Speaking ill of the dead.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 08:34 AM

Pro bono publico

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 08:20 AM

De mortuis nisi bonum from now on - promise !

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 08:03 AM

I suggest the last few posts belong in the why do people speak ill of singers thread.
It really should be possible to debate without confusing the poster with his post. Talk about killing the messenger who brings bad news!
As for the impugning of someone's professional reputation, I think that is a hike too far.
Giok

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 07:56 AM

Lighten up folks, this thread has imparted little of consequence in the last X posts. So much sensitivity! It's like watching bruised egos in brownian motion. Or perhaps not brownian - too random. Why, we know by now that if Y says black, Z is bound to insist on white, and if G momentarily agrees, F is likely to take offence. All of which doesn't help the rest of us poor ignoramuses trying to decipher some crumbs of knowledge from what could have been an informative thread.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 07:42 AM

my remarks re John Brune
Jim Carroll,your still talking gobbkledegook,Because you cant explain how Alex Campbell had a 25 year plus pedigree,as a folksinger,would organisers have booked him again and again[which they did]over 25 years,if he didnt[generallyspeaking] give a good show.
you use double standards,you want Ewan protected,yet you vilify John Brune,call him an arsehole etc.I dont like to see anyone vilified after they are dead.,so please will you stop doing it.Dick Miles
they are clearly aimed at Jim Carroll.
BRYN,My handle is Captain,not Capting.
Jim Carroll is wrong ,if you trawl through all the correspondence,there is much to be learned about MacColl,[including an interesting post from HOOTENANNY about Maccolls prevention of Lisa Turner, singing an american song at the singers club]but very little reference to his real name.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 07:14 AM

Capting

Good job I never did any conveyancing, ain't it ? Apart from Intellectual Property, anything which smacked remotely of Chancery brought me out in a rash.

I repeat : if I had ever overcharged a client, or misadvised one through being remotely under the influence of alcohol, how much longer does anyone think I would have been allowed to continue in practice ?

Let's all stop vilifying the dead - especially Alex Campbell and Ewan McColl.

I posted earlier : who shall we have a go at next ?

I added the 'smiley' to indicate a joke. Went down like a bacon buttie at a Bar Mitzvah.

I think that Jim C had the rights of it in his previous post :

'Where have you ever encountered a serious debate on his singing and his ideas on singing that hasn't been choked up by the weeds of tabloidesque trivia ?'

I have never seen or heard ANY debate on Ewan McColl which has not deteriorated into the 'ethnic' jibe (which I have previously suggested now belongs in the dustbin of history) ; the 'finger in ear' jibe ; the 'what did you do in the war, Ewan' jibe.

These, it seems to me, have become as much cliches as the Clancy brothers' Arran sweaters.

Capting : I had never previously heard of John Brune. and I hope fellow 'Catters will have noticed that I will not pretend a knowledge I have not got.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 06:58 AM

Bryn Pugh,as I said I did know a solicitor ,who should have been strruck off,for selling a pub ,but being too pissed too include the car park in the conveyance.
Jim Carroll,your still talking gobbkledegook,Because you cant explain how Alex Campbell had a 25 year plus pedigree,as a folksinger,would organisers have booked him again and again[which they did]over 25 years,if he didnt[generallyspeaking] give a good show.
you use double standards,you want Ewan protected,yet you vilify John Brune,call him an arsehole etc.I dont like to see anyone vilified after they are dead.,so please will you stop doing it.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 05:44 AM

Winger,

Look up the Law of Libel before you make your next attack on me - I might not be so amiable, next time.

If I had ever overcharged a client or misadvised him through being under the influence of alcohol, how much longer do you think I would have been allowed to practice ?

You have the happy knack of jumping to a conclusion, and then convincing yourself that this is divine revelation.

It might be remembered that I posted that my alcoholism is one reason why I gave up singing, and dancing the Morris, which has been my heart's delight for many years.

