Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Fidjit
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 12:37 PM

Ok. Richard and co. Whats on your cv's?

What do you define yoursevles as??

Source singer? Trad singer? Revivalist?

Oh S**t this will probably bring out birdseye and co.

Chas

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 12:39 PM

Uh...make that KNOW. And let this be a lesson to all of you to never write posts here on Sunday mornings before your 2nd cup of coffee. Anybody remember Muddy Water's "Folksinger" album? Released under that title because the Record Exec's(remember Record Exec's?) felt that it would boost sales because they were releasing it during the Folk Boom!
You should be sending a bottle of Champagne to the Guardian along with a big Thank You note. This will kick open a door to an audience who otherwise would never know you existed. If the kids hear Ani with Utah, you can bet your booties some of 'em will check some of YOU out. This is a GOOD thing. "Great Gosh Amighty, I be searching for a rescue." (Little Richard)

Praise the Lord, and pass the ammunition...
bob

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Fidjit
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 01:53 PM

Haven't managed to hear the lady. Anyone know of a site that has some music/song ?

This from Wykopedia

Chas

[edit] Musical style and the "folk" label
DiFranco's guitar playing is often characterized by a signature staccato style,[5][6] rapid fingerpicking and use of a plethora of alternate tunings. She delivers many of her lines in a speaking style notable for its rhythmic variation. Her lyrics, which often include alliteration, metaphor, word play and a more or less gentle irony, have also received praise for their sophistication. The song "Talkin' Mrs. DiFranco Blues," by Dan Bern, strings together some of the moar memorable lines from DiFranco's early career for comic effects.

Although DiFranco's music has been classified as both folk rock and alternative rock, she has reached across genres since her earliest albums. DiFranco has collaborated with a wide range of artists including pop musician Prince, folk musician Utah Phillips, funk and soul jazz musician Maceo Parker and rapper Corey Parker. She has used a variety of instruments and styles: brass instrumentation was prevalent in 1998's Little Plastic Castle, a simple walking bass in her 1997 cover of Hal David and Burt Bacharach's Wishin' and Hopin', strings on the 1997 live album Living in Clip and 2004's Knuckle Down, and electronics and synthesisers in 1999's To the Teeth and DiFranco's latest studio recording, Reprieve.

DiFranco herself noted that "folk music is not an acoustic guitar — that's not where the heart of it is. I use the word 'folk' in reference to punk music and rap music. It's an attitude, it's an awareness of one's heritage, and it's a community. It's subcorporate music that gives voice to different communities and their struggle against authority."[7]


Chas

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 03:50 PM

It's lots like ice cream. Few flavours we don't like and lots we do. But that too has gone from having chocolate, vanilla and strawberry to having a menu that takes a while to read let alone choose from. Some days I gotta have pistachio, but if they're out I don't drive to another town. Maple walnut will do in a pinch.

But did you ever notice that some ice creams just getcha and ya gotta have that or that's it, ya have a peanut butter and jam sandwich instead? Yeah. Thought so.

I don't know why the heck I wrote that. But I will say this: right now peach would hit the spot.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 03:55 PM

PEACH flavour from YOUTUBE.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: michaelr
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 04:32 PM

Do none of you understand the difference between "folksinger" on the one hand and "folksong-singer" on the other?

Well, I sure don't. The whole premise of this thread seems silly to me.

June Tabor has recorded a slew of Child ballads and other traditional materisal. She also recorded contemporary songs by everyone from Richard Thompson to Elvis Costello. Many of her CDs feature keyboard and horns-based arrangements, with nary an acoustic guitar in sight. Would anyone suggest that June is not a folk singer?

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Declan
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 04:43 PM

Another example of a fairly ridiculous opening post leading to an interesting thread.

I have no idea what the news item about Ani was about, but given an assumption that the description of Ani as a folksinger is likely to have been a background detail to the story rather than being germaine to the main story, I think the reporter may be forgiven for not researching the 1954 definition before deciding whether she was a folk-singer, a folksong singer, or just a singer in a slightly folkie style.

