Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer

Subject: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 05:06 PM

Today's Guardian in a headline refers to Ani DiFranco as a folk singer.

I have written to the editor: -

"Sir

Today you report that Ani DiFranco is a folk singer. Your ignorance seems to know no bounds.


Richard McD. Bridge"

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,pbc
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 05:45 PM

She's the style of artist those in the US may refer to as a folk singer (or contemporary folk singer songwriter!), so it's possibly a bit much writing to the editor as there IS a link between her and older, more traditional 'folk' singers, it's just not that obvious.
I guess she sits, rather uncomfortably, somewhere between rock/pop and folk.....the excellent version of Seeger's Waist Deep in the Big Muddy on the new Appleseed 10th Anniversary release only blurs things a little more.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Wesley S
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 05:56 PM

That's because the word "folksinger" is shorter and easier to print than "singer-songwriter that often plays an acoustic guitar". And that 99.937 percent of the general population just don't care - it's the same thing to them.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 07:00 PM

The Guardian tends to get these things wrong - a few weeks back they had a note about Oh Brother Where Art Thou, and its soundtrack of "bluegrass and soul music"...

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: bobad
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 07:11 PM

If you all try real hard you all can get over it.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 07:25 PM

If Utah Phillips likes her work enough to record with her, who are we to disagree? We probably ought to be glad someone with her reputation is labelled a folk singer. Might actually change some people's perceptions of the genre ...

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Art Thieme
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 07:40 PM

I've been told that Ani was quite tqken with both Utah's music and also his positions on life. She felt it important that her fans know some of the things they might hear from him---and also imortant that he might find a whole new audience in her generation. Quite commendable.

Art

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Peace
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 08:31 PM

Good for the Guardian. Makes them appear a bit less stodgy.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 10:52 PM

No big deal.

The Guardian calling her a folk singer does not mean that the Child Ballads have been recalled or the work of Cecil Sharp has been thrown into the dumpster.    The biggest problem FOLK music has had is that people set build walls. I don't like the country-club mentality that only allows some people to be deemed "folk". There is a reason why most people hear the word "folk" and conjure up images of senior citizens in flannel shirts or paisley dresses singing out of tune songs.   

It's time to bury this crap and let the music speak for itself. You don't have to buy an Ani DiFranco CD, nor do you need to start writing your own songs.   Sing what you want to sing and let others do the same.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 05:18 AM

With you on this, Ron.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 05:22 AM

'The Guardian calling her a folk singer does not mean that the Child Ballads have been recalled or the work of Cecil Sharp has been thrown into the dumpster.'

yeh -shame about that.....

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: redsnapper
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 05:31 AM

So what? She used to refer to herself as "the little folk singer".

Much of her material is in the finest traditions of protest folk music. What does it matter if she is not a traditional singer.

I have seen Ani live several times and she remains one of my favourite artists. Twenty-five odd albums on her own label since she was an 18 year old with $50 speaks volumes too. Others should learn from her example and motivation too whether they or not they like her music or voice (I know many here do not... and that's alright too).

RS

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Grab
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 08:57 AM

Today's Guardian in a headline refers to Ani DiFranco as a folk singer.

And they're right, if you consider that Tom Paxton, Phil Ochs, Bob Dylan, Bert Jansch, Jez Lowe, June Tabor, Sandy Denny, Joni Mitchell, Richard Thompson and Ralph McTell are folk singers. They are (or were) all "singer-songwriters who play acoustic guitar", or who sing while someone else plays acoustic guitar, and all inhabit a musical world somewhere between traditional folk and pop. Most folkies, as well as the general public, would agree that the people above were folk singers. What's Ani DiFranco doing that they aren't?

Incidentally, I'm sure that letter worked wonders, Richard. Explanation? nah. Tell him how you think he got it wrong? nope. Just flame on, dude. (Still, nice to see you're donating to the Royal Mail's funds by wasting stamps - if more people bought stamps and threw them away, the Royal Mail could pay its employees better. ;-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Leadfingers
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 09:14 AM

Perhaps I have been living too sheltered a lifr - But MY only reaction was -- WHO ??

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 09:23 AM

You should excuse the Guardian as they must have obtained their information from another publication.

Today's front page news about the so called government spending watchdog who spends a huge amount of our taxes on his and his wife's travelling and entertainment is something that has been on-going in Private Eye for a couple of months or more.
What's more if you see their coverage of so called art you will see that many of their writers are very gullible people and don't live in the real world.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: redsnapper
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 09:36 AM

Perhaps Leadfingers...!

She's been discussed on Mudcat many times and has released about 30 albums since 1990!

