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BS: migrant workers

The Sandman 23 Oct 07 - 01:01 PM
Goose Gander 23 Oct 07 - 02:21 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 23 Oct 07 - 02:44 PM
Rapparee 23 Oct 07 - 02:51 PM
Riginslinger 23 Oct 07 - 04:26 PM
artbrooks 23 Oct 07 - 04:42 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 23 Oct 07 - 05:37 PM
Bill D 23 Oct 07 - 06:01 PM
Riginslinger 23 Oct 07 - 06:19 PM
Richard Bridge 23 Oct 07 - 06:26 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Oct 07 - 07:06 PM
Riginslinger 23 Oct 07 - 07:27 PM
Ron Davies 23 Oct 07 - 11:56 PM
Riginslinger 24 Oct 07 - 08:36 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Oct 07 - 08:57 AM
Riginslinger 24 Oct 07 - 10:26 AM
Goose Gander 24 Oct 07 - 11:57 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Oct 07 - 01:19 PM
Riginslinger 24 Oct 07 - 01:54 PM
Riginslinger 24 Oct 07 - 02:59 PM
artbrooks 24 Oct 07 - 03:02 PM
Goose Gander 24 Oct 07 - 03:21 PM
Riginslinger 24 Oct 07 - 04:17 PM
Ron Davies 25 Oct 07 - 07:20 AM
Riginslinger 25 Oct 07 - 07:35 AM
GUEST,Bardan 25 Oct 07 - 09:43 AM
Paco Rabanne 25 Oct 07 - 10:07 AM
Riginslinger 25 Oct 07 - 11:20 AM
Big Mick 25 Oct 07 - 11:42 AM
Riginslinger 25 Oct 07 - 12:01 PM
Big Phil 25 Oct 07 - 12:13 PM
Goose Gander 25 Oct 07 - 12:45 PM
Riginslinger 25 Oct 07 - 01:07 PM
GUEST,Bardan 25 Oct 07 - 01:50 PM
Ron Davies 26 Oct 07 - 07:31 AM
Goose Gander 26 Oct 07 - 11:58 AM
Ron Davies 26 Oct 07 - 02:06 PM
Ron Davies 26 Oct 07 - 02:10 PM
Riginslinger 26 Oct 07 - 02:24 PM
artbrooks 26 Oct 07 - 02:34 PM
Goose Gander 26 Oct 07 - 02:46 PM
Ron Davies 26 Oct 07 - 04:32 PM
Ron Davies 26 Oct 07 - 05:17 PM

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Subject: BS: migrant workers
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 01:01 PM

Many migrants who have come to Ireland,send money home to their families,this must have an anti inflationary affect,as they are taking money out of circulation,but presumably has the opposite effect on their native economy.
is their any evidence,that this combined,with shortages of labour in their native lands is causing serious economic problems,in their homelands.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Goose Gander
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 02:21 PM

The same thing happens in the United States. These payments, called remitances, are a major source of income for Mexico and other Latin American countries. Generally, I think these payments are a boon to the migrants' homelands, but I have to believe that in the long run the loss of productive labor will harm the economic development of these countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 02:44 PM

In spite of rantings by Lou Dobbs and his ilk, there is shortage of labor in many industrialized countries including the U.S and Canada.
Many of our doctors and medical workers here in western Canada are immigrants. Not only are the countries that provide these immigrants losing productive laborers, as Michael Morris says, but they are also losing their professionally skilled people.

Yes, collectively the immigrants, permanent or temporary, are sending large sums home, but they are also spending large parts of their income on the necessities and extras of life in their new homelands.
Growth of the economies is the result.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 02:51 PM

And where would England be if it didn't have Canada, etc. as a place to send the "other" sons?

The Rhyme of the Remittance Man
          Robert Service

There's a four-pronged buck a-swinging in the shadow of my cabin,
And it roamed the velvet valley till to-day;
But I tracked it by the river, and I trailed it in the cover,
And I killed it on the mountain miles away.
Now I've had my lazy supper, and the level sun is gleaming
On the water where the silver salmon play;
And I light my little corn-cob, and I linger, softly dreaming,
In the twilight, of a land that's far away.

