How to kill the record industry...

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 05:15 PM

Friggin' A, Mick. Friggin' A.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: reggie miles
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 12:13 AM

Yes, of course. I agree. And because so many sites and software companies fear being liable they have some very elaborate lawyerly stuff that one must agree with before getting involved with their particular offerings. Even so, the sheer numbers of those joining such sites and using various software products make it nearly impossible at this time to be able to police it all. It sounds bad because it is. The solution sounds like a software fix that limits such unauthorized usage but I'm not a software engineer. Nor am I a lawyer. So, I'm in the same boat your are.

Getting ripped off in the way you describe isn't pleasant and for the record, I do not agree with those that feel that just because they can do it and get away with it, that they have the green light to go ahead and do it. It just isn't right.

In my brief looking about in this big cyber world I've seen many sites that actively do not support the kind of thievery you are concerned about but they also have no means to actively enforce that stand. It is largely an honor system. Just one look at the number and variety of nasty bugs that are being blocked by my spam filter alone and I know that I'm outnumbered and surrounded. We do need help, all the help we can get.

When I've encountered those who steal in the real world, when I've looked them in the face while removing my possesions from their pockets, after they've stared straight into my eyes and told me that they did not take them, I realize that I am looking at someone who is totally foreign to me and everything I believe. It's as though they are from another planet altogether. I don't have the capacity to understand why they do what they do.

One recent expose points out that one reason that people continue to steal via the web is because the web is such that it makes it easy for them to do so and then easily cover their tracks. I couldn't easily count how many times that I've been notified via some spam that I've won the International Lottery. The word has been out for some time now and the scams are abundant. It's a lot like the depictions of the wild west frontiers of old but multiplied on a much more massive scale.

It's hard to calculate the individual acts of shenanigans. Even if collectively they add up to huge numbers lost, who has the resources to talley them and then counter such an enslaught? The laws of the land are just beginning to realize that they hold little weight in the cyber world and are only now waking up to the fact all new restrictions are needed to combat and prevent cyber crime.

Having such a small footprint in this whole experience, I'm not sure that I can offer solutions to make right the many wrongs out there in the mess we're discussing. Like so many others on the web I grope blindly for direction with the many questions that I face each time I get involved with offering my music online and find few answers.

Mick, are you concerned because you've already had someone steal your work? I hope you don't feel that I was making light of that by my comments.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Slag
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 01:19 AM

A rip off is never right. Can we learn anything from the print industry? Strict rules against plagiarism (pirating). Limited use within academia (op. cit., etc.). Vigorous prosecution and a nasty taste of shame upon the violators. More, much more control by the author. It's not perfect but it does seem to me that the printed word has a much better time of it.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 09:02 AM

In quoting the point made by Southern Celt originating this thread,
"When all is said and done, the lawyers are the only ones that'll come out ahead and happy with this", this still rings true!
I and am sure most here do not want to see the artist or songwriter being ripped off. The unfortunate truth is that it is inherent in a corrupt system and the most powerful players can afford to play the legal game to their advantage. The little guy simply can not!
In quoting Pat Sky: "I want you to know that the recording industry are a bunch a of criminals and have been stealing from the artists for a hundred years. This record is a fine example and is the rule and not the exception. This is why I support "Free" download music because, regardless of how much the recording industry complains, they get 99.9% of the money and the artist never gets a fair shake." I guess an inside viewpoint has merit. His Green Linnet was a label that I would purchase with a feeling that it was an exception to the rule, although from posts that I read on Mudcat I wonder about its later life? Borealis is also an exception and I am sure that there are many others that treat the little guy fairly. Stompin Tom started the Boot label to prevent rip offs as well but I am unsure of it's status now. That being said the quest for a solution is not easy. One that I strongly advocate is that copyright ownership remain with the author/artist and only usage rights be conveyed to others with a sunset of about 5 years. Of course that will never happen because it is not in the interest of the industry and they have the lawyers.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Maryrrf
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 09:24 AM

Given the technology, the speed with which it is developing, and the sheer ease of copying and sending music files, I don't know what the solution could be. I like to listen to CDs on my computer, and for some reason the program immediately starts 'ripping' them to my hard drive, whether I want the songs there or not! But I will say that I think that being able to download single songs for a reasonable fee, usually around $1.00, is a wonderful thing and may encourage people to 'take the high road'. Lots of times I'm only interested in one or two songs on a CD, I really balked at spending $15.00 for the entire album. Now I can pay $.99 per song and make up my own compilation albums - and I love it! The ability to buy individual songs at a reasonable price may at least remove some of the temptation to 'bootleg' music. I am assuming, of course, that if I pay the $.99, and then download the song and burn it to a CD so I can listen to it in the car - it is legal.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 11:03 AM

