BS: Rugby - were we robbed

Subject: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: Big Phil
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 07:48 AM

We played well, fought hard but fair, did not complain and took our defeat well enough.

But, were we robbed, was the try ok, or was the foot in contact with the line before the ball was down. I will nail my colours to the mast here, the try was good and we "was robbed". The ref did make some poor decisions in favour of SA and on the odd occasion, we were playing against 16 men.

As a rugby fan I congratulate South Africa on their victory, they were better at the " black arts " than we were.

Phil*

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: Hawker
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 08:05 AM

The debate will go on & on, We may or may not have been robbed of a try, and I accept the final decision on that one, at least Rugby, unlike football, gives the facility for more than just the ref to make the decision, or for him to at least pass the buck. As for the rest of the refs decisions, I agree we were against 16 men! Very poor refereeing in my opinion. However, I do feel the better team won. They have been more consistent throughout the competition - and their kicker NEVER missed a shot - that's what wins matches.
A well played - and on the whole good spirited match, though England lost, I enjoyed the match and look forward to 2011.
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 08:10 AM

Johnny's penalty kick from touch was impossible, but he proved he is the best kicker of all time! What is that gadget they put on the grass to hold the ball? When I played rugby at QE Boys (you know, top of the A level league!) some other poor sod had to lay down and hold the ball!!

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: The Walrus
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 12:05 PM

Unfortunately, I missed the match, so I can't comment on the quality of the refereeing (where were he and the linesmen from?), however, I did seen a slow motion shot of the disputed try and, well, it looked to me as if the foot hit the line a tad after the ball went over, but the ref's decision is final, and, if he was wrong, then he was wrong, but there's nothing to be done about it except to accept that we lost, congratulate the South African team on their victory and to serve notice on them that we're going to take the cup back in 2011 :D

W

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: Cats
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 12:31 PM

No, it most defintley was not a try. I thought it was but having looked very carefully frame by frame, his foot was is touch. We were not robbed. England were outplayed and beaten by a better team.
As for Johnny being the best kicker of all time, sorry can't agree. Remember Dusty Hare. Superb kicker whose record stood for years.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 05:58 PM

They didn't win then?

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: vectis
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 06:26 PM

Sadly, I have to agree. The foot touched the line before he lifted it and the ball was still in the air at the time.
Sodditt but the better team definately won. They played much stronger rugby throughout the competition.
The ref was French and obviously held a grudge against England for putting his lot out of the final.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 06:30 PM

So vectis reckons that the ref gave a fair decision, but only because he was biased against England, whereas if he hadn't been biased he'd have given an unfair decision that favoured England...

Slightly confusing.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 08:51 PM

I do not know the laws of rugby and have never watched even two minutes of the game. Until last night that is, when I manfully sat through the whole match. So this is how I saw it.

If one of these overweight chaps is unlucky enough to receive the ball, at least twelve men (of either team - it doesn't seem to matter) will immediately pile on top of him. After two minutes of this carnage, no-one actually has to go to hospital. Yet, once this unseemly pile-up breaks up, the commentator congratulates one of the two teams for its "excellent defending." Ten seconds later, paradoxically, a "penalty" is awarded against a chap who perpetrates the merest, politest trip-up of an opposing player it is possible to imagine!   Now, if you happen to receive the ball deep in your own half you do one of two things. Either you kick the ball as high into the air as you can and try to run to where you think it will land; this absolutely never works, as a member of the opposing team will always get the ball. Or you kick the ball as ferociously as you can into "touch" in your opponent's half of the field. In proper football you would get a yellow card for this for time-wasting, but in rugby it is regarded as a magnificent achievement, even though it holds up play for at least a minute. Then, after that, there is a throw-in (pardon my footie lingo again) that I think is referred to as a "line-out," a term that, oddly, bears no relation to what is actually being done. Basically, one of your team throws the ball along a line of your players and their players and someone (presumably the least overweight chap on the field) leaps up and politely tips the ball in one direction. Nothing really happens as a consequence. Although this move rarely seems to confer any advantage whatsoever to either team, the commentators are of the view that the team who do the better line-outs are clearly the superior side and are more likely to win.   Now I must conclude here, though I'm aware that I haven't even touched on the labyrinthine points system or even on "scrums," which basically seem to be a legalised form of man-on-man sexual assault, and I won't even mention "scrum-pox" which, to my horror, I heard someone on the radio talking about earlier today.