Far away, so faint and far, is flaming London, fevered Paris,
That I fancy I have gained another star;
Far away the din and hurry, far away the sin and worry,
Far away -- God knows they cannot be too far.
Gilded galley-slaves of Mammon -- how my purse-proud brothers taunt me!
I might have been as well-to-do as they
Had I clutched like them my chances, learned their wisdom, crushed my fancies,
Starved my soul and gone to business every day.

Well, the cherry bends with blossom and the vivid grass is springing,
And the star-like lily nestles in the green;
And the frogs their joys are singing, and my heart in tune is ringing,
And it doesn't matter what I might have been.
While above the scented pine-gloom, piling heights of golden glory,
The sun-god paints his canvas in the west,
I can couch me deep in clover, I can listen to the story
Of the lazy, lapping water -- it is best.

While the trout leaps in the river, and the blue grouse thrills the cover,
And the frozen snow betrays the panther's track,
And the robin greets the dayspring with the rapture of a lover,
I am happy, and I'll nevermore go back.
For I know I'd just be longing for the little old log cabin,
With the morning-glory clinging to the door,
Till I loathed the city places, cursed the care on all the faces,
Turned my back on lazar London evermore.

So send me far from Lombard Street, and write me down a failure;
Put a little in my purse and leave me free.
Say: "He turned from Fortune's offering to follow up a pale lure,
He is one of us no longer -- let him be."
I am one of you no longer; by the trails my feet have broken,
The dizzy peaks I've scaled, the camp-fire's glow;
By the lonely seas I've sailed in -- yea, the final word is spoken,
I am signed and sealed to nature. Be it so.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 04:26 PM

"...is their any evidence,that ... shortages of labour in their native lands is causing serious economic problems,in their homelands."


                In the case of some Latin American countries, there isn't much of anything for people to do in their homelands, so a shortage of labor isn't really a problem. A shortage of people isn't a problem either, and that becomes a problem for the entire planet.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 04:42 PM

A serious labor problem is developing in some parts of Mexico, since a very large percentage of the adult population is living and working in the US, and the remittances they send back are far larger than people can earn locally. I heard recently that there are so many Salvadorans in the US that the country has instituted a guest worker program aimed at Hondurans so that they can get their crops harvested.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 05:37 PM

People all over are moving to find better wages or a better life. Qatar and the other booming Emirates depend on immigrant labor to the extent that they would grind to a halt without it.

Even years ago Salvadoreans were coming- At a restaurant in a large southern city I got to talking with the man opening oysters. He was Salvadorean. I would like to know what happened to him, but probably he and his family are living in the States and running their own restaurant.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 06:01 PM

I'm sure some migrant labor is needed here, but I see video of immigrants standing on street corners, waiting for folks like contractors to stop by and offer maybe 3 out of a group of 20 a couples day's work.

Interviews report that they are lucky to get work 2-3 days a week. The system as it is is seriously flawed...and Lou Dobbs 'ranting' has more than a dollop of truth.
   If we need labor, let it be advertised...even if it's only a general estimate, and let there be a system to **REGISTER** those who wish to work, and let the work that is really available be divided as equitably as possible and legal, safe transportation be provided, instead of fence jumping and desert crawling and deaths and guards.

No matter WHAT your 'moral' position is, we cannot absorb everyone from Mexico & Central America who 'hopes' they can do slightly better here than at home. And no matter how much the economies of certain areas are being infused with cash from illegals, they are also LOSING taxes and spending excessive amounts on schools, health care and other services. The hospital closest to me has a serious problem treating folks in the emergency room, and has begun a series of restriction, just so they can serve local citizens.

   We simply cannot let the flow be regulated purely by those who WANT to come here.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 06:19 PM

In reality, "Lou Dobb's ranting" is absolutely factual.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 06:26 PM

Projections in the UK are of massive population growth to the early 2020s, fuelled about 50/50 by births here (and decline in deaths, fat chance of that in our hospitals) and by net immigration.

Too many damned people!


Maybe that is what MRSA and C Diff are trying to tell us - that we need a new Black Death or world war to get the numbers of people under control again.

Hey, maybe the Shrub really does have a master plan??????????


