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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST Date: 21 Dec 18 - 03:40 PM Shane has always said it is not a Christmas Song |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Dec 18 - 06:55 PM Rare Old Mountain Dew predates Good Old Mountain Dew by a good few years. It was written for an Irish play in 1882, and first put on a record in 1927 - which was only a year before Bascom Langford came up with the latter song, so perhaps that was influenced by it. Very different songs though, with very different moods. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Senoufou Date: 22 Dec 18 - 07:01 PM 'Shane has always said it's not a Christmas song'. But many of the lyrics are about Christmas: "It was Christmas Eve babe, in the drunk tank..." "And the bells were ringing out for Christmas Day" "So happy Christmas, I love you baby..." "When you first took my hand on a cold Christmas Eve" Rather a lot about Christmas for it not to be a (sort of) Christmas song? |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Steve Shaw Date: 22 Dec 18 - 07:33 PM If Shane sez it's not a Christmas song, it's not a Christmas song. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: meself Date: 22 Dec 18 - 08:37 PM What IS a Christmas song, exactly? I would suggest that the only definitive quality of a Christmas song is that the world thinks of it as a Christmas song. You or I or Shane might not like it, but we'd be a trio of King Canutes .... |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,Terray Date: 22 Dec 18 - 10:29 PM McGrath, I think you were refering to Bascom Lamar Lunsford in your last post. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Will Fly Date: 23 Dec 18 - 05:25 AM To my mind, a "Christmas song" is a song about Christmas and all associated with that festival. Shane M's song is about a relationship gone sour and being lamented about - all the more poignantly because it's set on Christmas Eve, traditionally a time of love, friendship, goodwill, etc. But a song about Christmas it ain't. Jona Lewie's "Stop The Cavalry" is in a similar position. In an interview for Channel 4's 100 Greatest Christmas Moments, Lewie said that the song was never intended as a Christmas hit, and that it was a protest song. The line 'Wish I was at home for Christmas' as well as the brass band arrangements made it an appropriately styled song to play around Christmas time. [Wikipedia] |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,henryp Date: 23 Dec 18 - 06:03 AM Singer Shane MacGowan and fellow Pogue Jem Finer had for some while been tossing around an idea for a Christmas song... The Life of a Song FT 22/23 December 2018 Fairytale |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Dave the Gnome Date: 23 Dec 18 - 06:05 AM I don't think Christmas songs have to mention christmas. Deck the halls is one that springs to mind. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Snuffy Date: 23 Dec 18 - 06:22 AM Agreed, DTG. And by the same token, songs that do mention Christmas don't have to be Christmas songs. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,henryp Date: 23 Dec 18 - 06:45 AM All eight members of The Pogues return to the studio where their biggest hit - and the nation's favourite Christmas single - was recorded, to tell the story behind the song. Fairytale 2 I Was There; Steve Lillywhite, producer of the song - and husband of Kirsty MacColl - speaks to Adrian Chiles. Fairytale 3 |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Dec 18 - 12:54 PM Maybe Shane was making the same kind of distinction between "Christmas Songs" and songs about Christmas that we might make about a distinction between songs like Home Lads Home and The Green Fields of France which are obviously about the War and War Songs. Would we call Christmas in the Trenches either a War Song or a Christmas Song? Anyway both songs are songs best sung around Christmas to bring out their meaning. Of course there are songs that weren't at all about Christmas which have become Christmas songs by virtue of how people regard them, for example Jingle Bells which was a Thanksgiving Song. The opinions of the people who wrote or performed them are totally irrelevant. As is generally the case - songs are free agents, nobody owns a song except in a financial way. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: JHW Date: 23 Dec 18 - 02:51 PM Attaching Christmas to a song gives it airplay every year (and the excuse for seasonal renderings in folk clubs) |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: meself Date: 23 Dec 18 - 03:17 PM Well, it sounds like you've had a generation or two on the east side of the pond who have grown up hearing the song at Christmas, and, presumably for most of them, only at Christmas, so ... I suspect it's a done deal out there in the real world. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST Date: 23 Dec 18 - 04:00 PM I've liked that song since I first heard it and never concerned myself with what time of year it was when I listened to it. