Speaking ill of the dead.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 12:24 PM

'That ain't even the start of it . . . ' Peace (supra).

Quite so, Peace.

I wonder what the response, and reaction, of those who post under a nom de jeu would be, if a High Court Order for Discovery of Documents were to be made ; and simultaneous Application to serve outside the Jurisdiction annexed ?

Those who know me personally will vouch for the fact that I never threaten : I act.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 10:59 AM

Just checking to see if I could use the word on it's own :)
G

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Peace
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 10:30 AM

That ain't even the start of it, Giok.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 10:07 AM

Mother

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Peace
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 10:03 AM

If some motherfu#ker has something to say about other posters, that person should be made to post under his/her regular name. Otherwise, the posts should be trashed. Without recourse, without remorse, without mercy. PERIOD!

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 02:26 PM

Well his manager in latter days Sandy Glennon was not noted for his sobriety either. I was with him in his car when he got stopped and breathalysed on the way back from a wee soiree at Cliff Aungier's flat after an evening at The Dungeon Club in Tower Bridge road. We were taken to the police station, and eventually the police released him, but gave the car keys to me as he wasn't fit to drive. I drove him back to his flat in Beaufort Street Chelsea, where he thanked me, took his car keys back, and left me to find my own way home to Richmond upon Thames. This was at 3AM, I was not a happy bunny I can tell you, but i was younger and fitter then.
Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 02:18 PM

To Dick Miles: a small point but the Lisa Turner incident with MacColl was NOT at the Singer's Club but at the Ballads and Blues Club before Ewan and Peggy went off to run the Singers Club.

I personally knew Alex for a number of years booked him regularly and must admit kept an eye on him at the bar or nearest pub to ensure that his friends of whom there were many genuine ones didn't keep him away long enough not to be able to continiue the evening ON TIME. At one time he asked me to take on the task of being his manager. I always found him to be good natured sober or with a drink or two inside him. He was a good entertainer and that was why we used him so often and he always filled the club.

I could say more but it seems enough has already been said but I am always amazed at the amount of vitriol that gets thrown around on this site.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Rog Peek
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 01:26 PM

Winger
Shouldn't that have been 'every fecker....?

Rog

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 01:23 PM

I'll let you have the last word. By the way, shouldn't the 'i' be an 'a', and the 'g' a 'k' ?

I'll not bandy words with one who launches squibs from behind a pseudonym.

Jim C - I'll drop FolkieDave a line aand ask him to pass my private E-Mail address to you.

I'm fed up with time wasters. Life is too short to waste my intellect on the likes of Wanker - sorry - that should have been Winger.

Up yours and twist it.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Winger
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 01:13 PM

"Every fucker is blackguarding me for making the comparison "

" 'Noli illegitimi carborundum' - don't let the bastards grind you down."

"I've been bugged by experts."

You said it, Mr. Pugh.

Infamy! Infamy! They've all got it in for me.

A candidate for martyrdom if ever I saw one. Now, to get back to the original topic ...

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 12:50 PM

It would take more than your spite and sarcasm to make me paranoid, Winger.

I've been bugged by experts. Someone in short pants don't bother me.

Back to your titty bottle before your mother realises you're out.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Winger
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 12:03 PM

"Wonder what, if anything, Winger will make of that ?"

Do I detect a little paranoia, Mr. Pugh?

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 05:53 AM

Maria married my former flat mate, Mark, in 1969 or 70. The last

time I saw Maria (and Mark) was at a Manchester Folk Festival at the

Uni, which must have been in 1972 or 1973. Dave and Toni Arthur and

I did a workshop on Witching, and I was complimented by Paul

Graney. Praise indeed !

I taught Maria's younger sister, Jacinta, for part of her

post graduate professional Legal qualifications (Law Society).

Wonder what, if anything, Winger will make of that ?

I believe Steve Mayne sings occasionally, but I left Manchester many

years ago - not long after you did.