RS

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 12:33 PM

Not to worry. The term "folk singer", largely due to the efforts of folks who share Ron's views, has become so all-inclusive that it has no meaning left at all.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Peace
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 12:41 PM

I suppose you'd like it to mean only people who do traditional songs. Well, they too are included. Suck it up, Buttercup.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Art Thieme
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 12:43 PM

Guest, I agree. And I'm tired of reading that same post from Ron O. in various posts to many threads. We can agree to disagree.

Art Thieme

Art

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 12:43 PM

Words change y'know......

Big deal.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Darowyn
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 01:07 PM

Outside the sheltered little world represented by this board and similar, clinging to fifty year old usages, this battle is lost.
Ani di Franco is a folk singer.
"Gay" does not just mean "joyful" either, you know.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 01:20 PM

"largely due to the efforts of folks who share Ron's views, has become so all-inclusive that it has no meaning left at all. "

Sounds like a good thing to me. The words never had a definitive meaning to begin with.

The words "folk music" really weren't in use until the 1800's, and by the mid-20th century the definition had changed. Here we are in the 21st century and there is no reason why it can't be evolved into a new meaning.

Art, I'm sorry if my posts upset you - but if the arguement is going to be raised, I am going to voice my opinion the same as anyone else.

One thing that I believe bears mention - I don't think ANYONE is advocating that "folk singer" or "folk music" be ALL INCLUSIVE.   There is a sense that a folk song grows out of a tradition and comes from a community. Ani DiFranco's music fits the description as far as I am concerned, and there are many more that would agree with me - although I doubt they would come to Mudcat.

The big problem is discussions like this have turned off too many people to all kinds of good music. If you read these boards you will find discussions about why attendance is dropping at folk clubs, why young people aren't becoming involved, why the music is being forgotten.   Take a step back and look at what is happening.

NO ONE is trying to destroy folk music.   If you love TRADITIONAL music, embrace that term. If you love singer-songwriters, embrace that term. When you get in arguments over which one is "folk", you end up missing the beauty in each of the genres.

Yes, we can agree to disagree. I do understand the love and dedication that so many people have to preserve this music - people like Art, Richard Bridge and many other Mudcatters. I do my best to honor that tradition and to keep the music alive, and to bring it to new audiences who might discover the same beauty and truth that we have found. No one is suggesting that this music be put out to pasture. Folk music is living tradition, and it needs to be allowed to evolve.

You might not like what your "kids" are doing with it, and a sentence in the Guardian might not fit YOUR definition - but try to understand that they are trying to keep it alive in the best way they know how.   For most of us, this music came along at a time in our lives when we related to the individual freedom and artistic expression that this music provided. Let other generations do the same, just don't expect them to do it in the same way you or I did.

Just remember, no one wants to join a dysfunctional family.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 01:24 PM

Do none of you understand the difference between "folksinger" on the one hand and "folksong-singer" on the other?

Wheter I like what DiFranco does or not is irrelevant. It is not folk song. Even if it were, she would not be a folksinger, but a folksong singer.

Absolutely unbelieveable.

Would you call Van Gogh a dancer?

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 01:35 PM

"Do none of you understand the difference between "folksinger" on the one hand and "folksong-singer" on the other?"

Why does it matter???

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 01:41 PM

Well said Ron.

The phrase 'I just scored a wicked mouse for my mac' no longer means 'I just folded a badly-behaved rodent into the pocket of my raincoat.' But it's insuting to neither Jerry nor Jobs. It's merely some old words that have acquired new meanings.

Language is a river of evolution - and the power in the most expressive of them all, English, lies entirely in the way it has eddied, ebbed, tumbled, rambled, chuckled and prattled over the centuries. And long my that process continue - for to dam it would be to damn it. Utterly.

The world Folk can no longer be equated with the word Traditional (as it was, briefly, by the International Folk Music Council in 1954). To try to fight a rearguard action (comme 'le rosbif') half a century later is, shall we merely say, unhelpful.

It really serves us right. We have been horribly lazy in this field. Making do with just 'folk' 'traditional' and sometimes 'source' (plus a few others), to describe a miriad of facinating and crucially different concepts.

What we need to do now is find some NEW words, which, for a while (only), will better describe what we mean, than these vague behemoths. And when their meaning shifts again, as it surely will in a few years time, what fun we'll have finding some new expressions.

Tom

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 02:15 PM

Tom, I think that the evolution of words IS actually what scares people.   Another example would be if I were to call you an "awful gay punk". Years ago that would have meant that you were an awesome happy young man, but "awful" changed from meaning full of awe to a negative connotation, punk went from being a young man to someone who puts safety pins in their nose, and we all know how gay has changed.

