Venues are a changing.

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 04:14 PM

How did the evening go, Jim?


Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 04:58 PM

Sounds ideal, Jim!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 03:00 AM

On the bright side.
Tonight I'll be the feature at the "Coffee House" in the local community hall which is actually a well preserved "Settler's Cabin".
It's a one room, log cabin and there will be somewhere between 20 & 30 in attendance.
The pot bellied wood stove will be burning next to the stage. Tea, coffee and cakes laid out at the back of the room and someone may remember to take donations at the door. There will be a few locals doing the warm up (my favourite part of these evenings) and there will be children of all ages.
Looking forward to that.

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 02:47 AM

Aye!

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Brendy
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 02:43 AM

Oh.

B.

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 02:41 AM

I'm sick of it!

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Brendy
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 01:18 AM

What is it about playing in pubs that you don't like, Jim?

B.

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 01:11 AM

Allow me to rephrase in such a manner that no-one will come along and feel the need to interpret this for me.

"I am sick of playing in pubs."

There! I think that came out just right.
Cheers!
Jim

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Brendy
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 11:31 PM

"What I'm experiencing now is that a whole number of cafes are being run by 50 & ups who happen to be former folk musicians"

If you take the word 'cafe' and replace it with any other type of social gathering point, then reiterate with Stewart's point that "...the key is an owner who loves the music.", then I think that is a fairly good reading of the way that it is going at the present.

Banjiman notes that "... luckily we still have some pubs left that are prepared to put on/ allow real music...", but again the key to it all is the engagement and enthusiasm of the owner of the place; one who is more interested in 'providing' than in 'selling' the product.

"I'm really tired of playing pubs to counter the fact that folk clubs can't afford very much" I think the term 'playing pubs' generates a negative attitude towards that end of the entertainment spectrum; some of it is justified, but moreso because of the audience one expects in the places, who generally speaking want nothing else only the 'Come All Ye...' songs.

The trick, there, is to get those eejits out of the place on the nights you want to run a 'Folk Club' in the place.

Pubs operate on a monthly/quarterly budget.
If they don't they're not good managers.
Those that provide entertainment, also have a monthly/--- budget: Their accountant takes their ingoings with outgoings, subtracts one from the other and tells you how much you can spend on Entertainment.
Most of the Friday/Sat night crowd will not be there when you have the 'Tuesday Night Folk Club', or whatever, in that pub, and if the thing is advertised well enough , especially by the pub, as part of their 'Entertainment Schedule', then the whole thing is a lot more integrated; no different from 'Darts Night'

There are a lot of Folk musicians who make excuses for the music, that it is outside the mainstream and somehow inferior because of it, but the main judges of that should be the public.
How the public have it presented to them is also a key to it's success.

The kids are coming on fine, yes, but as you say, Jim, they're turning their heads away from the traditional, and, personally, I don't think that is a particularly good direction for the pendulum to swing, because as Peace says "...folk has not exposed itself to the newer generations. It was not presented and found lacking. It's just not been presented in a medium the kids use."... and, because the new proprietors of these 'new' Folk Clubs (the above mentioned 50's and upwards), are not of the IT generation, the kids (who most definitely are), have the ups on us.

I think now with Pub Culture going mad in Britain, the (on the whole) gentler, folk music audience, will take their music away from the pubs themselves.

Coffee-houses, Book stores, Irish and English pubs the World over (if they designate a night for it....and promote the damn thing...), will be the inheritors of the 'Folk Club' mantle in future years.

B.

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 05:07 PM

Who knows?
Somebody probably complained about the fun.
Wish they'd jump on some of the offensive stuff as quickly.

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Carol
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 05:04 PM

Sorry but how come you've lost the ♫ ?

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 05:00 PM

I've guzzled downright unhealthy amounts of coffee while singing in coffeehouses and never had a problem as far as nerves are concerned. The only problem was that after finishing a gig near midnight, I sometimes didn't get to sleep until 4:00 a.m. So I started cutting back a bit. But it never did bother my nerves.

One evening, the owner of "The Place Next Door" (next door to the Guild 45th theater—played foreign and art films—and owned by the same guy, hence, "the place next door.") brought me a new drink he'd been working on. In addition to specialty coffees, teas, pastries, sandwiches, and such, he had a couple of fruit-flavored fizzy drinks on the menu, and this was an addition he was concocting. It was very tasty. But (and this would definitely not be served to the customers because of booze licenses and such) the one he gave me was laced with vodka. I guess I was pretty entertaining that night because he said that he thought I should stay a little juiced all the time!