Kind regards, Bryn

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 02:11 PM

Bryn,
Mary Humphreys is till around.
Whatever happened to Maria Louden?
Jim

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 09:22 AM

Hi Captain -

My last posts were 'dog Latin' - you didn't recognise 'carborundum', as in abrasive ? 'Noli illegitimi carborundum' - don't let the bastards grind you down.

The other is more dog Latin - 'we're always in the shit - only the depth varies'.

About right, I'd say, on reflection.

Sorry for the thread creep, fellow 'Catters.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 08:53 AM

Bryn,My post re Padraig o keefe,was to give a little more in formation to anyone wHo may be new to Irish music .,didnt mean to cause any offence,I dont understand latin,I can do rhyming slang and backslang though.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 05:25 AM

No, Jim, just this thread.

Strange how a throwaway remark can result in virtiolic vituperation,ain't it ?

There aren't many of us left from the Manchester Critics still in contact, and I value beuing in contact with you, and your friendship.

Regards, Bryn

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 04:40 PM

"I'm out of this. To you all - Blessed Be and be Blessed."
Bryn,
I hope this doesn't mean your leaving us - I would hate to lose such an articulate soul-mate, especially as we haven't been in contact for nearly forty years.
Best wishes,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 09:06 AM

Did any of you read my post -

'I have treasured memories of Alex Campbell' ?

Jim C - Excess of alcohol ruined my voice.

I speak only for myself, because I am the only person I can speak for, as regards my addiction.

Between all the Woodbines, and all the whiskey, there isn't even the Blues left.

These days, it's a case of live gigs at the Royal and Dearngate, or de Montford Hall (as the case might be).

I stil play guitar, now and again.

Sometimes, I look at my Morris bells, hanging on my Study wall, and I could cry.

If I did, tho, there are those who have posted in this thread who would say

'There's the alkie, feeling sorry for himself'.

I'm out of this. To you all - Blessed Be and be Blessed.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: goatfell
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 06:46 AM

never knew him, and as you say if those 'friends' knew that he was an alcholic then they would not get him a drink of alchol would they now.
But these people are as you say just hangers on.

Tom

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 05:25 AM

Padraig o Keefe,ws an educated man,the son of a schoolteacher,he himself became a schoolteacher,after he resigned as a schoolteacher,he taught the fiddle,travelling to peoples houses by foot or cycling.
one of his pupils Jack Connell said that he studied the fiddle playing of Fitzgerald of Lacka and of CorneyDrewfrom near Scarta glen,who in turn got music from Gradda,A travelling teacher from Tipperary.
Padraig apparently learned music theory,and possibly was influenced by 78 recordings of the times.
there is an excellent book by David Lyth,called bowing styles in Irish Fiddle Playing,which has much information on O Keefe available from Comhaltas,
To describe O Keefe as an elderly country gentlemen,is a poor and misleading description,he was an educated man, a schoolmaster by profession,and a man who studied traditional music seriously.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 04:37 AM

Mortally offended.........doubt if I'll recover, have taken to my bed.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 03:22 AM

Winger,
I agree with your reaction to Brune's stunt; it was mine when I first heard of it. It was when it was put into context for me (by Parker) that I realised the consequences of it.
The production team had decided to devote a section of 'The Travelling People' to Travellers as songmakers making songs about their lives. There wasn't much available to them at the time so they put out an appeal. Brune sent in his tape, the team selected one and gave it to Sheila to learn. It was edited in as a 'genuine Travellers song'. Brune said nothing about it until the final editing had been completed. Had it been left in, it would have been jumped on as phony and would, I believe, have been a major flaw inn extremely important programme; so it was withdrawn and Sheila didn't appear.
I know from personal experience that Travellers were having a rough time in the sixties; Harry Watton, the man who proposed that they should be exterminated, had plenty of supporters.
The Radio Ballad introduced me, and thousands of others to the situation and we got involved. As amusing as the stunt might have been, I'm glad it was found out in time - po-faced if you like.
Incidentally, the attitude to Travellers here in Ireland at the present time has now reached ethnic cleansing proportions - pity MacColl and Parker aren't around any more to do another one!.
Jim Carroll
PS John: WMD = WLD = Wee Little Drummer (not so amusing when you have to explain it) - hope he didn't mind.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Peace
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 05:27 PM

