Anyone watching My Son Jack?

Subject: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 04:55 PM

Or an I the only one multi-tasking?

UK Channel 3 (ITV) at the moment, the story of Jack Kipling, Rudyards son. Starring Daniel (Harry Potter) Radcliffe. Marvelous up to now.

I know how it will end though...


:(

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 04:57 PM

me Dave, very impressed espeically Daniel Radcliffe-keep hearing Pete Bellamy in my head

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 05:13 PM

What a fantastic depiction of the horror of the trenches. They don't need blood and gore. Trench foot and young men crying will do it:-(

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,jorgen
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 05:24 PM

yes, very good!!

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 05:29 PM

I never realised Rudyard Kipling had an American wife btw. Small point but I am now wiser that I was before!

D.

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 05:31 PM

recording as we speak.

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 06:02 PM

Wow. What more can anyone say. I though the BBC did the best dramas but ITV have certainly done the business with this one.

I believe the DVD is now available or you can see some online somewhere around here.

Cheers

D,

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: BB
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 06:24 PM

Superb play. Wish they'd known about Anni F's rendition of the Kipling/Bellamy song - it would have been brilliant in there somewhere. I know I'll never be able to listen to it again without remembering this play.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 06:28 PM

Very worth watching - beautifully shot and impeccably cast. As Dave says above, the true horror of war without blood and gore all over the place as in so many modern productions.
And what a talent in David Haig, I had no idea.

Andy

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 06:30 PM

excellent and written by David Haig who played Kipling -very nice motif at the end when the two men the king and kipling are both together sharing their grief over the loss of sons.

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Alan Day
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 06:30 PM

I rarely if ever comment on TV programmes apart from Folk ones, but this has to be one of the best acted dramas ever.David Haig was without doubt the star of this programme, not only for writing it, but for his acting.
His portrayal of Rudyard Kipling was without doubt an oscar winning
performance.
If this did not bring a tear to your eye and make you consider the horrors of war and family loss then nothing will.
Al

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: John Routledge
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 06:38 PM

What a superb programme. Very moving and informative. Can't say more at the moment than agree with all that has already been posted.

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,Louis.
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 06:42 PM

One of the most "heartbreaking" drama's i've ever seen, deeply
moving...........David Haig should win a BAFTA for this !!!

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,Phil
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 06:48 PM

Admired the father's agony

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 06:56 PM

It was a truly memorable piece of drama, superbly acted by all.

It captured completely the eagerness and almost obscene willingness of young men to go to the Front, and the equally obscene ignorance of 'modern' warfare and enemy capabilities from the authorities of the time.

I'm actually quite glad that no-one thought of adding a Bellamy rendition of Kipling to this drama. It needed nothing else to illustrate how terrified those boys were.

LTS

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 07:27 PM

The song I had in my head as I watched the scene in the trenches wasn't the Bellamy/Kipling one, but Jacques Brel's "La Colombe". I could have wished to watch it without commercial breaks (one of the advantages of BBC productions when viewed on their channels) but we switched off the sound during those unwonted interruptions and did our best to ignore them.

I agree with everything said above - that was one of the finest TV dramas that I have seen in years and a fitting tribute on Remembrance Sunday. Young Radcliffe can act.

There were a few liberties taken in the name of dramatic effect, but it worked. It probably won't do the visitor figures at Batemans (the actual Kipling House used in the film) any harm, either.

I hadn't Kipled recently, but I'm going to bed with his complete works!

Alan

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: John J
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 07:46 PM

I couldn't bring myself to watch it - although I expected it to be as good as the reports above.

JJ

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,lisa
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 04:25 AM

can someone tell me how it ended? i fell asleep 15 mins from the end, but i was really enjoying it!
lisa x

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 05:07 AM

An absolutely fantastic piece of drama.