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 07:06 PM

Plenty of stories about problems in Poland arising from the emigration of many young Poles to Western Europe, and its knock on effects. For example.

I hope things get better back in Poland and other places so that most of them can go back home after a few years - that would be our loss in places like England, because they're a great addition to the community; but emigration can be a terrible thing for a country and for families, as it was for so many generations in Ireland.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 07:27 PM

Ireland and Poland (as least since the end of the Soviet Union) are both Catholic countries. I wonder if there's a connection here?


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 11:56 PM

What's interesting about your Service poem, Rapaire, is that it seems to have a similar moral as "Linden Lea":


Within the woodlands flow'ry gladed
By the oak trees' mossy moot
The shining grass blades, timber shaded
Now do quiver underfoot
And birds do whistle overhead
And water's bubbling in the bed
And there for me
The apple tree
Do lean down low in Linden Lea
When leaves, that lately were a-springing
Now do fade within the copse
And painted birds do hush their singing
Up upon the timber tops
And brown leaved fruit's a-turning red
In cloudless sunshine overhead
With fruit for me, the apple tree
Do lean down low in Linden Lea.
Let other folk make money faster
In the air of dark-room'd towns
I don't dread a peevish master
Though no man may heed my frowns
I be free to go abroad
Or take again my homeward road
To where for me
The apple tree
Do lean down low in Linden Lea"

Especially: "Let other folk make money faster
In the air of dark-room'd towns"

This poem, as our UK "Catters know, has a wonderful setting by Vaughn Williams, by the way. And the poet finds satisfaction-- in the natural world-- without in fact leaving England.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 08:36 AM

"A serious labor problem is developing in some parts of Mexico,"


                I think it would make sense to redefine the problem. How can countries be experiencing labor shortages now, when a couple of decades back, unemployment was the problem, and now they have more people. It seems to me that "labor shortages" are simply a symptom of something else, and that is the "free market" model that demands ever growing markets, for ever growing populations. And that in turn requires an ever growing demand on resources world wide.

                Personally, I don't think any of this is a really good idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 08:57 AM

If all the people with particular skills emigrate that means there's going to be a shortage of people with those skills - a labour shortage in other words. Even if there are still other people out of work who haven't had the chance to acquire those skills.

Plus, of course, it's perfectly possible to have a bigger population with a smaller work force, if the increase is largely made up of people who aren't of working age.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 10:26 AM

"Plus, of course, it's perfectly possible to have a bigger population with a smaller work force, if the increase is largely made up of people who aren't of working age."


               It might be possible in theory, but that's not what's happening. In the US we have farmers continuing to complain about needing workers, when in reality, they either need to change what they're growing, or mechanize their operations. All of these extra people cause markets and demands to grow, that will continue until we've consumed the planet.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Goose Gander
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 11:57 AM

"All of these extra people cause markets and demands to grow, that will continue until we've consumed the planet."

Riginslinger -

The planet was here long before us, and it will be here long after we're all gone.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 01:19 PM

Beam me up, Scotty.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 01:54 PM

"The planet was here long before us, and it will be here long after we're all gone."


                I guess there's no point in trying to save it then, huh?


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 02:59 PM

Evil Poles? North and South Poles, or some other poles, and why would they, or would they not pay taxes?

b


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 03:02 PM

Mexico has rarely had an unemployment problem in recent decades. At least, not as "unemployment" is normally defined, as an excess of workers for available jobs. Rather, there have been few or no jobs available for the willing workers. A subtle difference, but a real one. Mexican (and other) workers have migrated to the US because jobs are available here, not because they have any overwhelming desire to live here permanently. If the latter were true, they would be importing their families (not that some aren't) rather than sending money home for their support.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Goose Gander
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 03:21 PM

The planet is fine, the people are messed up - thus spake the prophet George Carlin.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 04:17 PM

"Mexican (and other) workers have migrated to the US because jobs are available here,..."


               The jobs are only available if there are crooks willing to hire them.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 07:20 AM

Rig--

Somehow I get the impression we've been through this before. Plus ca change...