Don't speak ill of the dead lest you meet in some future clime.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 05:26 PM

Henry Martin actually Al
G

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 05:19 PM

so what Scottish song did you sing. I dunno what I'd do if someone asked me to do an English song. I suspect I might be offended. Not that I don't know English songs.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 04:39 PM

Like it Bubblyrat :)

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: bubblyrat
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 04:37 PM

"In Vino Veritas " is probably better expressed as " Fecundi Calices, Quem Non Fecere Disertum ?". But who cares ?? Richard.....Is an "Espouser" a Liverpudlian who has relocated to Spain ?? Anyway, I first heard of Alex Campbell in about 1964/65, when I first started going to / playing in "folk "-clubs, and as far as I"m concerned, the man was " THE MAN" , and could do little or no wrong, ---likewise Cyril T., but being in Her Majesty"s Imperial Navy, I was biased.At the time, there were other performers of a Jockanese disposition, viz. the OTHER Campbells ( Ian & Lorna ), plus the Corries ( sorry ! ) , Archie Fisher,(I think ) , Bert Jansch, and ,of course, Hamish Imlach, who was probably unable to even perform, like that famous Canadian snooker player, unless he"d had about 14 pints first.--in fact, having become famous in Germany, he assured himself of a plentiful supply of the sup, by buying himself his own bar !! ( Just around the corner from where I lived in Bielefeld-----no names, no pack-drill !! ) .The point is, they all "took a drink ", or so it seemed, and quite rightly too ! If they declined somewhat, in their later years, it was/is only to be expected. I believe Alan Taylor ( Oh ! Joy ! ) may even have written a song on the subject. I personally have paid my dues, and been hung out to dry , after a surfeit of Tiger, San Miguel, and Pusser"s Rum ( "Bubbly" ), in RVH Netley, The Herbert Day Centre ,Bournemouth, and St. Annes Hospital, Sandbanks , Poole.Let that be a lesson to you all !! ( And I am neither dead, teetotal, nor Scottish !! )------

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 03:12 PM

Funny thing that, I had a similar thing happen when they recorded Folk on 2 at my local club. I was encouraged to sing Scots songs, although it's not a thing I do that much. The producer thought that as I have a Scots accent I should sing Scots songs.
Go figger as they say!
Giok

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Winger
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 03:06 PM

Jim, I confess to having a chuckle at your retelling of the John Brune/Ewan MacColl affair on a previous thread. The image of a big hairy bloke singing in falsetto in an effort to convince MacColl that he was a female traditional singer was too much.

Perhaps it's the perception of many that MacColl wasn't exactly renowned for leaving 'em rolling in the aisles, that makes it so comically ridiculous and which draws a po-faced response from his disciples.

More seriously though, why did MacColl think it necessary to teach Sheila Stewart a new song for the programme, when surely a song from her family's rich repertoire would have been more appropriate.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 01:43 PM

Julia Clifford, PaddyCronin,were taught exclusively by Padraig Okeefe.
Denis Murphy,had already had lessons before he was taught by OKeefe,so he had less influence on Murphy.Johhny Oleary was primarily a box player,who was helped alot by John Clifford.
PaddyJones is another fiddle pupil of Okeefes.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 01:28 PM

'Padraig Ó Keeffe,also had at least two pupils' - including Denis Murphy and Johnny O'Leary!

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 07:07 AM

Padraig o Keefe,also had at least two pupils[probably more]Julia Clifford,and Paddy Cronin[Who is still playing well]who contributed a lot to the Irish Traditonal music scene.
Seamus Ennis was responsible for recording the fine singer Beth Cronin,and left us with some fine music himself.
Folkie Dave,But is it always as clear cut as that,some people may have not retained their vocal range ,but they can still put over a story in a song,and still give a good night,despite their age,they may be not the same as when they were twenty,but they are not all used up,and still have much to offer.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 05:33 AM

Here is the dilemma for me at any rate.

