BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 06:34 AM

The Dalai Lama opposes a boycott.

A mouthpiece of Beijing - the bastard.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 12:28 PM

"China has not attacked other countries and has pursued the enlightened policy of non-intervention in other countries' affairs."

OK - this is a wind-up. You poor sad tit.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 01:07 PM

Korea is not at peace until North Korea signs a peace treaty. If you've been following the news, there have been discussions about this specific issue, with South Korea taking the lead in pursuing a peace pact.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 05:33 AM

No, I'm not Chinese, I'm from England.

I seen tyo remember several countries intervening in Korea. Anyway the war was over 50 years ago. It's what's happening now that matters.

I think it's more important at this stage for China to develop its economy than to bring in democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 09:19 PM

"The Chinese Government has raised 400m people out of poverty with its policies - that's 400m who have had their human rights improved.

China has not attacked other countries and has pursued the enlightened policy of non-intervention in other countries' affairs.

They also do not want to make political capital out of the Olympics - just showcase the best that China has to offer.
Surely it would be an honour to compete against such enlightened people? GUEST,sinless69uk - PM"


Try telling the South Koreans about the non interfering Chi-Coms. In the Korean War it was Chinese troops that gave the North Koreans the backbone to fight. They interfered in every dispute in the far East for nearly half a century.

Tell me, are you by any chance Chinese?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 05:11 PM

A friend mentioned today that they also do a lot of business with Myanmar.
Do we see a trend here?

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 11:12 PM

They are certainly doing their best to slow intervention in Darfur and other countries where they do business.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 05:05 PM

"China has not attacked other countries and has pursued the enlightened policy of non-intervention in other countries' affairs."

I'm sure that the good people of Tibet are overjoyed to get this news. Does that mean that they are now free of their oppressors?

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 12:01 PM

With deepest respect, well said, Stigweard.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 11:23 AM

"It's easy to sit on your backside and preach"

I have recently refused a lucrative business offer to broker goods from a supplier who sources from China. Financing in place, logistics fully in place, factories ready to visit and people on the ground over there - the full set up, the works. I could have made a pile of cash from this but in the end have declined as I will not put money in the pocket of a brutal regime. I do wonder whether I've made a mistake as we are struggling at the moment and this was an opportunity that was difficult to resist, but in the end I had to go with my gut feeling. I want to sleep at night.

Several years ago I looked into Tibetan Buddhism for a period of time, attending classes and receiving teachings from western monks. This led to a wider interest in Tibet in general (Tibetan Buddhism is incorporates elements of the indigenous Bo religion of the region, which is one of the reasons it is so distinct), we went to see HH Dalai Lama talk, went to meetings with dissident monks who were returning to Tibet and most touching of all, a talk with HH's sister Jetsun Pema. Pema was part of a delegation sent back to Tibet to assess the state of the country (it took years before the Chinese let the delegation in). Her account, heard first hand of what she found and the oppression these gentle, people are suffering was one of the most moving things I have ever heard in my life. Talking to her afterwards, I was struck by her humility and her lack of hatred towards the Chinese - all these people want is to be able to live their own lives without interference and intimidation. They are not even asking for independence any more - simply to choose their own leader in Tibet.

Who am I asking to sacrifice their dreams? That's a matter for individual conscience, but to make an informed decision you need to be in full possession of the facts, and people can't be arsed to look those facts up anymore for fear of finding things they don't like - just look back at the posts in this thread. I don't understand how you can just ignore this for the sake of an easy life.

"Your standard of living would drop dramatically if those goods had to be obtained from elsewhere."

Not really - someone else would make them. We used to make them fifty years ago. Capitalism doesn't give a shit where stuff comes from - that would be the strength of an economic boycott, and an Olympic one - it would hit them in the pocket.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 10:58 AM

There is also a grain of rice in China. It's finding that specific grain . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 10:49 AM

The Chinese Government has raised 400m people out of poverty with its policies - that's 400m who have had their human rights improved.

China has not attacked other countries and has pursued the enlightened policy of non-intervention in other countries' affairs.

They also do not want to make political capital out of the Olympics - just showcase the best that China has to offer.
Surely it would be an honour to compete against such enlightened people?

OK, that's going over that top but there is a grain of truth in what I'm saying.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 10:36 AM

Nearly everybody in the West is benefitting from cheap goods, parts etc from China. Your standard of living would drop dramatically if those goods had to be obtained from elsewhere. Don't ask others to sacrifice there dreams - and years of training! It's easy to sit on your backside and preach. Your first step should be to get out there and lobby for a trade ban with China.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 09:59 AM

Strange how Mao is venerated as some sort of great reformist, when in fact he had more in common with Hitler and Stalin than Marx and Engels, or even Lenin. Of course this is largely due to propaganda, but even so you sense he's regarded as a great leader in the world at large.