I never had all that much problem with nerves, fortunately. The first time I sang for a crowd of any size (1955), I thought there would be maybe twenty or twenty-five people there and when I walked in, the audience was more like 250! My hands were trembling so hard that the guitar accompaniment to my first song was pretty sloppy, but they applauded enthusiastically, and once I realized they weren't going to lynch me, I was okay.

Another time was before I did my first television show (1959). This was before videotape was in widespread use, and at the time KCTS was a low-budget educational station (now, it's a big PBS affiliate). Studio videotape machines cost about $50,000, and they couldn't afford one yet, so my show was live! We were well rehearsed and I knew exactly what I was going to do, but during the half-hour before we went on the air, I had to go down the hall and pee about six times. Fortunately the show went off like clockwork because I was in a stupor.

Sally, the producer, spotted my nervousness and we chatted a bit. She said, "You're probably thnking about the thousands of people who are watching, right?" I allowed as how that was so. She said, "You don't get nervous if you're singing for just a couple of people, do you?" Well, no. "Okay," she said, "just remember that you're coming through a television set, and there are usually no more than a couple of people watching a single set. So, there you are. It sometimes helps if you sing the show to someone you know is watching."

Thank, you, Sally! The next show I was keyed up, but not nervous. I started felling like an old hand at it.

One of the best pieces of advice I ever got about nerves is when I auditioned to get into the University of Washington School of Music. I was auditioning for Dr. Stanley Chappell, the head of the school. I got through the first few measures of a fairly easy classic guitar piece, then completely blew it. Came unglued. Dr. Chappell stopped me. He knew how much this meant to me and completely understood. So we chatted a bit, and he said, "The main reason young musicians get nervous in auditions or have stage-fright—other than not being well prepared—is that they're thinking more about what the audience will think of them than they are about the music they're performing. Now, I want you to ignore me and think about the music and what it expresses. Okay, let's try it again."

This time I played it reasonably well, and Dr. Chappell okayed my admission to the school. I learned a lot there, but I think that was one of the most important things.

I don't drink that much coffee anymore. Too much, even decaf, and it bothers my stomach. Onset of geezerhood, I guess.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 04:48 PM

Think I had that album... "The Clancy Brothers & Tommy Makem in Person at Jack Campin's Single End"

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Stewart
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:57 PM

Then there's the grange hall. Most rural communities in the US have an old grange hall, and many have been restored and are used for folk music and dancing. Just put "grange hall folk music" into google and you'll find many of those. They're usually small wooden buildings with fantastic acoustics (no sound system necessary) and a great community feeling.

Across from Seattle on Bainbridge Island is a great grange hall venue hosting the Seabold Second Saturday Open Mic (no mic). A great venue - only problem, for us mainlanders we have to leave early to catch the ferry back home, and it's so popular you enter a lottery and may or may not get to play that evening.

Cheers, S, in Seattle

Subject: RE: ? Venues are a changing.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:54 PM

Grab, it's quite common for older Scottish flats to have some much larger rooms than English ones. The nothing-special Glasgow tenement flat I used to live in (living room, one bedroom, kitchen, bathroom) had the living room big enough that I once had two sets of an eightsome reel going at once without even moving all the furniture. I could have seated at least as many people as the Wee Folk Club at the Royal Oak in Edinburgh does.

Being the part of Glasgow that it was, my neighbour in the ground floor flat had his living room furnished with a bar counter complete with tap and keg fitting so he could use it as a practice space for an Orange flute band.

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:40 PM

Holy Smoke!!!

IanC, thank you for pointing out the boo-boo! I don't know where that 1700 figure came from unless I screwed up in my first draft. I checked and came up with this:

In 1675, Charles II 'called for the suppression of all coffee-houses in London as being places where the disaffected met, and spread scandalous reports concerning the conduct of his Majesty and his Ministers'. The uproar that followed forced Charles to cancel this edict.

From HERE.

I'm going to dig through my files and re-re-check my original sources.   If you spotted any other goofs, please let me know. And again, thank you!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Maryrrf
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:39 PM

Churches or synagogues are sometimes willing to let their premises be used as venues, and often their fee is very reasonable. They have the chairs, space, etc. so that's where a lot of small concerts are held. The audience doesn't have to be religious by any means.