Do you go to the gig - hoping against hope that the artist will be as good as they once were?

Do you not go to the gig - knowing there is a good chance it will be awful?

I prefer to remember the artist as they once were and not go to the gig.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 05:18 AM

WMD Jim, which weapon of mass destruction did you have in mind as the object of your respect?

Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 05:11 AM

It is necessary to understand,the life of professional folksingers,to undestand the pitfalls many have them have fallen into.
The Loneliness of the scene,the long periods between gigs, spent killing time.I have[Unlike Jim]been there and done it,there has been a long list of casualties,through both drink and drug abuse,other than Alex,but not one person[imo]would have wanted to follow Alex Campbell,when he was on top of his game, which I reckon was 85 percent of the time.
Lets get all this into perspective,I could give a list[withonly afew minutes thought] of 24 people, all full time folk performers,who have become victims of their lifestyle,but I would prefer to remember them in their hey day,and for the pleasure they have given us,than for their flaws.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 04:28 AM

now thats what you call roots music!

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 03:16 AM

To cool thinks maybe, an explanation for those who are not familiar with Pádraig O'Keefe and his music and a story of one of his tunes.
He was a music teacher and magnificent fiddle player from Sliabh Luachra (The Rushy Mountain), on the Cork and Kerry borders; he died in 1963.
At one time fellow fiddle player, Denis Murphy visited him to get one of his (unnamed) tunes, and finding him not at home, was told he was up at the bog cutting turf. He found him sitting on the side of the bank of turf having a smoke.
When he asked for the tune, O'Keefe said he'd give it in exchange for a pint. Murphy agreed, and O'Keefe wrote the tune out for him on the newly cut bank of turf with his finger. The tune has ever since been known as 'The Bank of Turf'.
Not a lot of people know that!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 02:50 AM

Those who think this has degenerated into a vaccuuous slanging match are, of course right, it has become somewhat out of hand and irrelevant, my fault as much as anybody's. I mistakenly took the question in general terms and hadn't realised it was aimed specifically at Alex Campbell - a perfectly valid and laudable topic, of course.
People have said what they thought of Campbell and as far as I'm concerned, that's it.
Unlike others, I did not detect any nastiness; over-enthusiasm maybe, but that is as it should be; we'd all be fairly colourless if we didn't step over the line of our enthusiasms about who and what we respect occasionally.
I'm am sure Bryn didn't intend his 'Capting' comment nastily; I certainly didn't. I assumed we were all old enough to remember 'The Goon Show', where it originated, and I also assumed we all had a sense of humour - maybe not, on both counts.
Personally, I find tags rather unnecessary and am occasionally tempted to take a rise out of them; Countess Di and WMD, (both of whom I respect greatly) for instance. I would be far more comfortable addressing people by their real names - but that's me.
One problem for me is that I always manage to get drawn into harangues with Dick Miles; totally pointless, as we appear to be light years apart in our opinions, and I suspect he gets as little out of them as I do.
I am tempted to say it won't happen again, but I suppose it shall.
Sorry if I have given any offence, I didn't intend to.
Best,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Winger
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 11:21 PM

Jim Carroll wrote:

"However, the creation of sacred cows and no-go areas do no good to the music and are, in the long run, an insult to their memories."

I totally agree, Jim.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 06:30 PM

100,sorry leadfingers.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 06:29 PM