If you are still singing, and/or dancing, consider yourself fortunate.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 05:21 AM

Funnily enough I mentioned Derrol Adams earlier, and he also seems to have escaped to opprobrium that Alex gets on the subject of drinking too much.
I have personally driven Derrol round the dives and clubs of Soho after the pubs shut, in order to find him a bottle of whisky, for which he paid well over the correct price, from a strip club.
This was so he could go to sleep, and have something to wake up to. Now that's serious alcoholism, and I had never met up with it that bad before.
I also remember that whoever handled that tour for him [Roy Guest possibly?], told club organisers not to give him the full amount of his fee, just enough to keep him going, and send the rest to the tour organiser. I believe this was as much to stop him giving the money away to someone down on their luck, as to stop him drinking too much. He had a reputation as an extremely generous man.
Anyway he and Alex were bosom buddies, and I'd swap 100 of today's bland and characterless musical whizz kids, to have either of them back.
Giok

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Jm Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 01:57 AM

"Jim Carroll,I am talking about an occassion when Padraig Okeefe,turned up for a paid engagement too pissed to play properly,"
Cap'n,
And I am not talking of a couple of isolated incidents, but of whole careers peppered by occasions of turning up pissed and being unable to perform, and not just Campbell,
Poppycock is a nice comfort-blanket to hide behind if you have no argument.
Nor am I talking of just 'name-change' or the Mudcat Forum regarding a serious discussion of MacColl, nor am I just citing Winger or any other individual. I am talking about a career spanning over half a century.
Where have you ever encountered a serious debate of his singing and his ideas on singing that hasn't been choked up by the weeds of tabloidese trivia?
I repeat my question - is MacColl to be included on the R.I.P. list?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Winger
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 10:54 PM

Thanks, Capn'n, quoting those statistics might help to extinguish the persecution complex exhibited by those who refuse to allow any discussion about MacColl that goes beyond his singing.

I have never criticized him for changing his name; neither have I mocked him for cupping his hand over his ear.

What I did ask about was his pre-folk revival years; in particular about the World War II years. I've learned a little about that from the discussions on Mudcat but I will continue to seek more knowledge about it.

Why? Because I'm interested, that's why. I'd like to know how he formed his opinions and who influenced him. There - my hidden agenda has been revealed.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 07:01 PM

I have just read through all the posts,about Ewan.
apart from the thread called Ewan Maccoll real name,[it is mentioned three or four times as you might expect]
his change of name is mentioned about eight to ten times out of nearly 1500 posts,it certainly has not been a hurdle to discussing his creativity.
Jim,if you dont believe me check it out. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 06:05 PM

Similarly, when Robert Zimmerman decides to change his name to Bob Dylan, or when John Pandrich appears as Johnny Handle, quite rightly, nobody bats an eyelid. On the other hand, when Jimmy Miller changes his name to Ewan MacColl, this becomes a matter of major concern, so much so, it becomesa major hurdle to any discussion on his work as a creative artist.
the above is a quote from Jim Carroll,
we have had discussions here on Mudcat about Ewan Maccoll,many people have praised[myself included]his work as songwriter and singer,his helpfulness to others re research,a very very tiny proportion of people mentioned his name change,and I dont recall it being a major hurdle to discussion,on any threads I have been involved in.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: oggie
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 06:01 PM

The dead aren't interested and can't sue. Thus anyone can say what they like, pass on any gossip safe in the knowledge there's no comeback.

I knew Tony Capstick better than Alex or some of the others mentioned (we got memorably pissed on my eighteenth birthday at the Turks Head in Lincoln). Looking back on it now I'm not proud of it, nor the fact that later, when I maybe knew more, I didn't say owt and even bought him a drink. Dredging through my album collection I've listened to some of his (and Alex's) and I think "What a waste" but I, like many others, helped him along the way.

"Tall Poppy Syndrome" is all well and good when your victim can fight back, when they're safely in the ground it smacks of cowardice if you didn't have the nerve to tell it them when they were alive. I didn't and will not speak ill of Tony who was (for me at least) always a lovely man.

Steve

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Gurney
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 04:34 PM

I knew Alex back in the early 70s before I emigrated, and booked him a couple of times, too. He was usually well lubricated by the end of the night, but the quality of his performance seemed (to me) to be more influenced by the pleasure and engagement of the audience than the quantity of spirits he had consumed. If the crowd was with him, he performed well, if they weren't, he drank more and the gig disintegrated.