What concerns people is that "folk" will disappear - specifically traditional music.   My point is that we should not be concerned about what a few words mean but concentrate on the beauty of the song. I think "traditional" serves a better purpose, at least in 2007, of describing properties of a music.

Believe me, I understand that concern of people like Richard, but perhaps I am more hopeful that the music can speak for itself and continue to enthrall new generations - no matter what it is called.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Peace
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 02:57 PM

The evolution of words is hwat songwriters are dealing with. Hence, new songs which in 200 years will be traditional.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 03:13 PM

I hate to say it but to understand what a folk singer is there would have to be a definitive description of what folk music is - I don't have to remind you how many Mudcat threads there have been on that subject. Folk music means different things to different people.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: bankley
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 04:49 PM

she's a 'righteous babe' anyway......

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 06:26 PM

If "folk" is to have meaning that meaning must be consistent across the concepts of "folk song" "folk music" "folk tale" "folk lore" and "folk dance".

Wesley - there is. All other uses are ignorance or pretension.

"folk" does not mean "anyone whining with an acoustic guitar, even if it's been amplified"

Anyone fancy defining "Opera"?

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Peace
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 06:28 PM

The subject isn't opera. It's folk. Define it for us so we can all apologize and get on with life.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 06:30 PM

Perhaps those who maintain Ani DiFranco is a folksinger would clarify why they think she is, and differentiate her clearly from those they think are not folk singers. In other words, what are the qualities that make her "folk" in your defintion? In terms of my definitions, she is not a folksinger, so it is irrelvant. But, if you think she is, tell us why, so that we can decide whether to agree with you.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Peace
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 06:34 PM

But first, let's establish exactly what is meant by the term "folk" and "folk music". Then we will have parameters within which to argue various points of tedious shit.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 06:54 PM

The photo accompanying the article made her look like a folk singer. That's good enough for me. ;-)

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: redsnapper
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 07:31 PM

No... I would prefer it if you would define it for us Richard since it seems to be so important to you.

I don't really care whether The Guardian defines Ani DiFranco as a folksinger or not, or Bob Dylan, or Richard Thompson. I like all of their music. There are others in that genre I do not care for so much but perhaps others prefer them.

I also like many (though not all) performers of traditional song and music, blues and other genres. I don't really care what artifical category they are put into.

I also have no problem if someone else likes what I do not like. It is to be celebrated that there is diversity and something for everybody.

I care much more about, for instance, what is happening in Burma and in some other parts of the world than how The Guardian deems to decribe a singer.

I do find it disturbing, and I have to blame myself solely and entirely for this, that I have spent an unnecessarily long part of my life reading Mudcat threads about "What is Folk?"

On the positive side, this thread had a golden lining in that it has made me decide not to waste any more of my life like that.

RS

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: redsnapper
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 07:33 PM

Whoops... I made a couple of typos. Oh dear.

RS

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Grab
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 07:35 PM

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/folksong

folk song also folk·song
1. A song belonging to the folk music of a people or area, often existing in several versions or with regional variations.
2. A song composed in the style of traditional folk music.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/folksinger

folk·sing·er or folk sing·er
n.   A singer of folksongs.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=30132&dict=CALD

folk
modern music and songs that are written in a style similar to that of traditional music:
I enjoy listening to folk (music/songs).
folk singers
a folk club/festival

Do none of you understand the difference between "folksinger" on the one hand and "folksong-singer" on the other?

Two separate dictionaries say there's no difference. Maybe instead of the rest of the world being ignorant, *your* usage is what's out of step...?

And if you get wound up over "folksinger" instead of "folksong-singer", man, you really need to get yourself a hobby - you've clearly got way too much free time. ;-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,dick greenhaus
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 10:08 PM

But it would be nice for those who care about such things to be able to go to a radio program, or CD bin or festival labeled "folk" and have some idea what they're going to hear.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Beer
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 10:13 PM

Dictionaries????? Wonder if they consulted any folk singers or Folk lovers to give them an answer. What ever the heck those two words mean.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 10:16 PM

I'm with you, Leadfingers. I've heard the name but that's it. However, I'm glad to learn she's a "righteous babe". That's all I need to know. But let's ask Bill D.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 12:22 AM

"But it would be nice for those who care about such things to be able to go to a radio program, or CD bin or festival labeled "folk" and have some idea what they're going to hear."

If you think "folk" is the only problem catagory, you have not been in a record store recently. Come to think of it, there aren't many left. Check "country". Do Bob Wills and Keith Urban belong side by side? How about "rock" - what do the Beatles, the Grateful Dead, Kanye West and Marilyn Manson have in common?   Check out "Celtic" next time you see a CD bin... everything from Christy Moore to Riverdance to Joe Heaney and sometimes Van Morrison.