Jim Carroll,What a load of tripe.
I have enjoyed O Keefes music on recordings. on the occasion I mentioned he was unprofessional,
I brought OKeefes name and the others into this discussion reluctantly,so that people, new to the scene, would realise,that heavy drinking used to be quite prevalent on the folkscene,and that Alex Campbell was only one of many.
my opinions of Brunes behaviour is irrelevant.
I have never in 31 years of performing been unable to perform,because I was drunk.
last sunday ,I did a gig at cork singers club,I was told by several people, that I still had a good voice,But then I dont drink excessively,tonight I have had a pint of beer and two glasses of wine.
my voice and my instrumental abilities,on concertina and guitar,are very important to my financial welfare,so I dont abuse myself.
I repeat on the occasions I saw AlexCampbell,his performances were not affected by his drinking.,for all my professionalism,I wouldnt have wanted to have followed him on stage,Alex Campbell had flair,and on the occasions I saw him,he had the audience eating out of his hand,on those occasions he was a magical performer.
any objective person will understand,he wouldnt have had a 25 plus year career,if he hadnt been able to consistently deliver the goods.
Dick Miles


,

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 05:52 PM

Cap'n

You were equating an elderly countryman who played the fiddle with a professional performer who persistently turned up for gigs drunk- that's dishonest.
Unprofessional - isn't Pádraig O'Keefe dead - and you calling him unprofessional tsk - tsk.
I assume you support Brune's behaviour in getting Sheila Stweart excluded from The Travelling People - you didn't answer.
It's when I read of your support for squalids like Brune and Kennedy (though you did do a sharp U turn over the latter), that I realise that the choices of taste I made so long ago were the right ones - keep up the good work.
Nor did you answer my question on drinking adversly affecting performance, just as John didn't answer my question; what an enigmatic pair.
Anyway, that's enough mud-wreastling for one day, I'm off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 04:09 PM

The Padraig o Keefe story is not nonsense,I was quoting an example of unprofessionalism,along with Seamus Ennis,and Margaret Barry,The reason I mentioned these,was to put into perspective Campbells alleged misdeameanours,to right an impression given by you and others[Diane Easby],that Alex Campbell was frequently unprofessional and frequently did bad gigs.
If that was the case how did he have such along career?,you havent answerd this yet,what you are saying does not make sense.
you Vilify the dead[JohnBrune],and yet you get upset about people being negative about Ewan Maccoll,Ido Too,but I dont ever speak badly of the dead .
this capting stuff is puerile.Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 03:32 PM

We of the general public have a right to know!!!!!!!

Ah....what a wealth of trouble in 10 short words......

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 03:22 PM

There you go again, being nasty and personal. You were told the name is Captain Birdseye and not Capting, but you repeated the insult just to be unkind.
WHY ???????????????

G

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 03:05 PM

It's all Greek to me.
Cap'n,
Now we seem to have left your Padráig O'Keefe nonsense safely to bed, perhaps we can sort out the Alex Campbell bit.
I cited the two instances of my having seen Campbell as not being particularly edifying, particularly the 'technicolour yawn' one and said I didn't rate him too highly as a singer. I have no dispute with Campbell's track record; if he gave people pleasure, fine; he didn't give me any.
You can have no argument with either of my statements, as they are my experiences and my tastes, nothing to do with you.
I went on to say I believe an excess of alcohol can seriously damage your singing, and did so in Campbell's case - I am certainly not alone on this thread. Do you disagree with this - surely not? I would be interested in Bryn's view on this if he cares to give it.
My comments on John Brune centred on his attempts to wreck the Radio Ballad, the travelling people - as outlined by Sheila Stewart in her interview with Bob Pegg in The Living Tradition. Do you think that forcing the removal of Sheila Stewart from The Travelling People by a vindictive prank was a good thing or a bad thing?
We of the general public have a right to know!!!!!!!
I can't help but notice that the questioner still hasn't answered my question, therefore I will assume that his concern is only for the singers he happens to reckon.
Jim Carroll
PS Bryn, the John Brune debate occured on another thread whose title I can't recall - perhaps somebody can point it out for you. It revolves around a particularly vicious piece of anti-MacCollism and can be sourced in an interview with Sheila Stewart by Bob Pegg which can be found on The Living Tradition archive, (and which the Capting apparently found 'amusing'.... but there you go

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 09:16 AM

noli illegitimi carborundum.

In faecam aeternum summus - solii profundii variat.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 09:14 AM

carpe diem et mutatis mutandis.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 08:38 AM

In vino veritas (hic)