And Michael, I'll let Richard speak for himself, but I don't think he would regard June Tabor as a folksinger by his definition. Which is an example of why the definition, in my opinion, is out of date.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Fidjit
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 05:36 PM

Ah just heard the lady and I'm

Hypnotized


Chas

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 06:16 PM

Yep. Just heard "Hypnotized." Ani DiFranco is a Folksinger...

Doesn't this whole thing remind you of the blind men who find an elephant and are asked to describe what it is? One thinks it's like a snake cause he's holding the tail, another thinks it's like a tree, because he's holding a leg...etc. Betcha if you put the girl in front of a RAWKIN" band with a wall of Marshalls, dressed her in lycra and she sang the same song she'd be a Rock Star. Take the guitar away, speak the same song and she's a Poet. Maybe she can do some magic tricks too and that makes her David Blaine.
Ani: If you get to see this, you know how we live in a Googlin' world, nice song, good lyrical twists. You GO girl...
bob

p.s. Thanks Fidgit/Chas

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Grab
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 08:01 PM

Of course folk music adapts, that is what makes it folk music. The question at issue here seems to be whether it has adapted into Ani DiFranco, or not.

Not according to Richard. Richard's argument in his "1954 definition" is that ADF can't be a folksinger, not because of her material or her style of writing, but because of the way she learnt her material. If what she sings is folk (and that is a separate question) then he insists we, and the Guardian, should call her a "folksong-singer".

Finches evolve, and presumably in time could evolve into elephants. But they are not famous for it so far.

Gotta be line of the month there. :-)

But if we keep the animal analogy, you certainly don't see many elephant-like finches, but penguins have evolved to behave rather like dolphins, which are mammals evolved to behave rather like fish... That's why I think fighting the "this is folk, and that isn't" battle is pointless. Hence "folk-rock" or whatever tags to give a better description of the parents that spawned it or the niche it's filling, and to differentiate it from "traditional folk".

Graham.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Beer
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 09:00 PM

I'm with you on this Bob Ry., I've been booking singer/song writers for the past five years at our Folk Festival and I have selected a few that would be a bit questionable in what I regard as folk . But hay!, I don't book to only please myself. Ani I would book without hesitation even thought I'm not nuts about her music. But as I said, it's not only about what I like, it's about what I think the audience would.
And Ani would go over very well. Maybe not with the older generation, but with the younger ones I think she would be a hit.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 10:15 PM

Hi Kids: Just got back from YouTube where I find Jesse Winchester(who used to call me "The Silver Fox!" HA Ha Hee Hee Hee, Luv ya Jess..) Anyhound, Jesse's being interviewed, and is asked, "People call you a Folksinger. At least that's how you are categorized in the record shops(para.) What do you think of that?" So Jesse replies as he looks at his acoustic/classical, " Well, I guess that comes from playing the acoustic guitar, so I get called a Folksinger. I don't like it." Interviewer asks, "Well, how would you describe your music?" Jesse replies," Country, mixed with Rhythm and Blues. Pop." He does "Biloxi" in the same segment...
Tex Koenig(Bless) used to tell me about stuff he heard. One group, "The New Tradition" played Folk songs, sea shanties, etc. A real love there in wanting to keep that whole thing alive. All this gets swirled around. It's really about the music. Not about categories. I'll leave that to the "Categoristas".
I went for a walk this afternoon thinking about all of this and asking myself, "If Woody Guthrie were here today, would he be a "Folksinger?" Maybe his "dustbowl" would be Iraq, and his "do-re-me" would be a credit card. Maybe he'd be a black kid playing beats on plastic buckets outside a subway station like his life depended on it. Or some tatooed 20-something with piercings singing what she considers "traditional" Green Day!
Or what if Celine Dion picks up an acoustic guitar and sings "Michael Rowed the Boat Ashore" in one of those computer generated digital things with Luciano Pavarotti, Man, they would be some Folksingers...
GOT TO TELL YOU THIS ONE: So my walk ends up in Lenscrafters where I ask the girl if they carry ROUND-lens glasses like John Lennon? She replies,"Who?" I reply, he was a singer in a group called The Beatles. They were pretty good...
Nite All...bob

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: C. Ham
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 10:24 PM

I saw Jesse Winchester perform a few months ago. He referred to himself several times as "a folksinger."