As has been said before, as long as Mexicans perceive the jobs they can get in the US are better than those at home, they will come here. Your proposed solution of severely punishing the employers will do nothing but hurt the US economy. Already, for instance, some growers are moving operations to Mexico. And your idea of mechanizing the work is totally impractical. Your other suggestion of dropping the work entirely will not help the poor, you may note. And exactly which industries would you like to eliminate--construction, hotels, farming? All use Mexican labor at this point.

Yet again--the old broken record--the only solution is to expand legal immigration -- coupling that to a substantial rise in the minimum wage--probably more than is now in the pipeline--- so that all workers at the bottom of the pile can benefit.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 07:35 AM

"Your proposed solution of severely punishing the employers will do nothing but hurt the US economy."


                At this juncture, I think the whole argument is mute. The deteriorating US economy is rapidly taking care of the problem. The concept of new hires in construction, for instance, is absolutely laughable.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 09:43 AM

I believe part of the problem in countries where a large ammount of the population emigrates is a vicious circle that forms under such conditions. Lots of people see better wages etc abroad so the emigrate. They are no longer in the workforce so temporarily they cut unemployment. Problem is they can't create jobs either and all their production is lost from the economy. So basically as time goes by the country will become more and more dependant on money from abroad because none of its industries are growing even while the population is. In addition people will be less and less tempted by local wage levels as the foreign economies will be growing therefore wages and prices probably rising.

Now, in a place like Ireland, once they reversed the trend they were in a very good situation. Because they'd had a brain drain for years, they'd been doing everything they could to get people to university in order to have enough doctors engineers etc. When all the qualified emigrants came back- (also those who'd trained up while abroad), they ended up with a highly trained work force a lot of whom had money to invest in companies etc.

The fact that lots of Poles came over to work in the construction industry recently shows that the old stereotype of the Irishman with the hod isn't necessarily true. (Although in fairness the Irish construction industry has mushroomed to a stupid size and is due a serious knock as soon as house prices drop I think.) Maybe alleviated if the government actually tries to get schools and roads built for all the new housing areas that have bugger all except houses in them.

Sorry, drifting ever more off-topic. I'll stop now while the complete bollocks level is only marginally higher than the informed statement level.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 10:07 AM

I work in the Construction Industry, and we employ a hell of a lot of Poles (at Full English payrates incidentally) because we simply can't get enough English bricklayers/joiners etc.
Every man jack of them is polite, courteous, hard working, and most speak better English than I do.
My new NHS dentist is Polish too.Three of them set up a practise near us thank God!None of my family have had an NHS dentist for years since all the English greedy bastards went private!!
                        Up the poles!
                   (oo- er that sounds rude)


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 11:20 AM

In the states we employ Latin Americans in the construction industry, but here they are normally paid wages much lower than the native born Americans are used to earning. That generates a number of problems. It will give rise to a number of sore tempers, I think, as things slow down.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 11:42 AM

An awful lot of over simplistic chatter here.

In order to understand the construction industry here in the States, first you have to break it down into its segments. The commercial construction industry still has a high degree of unionization (comparatively) thus its wages are higher. The residential construction industry, in most parts of the country, is, and has been, largely unorganized for years. The wages have always been lower, and a lot of the work has been on a cash basis. This is where the majority of the abuse comes. There was a time when undocumented Irish folks came over, and if they needed a job they would work in construction. Today it is Hispanic, and we are starting to see a lot of Eastern Europeans.

This idea that this is a new problem, or somehow it is worse now than before, IMO, is hogwash. For years in the packing house industry, there have been workers with counterfeit papers. And these are high paying union jobs. There is an employer in Northwest rural Iowa with a large plant. About a year ago they decided that to get a job there, you had to speak English. These are some of the highest paying jobs in the area. Guess what? In about three months they had to drop this stupid idea. Couldn't get enough workers.

This is about race. Pure and simple. Immigrants built this country. And they have always been, in significant measure, undocumented. The language piece is a red herring as well. Go through any large city and look at the signage in the old neighborhoods. You will be able to tell, block by block, the various immigrants that have lived there. Within a generation, they all spoke English, just as is happening with the Spanish speakers. It is the language of commerce. White, middle class, America is feeling threatened because they have forgotten what this country has been about since the beginning. It is about folks that want a different way of life, and want to do better for themselves and their families. That is the dream, faulty as it can be at times, that draws people here.