Mind you, you can't deny his influence on the 20th Century was profound and he shaped modern China, although the current leaders are his disciples only in name, rather than action.

These figures show exactly http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Mao The fact is the system that caused these deaths is still very much in place, and working efficiently.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 09:57 AM

Mao may have said that. He was quite busy screwing prepubescent girls.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 09:42 AM

Read "The World is Flat," by Thomas Friedman. He makes a fairly persuasive case that, if we were to stop buying Chinese, others would fill the gap. The only answer is to work at making the Chinese Proletariat unhappy with the current regime. Wasn't it Mao who said that "Power comes from the end of a gun?"

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: bankley
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 08:18 AM

Then again, consider the ensuing health benefits.... after the 2008 Games there will be a surplus of young, high quality organs available for transplants... 'donated' by many of the Chinese athletes would didn't win medals.....

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 07:17 AM

I will watch the Olympics 12 hrs per day.

Love that sport!

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 03:59 AM

Ulitimately it's what I'll do. I'm not sure what drove the IOC to give the games to China - I'll have a dig around and see if I can come up with anything. I suspect someone got their palms greased somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 12:57 AM

For too long the Olympics have been tainted by corrupt selection committees accused of taking bribes and athletes taking dope. They are driven by $$$ and have long ago lost any sense of purpose.
That being said they could aspire to a higher level by taking a stand about human rights in China, but it won't happen. Greed and money continue to rule!
We can all boycott the games by switching off the TV and refusing to buy products from game sponsors.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: bankley
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 04:36 PM

Adolf wouldn't shake hands with Jesse...., neither would Jim Crow

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 04:07 PM

BUT, BUT, BUT !!!! What are the Berlin Games best remembered for? Jesse Owens showing/proving that Hitler's Ayrian superioty beliefs were stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: bankley
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 01:45 PM

"Neither Americans nor the representatives of other countries can take part in the Games in Nazi Germany without, at least, acquiescing in the contempt of the Nazis for fairplay and their sordid exploitation of the Games"... Ernest Lee Janche, American member of the IOC who took a strong public stand against the Berlin Games and was subsequently expelled from the IOC in 1936 and replaced by Avery Brundage. Mr. Janche is the only member in the 100 history of the IOC to be expelled....

so host countries and names change but bullshit still smells the same

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 01:45 PM

Who wants to join me in Beijing as part of the honorary Tibitan Team?

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 01:12 PM

"Actually, on a non-confrontational note it's hard to see USA and Britain boycotting."

On that we do agree - in all honesty there's little or no chance of a boycott unless the Taiwan situation escalates beyond all control and this is not beyond the bounds of possibility as Taiwan will be holding a referendum regardin Tiawan's entry to the UN (a step widely seen as the precursor to a declaration if independence), a move which will anger China and fears are this could provoke the PRC into military confrontation, as China has said it will retake the island by force if it attempt to secede from the Republic.

Still, the world seeks to placate China instead of deal head-on with the problems it is creating worldwide (try googling for Chinese construction projects in Africa -not good news again), a case of everyone burying their heads in the sand. Which is fine, but it leaves their arses sticking up in the air inviting a mighty big kick from you-know-who.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 12:35 PM

What did the boycott of Moscow achieve? Nothing positive - is the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 11:41 AM

I can't see Canada boycotting, either, sinless. No balls to speak of in Ottawa.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 11:35 AM

Actually, on a non-confrontational note it's hard to see USA and Britain boycotting.

Bush is keen to stay on good terms with China to help him deal with N. Korea and Iran.

Burma/Tibet are not real issues in Britain - the Right sees the European Union as the greatest source of evil and the Left feels the same about America. China doesn't really feature on their radar.

Plus GB has London 2012 coming up and US has a Chicago bid for 2016.

I'm not sure how many countries would actually support this idea.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 11:25 AM

That aside, I agree with whoever said that a boycott of trade goods from China would wake 'em up a bit. But that doesn't take away the need for China to be publickly embarrassed on the world stage. Tell me, has anyone heard anymore about the poisoned dog and cat food that was shipped to the US and Canada? We owe them NOTHING.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 11:17 AM

I'm with you, buddy.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 11:11 AM

I'm thinking we're being wound up by these two GUESTs Peace - who in their right mind would put sport and cash before basic human rights?

Throw them pebbles!