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Beer
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 10:32 PM

Hay Bob.
E-mail me (seeing as I can't p/m you.)at: [e-mail]
Want to talk to you about Jessie.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 10:35 PM

And there you go... In the clip I saw he said he didn't like it. I guess one day you like black, the next it's white....
bob

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 11:56 PM

The first time Elvis Presley appeared on The Louisiana Hayride in 1954, the MC introduced him as a folk singer. So what? I have heard Gordon Lightfoot, Tennessee Ernie Ford, Paul Simon, and Jewel all described as folk singers at one time or another. The poet, journalist, and biographer Carl Sandburg used to call himself a folk singer, which I guess he was. Pete Seeger doesn't call himself a folk singer anymore, although I say he still is. Does it really matter? I'm with Ron Olesko all the way on this one. I doubt that Ani gives a rat's hiney one way or the other.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: michaelr
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 11:57 PM

Yeah, Declan, exactly. Out of date by 50 years. Some folks adapt, some ossify. Richard, you choose.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 03:02 AM

Okay then, you lot who put up the last dozen or so posts. You've all agreed amongst yourselves that Richard's 1954 definition is wrong. So how would you define what is and isn't a folksinger? Or are you saying it's anyone who wants to call themselves one or get called one by someone else?

You see, I more or less know what a traditional singer/ singer of traditional songs is. I don't know what a folksinger is though, beyond the definition 'people whose music I like'...

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 04:29 AM

The 54 definition was an attempt to describe 1) the process of mainly oral transmission, 2) the individuals who were part of that process, and 3) the material created/adapted within that process by those people.

It referred to the pre-collection, pre-recording, pre-mass media, mainly-orally-transmitted, locally-adapted, workplace/tribally-rooted 'traditional' music, aka The Tradition, (though for the purposes of this debate I'm going to give it a new and unique name The Wellspring).

They felt it was necessary to separate out The Wellspring from the rest of 'popular' music because, already in 54, the territory was becoming muddied by the advent of radio, records and the media, and the activities of collectors over the past half-century.

They used the word Folk because at that point it was still universally understood and appropriate.

But since then the meaning of the word Folk has changed. It has now become - to the vast majority - an umbrella term used to describe many genres and styles of music - including The Wellspring, but also much much more.

The problem is that a few individuals feel that this change somehow threatens The Wellspring. They want to word Folk only to point us towards to The Wellspring. For them Folksinger ONLY means a singer from and within the Wellspring - i.e. someone from before the revival or magically isolated from it by some accident of history (or perhaps mere cussedness)!

I can see why they want to do this, because we all want and need a unique word to describe the Wellspring.

But in protesting that word Folk should still only point us at the Wellspring they seem to people who don't understand the problem to be implying that somehow all this new material is being bodged into The Wellspring, which is not happening, and cannot happen by definition.

I tried to explain above, but I don't think anyone got it. So here goes again.

The Wellspring is fundamentally different to anything that comes later, because of the way the songs were learned and passed on, against the way they are learned and passed on today.

May I try the analogy of species evolution?

When creatures exist in an evironmental niche, they adapt within it, they are informed by the niche, and the niche is informed by them - and so they evolve to become unique within that niche.

If you loose that niche, you loose a key principle of evolution, the 'rules of engagement' of competition change, and species may die out or change dramatically.

Thus, when the Wellspring was in action, traditional material was developing - or so the 54 definers would have it - in a plethora of separate socialogical niches. This separation was crucial. It meant that versions were developing within the context of a localised history and sociology.

It means that still, today, we can compare a version of a song sung by miners, with the same song as it has evolved in a fishing community, and learn much in the process.