Mick: You're right my post was shallow and stated the obvious I believe artist should be protected but I don't have a solution for the problem and I'm not certain anyone else does after reading this thread. Perhaps there isn't a solution that will work for everyone. So maybe my post didn't add to the conversation but what did the posts add to the conversation where people are telling each other to fuck off?
Is it possible to make CDs where they can't be ripped on to computers? How do you keep people from downloading tunes gratis. (By the way, I take no umbrage at your comment as I state above you're absolutely right.) Do we start covert surveilence on computers to see if people are illegally down loading music? Mary in the post above makes a point. My Dell does the same thing If I put a CD in , It begins ripping it to the computer Thuis issue doesn't only affect musicians If you can "Rip" Music this easy, you can printout online books etc. Neil

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 02:09 PM

OK, Neil. I accept the criticism for the language I used. But not the sentiment. It was a bad day, and I didn't like the dismissive "high horse" comment, which indicated a complete lack of comprehension as to the arguments I put forth. I stand duly and correctly chastised for my use of foul language and apologize for it. As to the intent of my comment, minus the offending language, I stand by it for the reasons stated subsequently.

Back to the issue. I don't agree that ripping CD's for one's personal use, CD's that one has paid for, constitutes any sort of illegal or immoral use. I think I pointed out that I disagree with the industry and folks who think it is. That is a perfectly legitimate use. I also think that the way of the future is downloading, often a tune at a time, and that CD's are going to wane in popularity. I am OK with all of that. As long as the creators of the music can legitimately control their product, this technology may finally resolve one of the longstanding evils of the business of producing music for sale. But if steps are not taken to make sure that there is a clear line between theft and legitimate use, artists will simply have swapped one set of thieves (labels) for another set (folks that rip without paying for it).

Mick

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 02:25 PM

Actually Mick, I wasn't thinking of you when I made my point.Your language is usually pretty polite. There were some others who bandied the word about pretty freely and as I stated in my last post you're right in what you said about my post. In my defense, I should have stayed out of the post while working on being ill.
We are of a mind here on the issue It has implications for everyone in the creative arts and it is something that needs to be addressed. Thank you for the apology though it wasn't needed. It is appreciated. Kindest regards, Neil

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 02:32 PM

I checked with some pretty good computer people about the idea of encryption for CDs, thus making downloads inpossible without the key. The thought was to give people who purchased a download the ability to download once and that's that. But, what happens after? Someone could burn it and make copies, etc, and it's back to square one.

I recall bak in the day being asked what I did for a living. (I was then paid a salary to create songs). So, I'd say, "I'm a songwriter." Most folks would then ask, "Oh. But do you work for a living?"

The same people who would not think of getting a plumber, electrician or doctor to work for free sometimes DO ecpect songwriters to work for free. Perceptions . . . .

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 03:04 PM

Peace: I'm a writer and I get that one all the time. and people try to stiff you on the cost of a job too. I will say most of my clients are very good about paying but i had one who stiffed me the cost of the work I did for him adn You are absolutely right about the perception. Neil

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 03:19 PM

I hear that, Neil.

I'd like to say that songs just 'appear' and that I can write one in a few hours. (I have once or twice, but they were the exception, not the rule.) The last song I wrote that I am completely happy with from start to finish took me three weeks of about five hours per day with the guitar. Probably took me about 100 hours (I'm a slow writer). It had a new kinda rhyme scheme and I wanted the melody to be just so because it was at the time the best thing I'd ever done, etc. It ain't all just fun and games. But then I know you know what I mean. There are times it just flows, but then there are other times it is harder work than putting in a house foundation.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: reggie miles
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 06:33 PM

There are certainly lots of fans of the music that we play that wouldn't dream of taking advantage of us. They know that we make our livelihoods via our music. I've tried to encourage some who have had an interest in my music to simply download some of it for free via the web because I've had some of it available online for that purpose. I've been surprised to have some instead insist on purchasing a recording, even going so far as to offer me more than I was asking for it. Thank you rabid fanage!

I'm also certain that there are those that represent the opposite opinion regarding this subject but my focus has been to actively spend much of my time finding those that might support what I do. My particular musical niche seems small and obscure. I've had no real concern about anyone's interest in reaping rewards that might be due via my efforts, but perhaps I'm simply ignorant of the dangers out there.