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 10:10 AM

That's all nice rhetoric. But it's wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 08:42 AM

If you want to hurt the Chinese, stop buying anything made there! Don't ask athletes to sacrifice their dreams. And, of course, a worldwide ban of goods made in/from China would hit them where it really hurts! BUT, it would hit the West too, as prices would rise.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 08:31 AM

"Those who don't know don't care."

Educate, educate, educate. It's imperative these issues are kept in the awareness of the world citizenry, and in the 21st Century that means using the media, which means generating publicity, which means using events which are widely watched. You can't make everyone care that's true, but I'm all for throwing my pebble at the wall. If enough people throw pebbles, down the wall will come.

"Juxtaposing trivial pleasures with China's brutality shows that stopping (other people's) pleasure is essential to your campaign."

I'm not attacking the games (they should never have been awarded to China in the first place) I'm not some miserly killjoy out to poo-poo people's fun. I personally enjoy the games and want to see these athletes competeing, but not at the expense of the millions of innocent people. Do yourself an favour and do some googling on how the Chinese leadership have approached the building of the stadia required for the competitions - forced movement of entire communities. Is that a price worth paying for entertainment? Would you pay it? Your family?

Beach vollyball sums up what a load of crap the modern olympics will become if we keep letting marketing men run it - a triumph of presentation over content. If they were all wearing long dresses I would understand, but I suppose attracting grasshopper minds is the main aim these days.

What are the alternatives then? Accept the oppression of these people, the destruction of Tibet and the struggle of ordinary Chinese people for freedom as a hopeless cause and walk away? Try to make a fast buck in China whilst the going's good?

"Boycotting the Olympics will move us closer to as new Cold War. Is that what you really want?"

Never - there's far many pockets to be lined and fortunes to be made in China for any serious disagreements to ecalte to a new cold war. Did you read the press reports of HH The Dalai Lama's meeting with Bush? The Chinese will whinge on a bit, but they know the world thinks they're in the wrong and largely ignores the issue. The Taiwanese desire for independence is far more likely to spark a confrontation than an Olympic boycott - and that may happen sooner that you think.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 06:05 AM

The boycott of Moscow was a failure.

"Boycotting the Olympics would highlight the brutalities of the Chinese regime".

Anyone who knows about international politics knows that already. Those who don't know don't care. Their grasshopper minds will move on to American Idol or the latest dancing show.

Boycotting the Olympics will move us closer to as new Cold War. Is that what you really want?

The link to the beach volleyball showed what you really think. Juxtaposing trivial pleasures with China's brutality shows that stopping (other people's) pleasure is essential to your campaign.
If people didn't enjoy the Gamed you wouldn't be half as keen to atack them.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,stigweard on the road
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 04:50 AM

"will that mean that half the world will boycott those games because of Britain's involvement in Iraq?"

Legitimate protest is to be tolerated whether you agree with it or not. Given the circumstances we went to war with Iraq, the use of cluster munitions and the large number of civilian deaths cause, let before we even start on the human rights at Abu Ghraib etc, perhaps a boycott of London isn't such an unreasonable idea from an Arab point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 03:20 AM

Boycotting the Olympics would be stupid! If Chinese athletes are allowed to compete in international athletic events, then China should be allowed to host the Olympics. The boycott in 1980 lead to the counter boycott in 1984 ( which took a lot of the shine of the Los Angeles games). London is hosting the 2012 games, will that mean that half the world will boycott those games because of Britain's involvement in Iraq?

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 10:32 AM

I suppose at least Bush did meet with HH The Dalai Lama, even if his prime motivation was to piss the Chinese off during their five-yearly party conference and make it look he was doing more that he is to help the Tibetans.

It would be remarkable if he suddenly got a pang of conscience somewhere in the recesses of his wart for a brain and woke up to the fact we're all going to be speaking Mandarin in a few years time and now might be a good time to stand up for the oppressed millions in China before we join them.

Tiawan - now there's another problem . . .

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 09:23 AM

Face it, Bush and company are not likely to boycott the Olympics over a moral issue. Now, if the athletes refused to play at the last minute [after arriving at Beijing]and announced that it was due to Chinese human rights policies, that might get some attention. It would also make it more difficult to field a team of scabs.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 06:01 AM

sinless69uk, you really need to read the posts I am making. Here, copied from a post I wrote earlier which you can't have read is, in my own words, my reason for boycotting the olympics:

Boycotting the Olympics would not be counterproductive because it will be a way of highlighting to the world the brutalities of the Chinese regime. The world will focus on the olympics and if the major players don't go every time a race is held with them in there will be a reminder of the atrocities China continues to commit.