I stand to be corrected on this. It is based on observation over perhaps 20 gigs.

He was a nice guy, though.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 03:51 PM

Jim Carroll,I am talking about an occassion when Padraig Okeefe,turned up for a paid engagement too pissed to play properly,so your talking gobbledegook.
Tony Hall is the gentlest person I know on the folkscene,to those of us who know him,your comments are laughable.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 03:00 PM

Cap'n,
If Pádraig O'Keefe had been a professional performer constantly turning up for bookings too pissed to play, of course the answer is yes. As it is, that wasn't the case, so what he did in his own time was his own business.
There are a number of things to remember here.
First, as I mentioned earlier, I don't think it does traditional music or song any good for a performer to turn up unable to perform. I do not blame Campbell for this; as has been pointed out by you and others, alcoholism is an illness and should be regarded as such. But its is the responsibility of club organisers to make sure, as far as possible, that the people they book are able to perform adequately.
The organisers also bear a responsibility towards the performer. It does nobody any favours to put a performer in a position of being publicly humiliated. Like Folkiedave, I can remember the "Let's go and watch Campbell fall about the stage; it should be good for a laugh", school of non-thought.
A musician who was arguably one of the greatest exponents of Irish traditional music within living memory, had a 'drink problem'; so much so that whenever we, as club organisers, heard he was doing a tour, we always attempted to find out the current 'drink situation' before we agreed to book him. Even with the most careful planning, things went awry, mainly thanks to audience members sending up glasses of whisky when he was on stage. The last time we booked him he turned up virtually sober, an hour early with his son, who then filled the next sixty minutes replenishing his whisky glass. When we asked him to come up and play, his son chirped up "surely we have time for another couple of drinks, don't we dad?" The end result was your man was too pissed to strap on his pipes, never mind play. My abiding last memory was of him making a total fool of himself on stage – what a ******* waste!
I am constantly struck by the double standards which seem to be a permanent feature of today's folk scene.
Earlier in this thread I asked about MacColl's inclusion in the R.I.P. list. Admittedly I didn't, expect an answer and so I wasn't disappointed when I didn't get one; I can only assume that the question only covers performers admired by the questioner.
Similarly, when Robert Zimmerman decides to change his name to Bob Dylan, or when John Pandrich appears as Johnny Handle, quite rightly, nobody bats an eyelid. On the other hand, when Jimmy Miller changes his name to Ewan MacColl, this becomes a matter of major concern, so much so, it becomesa major hurdle to any discussion on his work as a creative artist.
When MacColl, along with Lloyd and others, adopted the centuries (probably millennia) old, world wide technique of cupping the hand over the ear in order to stay in tune, (the Watersons used both hands) it lead to descriptions such as can be found in a fairly recently published bit of fanzine type writing (Irish Folk, Trad and Blues, Colin Harper and Trevor Hodgett); "Grand Wizard was an earnest, ear-fingering socialist called Ewan MacColl".
The term 'finger-in-ear' has become a general term of abuse aimed at anybody who has the temerity to take traditional music seriously (for a wonderful example see Tony Hall's piece of divisive viciousness in the current issue of The Living Tradition. I have to say I'm not really surprised at Hall, though I am somewhat dismayed that the editor should think such shite worth including).
There is nothing whatever wrong, as far as I'm concerned, with discussing the contribution, good or bad, people have made down the years to traditional music; Campbell, MacColl, Kennedy, Lomax, whoever. However, the creation of sacred cows and no-go areas do no good to the music and are, in the long run, an insult to their memories.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 02:52 PM

Nothing wrong with Timothy, Hanged for something he didn't do.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Winger
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 01:57 PM

Mr Pugh,

While Alex Campbell may have sent a few dozen folk club members home somewhat disgruntled by performing while under the influence, it doesn't seem to bother you that you may have charged some poor client a packet for performing your legal duties while rat-arsed.

How are ya, Timothy Evans?