(I should add that of course the whole concept of oral-only transmission is under scrutiny today - as it now seems that the oral process was never as simple as the 54 definers would have had it, but that's not the point here).

The bull point is this: Within The Wellspring, musical niches existed, and that separation was a crucial princliple of The Wellspring.

Then along comes Mr Marconi with his electrical kit. Suddenly the niches have gone. The miners can hear the fishermen's version on the wireless, the fishermen buy records with versions from farmers, sung by professional artists.

EVERYTHING changes.

The process which built The Wellspring has gone for ever. And from this point onwards we have to view traditional songs in a different light, and ask is this version from inside or outside the Wellspring?

There's nothing wrong with talking songs out of the Wellspring and doing modern versions, but we do need to know that's that is what has happened, and view them in that context.

NOW.

Richard (forgive me if I put words in your mouth, Richard), and others who make similar statements, seem to feel that using the word Folk to describe people, material and processes which are NOT from The Wellspring, somehow threatens and diminishes that archive and its value to us.

In protesting as Richard has done, they make a good point - but it's not the one they intend.

It's way too late to 'save' the word Folk. Those who want to re-refine (not re-define) its use are on a hiding to nothing.

But what they ARE doing is pointing out yet again that we do need a new, uniquivocal definition of, and term for The Wellspring, Wellspring singers and Wellspring songs.

If we had that, it would free up the word Folk and stop all this argument.

Folksinger would mean anyone who sang folk music, including Wellspring singers (who are now mostly all dead), and Folksingers who sing Wellspring songs, which is most of us.

So why didn't I choose the word Traditional instead of Wellspring?

Most of the Wellspring songs are, of course, Traditional - but not all.

More importantly we know that non-Wellspring songs can become - in many people's opinions - Traditional, because they see the process as continuing into the revival and on to the present day. Which it does, but WITHOUT THE NICHES. And that's the crucial difference that we all need to take on board.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 04:47 AM

The only trouble Tom, it isn't traditional.

Its not the tradition handed down to the generality of English people. It is an intellectual confection thought up to flatter glutinous taste for self absorption in the middle classes.

If y0u must call it anything - call it mid 20th century tradtional folk. Its an artistic movement which really got rolling around that time.

The English people have their sensibility and musical tastes intact and it doesn't run to modal scales, mazurkas, and medieval ballads. Someone somewhere is probably writing their folksongs, but he won't be as willfully obscure in style as the mid 2oth century traditional folk.

(d'you like the triple 'M' - just a little something I picked up off Neil Kinnoch!)

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Grab
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 08:55 AM

WLD, I think that's the point Tom was making. It's not traditional - but it's influenced by/inspired by/written in the style of traditional music.

For that matter, the music listened to by the "generality" of English people is more likely to be pop or rock. And plenty of people have learned Beatles songs from their parents singing them before they ever heard the recordings, making the "traditional" method of learning stuff even more dubious as a guide to folk-ness.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 09:17 AM

I like Genesis.

Rick Wakeman isn't bad.

I don't like X Factor though. There are much better sun creams around.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 09:50 AM

"The only trouble Tom, it isn't traditional."

You are right Wee - it isn't traditional, it's folk! Traditional is traditional!


"Its not the tradition handed down to the generality of English people. It is an intellectual confection thought up to flatter glutinous taste for self absorption in the middle classes."

I'd bet you a dollar to a donut hole that the stuff you consider "folk" or "traditional" would fit the same catagory. Middle class collectors during the last few centuries collected the songs that they felt represented the "generality" of the English (or whatever culture you choose) and selected songs that would fit THEIR image of the "people". They chose to ignore songs that did not fit their criteria - be it religious, political, or cultural reasons.

The songs that were handed down - even through the supposed "source" singers of the 20th century, were delivering an "art" that was meant to satisfy the artistic movement of the folk revival.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 09:58 AM

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Tom
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 10:09 AM

I'm trying to avoid the word Traditional right now, because there are three conflicting meanings:

Some people save it to describe ONLY The Wellspring itself, and nothing afterwards.