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 05:17 AM

'can someone tell me how it ended? i fell asleep 15 mins from the end, but i was really enjoying it!
lisa x '

The son was discovered alive. He had had fallen deeply in love with a Steve Knightly lookalike, and they ran away together, and founded a cake empire.

Steve still sings the song Cousin Jack that was handed down through the generations.

Not many people know that.

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,sparticus
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 05:32 AM

I did!

An excellent drama.

It was called "My Boy Jack" by the way!

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 05:46 AM

Lisa - a quick resume of the last 15-20 mins or so.

Jacks' parents spent years going through photographs of soldiers looking for him. They used Rudyards' contacts at Whitehall to gather information from various hospitals, believing he had only been injured. They interviewed what must have been every remaining Irish Guard until finally, in 1919 they found one who had seen him fall. The push over the top in 1915 had seen some of the battalion reach the enemy dugout and heavily defended command post. Jack, armed only with his revolver was last seen running towards this active machine gun and was shot in the leg and shoulder. He dropped and his glasses came off. He groped around in the mud and blood for them, crying in agony. The other Irish Guard was below him in the trench, saw him crawling but could not bring himself to go and help Jack out. Jack regained his feet and attempted again to rush the command post but the machine gun hit him in the chest and he fell there. At confirmation of his death, Rudyard finally admitted to his wife Carrie, that he felt guilty of his son's death, as though he had murdered him.

The last scenes were of Rudyard visiting the King, who greeted him with the comment 'I forgot to time you' as had been his habit. They faced each other and Kipling consoled the King on the loss of his youngest son John (see 'The Lost Prince', by Stephen Poliakoff) who had died recently. Kipling recited a poem - 'Have you seen my boy Jack' which he had written in 1915 when his son was originally posted as missing.

LTS

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 06:12 AM

I prefer my ending.

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: skipy
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 06:13 AM

Superb! Just superb!
I have it on video & will be happy to loan it to anyone who did not get to see it.
Skipy

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 06:16 AM

WLD - I'm sure Rudyard would have preferred that ending too... along with several million other parents.

LTS

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: the button
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 06:17 AM

I only caught the last 15 minutes, because I am a dirty stop-out. However, on the strength of what's been said here, I think I'll get the DVD.

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 07:01 AM

I saw it and in many respects reminded me of the film Gallipoli.

Gallipoli left me absolutely stunned and it was very chilling, about the stupid waste of mens lives in war. It took me a long time to get over that film.

Blackadder over the top (series 4 Blackadder Goes forth) had the same effect on me. Did anybody see that. Totally unexpected and very chilling.


Whilst I enjoyed the play, it didn't affect me like Gallipoli or Blackadder.


My daughter who loves Harry Potter through and through, thought the play was boring becuase it wasn't like Harry Potter :-)

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,Cats
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 07:11 AM

Very moving. Daniel excellent. It is very strange for me to watch as Kipling proposed to my grandmother and she turned him down. He gave her a set of pink pearls from Harrods, which I now have. What if he had married his Quaker love [look for the poems 'for Emma']? This would never have been written.

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: fat B****rd
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 07:21 AM

Excellent drama,enjoyable as well as moving.

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 07:37 AM

Very good programme (what I saw of it) - I had a few Pete Bellamy moments too. First thing on ITV for an age worth watching IMHO.

I do wonder however if Kipling really treated the King like his old mate George (not calling him Sir, etc)? I would have thought RK was a stickler for protocol and all that.   

I channel hopped a bit last night because there was an outstanding programme about Wilfred Owen over on the BBC, introduced, quite surprisingly, by Jeremy Paxman. Paxo came over very sympathetically - more to him than just skewering politicians on Newsnight.

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 11:27 AM

I think it worth pointing out that 'Rudyard' nearly rhymes with 'woodyard' and almost exactly with 'study hard' - although not so much with 'stud yard'. Just in case anyone is writing a song about it..