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 11:48 AM

Worms?

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 11:25 AM

Were there carrots ?

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 10:58 AM

"I could mention other performers,one who puked up,all over the first row of the Marquis Of Clanricade Folk club,while playing the Banjo,"

Captain, would that be the Marquis of Clanricarde in Sussex Gardens, W2?

I used to drink there; I frequently got rather drunk; I played the banjo .... no, couldn't be!

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 09:03 AM

He turned professional in 1955 Cap'n, so you are correct. He busked in the streets of Paris around 1956 with Derrol Adams, Joe Locker, Martin Winsor, Davy Graham and others.
I believe that a certain Lionel Bart was reputed to be one of that company in those early days. Jack Elliot too was around Paris in those days.

You can't deny a pedigree like that folks.

Giok

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 08:47 AM

Jim Carroll.
I could mention other performers,one who puked up,all over the first row of the Marquis Of Clanricade Folk club,while playing the Banjo,
Or the famous Irish piper,who spent all day in his bed,didnt eat for days,and when he did eat,Made a concoction of Vodka AND Onions which he called Scald,and drank excessive whisky,we dont rubbish this mans collecting or his playing, because in later life he had a drink problem.
Jim,having read many of your posts,I am not surprised you didnt appreciate Alex Campbell.Ithought he was hilarious.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,redmax
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 08:29 AM

Let's have a thread entitled: "A.L. Lloyd, the meddling phoney". After that, Gandhi, perhaps concluding with Mother Theresa

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 08:24 AM

Capting

I'm delighted to hear it.

You don't do 'tongue-in-cheek', do you :-)

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 08:22 AM

apologies ,Jim,should be a fullstop after career.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 08:20 AM

Bryn, I am not blackguarding you,I have sympathy with anyone with this disease,I believe once someone has recognised their problem,that is the first obstacle overcome.
I agree with Don Thompson.
Alex Campbell was born in 1925 started his professional singing career[1955[thats my guess] could be earlier [1953],he had a career of between 25 and thirty years.,as my memory serves me,it was the last seven years of his career,that his drink problem ,affected his playing and singing.
No one on this forum can tell me that a performer can have a lifespan of 25 years plus, and be consistently doing poor gigs,anyone that says so is talking rubbish.
so now can we get Alex Campbell ,and his drinking problem in its correct proportion,the majority of Alex Campbells gigs were not affected by his illness,if they were he would not have had such a long and successful career
Jim Carroll.
so do you apply these same standards to Padraig O Keefe,another performer who occasionally was the worse for drink,and whose playing in his later years,on occasions was affected by his drinking. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 06:32 AM

You needn't bother, Giok - I went into the 'Eat some Worms' thread, and the penny has dropped :-D

And in answer, yes, bloody scrumptious - 'specially with a bit of humble pie ;-D

Who shall we have a go at next, kids ?

Suggestions on a postcard or under plain wrapper to the House at Pooh Corner

Brynnie-the-Pugh

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 05:31 AM

What ?

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 05:03 AM

Nice plate of worms Bryn? ☺ ☻
Giok

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 04:56 AM

At risk of thread-creep I did of course take fees whilst alcoholic- it doesn't go away, you know.

To use a well-worn metaphor : once I had crossed the invisible line between heavy drinking and alcoholism, there was no way back. Once a cucumber has become a pickled gherkin,it cannot be transformed back into a cucumber.

Not every alcoholic is a drinking alcoholic.

My original point was that some people blackguarded Ewan McColl having never met the man.

Some people blackguarded Alex Campbell for being a piss-head.

Every fucker is blackguarding me for making the comparison :-)

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 04:45 AM

I made my point about Alex Campbell on another thread regarding the part he played at the John Snow meeting, and I had no intentions of adding anything, but there seems to have been a point overlooked here.
His singing was not to my taste, but that's beside the point.
I saw him on two occasions, in Manchester at the MSG. On both of those he was pissed out of his skull, on one, projectile vomit pissed.
No matter what I thought of him as a singer, nor whatever sympathy I had for his drink problem, (and I've seen that problem in friends) I really believe that the music I have been listening to for most of my life is worth more than that.
Sorry
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 12:37 AM

The Chaser - a bunch of Aussie guys with all the sanity of Monty Python, recently did a song where they were trying to make the point that no matter what sort of lying arsehole someone had been, you can't speak ill of the dead. So they did.