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 24 Dec 18 - 04:25 AM "'So "The Rare Ould Mountain Dew" reminded him of his girlfriend did it Allan - WTF was she A Kentucky Moonshiner?? '" Seriously if folks don't want it to be about Irish immigrants fair enough then let it not be about that for you. It could be about any couple from anywhere that is plain. Just as Dirty Old Town could be about anywhere - though we know it is written about Salford. There is enough in the lyric to surmise that TFONY involves immigrants in New York though. Even the line "they have cars big as bars" suggests they are relative strangers to the US with the stereotype we hold here of the Americans having huge cars. Then there is enough in the lyric and enough in the other songs of the band and enough in the title and history to suggest the immigrants are Irish rather than from Ipswich or somewhere. If you don't want them to be then fair enough!!! It isn't really worth fretting over though. If someone sees that Irishness for themselves in the lyric they will see that. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Dave Hanson Date: 24 Dec 18 - 05:23 AM I like it. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: Senoufou Date: 25 Dec 18 - 09:36 AM Aw, it's on TV at this very moment! Feel a bit teary, it's quite a tragic song really, their lives are so pitiful. The word 'faggot' wasn't bleeped out thank goodness. |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge Date: 26 Dec 18 - 05:55 AM I `ad that Vernon `awksworth-`arming in my cab the other day. `e`s the top sensor for the Auntie BBC.`e was scribbling away like tomorrow wasn`t coming. I said, "Morning Vernie. You doing your Christmas list or something?" `e said, "No Jim. We going to be playing that "Fairytale of New York" and we`ve got to be sure not to upset anybody". I said, "Go on then. What `ave you got in mind?" `e said, "`ere, let me read from this sheet for you. Whaddya think?" "Title:- Fairytale". Derogatory term. Use `omosexualstory. Verse 1:- Babe. remove contents re infants. Peedo interest. Old man. Use old person. More inclusive. Verse 2:- "Got on" suggests possible copulation. Use bet. More reference to babies. Use sweetheart. Too much "coming". Sexual connotations. Use arriving. Verse 3:- Wind . Suggest flatulence. Use cold, moving air. Broadway. Derogatory ref. to women. Use Personway. Verse 4:- Remove Queen. Derogatory `omosexual connotation. Sinatra swinging. Family might object to referring to his private parts. Kissed. Definitely out. Could lead to future accusations of sexual assault. "Me Too" might `ave something to say. Verse 5:- Boys of the Choir. The Pope might object in view of the latest revelations. Verse 6:- Bum. remove ref. to sensitive physical areas. Slut on a junk. This may not go down well with Chinese listeners. Suggests waterborne prostitution. Remove faggot. Derogatory `omosexual term and it is not nice calling somebody a bundle of small branches, tied around the middle and intended for the fire. Arse. See line above re physical parts. Verse 7:- `es referring to infants again. Delete it." I said, "Blimey! It`ll never rhyme with all those changes". `e said, "That don`t matter. It keeps the "snowflakes `appy!!" Whaddam I Like?? |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: GUEST,akenaton Date: 26 Dec 18 - 10:56 AM :0)...Jim you should be on the telly......you're not Jim Davidson by any chance? |
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Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb! From: lefthanded guitar Date: 28 Dec 18 - 06:00 PM This thread promoted me to (re) listen to this song, which I always liked and still do. The use of the term faggot doesn't offend me b/c it is used in context ( as several posters here have already stated) as the quote of a character in the song. It is a fiercely beautiful and savage tale of the tangle of dashed hopes of love and life. It is cinema in a song. Randy Newman has faced similar criticisms in writing songs in the voice of dysfunctional, unlikeable and/or despicable characters - the redneck, the slave trader in Sail Away, even the song Short People , which some listeners literally took as a diatribe against short people ( instead of a ironic observation of bigotry in general) Some folks just don't 'get it' - thankfully Ray Charles did get it and recorded the definitive version of Sail Away. These type of songs are more like short stories or plays, set to music , and should be regarded as such imho. That said, time has give us a different perspective on hurling about bigoted insults. If I were gay. I think I might take offense at hearing this term in a song, just as we are no longer as tolerant of calling people names like the n- word, giudo, kike, ragheads, red dots. etc. - especially if the words are hatefully used by a bigot. Anyone who wants to sing this song as pc, can easily substitute a word like ' maggot' - though I wouldn't change it myself. I also wonder of some of the objection to the song stems from the fact that it can be perceived as a rejection of the spirit of Christmas. Well, in that case, they can take an ear to Jackson Browne's The Rebel Jesus. Which also examines the underside of this season of joy. I listen to both Fairytale and Rebel; and find them powerful and moving songs of the season- even as much as I look forward to the annual performances of O Holy Night, or The Christmas song by Darlene Love. At any rate, glad the song was reinstated to the playlist. For whatever reason. |
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