"LINKS TO ATROCITIES ETC MERELY SHOW THAT CHINA IS A COUNTRY THAT VIOLATES HUMAN RIGHTS IT ISN'T A CLINCHING ARGUMENT FOR A BOYCOTT."

No need to shout - I believe China's violation of human rights is justification for a boycott. Why not use the publicity generated to highlight these problems.

"We should boycott the China Olympics because when be boycotted the Moscow Olympics for nobody remembers what reason, it didn't work very well. Maybe if we boycott another Olympics, our boycott will work better this time and maybe people will remember why we're boycotting."

It worked at the time - the olympics didn't have some of the top sportsmen present, and the boycott certainly did highlight the world's opposition to the invasion of Afghanistan.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 02:22 PM

We should boycott the China Olympics because when be boycotted the Moscow Olympics for nobody remembers what reason, it didn't work very well. Maybe if we boycott another Olympics, our boycott will work better this time and maybe people will remember why we're boycotting.
Or not.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 02:11 PM

Web dissent on the rise in China
By Michael Bristow
BBC News, Beijing


Zeng Jinyan does not look like a dissident. She is small, heavily pregnant and has a liking for colourful dresses.

Zeng Jinyan came to prominence after her husband was detained

But the Chinese security operatives who permanently watch the apartment she shares with her husband are an indicator of just how influential she has become.

The 24-year-old uses the internet to pass on information to the outside world about protests, injustices and underground campaigns in China.

She is just one of tens of thousands of ordinary Chinese people who are now using the internet to express themselves in ways that were previously impossible.

The article.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 02:01 PM

Some Aussie guy says something and that's proof is it?
You then throw in something about human rights for want of an argument.

How many times must I say this?

LINKS TO ATROCITIES ETC MERELY SHOW THAT CHINA IS A COUNTRY THAT VIOLATES HUMAN RIGHTS IT ISN'T A CLINCHING ARGUMENT FOR A BOYCOTT.

Please give a reasoned argument for once as to why we should boycott the Games in your own words, without quoting or linking to another website and without implying that any deviation from your position is to be pro-China.

Can you do that?

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 11:31 AM

Support nuts. Wear a cup!

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 11:30 AM

Support the Beijing Olympics!

. . .unlike this lot who are ruining the whole thing by talking about the mass relocation of Tibetans, or even this chap who has the nerve to pipe up about the brutal suppression of those pesky Falun Gong nutters (anyone for a kidney?).

Don't let them spoil our viewing of this wonderful spectacle - the pinnacle of human sporting endeavour (especially amongst onanistic westerners).

Support the Beijing Olympics!

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 09:19 AM

Nope!

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 06:36 AM

The Olympics are not really all that nationalistic.
Nationalism is far more significant at football/rugby world cups.

The games are INTERNATIONAL.

Support the Beijing Olympics!

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 04:43 AM

The modern Olympics have been hijacked by countries. The original intention was to have a bunch of individuals from all over the world competing against each other. This national flag waving thing is unhealthy and stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 04:38 AM

"I don't object to you using the pictures per se. However, you used them as a means of moral blackmail as if to say "There you are, that proves we should boycott the Olympics". It is this I object to."

Best not put words into my mouth - how can you 'prove' we must boycott the olympics? We certainly do have a difference of opinion on this subject. Moral blackmail? Moral integrity is all I'm interested in, I'm not blackmailing you but I am trying to debate with you and I will support my argument as I see fit. But, back to the original discussion . .

Communisim exists only in name in China. It has become a consumer society, with an increrasingly free market economy and the system bears no relation to the ideals it purports to represent. This is not Communism as defined my Marx and Engels, which is concerened with the establishment of a society based on equality and communal effort for the greater good without profit and for the benefit of everyone within that society. So forget Communism in China - it simply doesn't exist in any meaningful form.

Boycotting the Olympics would not be counterproductive because it will be a way of highlighting to the world the brutalities of the Chinese regime. The world will focus on the olympics and if the major players don't go every time a race is held with them in there will be a reminder of the atrocities China continues to commit.

As Peace says, with an Olympic boycott in place The Chinese leadership will certainly be reminded the world is still watching and hasn't forgotten their outrages - a fact they need to remember.

Even as I sit here typing this news China is demand Bush cancels a meeting with HH The Dalai Lama. If Bush were to cancel (which I deeply hope he won't) this meeting then consider the last vestiges of hope for Tibet gone. I suspect hope for Tibet is gone actually - we've all sat on our hands to long for there to be a happy ending for the people of that country.

Tashi Delek

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 09:33 PM

I wonder if the Communist Party ever heard it. And if so, do they remember?