The difference now is that these immigrants are brown skinned, and from a group that we have typically stereotyped in less than flattering terms.

Disgusting.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 12:01 PM

Mick,

          The immigrant problem has nothing to do with race. It has to do with livability and sustaining resources.

          Sorry!


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Big Phil
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 12:13 PM

Great Britain will soon be sinking below the waves we have that many migrant workers here now. Many also bring their families with them and it is having a detrimental effect on Schools, the NHS and in many areas housing. What makes the problem even worse, if these migrants are from a EU country, we cannot stop even more coming, nor can we send any back. EU law forbids it. Well done NEW labour.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Goose Gander
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 12:45 PM

Mick -

The immigration debate is awash is sloganeering and jingoism - agreed! However, neither side holds a monopoly on "simple-minded chatter."

A few points:

Yes, immigration promotes economic growth in the United States, and immigrants are a crucial labor source in many industries. I'm less certain that the loss of entire generations of productive labor are a boon to Mexico and other Latin American countries.

The United States is now a welfare state, something it was not during previous waves of immigration. Contractors and others hiring undocumented immigrants are able to pass on the social costs of this population (education, healthcare, law enforcement, infastructure, etc.) to state, local and federal governments. There's no free lunch, someone has to pay for all of this.

I've come to believe that our current system is something like a gentleman's agreement between elites on both sides of the border -'they' are able to export surplus population, forestalling necessary reforms indefinately; immigrants who make it across alive (over deserts and mountains, paying thousands of dollars to 'coyotes') are allowed (for the most part) to stay and work for depressed wages. There's more than a whiff of social darwinism about the whole arrangement.

Finally, your assertion that an entire side of this debate is motivated purely by issues of race is an ad homininum argument writ large. Name-calling does not help to advance this debate.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 01:07 PM

"-'they' are able to export surplus population, forestalling necessary reforms indefinately"

             That's a very important point. In the last Mexican election, the man of the people, Lopez Obador(sp?), came very close to winning. He might, in fact, have won if 10 to 12 million of his supporters hadn't been out of country.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 01:50 PM

Des Bishop had a great thing in one of his stand up routines. It was something like

I've a friend who's a plumber. The other day I rang him and he started going on about the 'fucking poles'.

"What's wrong with them?" I said

"They won't stop bloody working!"


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 07:31 AM

Michael--

Mick is correct. And his arguments are not ad hominem. He has accused no specific person of racism. If you don't think the shoe fits, don't put it on.

Added to which: "social costs of this population"---at this point there are many illegal immigrants who pay into Social Security--and as long as they are illegal will never see any benefits from it. Also they are not of an age to benefit from it. If you think the illegal immigrants are getting a free lunch, consider what the US would be like if all--probably 12 million-- of them disappeared tomorrow. The economy would be vastly different--and it would not be an improvement. The US gets huge benefits from illegals now.

Further, neither MIck nor I--nor anybody else on our side of the debate--including the illegal immigrants themselves--want the illegal immigrant situation to continue as it is. We are in favor of a path leading to citizenship for all illegals--not waving a magic wand to make them citizens--and they would have to get behind all people now going through the citizenship process legally-- but a process including proof of English proficiency and other requirements.

This idea went down in flames in Congress recently--but it's still a good one--far better than building fences between the US and Mexico or requiring all illegal immigrants to return to "country of origin" to apply for US citizenship--or any other idea I've heard from the restrictionists. As I've said before, if I were an illegal I would not come out of the shadows for "touchback"-- I would not trust the US to let me back in.   Would you?

If you are against a process of gradual citizenship for illegals--not requiring "touchback"-- exactly why?

And what is your counterproposal?

I'd sincerely like to hear it--and so would Mick, I suspect.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Goose Gander
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 11:58 AM

First of all, Mick stated, "This is about race. Pure and simple." That would be news to Cesar Chavez and other Latinos who have questioned the wisdom of open borders forever. An absolute statement such as Mick's can easily be intepreted as an insult and blanket condemnation of anyone who doesn't share his views. That's why I called it "ad homininum writ large." Admittedly a clumsy response on my part, but absolute statements tend to invite ham-fisted responses.