Made National TV for days...

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 05:18 PM

Alex Campbell was one of the major influences in my life, where music is concerned, and thankfully somewhat less of an influence in terms of the consumption of quantities of beer.

The abiding memory I have of the man is the effect he had on my tendency to over embellish everything. It was a stunning revelation that one could simply stand up and sing a very simple melody, with little, or even no, accompaniment, and sound absolutely wonderful.

Of course there were good nights and bad, though the latter were only taking place over a comparatively short later section of his career.

I had the pleasure of booking him on at least five occasions, of which only one was of dubious quality (and that only for the last twenty minutes). Needless to say all five sold out and nobody present ever suggested that booking him was a mistake.

I knew, as did every organiser, of his reputation for unreliability, but I'm grateful that I was arrogant enough to ignore all warnings, and I had some wonderful evenings as a result.

God rest him
Don T.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 01:28 PM

I dunno about speaking ill of the dead -- I guess it depends on who it is -- but around my part of the jungle people often speak in rather dead tones of the ill.

A

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 01:11 PM

Well, I've just been right through the catalogue of Castle Records on the site of the troubled Sanctuary group. Some great stuff there - the early Status Quo compilations that Alan Lancaster is litigating, a vault of stuff produced by the legendary Joe Meek, a double album of Billy Fury stuff including sessions he did for radio Luxembourg, and mirabile dictu the Downliners Sect first album. And a lot of Renbourn, Jansch, Korner, some Davy Graham. 776 CDs listed. No Young Tradition.

Off to try the other link now.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Wesley S
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 01:09 PM

"I expect the truth is that some can and some can't."

Very true - in this matter like many others - people need to be viewed as individuals. When you start making blanket statements you're bound to make a mistake. But I can say that making an ass of yourself on stage could be just what an alcoholic needs to start the recovery process. Many of them need to "hit bottom" before they can start the long crawl up out of the gutter.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Winger
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 01:06 PM

Jeri,

I assume you don't have much experience of folk clubs - particularly during the 60s and 70s.

It was the last place anyone with a drink problem should have been. Some survived it but some didn't.

As for "it should be easy for an alcoholic to refrain from drinking for the few hours they're on stage." Alcoholism comes in different degrees, and people have different personality types. If it was that easy maybe Alex really could have been a millionaire.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 12:47 PM

What I got from reading Bryn Pugh's post was that you can be a drinking alcoholic and avoid being drunk during a paid gig. Making a professionally bad decision is a totally different thing than having an illness.

Of course, I'm not an alcoholic, so it seems like it should be easy for an alcoholic to refrain from drinking for the few hours they're on stage. I might be quite wrong. I expect the truth is that some can and some can't, and some can drink just enough to give in to the need and not be stupid-drunk.

For some, a performer being that drunk won't be a problem. For me, it probably would. I'd listen to recordings and respect the person for their musical knowledge and abilities, but I'd avoid their gigs.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 12:46 PM

what a coincidence ,my stepfather was a lawyer,he certainly took fees and was practising,during the time he was an alcoholic.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 12:38 PM

no Bryn,
Those of us who have had close relatives who were Alcoholics,my mother and stepfather were,have a very good understanding of what it is about,and have suffered the consequences of seeing those we have loved, destroyed by this disease.
I remember my mother before she became an alcoholic,a person who was very positive,who graduated from the Royal Academy of Art,who cared about trying to wrong the ills in our society[we have to remember the positive sides of people,Remember them at their best]

Alex Campbell,did his bit,went on CND marches etc,he had an illness[alcoholism]during the later part of his career,but the majority of his gigs were good.
can we remember him for the majority of his gigs?,he did a hell of a lot of gigs,made a lot of recordings and was overall [IMO] a good ambassador for folk music.
please lets not remember him for his illness.after all we dont remember Woody Guthrie for having Huntingtons Chorea,but for his songs,can we be even handed.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Winger
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 12:21 PM

Alex Campbell was a professional singer, i.e., he relied on performing to earn his living and to support his family. Would you have preferred, Mr. Pugh, that he would have quit singing during his drinking years and taken up another occupation - as a lawyer perhaps?