I've not been encouraged by some of the stories that I've heard on this subject. Is there any solution? I suspect that unless you've got a good lawyer, or team of them, and deep pockets, for now, we may have to chalk this up as the price of doing business.

As a minor player in this game I suspect that the damages that I might suffer are too small to be worth the effort of trying to recoup them. So, it simply becomes a matter of choosing your fights. Even if the rewards are worthy of the effort to fight for them you still have to have the means to do so.

I've had my art stolen from me on several occasions. I could take the experience as a backhanded compliment given that someone desired something that I created so much, but it's never really a nice feeling to have that happen, especially, as in this discussion, when the thieves profit from the the theft.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Nickhere
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 07:40 PM

"I wish that folks would contribute to the solutions instead of defending the indefensible. Tell us how you would protect folks like myself, and others, who would like to cover the production costs and make a fair compensation for the sale of the music we spend dollars and time producting"
Mick

From what I've been reading here about some of the bigger record companies, it seems the best way to protect artists is by putting some of the energy currently being employed in chasing copyright infringers, into getting the big record companies to cough up their fair dues and pay the artists a fair cut. I remember reading elsewhere about how artists like Son House and Robert Wilkins might get paid a once-off 20 dollar fee for a recording while the record company would go on to make hundreds of thousands of dollars. Then again when you think how much it costs the big companies to make a CD (about a dollar, including the royalties paid to the artist) and what they sell them to the public for (about 15 times that or more) you begin to feel the only ones who've been ripping everyone off are the big companies. I know that's over simplifying it a bit, but....

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Nickhere
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 07:42 PM

I know that doesn't really answer your question Mick, as you seem to be indie produced or self-produced

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Slag
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 08:08 PM

It's yours for a song!

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 05:19 PM

Fair enough, Nick. But one thing I would point out is that I continually here about what it costs the big operators to make a CD, but I have yet to see a credible cite on that info. Second, the cost of production is but one part of what it takes them to bring it to market, distribution and promotion being another. Also, here in the States, the "price it at what the market will bear" principle is alive and well. It is, after all, a capitalist economy. Lest anyone should misunderstand, I am not defending the "big boys" (how come we never call them "the big girls" .... chuckle), but I would like to know from a credible source what the real number is.

And having said all that, where does that leave smaller artists such as inhabit The Mudcat? I know that my first CD cost me a little over $10,000 to produce. The first run was 1000 CD's. By the time you factor in promo copies to promoters, radio shows, etc., you have to get $11.00 +, and that doesn't compensate the artist for the time they spend in the studio. We figured that we really weren't going to make any money on the CD until we got in the second run, and that pretty well was the case. So when we sell a CD for $15.00, we pretty well have to, in order to put food on the table. I know that the low volume dealers like Folk Legacy and Camsco are in the same kind of boat. They operate based on love of the music more than profit motive even though they are paying the bills (barely) at $15.00 a copy. This is why it is so important, in my mind, to get a handle on controlling downloading now. And it is doubly important to make sure everyone understands that this is theft, and it is NOT harmless. I think the attitude really bothers me most. Technology can fix the ability to control the downloading, but getting folks to understand that they don't have the right to steal my intellectual property, and that there is a cost to me when you do, is the real battle.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 09:29 PM

RIAA Declares Using Brain to Remember Songs is Criminal Copyright Infringement
by Mike Adams December 31, 2007

On the heels of the RIAA's recent decision to criminalize consumers who rip songs from albums they've purchased to their computers
(or iPods), the association has now gone one step further and declared that "remembering songs" using your brain is criminal
copyright infringement. "The brain is a recording device," explained RIAA president Cary Sherman. "The act of listening is an
unauthorized act of copying music to that recording device, and the act of recalling or remembering a song is unauthorized
playback."

The RIAA also said it would begin sending letters to tens of millions of consumers thought to be illegally remembering songs,
threatening them with lawsuits if they don't settle with the RIAA by paying monetary damages. "We will aggressively pursue all
copyright infringement in order to protect our industry," said Sherman.

In order to avoid engaging in unauthorized copyright infringement, consumers will now be required to immediately forget everything
they've just heard -- a skill already mastered by U.S. President George Bush. To aid in these memory wiping efforts, the RIAA is
teaming up with Big Pharma to include free psychotropic prescription drugs with the purchase of new music albums. Consumers are
advised to swallow the pills before listening to the music. The pills -- similar to the amphetamines now prescribed for ADHD --
block normal cognitive function, allowing consumers to enjoy the music in a more detached state without the risk of accidentally
remembering any songs (and thereby violating copyright law).