Paxman would have fitted in quite well in the first world war:-

None of you know the capital of Venezuela! Incredible!......Right! picture round....starter for ten, which projectile is sized 303 coming this way in large quantities and reputedly has ones name written on it? You have to buzz!

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 12:14 PM

Your starter for 10, Mudcat - which famous British author is the only bloke named after a lake and an almond slice? Come on, no conferring....Sorry, that's it, you lose Alsace and Lorraine.

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,Deb
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 01:30 PM

Me too, very overwhelming and extremely moving. Deb

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 03:15 PM

Would this be the same Rudyard Kipling who encouraged thousands of young men to go off to be slaughtered one of the most obscene wars in history, then changed his mind when his son was killed.
A tragic way to learn a lesson.
Sorry, never understood the Kipling bit.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: fat B****rd
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 03:25 PM

Do you like Kipling ??

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,sparticus
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 03:28 PM

Didn't like the books but love the cakes. They are exceedingly good!

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 03:31 PM

He wrote exceedingly good short stories and poems
I loved the film The Man who would be King and the poem Danny Deever.

But yeh Jim (total agreement!), he was a prat. not an isolated prat - Oscar Wilde was very gung ho for the Boer War. It was obviously a mindset that was around at the time.


I used to go past the statue of Lord Roberts (who featured in the play) every day in Exeter, and not really know anything about him.

It was a bravura performance by David Haigh, but I felt rather the same qualifications about being overwhelmed, as you did Jim.

A bit like Milton on divorce - he was dead against it, til he found himself married to someone he didn't like. People like that DO tend to piss me off. Its that willingness to consign other peoples lives to the shitter, for dumb ideology.

I think that's what really annoys me about the traddies' disdain for Jack Hudson's work. (total disagreement!)

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 03:34 PM

A wonderful piece of drama.

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: skipy
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 04:08 PM

As mentioned above Rudyard is a lake where his parents used
"to meet", his first name is Joseph.
Not a lot of people know that,
M Cane
Pretending to be Skipy

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: vectis
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 04:28 PM

Very moving. Well worth watching.

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 05:01 PM

So he supported the war, then, when someone close to him died, he changed his mind. I don't think that really makes him a prat. I would say he behaved like any sensible person. Or are only people who are anti-war allowed to be affected by tradgedy? Are people not allowed to make mistakes of judgement any more?

At one time I was for or against all sorts of things that I have changed my mind over since. Life changes you. The only real prats are the ones who are so blinkered that they don't allow it to.

And, more to the point, it was still a remarkable piece of drama!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 05:16 PM

Well the model for what modern warfare entailed had been there for all to see since the American Civil War, and the Boer War had only been a few short years before.

My Grandfather always insisted that the conditions in the Boer War were a damn sight worse than in the trenches of the first world war, and he served in both.

Like a lot of creative geniuses, RK was a prat. he did a lot of braying about Tommy this and Tommy that, without acquainting himself with even the most basic facts.

RK owed it to all the people who respected and listened to him, not to have misled them. If we can't trust our poets to have a decent humane vision, what good are they? Apart from providing us with adventure stories and catchy rhymes - and I think honours like OM and the Nobel Prize should mean more than that.

As you say - a remarkable piece of drama. But it sort of sticks in my craw, being asked to empathise with him.

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: paula t
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 05:20 PM

I had a headache by the end because I had cried so much. One of the most agonizingly sad elements was the "repression" of men at that time - in that they were not really allowed to show their feelings.One of the most touching scenes was the farewell scene when Rudyard so obviously wanted to hug and kiss his son goodbye- but couldn't , because it "wasn't done".The other was when he briefly lost control then gathered himself and took control of his feelings again.Unbearably sad and beautifully written and acted.