Others use it to decsrcibe the Wellspring PLUS anything that's influenced by, informed by, borrowed from, or sounds a bit like the Wellspring.

A third camp say it's anything associated with habitual use by a community (e.g. Boy Scouts, Football fans, etc - even if modern).

(And there the fourth, legal definition - in public ownership.

We have somehow to separate the meanings, and merely adding qualifiers (Source, Revivial, etc) doesn't seem to be enough.

NB

This is a _separate_ debate to the one above, over whether Folk = Traditional or not!

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: PeadarOfPortsmouth
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:18 AM

Tom (et.al.),

Thank you for taking the time to clarify this debate. As a newcomer, I didn't get my head around it the first time, but you've laid out the problem facing the community so even I can understand the crux of it now.

...if only I could offer a solution. Guess that's another puzzle I'll have to work on. ;-)

Peter

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:37 AM

Just discovered this very interesting thread. Frogprince's comment hit the nail on the head:

"Folk song/music. 1954 definition.
Folksinger.   A singer of folk songs who has learned them through the folk process.
Folksong-singer. A singer of folksongs who has learned them in any other way.

So what does that distinction actually mean, in practice? Doesn't it sorta imply that "folksinger" should be reserved, at least for the most part, for blind singers who don't read braille?"

As I get older I understand less and less why my way of learning songs - books, or other singers, or CDs, or old records - is any less 'folk process' than so-called 'traditional folk singers'. They learned their songs their way because that was what was available to them. In learning songs their way, they changed them a little (or a lot), as others had done before them. That's the folk process, surely? I - and others like me - learn my songs my modern way because modern methods are available to me. This is more national or even global than local, but this is the world I inhabit. In learning songs my way, I change them a little (or a lot), as others had done before me. That's also the folk process, surely?

Richard, you say "Try getting the Guardian to publish a long letter. Then you will understand why I wrote a short one. An newspaper columnist ought to try to know something of his topic. Would you send Jordan to interview a nuclear physicist?" That's like saying, 'They're stupid, they'll never understand, so why bother?' I still don't know why you did. And if you want to bother at all, you would, I hope, want to elicit something positive from the correspondence. That won't happen with a one line insult.

This thread reminds of Monty Python's Life of Brian. Do we belong to the Judean People's Front, the Front for the People of Judea, or the People's Front of Judea? Does it matter? It didn't seem to matter to 'traditional singers', as previous posts have indicated. I'd rather just sing.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Rog Peek
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:43 AM

God, I've just discovered I am a singer of folk songs. Give me a pistol and show me the way to the library!
Rog

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:47 AM

Take the horse with you, Rog, and the harpoon.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Rog Peek
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:54 AM

Sorry Peace, you'll have to elaborate.

Rog

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 12:03 PM

Ian says:

"As I get older I understand less and less why my way of learning songs - books, or other singers, or CDs, or old records - is any less 'folk process' than so-called 'traditional folk singers'. They learned their songs their way because that was what was available to them. In learning songs their way, they changed them a little (or a lot), as others had done before them. That's the folk process, surely? I - and others like me - learn my songs my modern way because modern methods are available to me. This is more national or even global than local, but this is the world I inhabit. In learning songs my way, I change them a little (or a lot), as others had done before me. That's also the folk process, surely?"

Yes it's A 'folk' process, but it's not the SAME 'folk' process as the one which informed the creation of what, to avoid confusion, I'm currently callng The Wellspring. (The 'Oral Only Etc' process).

Did you read what I said about niches? You're not isolated within a niche. You're not learning from a rarified source. You're learing songs against a background of a mass-media driven consumer market. You hear a lot of stuff from all over the place. So your interpretations will be informed by the global village, not just the village you were born in.

If we are to respect this music, we must all start by taking the trouble to understand the difference between slow, localised, community-based evolution*, and mass-media-informed evolution (*tempered by, of course, some manuscript and lyricl writing which DID travel faster than 'song of mouth').