Now I hope that all you rugger aficionados will at least acknowledge that I learned an awful lot from just one 80-minute game. Sadly, I am far from being converted. When's Gary Lineker on again?

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 08:59 PM

Steve:

That's one of the best concise descriptions I've ever seen, and I've reffed rugby for 17 years after a fifteen year playing career. I presume you're British, and would suggest that you'll see a better match at your local second division club than you will at a world cup, simply because lower level refs are required to actually enforce the laws of the game. It seems that once a ref makes the highest grade, he no longer cares to enforce anything, resulting in a mess like the one you saw.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 11:14 PM

Well, l have never watched more than a few frames of rugby on television but since reading Steve Shaw's description and summing up I may not know much more about it but I am highly entertained.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: GUEST,Jeff
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 01:07 AM

One of my fondest memories when traveling in the great UK was a time driving the A470 from Cardiff to Trefriw w/a native son behind the wheel(we drive on the wrong side here on our side y'know)listening to the Wales/Ireland qualifier for the Rugby World Cup on the car radio. It was very exciting though completely foreign to me. Being a Welsh-American all of a sudden I was rooting passionately for Wales. I grew up playin American Football so I had a respect for rugby though I'd never played it. It was like a spirit was channeling through me and I got very involved and insisted we stop somewhere and watch the balance of the match. We found a pub, ordered 2 pints of bitters each and I hollered like a madman for the Welshmen to no avail. Immediately becaume fast friends or blood-oath enemies(all good-natured, of course) with all the rooters in the pub. Was given on the spot and spot on explanations of the subtleties of the match as it progressed. They were given a sound thrashing by the opposing Irish team and were elimimated from the qualifying...I think next year they hired the coach from the All Blacks.

Anyway, for the next year or two I would stay up late on Sunday nights to watch Rugby highlights much to the consternation and concern of my friends and son. He was 13 at the time and thought it strange I would have this sudden passion for rugby when I brought him home a replica Wales National team Jersey and an Aberystwyth Field hockey jersey. He still has them and played rugby for his fraternity in college...They got killed everytime out as they had no real concept and worse yet no size or speed to speak of. But they were game and won respect in taking their weekly thumping in the fall. The field hockey jersey he used when he played roller hockey w/his mates on Sundays. My son's out of college now, but his fraternity still fields a team though I don't think they've got one in the win column, yet. Someday, someday.

It was an off chance experience for which I'm thankful I had. The folks in the pub were raucous, but always well intentioned and they made this culturally inexperienced Yank feel real welcome. Raise a glass to those good folks in the pub, the very essence of 'hail, fellow well met' A sad day in my life was when All Sports American network ESPN discontinued showing international highlights of rugby, football, Austalian rules football and Irish Hurling. I'll get them back someday, though as we've got a satelite dish at our place and when we've got the money we'll have it turned on.

So congrats to South Afirica and condolances to England.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 02:51 AM

England gave away their penalties with stupid and sometimes petulant breaches of the rules. They failed to offload or even control the ball quickly enough after line-outs and, for the last 30 minutes, seemed to have run out of imagination (if not enthusiasm). And, as for the try, it looked to me as if both Cueto's foot and knee were in touch as he grounded the ball.
For me, the better team won.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 03:07 AM

The ref was French who spoke perfect English with a very strong Irish accent. Remarkable. Of course he could just have been Irish I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: GUEST,Dazbo at work
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 08:34 AM

the ref (Allain Rolland IIRC) is Irish but is of French Extraction (definitely Father not sure of mother). He played a few times for Ireland in his playing days.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: GUEST,Wyrd Sister
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 10:28 AM

It was the video ref who disallowed the try.
Australian.
Hmm.
But as one of the players said, 'We don't want to go on about it or we'd sound like Kiwis.'