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:37 PM

Small churches make wonderful venues and provide a most intimate experience for worship. There is much more to it than just the acoustics though with regards to it not being done in the U.K.
As for house concerts... I have to agree that houses in Britain are much too small although 20 guests at a house concert is a reasonable figure.
I'd be quite happy with that and would expect to sell 20 albums.
Get into the community hall and you can expect to sell one album for every 10 patrons.
Coffee shops... again, not going to sell so much (around 10%) as a house concert but still decent.

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:12 PM

Graham - I wasn't suggesting that the U.K. should adapt U.S. folk venue standards, just pointing out the differences. As you pointed out, there would be issues of having such concerts in your country. Our bars and taverns do not serve the same purpose as your pubs either.

While our houses might be larger and spread out in many areas, I've attended "house" concerts in NYC apartments.   20 people in a room would be fine for some performers - our house concerts usually draw 20 to 50 depending on how large of a home.

As for churches, besides what the media portrays as the religious right, I think most Americans also rarely visit a house of worship - or at least not on a regular basis.   I can safely say I've attended more concerts in churches in the last year then I have worship services in the last 30!   That is just me, and I wasn't bragging - but I do think it is typical of the majority of our folkie audiences.

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Stewart
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 02:06 PM

Jim Lad - I agree, it's nice to have a pint of beer, but only after I perform.

And here in the States, pubs are much different places. I've played in several in Seattle.

An Irish session in a nice Irish pub, the room is very nice and free Guinness is good, good food too, but the occasional (or not so occasional) drunk or alcoholic musician, the noise particularly after a game (it is walking distance from two major sports stadiums), makes it less than desirable.

A musician's showcase in another Irish pub (but you wouldn't know it was Irish), musicians playing mostly to other musicians, most of the other patrons more interested in the game on TV (that rousing cheer in the middle of your song is simply because of a score in the game) or pool table or other gaming machines, very noisy room with poor acoustics and not very good sound system. Again not the best place for music.

A fisherman's pub, a large room, fairly good acoustics (after the TV is turned off), but only musicians listening to other musicians on an otherwise quiet week night (few other patrons), and the owner making little money from the musicians decides to cancel our music and bring in a rock band.

So that leaves the coffee house, book store, house jam or house concert. I've hosted several house concerts, often with a jam after the concert. That can be vary nice.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 01:29 PM

"It was a strange experience, playing without a pint inside me."

I never drink before playing nor have I ever enjoyed hearing any paid performer play with a drink in him/her.

I've never offered my doctor, plumber or any tradesman a pint before they set about their work and would be disinclined to hire them if I thought they were too nervous for the job.

I have been driven out by musicians who put their drinking before their work.

Sorry. Just had to get that off my chest.

Ω
JIM

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 01:18 PM

In the US, different states...and even different counties or cities within a state...have different rules about a license to serve alcohol.
This is a carryover from religious restrictions and complicates the issue a lot. Most venues almost require folks to drive to get there, and we do have some serious alcohol abuse in urban areas where many vehicles are involved. Add to that the types of clubs which feature music which is not as ...ummmm...'restrained' as folk, and you have certain states or counties making it much harder and more expensive to obtain a license.

Since traditional 'pubs' are not as common here, much folk music happens in places like church basements or rented halls which just don't want to deal with even beer.
   I am fortunate to live in a large urban area where there ARE a number of venues for folk music that serve alcohol, but some states don't have a large enough folkie population to even push the issue.

It is gradually getting better, but it will probably be complicated for many years yet.

I DO like the freedom to have a beer when the music is happening....but I also hate to see some folks feel that music REQUIRES alcohol. Sadly, this often leads to a situation of excessive alcohol for some. If your lifestyle includes expecting to be drunk every weekend evening, then perhaps many years of 'tradition' need to be re-evaluated.
Not an easy issue to resolve, is it? I'd LOVE to see more freedom and folk-friendly pub venues here in the US....but few of them would be neighborhood places where many of the customers can walk home.

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Grab
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 01:17 PM

If you'd seen houses in the UK, you'd know why homes aren't gathering places over here. Most folks in the UK can get a maximum of maybe 20 people in their living room, standing elbow to elbow, if they're all pretty friendly with each other. That's why house concerts will simply never take off in the UK, because the only houses with rooms big enough will set you back £500k ($1m) upwards. Playing on the front "porch" ain't going to happen when many front porches open directly onto the road, and UK weather isn't exactly conducive to back porches either.