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 05:45 PM

I don't think that there is any reason to think that "he supported the war, then, when someone close to him died, he changed his mind." And that wasn't how most families reacted at the time. The words of John McCrae in "Flanders Fields" were an accurate enough expression of the way relatives were expected to react, and did react:

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields

I'm sure Kipling would have felt he had betrayed his son by pulling strings to get him into the army when he wasn't fit for it, rather than pulling strings to keep him out, which was a more typical thing for people in his position to do. But that's a different thing from turning against the war.

And it still goes on - in every war at some point would be peacemakers are seen as "betraying the fallen".

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 07:54 PM

...Rudyard so obviously wanted to hug and kiss his son goodbye- but couldn't , because it "wasn't done".

It still isn't, more often than not. In England anyway.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE CHILDREN (Rudyard Kipling)
From: The Walrus
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 09:38 PM

I agree that it was a fascinating piece (one or two errors in the kit and sets, but they didn't detract from the power of the piece).
I knew John Kipling had died at Loos and had no known grave (I believe he was found sometime in the '80s, although there is still some doubt expressed over the identification), and I was aware that the Kiplings spent much time tring to locate, first him then his grave, but this play brought home the point.

I think I'll be looking to buy the DVD.

W


I bitterness felt can be seen in some of the Epitaphs RK wrote.


COMMON FORM
If any question why we died,
Tell them, because our fathers lied.


The Children - 1917

THESE were our children who died for our lands: they were dear in our sight.
    We have only the memory left of their home-treasured sayings and laughter.
    The price of our loss shall be paid to our hands, not another's hereafter.
Neither the Alien nor Priest shall decide on it. That is our right.
            But who shall return us the children ?

At the hour the Barbarian chose to disclose his pretences,
    And raged against Man, they engaged, on the breasts that they bared for us,
    The first felon-stroke of the sword he had long-time prepared for us—
Their bodies were all our defense while we wrought our defenses.

They bought us anew with their blood, forbearing to blame us,
Those hours which we had not made good when the judgment o'ercame us.
They believed us and perished for it. Our statecraft, our learning
Delivered them bound to the Pit and alive to the burning
Whither they mirthfully hastened as jostling for honour—
Not since her birth has our Earth seen such worth loosed upon her.

Nor was their agony brief, or once only imposed on them.
    The wounded, the war-spent, the sick received no exemption
    Being cured they returned and endured and achieved our redemption,
Hopeless themselves of relief, till Death, marvelling, closed on them.

That flesh we had nursed from the first in all cleanness was given
To corruption unveiled and assailed by the malice of Heaven—
By the heart-shaking jests of Decay where it lolled on the wires—
To be blanched or gay-painted by fumes—to be cindered by fires—
To be senselessly tossed and retossed in stale mutilation
From crater to crater. For this we shall take expiation.
            But who shall return us our children ?

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 12:50 AM

' But who shall return us our children ?'

He should have seen Matthew Brady's pictures of the American Civil War, and had this thought occurring to him beforehand, (as I'm sure it did to many less influential parents).

At least Rupert Brooke paid the price for talking villainous nonsense personally. RK's son picked up his tab. And I think maybe a dignified silence would have been in order - rather than another lot of bloody useless sanctimonious words.

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 02:49 AM

In the late sixties we were asked to record a friend's grandfather, then quite old, who had lied about his age in order so 'serve his king and country' in France.
For two days he talked about the obscenity of WW1, speaking about it as if it were still happening, and often bursting into tears as he told it as it really was. He more-or-less forgot we were there as he relived his experiences.
One of the most moving parts of the week-end was when he spoke about the deserters. These were not cowards who ran away because they were afraid, but young men - often little more than children, whose minds had become so benumbed by the constant barrage of noise that they simply turned and walked away from it.
They were usually found on the roads, making no attempt to evade capture, were systematically picked up by the military police and taken back to base where they were routinely tried by a drumhead court and sentenced to death. They were then imprisoned to await execution.
If the fighting became intense they were taken out of prison and placed in the front line to 'do their bit'.
After the action had died down, (if they survived the fighting) they were returned to prison and eventually shot by firing squad.
Tom described how it felt to be fighting next to somebody one minute, chatting and swapping cigarettes and experiences, and the next, reading a notice saying he had been shot as a deserter.
Surely society at its most barbaric - Land of Hope and Glory or what - can't wait for next year's 'Proms'.
We sat for many hours with Walter Pardon, listening to him talk about the relative merits of Kipling (a fellow Norfolk man) and Hardy (Walter was very much a 'Hardy nut'). It was he who introduced me to the Hardy poem 'The Man I Killed' - now there's a poem that tells it like it was - streets ahead of all the other jingoistic garbage.
Jim Carroll