This won't stop us changing songs, making radical new arrangments, fusing them with any other musical style we fancy - that's not the issue.

We have total freedom to create, and that's as it should be.

But we don't own this music, and we do have a duty also to respect our sources, and to pass them on along with our new innovations.

And that means taking the trouble to at least try to understand the Wellspring's place in society - in, ok if I must, in folklore.

If we allow the values of the post-revivial tradition (which are exceptional in themselves) to become muddled with the values of the pre-revivial tradition (see why I'm using Wellspring?) we blur this distinction to the point of corruption.

And that IS wrong, because that DOES begin to damage the archive, and our ablilty to attribute, to learn from source, to track back upstream etc etc.

That's all I'm saying.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 12:46 PM

In the USA the first people to be called folk singers were a talented and diverse group of individuals who were born late in the 19th century, and who came to prominence in the 1920s. These included Carl Sandburg (1878-1967), Harry "Haywire Mac" McClintock (1882-1957), Frank Crumit (1889-1943), Carson Robison (1890-1957), and John Jacob Niles (1892-1980). With exception of McClintock, who had actually learned many of his songs as a working cowboy and later as an itinerant worker, none could be considered a true source singer. They were collectors, arrangers, popularizers, adapters, censors, and even singer-songwriters. But what they did was sing folk songs, or at least songs that sounded like folk songs and which the public considered folk songs. Thus on this side of the Atlantic, that is what the term "folk singer" has meant from the beginning.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 12:54 PM

Do you have a term for the people who taught songs to the source singers, who taught songs to the folk singers, Janice?

Those are the guys we don't have a unique name for over here.

Some call em folk singers, some call em traditional singers, but as both these names can also be taken to refer to quite different (modern) singers, it's getting everyone in a muddle, and making people like my new chum Richard quite cross with one of our better newspapers!

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 01:05 PM

I was fartin' around, Rog.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 01:14 PM

"And that IS wrong, because that DOES begin to damage the archive, and our ablilty to attribute, to learn from source, to track back upstream etc etc."

How does it damage? Your ability to attribute and learn cannot possibly be so fragile that you will lose it because of a name change.

"Do you have a term for the people who taught songs to the source singers, who taught songs to the folk singers"

We usually refer to them as teachers.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Declan
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 02:17 PM

Nigel asks above how I (and others) would define a folksinger. I've managed to get thus far without a definition, and think I will survive for another while. Admittedlyh I am not someone who formally studies these things.

It seems to me that a lot of people aound here only use the definition to try to identifyh people who are not folksingers.

But I do differentiate between what is traditional or contemporary - I dislike the term revivalist, which dates back to the time of a revial in the 50s/60s. To my mind that revival is long over and the music has been revived and is alive and well.

I think for most people the term folk is a broad term which includes the narrower terms of traditional and contemporary. Richard seems to equate the terms folk and traditional and declares anything not traditional as not to be folk. This definition is not one I agree with.

Mostly for me its all music - though this is not to say that pop music or classical music are folk music. I know wha

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Declan
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 02:20 PM

Sorry hit return by mistake there.

I was going to finish by saying that I know what I like, and that for most purposes is good enough for me. In a library, music shop etc I will head for the folk or Irish Music section in the hope I'll find the stuff I like, but when I'm listening to music, I don't need to make that distinction.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 02:30 PM

The changes in terminology have caused confusion about responsibilities, and led to the loss of some basic principles - such as correct attribution of all material. For example, public ownership may mean there's no copyright, but it doesn't mean there are no responsibilities. Lots of people fail to appreciate this, only because of the confusion over what 'trad' and 'folk' are supposed to be describing.

It all contributes the a culture where attribution is casualised (I only seldom hear people in singarounds credit where a song came from - apart from 'this is a Christy Moore song' - even though the collector or writer was almost certainly written on the CD sleeve). This is bad for both the study of old songs, because it makes it harder to track back upstream, and also for writers, who may miss out on credit or even royalties.