Consumers caught humming their favorite songs will be charged with a more serious crime: The public performance of a copyrighted
song, for which the fines can reach over $250,000 per incident. "Humming, singing and whistling songs will not be tolerated," said
Sherman. "Only listening and forgetting songs is allowed."

Consumers attempting to circumvent the RIAA's new memory-wiping technology by actually remembering songs will be charged with
felony crimes under provisions of the DMCA (Digital Millennium Copyright Act). The Act, passed in 1998, makes it a felony crime to
circumvent copyright protection technologies. The RIAA's position is that consumers who actually use their brains while listening
to music are violating the DMCA. "We would prefer that consumers stop using their brains altogether," said Sherman.

With this decision, the RIAA now considers approximately 72% of the adult U.S. population to be criminals. Putting them all in
prison for copyright infringement would cost U.S. taxpayers an estimated $683 billion per year -- an amount that would have to be
shouldered by the remaining 28% who are not imprisoned. The RIAA believes it could cover the $683 billion tab through royalties on
music sales. The problem with that? The 28% remaining adults not in prison don't buy music albums. That means album sales would
plummet to nearly zero, and the U.S. government (which is already deep in debt) would have to borrow money to pay for all the
prisons. And where would the borrowed money come from? China, of course: The country where music albums are openly pirated and sold
for monetary gain.

When asked whether he really wants 72% of the U.S. population to be imprisoned for ripping music CDs to their own brains, RIAA
president Sherman shot back, "You don't support criminal behavior do you? Every person who illegally remembers a song is a
criminal. We can't have criminal running free on the streets of America. It's an issue of national security."
_______________
NOTE: This is a satire report on the RIAA. That means it's written as fictional humor. It does not yet represent the actual
position of the RIAA, although from the way things are going, the association may soon adopt it. Permission is granted to make
copies of this story, redistribute it, post it and e-mail it (please provide proper credit and URL) as long as you do not actually
remember it because copying to your brain is now strictly prohibited. Any attempts to circumvent the memory-based copyright
restrictions on this article will result in your brain imploding, causing such an extreme loss of cognitive function that your only
hope for any future career will be running for public office.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: harpmolly
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 07:05 PM

ROFL!! :D Brilliant!

OK, I really did log onto Mudcat for work-related purposes (if anyone's reading over my shoulder).

P.S. Mick...the fact that I found the above article hilarious certainly doesn't diminish my respect for, and agreement with, your position. I certainly don't condone the indiscriminate copying and/or distribution of anyone's copyrighted material. :)

Molly

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Slag
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 07:27 PM

Surely we with early onset senile dementia or Alzheimer's are naturally exempt from, a, from whatever you were going on about. Surely, uh, Shirley, what did you say I was doing here....?

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 08:52 PM

Mick--and others--

I'm curious. What were your motives in making a CD? For a performer, I believe that the main values of a CD are as a supplement to gig income, and as a promotional tool. It's very difficult for me to see how the vast majority of folks that make CDs will make enough money from them to justify the labor and cash outlay involved.

I know why I deal in CDs--but then there are many who question my sanity.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST,HOUSE
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 05:41 PM

Below is a link to the most accurate, well thought out, and brilliant blog about the future of the music industry that I have ever read.

http://www.demonbaby.com/blog/2007/10/when-pigs-fly-death-of-oink-birth-of.html

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST,Rich
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 06:12 PM

Wow this thread has been going for ages. I haven't read it all but I have to say I'm still with Big Mick; stealing is stealing.

Big music companies may eventually die, and I'm sure they are ruthless and everything that goes with it, but I don't think this gives us the right to steal something that isn't ours.

If I think drinking in the local boozer is too expensive I don't order the pint. I don't drink it and then say I'm not going to pay for it. You can say its different, but it isn't. Copyright law is just as valid as any other form of ownership.

The best modern day example is probably Tesco's, 12.5% of the TOTAL UK high street market, and I'm sure they are as cutthroat as any music company. But because all of their products are tangible and you can hold them in your hand, I bet nobody here would admit to walking out of a store without paying for any of it, even if the suppliers of the products have been screwed over along the way.

By the way, I think this is what Gillian Welch's song 'Everything is Free' is about.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST,Reverse Flow
Date: 20 May 09 - 03:27 AM

The answer is not to stop piracy, it is to make a new service that is so unique and superior that it is the only thing that people want to use. I tunes is a service like that but it only accounts for a small percentage of all music sales. If something truly better and more captivating emerges then the industry will become stronger. Also, now there are more opportunities for independent labels and artists due to the declining influence of major record labels.