Subject: Lyr Add: THE FALLEN OF FULSTOW (Addison/Blanks)
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 03:27 AM

Funny you should mention >>Tom described how it felt to be fighting next to somebody one minute, chatting and swapping cigarettes and experiences, and the next, reading a notice saying he had been shot as a deserter.
<< Jim

The link below tells a similar story.

Fulstow

Mark Addison and John Blanks produced a song called

THE FALLEN OF FULSTOW

The village is in Lincolnshire UK


Lyric: Mark Addison Music: John Blanks
Performed by: John Blanks
Copyright © Mark Addison & John Blanks 2006

In the village of Fulstow the village hall stands
To the memory of those who've gone before,
The sons and the daughters, The Fallen of Fulstow
Who died in the Second World War.

But where's Pennell and Taylor, Wattam and Sherriff,
Harrison, West, Green, Marshall and Hyde?
Gave their all in the Great War, the war to end all wars,
You won't find their names inscribed.

Ten young men played in the fields of Fulstow,
Ten young men played in the fields of green,
And though nine of them died on the field of battle
There's no memorial to be seen.

Charles Kirman, a soldier before 1914,
Recalled to the field, to Mons and The Somme,
Twice wounded in battle, and with honours awarded,
He knew that he could not go on.

So Charlie went AWOL, but he turned himself in
And he told them of the pains in his head.
"My nerves are shot to ribbons, I don't know what I'm doing",
Still the General sentenced him to death.

Then come 1918 the village was told
"You may honour your dead, God rest their souls,
With a stone to your nine sons, The Fallen of Fulstow,
But Kirman's not to be on the roll".

They said, "Ten young men played in our fields of Fulstow,
Ten young men played in our fields of green,
Only nine of them died on the field of battle
But all ten have the right to be seen".

It's eighty-odd years now, and the General's gone
There's a statue of him somewhere I dare say.
The 11th of November, 2005
Saw Fulstow's first Armistice Day.

"Ten young men played in our fields of Fulstow,
Ten young men played in our fields of green,
All ten of them died as brothers in arms
And ten names are there to be seen".

"All ten of them died as Brothers In Arms,
And ten names are there to be seen".

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: The Walrus
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 06:18 AM

"...He should have seen Matthew Brady's pictures of the American Civil War, and had this thought occurring to him beforehand, (as I'm sure it did to many less influential parents)..."

WLD,

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but, at the time, the American Civil War was a minor conflict in what was then a minor power - American influence would not grow until the 20th Century - Of more importance to British civilians would have been the Crimea ; Indian Mutiny; China (1860 2nd Opium War); New Zealand (Moari Wars); Canada (Finian Raids); Abyssinia; the Ashantee Wars; South Africa (Zulu wars) or Afghanistan and Egypt.

To be honest, at the time, I'm not sure how many people, outside of the US would have seen any Matthew Brady photographs or even heard of him.

As for the nature of the Great War, remember that it was going to be a short sharp War, if not 'over by Christmas' it was expected not to last more than a year or so, it was to be a war of movement (just like the Franco-Prussian War) - believe it or not, the 'mutual siege' of trench warfare came as a shock to both sides.

The problem is that, from this distance, it is difficult not to view any decision made then, without hindsight, which must, by its nature distort our view.

Walrus