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: Schantieman
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 11:10 AM

The best thing about Rugby, IMHO, is that the players accept the referee's (or in this case referees') decision and just get on with the game. In soccer there'd've been arguments on the field (probably unpunished by sendings-off) and riots off it. The right attitude to the ref's authority was shown by Martin Johnson commentating, who said that we just have to accept it and get on (OWTTE).

England were beaten by the better side. The South Africans won far more line-out ball (so much so that the English stopped contesting it after a bit) and made fewer stupid mistakes.

By the way, I hear that the All Blacks have a new Samaritans number for Rugby fans.   0800 101010

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won nothing won nothing won nothing



:-)

(smiling in defeat)

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: GUEST,Seaking
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 02:11 PM

Technically no, morally no. The better side won on the night and that's only right.

The manner in which you accept defeat is as important as the manner you celebrate victory so both sides came out winners for their sport.

Bloody shame though...

Chris

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: skipy
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 02:41 PM

I was gutted! but I saw a photo today in the press & in my humble opinion, sadly, it was not a try.
We had 4 South Africans in the Rugby Club with us & I along with dozens of others was pleased to shake their hands.
For me the team did us proud, they are still heros!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: Newport Boy
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 03:19 PM

As a Welshman (compliments only, please - no sympathy required!) I am very pleased to see that we only have decent, fair-minded English supporters on Mudcat.

I was fairly certain that a try should have been awarded, but the one photograph in today's paper seems to show me wrong (again).

Phil

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 10:20 AM

Go METS!

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: GUEST,frikkie
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 05:10 AM

vyfteen ses
lekker wen, Bokke!

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: GUEST,frikkie
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 11:37 AM

Just for you, GUEST:
15-6
Nice win, Boks!

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 11:45 AM

Don't lose that number.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 02:30 PM

Yes we wuz robbed, the lovers of open Rugby.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 02:57 PM

Yes it was a bit dour.

In sport that's one way of winning though.

Like when Alex Higgins used to get beaten by Steve Davis at snooker. The announcer would say, another immaculate safety shot from Davis....

and you'd feel the nation's heart sinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: gnu
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 03:06 PM

I WAS ROBBED! Got all ready to watch the game... beer, munchies, VCR recording, stereo hooked up and volume turned up... and what the F***??? Not on Fox Sports World... not on CBC... not on RSN... not on TSN... searched and found it on Pay Per View! Arrrgggghhhhh! The beer and munchies were good.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: Gurney
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 04:51 PM

Everyone has been robbed since they changed the scoring so that kickers win matches.

Ard Mhacha said it for me, just above.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: GUEST,Elfcall
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 03:27 AM

I am a touch confused - when I last looked you score 5 points for a try and 2 more points if you are successful with a conversion. That would still make England behind by 2 points.

Yes I know that a try would have changed the dynamics of the game but that would be true for both sides.

Elfcall

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 03:49 AM

All you need to know is that Johnny Foreigner was up to his slimey tricks again. Our lads done brilliant.

In every English breast beats a heart of pure gold, whereas the other lot are a bit sneaky and would have been protesting to European Court of Human Rights, if we'd really got stuck in - which is no more than they deserved - given their past history of grubby tactics.

Was that blokes boot on the ground? That bloody referee should count himself grateful it wasn't up his arse.

One attempts, of course, to be fair minded and generous of spirit (we English are famous for that the world over), but if they're going to impose the rules in a manner that causes us to lose - I think the only valid course of action open to us is acts of mindless violence, shouting obscenities alcohol abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby - were we robbed
From: Big Phil
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 12:15 PM

Like socccer [football] then.