We also have a situation where people fail to appreciate the archeological value of songs and music. Very few people want to use songs for study, but that resource exists, and we need to make sure our new versions don't sweep sand over the dig. Metal detectors not wanted!

Finally, this lack of consensus over the meaning of these two disputed words also leads to bizzarre outbreaks of in-fighting, which make it harder to promote folk music.

This would include things like Richard writing to the Guardian and helping promulgate the concept of a Folk Police (when I'm sure he's nothing of the sort), and also instances like the infamous review of Bellowhead's Flash Company on the Musical Traditions site.

If we all used the same words to mean the same things, and there was consensus instead of confusion, many thing would be better.

Tom

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: PeadarOfPortsmouth
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 03:25 PM

Tom,

I totally agree that credit should be given to the song writer or, barring that, the collector. Admittedly, that is an attitude that has been instilled in me by my mentors as I've become more serious about learning and performing the music, but I don't think that is too much to ask of anyone who loves this genre. That's just respect for the creators and history.

(As a quick aside, I've been fascinated to go back and learn where some of the songs that I heard growing up originated. I was shocked to learn that The Mermaid - which I heard as a young buck - is a variant of Child 289. I only learned who Child was within the last 18 months!)

To me, the distinction has always been between "traditional folk" (which sounds like another symantic minefield) and "contemporary folk". Clearly, there is more to it than that...but I appreciate the fact your making that distinction understable in a rational manner. I think it's starting to sink in.

Until I internalize that understanding, however, I guess I'm going to flinch when someone insists that the term "folk" be reserved for music with a specific lineage. To my mind, folk music has always meant "music of the people". Overtime, that incorporates Wellspring, revival, music hall, etc...and will eventually incorporate songs that were inspired by/influenced by that tradition. (Little "t".)

I love the term "Wellspring", however, and hereby make a motion to all 'catters that we adopt it universally as a way to end the debate. ;-)

Yours in continual learning,

Peter

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Wesley S
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 04:17 PM

Please, please, please - don't ever try to define sex or you'll take the joy out of that too :}

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 04:29 PM

LOL

Well said, Wesley.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 05:10 PM

LOL - if addressing this takes the joy out, you're into the wrong music, Wes!

Sorry, but we don't have a choice. We're volunteer gardeners.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: C. Ham
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 05:42 PM

Here's two scenarios:

Performer A learns a song from playing the record over and over again.

Performer B learns a song from hearing his father sing it hundreds of times.

Which one is a folksinger using the folk process?

Scroll down...















Performer A is Doc Watson learning "Deep River Blues" from a Delmore Brothers record.

Performer B is Frank Sinatra, Jr. who learned "Strangers in the Night" from hearing his father sing it over and over again.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 06:19 PM

I never heard a horse sing "Strangers in the Night" either.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Rog Peek
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 06:19 PM

That's a relief Peace, I thought I was really losing my marbles.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: C. Ham
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 06:21 PM

I guess Dick didn't see the Mr. Ed episode where the horse sang "Strangers in the Night."

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Art Thieme
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 06:28 PM

Tom,
You ask to know where the source singers got their songs?----Try parents--grandparents etc...
Art

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Art Thieme
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 06:33 PM

I believe Jean Ritchie would corroberate. (And also from others too.)

See her fine book "Singing Family Of The Cumberlands"

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 07:00 PM

I didn't ask where the source singers got their songs - good grief, I know that! What on earth do you take me for? lol!

I asked Janice what her term for those people was. Her descriptive, generic name, as in 'Source Singer,' 'Revival Singer,' 'Traditional Singer' etc. - a term which would differentiate pre-source singers (out of the US oral-only tradition) from her 'Folksingers' who, by her definition, came much later. ("none could be considered a true source singer. They were collectors, arrangers, popularizers, adapters, censors, and even singer-songwriters")

Do try to keep up!


(Both Doc Watson and Frank Sinatra are from the meass-media/non niche era - .i.e outwith this discussion).

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Declan
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 07:34 PM

So neither Doc Watson nor June Tabor are folk musicians?

Give us a break!