear a cup!

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 02:01 PM

Some Aussie guy says something and that's proof is it?
You then throw in something about human rights for want of an argument.

How many times must I say this?

LINKS TO ATROCITIES ETC MERELY SHOW THAT CHINA IS A COUNTRY THAT VIOLATES HUMAN RIGHTS IT ISN'T A CLINCHING ARGUMENT FOR A BOYCOTT.

Please give a reasoned argument for once as to why we should boycott the Games in your own words, without quoting or linking to another website and without implying that any deviation from your position is to be pro-China.

Can you do that?

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 02:11 PM

Web dissent on the rise in China
By Michael Bristow
BBC News, Beijing


Zeng Jinyan does not look like a dissident. She is small, heavily pregnant and has a liking for colourful dresses.

Zeng Jinyan came to prominence after her husband was detained

But the Chinese security operatives who permanently watch the apartment she shares with her husband are an indicator of just how influential she has become.

The 24-year-old uses the internet to pass on information to the outside world about protests, injustices and underground campaigns in China.

She is just one of tens of thousands of ordinary Chinese people who are now using the internet to express themselves in ways that were previously impossible.

The article.