Most people do not buy CD's unless they have an idea of what is on it, and radio's have dials (or buttons) to switch off when it isn't to the listeners taste.

IF you can't live without a lable, perhaps "Traditional" would work. You can't change what has happened - folk has expanded it's use.   It's only a word, the music is still out there.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 03:31 AM

Bang on Ron

If the question had been "Do none of you understand the difference between "traditional singer" on the one hand and "traditional song-singer" on the other?" the debate wojuld be more germaine, because the word Traditional does have a narrower definition these days than Folk - not least because that definitin is in part at least defined in law (in matters of copyright anyway).

'Traditional singer' is usually understood to mean someone from before the revivial - i.e. living and singing within the 'oral' tradition, before recordings and mass media priniting became commonplace (while remembering that the oral tradition is itself misnamed because there was actually a huge amount of writing down, publishing, semi-pro performance and composition by educated/professional writers etc). The word traditional here is being used to describe the singer and his artistic ecosystem, not the songs he sings.

'Traditional song singer' would include the above, but also anyone post revival who sings a traditional song - including me.

'Traditional song' is also quite well defined, though again there are two sometimes conflicting meanings. One means 'old, out of copyright, anon, in public ownership and at least partly reformed by mainly oral transmission,' the other means 'associated with a traditional activity but not necessarily any of the above' (e.g. Three Lions).

All this is bad enough. It's hardly surprising that people get confused, as is their perogative - it's their language after all. If we want to tidy this up, we really need to find more words to make the above less open to misunderstading.

Meanwhile, 'Folk' - which could have been substituted for the T word up until the 60s - has moved on. This is all Bob Dylan's fault, but he's ok about it now.

I do think Richard has a point here though: If "folk" is to have meaning that meaning must be consistent across the concepts of "folk song" "folk music" "folk tale" "folk lore" and "folk dance". I hadn't really thought about that. Certainly the other uses have not been eroded in the way folk song, folk music and folk singer have been. I'd like to agree that the meaning should be consistent - that would be good all round, but actually it's not consistent, and all we can do about it is notice, and complain if we don't like it.

There is a very very slim possibility that if enough people write to the Guardian about this, the F and T words might slowly move closer together again over time - if enough people campaign for it, but the reality is that words mean what the person you're talking to wants them to mean, not what you yourself think. Your task as the writer or speaker, if you don't want to be misunderstood, is to choose language that won't be misinterpreted by your listener.

It's unfortunate in some ways that folk has lost it's original meaning, because its value is a 'finger pointing back through history' has largely been lost. But the word still has A meaning, and we still have Trad - for a while yet anyway, and as long as people notice the difference and use both words carefully we can still tell people what's in the tin when we need to.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Narrowboat
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 03:44 AM

P is for pedantic.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 03:50 AM

This is a discussion for people who are interested in the use and value of words - which can be a fascinating study in it's own right. If you are not interested, narrowboat, feel free not to join in.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 03:59 AM

It says ' India ' on the bus tyres, but they don't go there.

eric

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 04:09 AM

Actually I'll correct that.

Yes, I'm being pedantic, but there is a good reason for my pedantry. As has been discussed at length eslewhere - (but still needs to be said because a lot of people still don't get it) - all this definition stuff does matter, and matter a LOT.

Why? Well, if we don't use these words carefully - within a consensus, and with proper defintion and explanation when needed - we risk eroding our mutual ablility to track back, and uncover important 'archeological' information through music. And that DOES matter.

Also we contribute to a looseness of definition and attribution which can lead to the separation of writers' credits from their work, with potentially serious legal and financial consequences further down the line, through the foolish muddling of the separate meanings and legal definitions of the words folk and traditional

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 04:32 AM

Folk song/music. 1954 definition.
Folksinger.   A singer of folk songs who has learned them through the folk process.
Folksong-singer. A singer of folksongs who has learned them in any other way.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 04:40 AM

And what year is it now Richard? As a lawyer you'll know that none of those ever had any legal weight. Which is why the PRS chose to avoid the word folk altogether, but to accept the word traditional. The 1954 consensus was dissipated decades ago leaving us with today's legal and conventional definitions

Which are...?

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 08:58 AM

I actually found the Ani DiFranco Website and listened to a few sound tracks ! Now I know why I have never heard of her - I spend MY time listening to (And Performing) Folk Music in a number of its forms!

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: PMB
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 09:20 AM

Would it be better if she renamed herself Aine niFranco? And as for Child ballads- are we allowed to perform them these days without a certificate from the police?