Are you telling me that you never took fees for legal work while you were (are) an alcoholic?

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 11:31 AM

I made the original posting, Goddess be kind to me, because it seemed to me that a number of people allegedly repeated scurrility about Ewan McColl when it was patent that said people had never met Ewan McColl.

I have heard people say 'Alex Campbell is on at Folk Club tonight. He;'ll be pissed out of his head so we'll have a good laugh'.

I have treasured memories of Alex Campbell.

As an alcoholic myself, in recovery just for today, I think I have a better understanding than those of you who are not alcoholic.

That said : there might well have been other people at Folk Club who knew Alex by reputation as a talented performer. Waht must they have thought when a shambling drunk who couldn't sing two consecutive verses of a song tookj the stage?

And before anyone who is not alcoholic weighs in - been there, done that, given the tee-shirt to the jumble sale - but never, never on stage whilst being paid a fee for singing.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 11:02 AM

somone said he was an alcoholic,lets sort this out.
He may have become an alcoholic,at one time he was just a social drinker,this is what happens to a lot of alcoholics.
Alex Campbell, was someone who gave alot of people pleasure.for a relatively short period of his life he had an illness, alcoholism,can we not remember him for all the pleasure he gave,and his music,rather than his illness.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Betsy
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 10:50 AM

I believe one can, on very special occasions speak ill of the dead. Hitler , Mussolini, some would say Franco, and other people considered considered to have been despots - leading their populations into war and all the associated horrors.
To speal ill of people who on occasions displayed frailties in their lives, but, overall attempted (and in most part succeeded) in bringing some enjoyment fun and pleasure to their audiences is a complete abhoration.
I have fond memories of Alex - the first time I saw him (obviously when I didn't know him ) the audience was eating out of his hand.
Years later (he was drinking a non-alcohlic wine ) we had a great long yarn for hours , at an agents house in the Midlands ,and he was a goldmine of information, stories, humour and song. Oh Yes !! - larger than life, a few tall stories , but a lovely man and as someone said earlier , a real character , the type of which, the sanitised folk scene is now sadly lacking.
RIP Alex.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: My guru always said
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 08:36 AM

Richard, I used to have a CD which featured both of those 'Pratchett' songs on it. Lent it to another Catter a few years ago & don't suppose I'll ever see it again *sob*

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 08:34 AM

Well I liked YT as group that's for certain.
G

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 08:28 AM

Richard, per Heather's website, "Castle Communications in England has re-released the first two Young Tradition albums on CD." They, along with some other tasty recordings, are available from Grass Roots Productions. (Appears to be Heather's)

As to the actual subject (don't look so shocked), there's none can judge what interferes with enjoying a performance for anyone but themselves. Some people find a singer's politics makes them cringe, others don't like a singers appearance, religion, addictions or any number of things.

A good friend once talked to me of the hazards of being known for anything above the music. When some walk into a room, people think, "Here he is - I hear he's a wonderful musician." Others walk in the room and people think, "So this is the drunk? The misogynist? The racist?" There is a very great danger that someone can find their reputation dominated by rumors and incidents magnified in the tabloid brains of a mob looking for any weakness.

For the listener, we must recognize everyone has weaknesses. If we can take in what we enjoy and ignore the rest, we're better off. Sometimes we can't do that. It's just a personal thing, and it does absolutely no good to tell someone to change their mind and either ignore a performer's shortcomings or be as offended as you. We just have to focus on what we love.

...unless what we love is telling other people what their opinions should be.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Emma B
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 07:23 AM

Heather sang at one of the concerts at the greatly lamented "National" Festival at Sutton Bonnington some years ago. It was lovely to hear her again.

I have fond memories of meeting the YT and taking them out to an Indian reataurant before they were performing at our local folk club back in the mists of time.