The "free lunch" I referred to is being enjoyed by business owners who pay their workers below poverty-level wages and allow state, local and federal government services to pick up the slack. I thought this should have been clear from my post, but perhaps not.

I acknowledged at the start (the first of my four points) that immigrants are an integral part of the US economy. Again, I would have hoped that I made this point clearly enough at the start.

Certainly there should be an orderly process for immigrants to become citizens, I did not and have not ever argued against this.

Now, let's talk about and expand upon some of my comments which you chose not to address:

Immigration is a process - what should be the end result or desired outcome of that process? Like most who debate immigration, you choose to present the phenomenon only in terms of the host country.
Again, I'll ask: What is the long-term affect of mass immigration on Mexico and Central America? Does it make any sense to delay reform indefinately and continually export the 'surplus' population of half a dozen or so soveriegn countries? If there was a slightly more balanced economic relationship between North America and historically Latin America, immigration would flow in both directions.

Appearances to the contrary, Mexico is not a poor country. It has natural resources, a productive population, and a vibrant culture and historical consciousness. The richest man in the world, I'm sure you know, is a Mexican. And yet every year hundred of thousands of its citizens risk their lives (literally) to cross the border. I don't think I'm being insensitive in suggesting that this situation is neither acceptable nor sustainable.

Thanks for your response, gotta go now.

Respectfully,
MM


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 02:06 PM

Michael--

I agree completely with your point that the Mexican economy needs reform. I remember reading--in the Wall St Journal-- that the richest man in the world--name escapes me now--Carlos Slim?--made his money "the old fashioned way-- by monopoly".

And we can learnedly discuss what Mexico ought to do. However if the US tries to put our ideas into practice, we will hear a lot about national sovereignty--especially after our current "leader", the Chickenhawk in Chief, has not exactly been diligent about observing it.

Like it or not, our only leverage is in the US--only here can we influence the issue--through our response. The US reputation, thanks to Mr. Bush, has sunk low enough without our being accused of manipulating foreign economies.

So the question becomes: exactly what do you think the process for citizenship for illegals should be? Are you willing to jettison "touchback"?, for instance, and to not count the act of illegal immigration itself as a crime disqualifying the applicant for citizenship?


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 02:10 PM

But it's certainly good this debate can go on without shrill outbursts. Thanks, Michael. As you probably know, debates on Mudcat can degenerate quickly.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 02:24 PM

"But it's certainly good this debate can go on without shrill outbursts."



                         Like these?


   "Are you willing to jettison "touchback"?, for instance, and to not count the act of illegal immigration itself as a crime..."


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 02:34 PM

Illegal immigration is a civil offense. It is neither a felony nor a misdemeanor, and does not have any legal penalty other than deportation.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Goose Gander
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 02:46 PM

George W. Bush and his gang are war criminals, you'll get no argument from me on that. All I can say for myself is that I never voted for him or supported him in any way. I understand he was pretty close with the last president of Mexico, though.

A process for legalization? Heck, I don't know. I didn't come to here to build a city on a hill, just to bitch and moan about one messed up situation. I will say that the 'touchback' proposal was so ridiculous it must have dreamed up by a 'committee' apointed to 'study the problem'.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 04:32 PM

That president of Mexico was Vicente Fox, I believe. Read about a book he wrote. His term for Bush was "plastic cowboy" or something like that. Stems from a visit Bush made. Fox offered the use of a horse---since he himself is an avid rider. Bush demurred--prefers a 4 x 4. Why don't Texans realize that GWB, among other qualities, is a carpetbagger?--born in the Wild West state of Connecticut, went to Yale, etc.

Ah well, roll on January 2009.

Rig--

If you think "jettison 'touchback' "   and "not count the act of illegal immigration itself as a crime" are anything close to a shrill outburst, you've really got to get out more.


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Subject: RE: BS: migrant workers
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 05:17 PM

Fox's term for Bush was even better than I remembered----"windshield cowboy".


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Mudcat time: 18 May 12:47 AM EDT

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