Churches used to be significant gathering places, but Britain is now about the most secular country in the world. Most of Britain never sees the inside of a church except for weddings and funerals (and possibly Christmas). The British have basically discovered that they can get along fine without religion.

Which leaves the pub, basically... :-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 12:19 PM

Ian - very good point. I think here in the United States, where the pub concept never caught on in the same fashion - probably due to the Puritans, our music has been associated with a variety of settings. The back porch, the front porch, the kitchen, the parlor - most places associated with home. In the earliest days of our country, the community gatherings focused on the house of worship and many of our folk organizations still use such spaces.

Interesting thoughts - the home and the church still seem to the primary centers of our folk community while the pub appears to the center of yours.

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Singing Referee
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 12:11 PM

Whoops, playing, had accident ♫ sorry!

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Singing Referee
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 12:08 PM

♧

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: IanC
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 11:26 AM

Ron

I think the problem is one of choice. In a UK pub, you can drink coffee, lemonade, ginger beer, fruit juice, beer cider, wine whisky ... whatever you want.

Certainly for 700 years, we've associated live participatory music (= folk) with pubs and the general atmosphere which goes with it. It's essentially part of the culture.

Drinking copious amounts, though popular, isn't necessarily a part of it.

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Maryrrf
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 10:10 AM

We were able to get our monthly concert series going with the help of a small independent coffee house owner who loved folk music. He usually wasn't open in the evenings, but agreed to open one Saturday night a month for us. We charged admission, which paid for the act, and he made a bit of money on the coffee drinks and snacks. Alas, Jerry was run out of business by a Starbucks. It was very sad. But by that time we had an established audience and moved to a synagogue which offered us a venue. Much nicer acoustically and it's working out very well. We still serve coffee and tea. In the States coffee IS associated with folk music, much more so than beer!

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 08:41 AM

I'm amazed that there seems to be a feeling among the Brits that having a pint is the only way to enjoy the music!   I love my pints too, but it seems that the music can be enjoyed just fine without it.

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 08:14 AM

<font color=red>red</font> looks like:

red

if you cut and paste from this post

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Grab
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 07:56 AM

I was most surprised when I went to the Windsor Ontario folk club with DDW (ex-Mudcat) and found that all you could drink was coffee! Even more so another time when he took me to a folk club round a friend's house which was similarly dry. It was a strange experience, playing without a pint inside me. And I'm not convinced by coffee as something that goes naturally with performing music - with the usual slight nerves beforehand, the last thing you want in your system is caffeine!

Graham.

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Fidjit
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 04:39 AM

In Norway they call Coffee houses "Kafetria/Cafeteria" But the slang word for them is, "Brun Cafe". Meaning that the place was well used with smoke filled walls/ceiling.

There's one in Oslo that still has it's juke box from the fifty's. The records have changed. Although out of respect "Rock Around the Clock" is still in there I believe.

Chas

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: IanC
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:16 AM

Don

I'm really interested that Charles II banned coffee houses in 1700. That's because he died in 1685.

Is the rest of the article as accurate?

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: open mike
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 01:01 AM

♫
♪♫
♣   ♫    ♣   ♫    ♣    ♫    ♣

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 09:29 PM

♪♫

If you can see the musical notes and Mick's shamrocks, you can make similar stuff & more using this guide

Colors are simply a matter of defining them. If you view the HTML 'source' of a page, you can see the patterns.

or, if you have a PC, you can cheat with this program, which merely automates the process...(using a bit more code) ☺☻☺☻

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 08:51 PM

Of course, there were never had house concerts back in the day. The poor Brits never experienced a coffeehouse.

Naturally times change. There aren't many buggy whip manufacturers around either.

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 08:04 PM

Ah, yes! The Age of Starbucks and the advent of the laptop computer. As someone once said, "the times they are a-changin'."

During the mid to late 1960s, with the coming of the "British Invasion," and increasing prevalence of "singer-songwriters" in the "Pop-Folk Revival," the coffeehouses like the ones where I usually sang began to close their doors because the audiences just weren't coming anymore. I think that was one of the ravages of traditional music becoming associated in many peoples' minds with "pop-folk," and then, in turn, with popular music in general. And when pop music tastes changed (in come the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Petula Clark, et. al.), traditional music was no longer "flavor of the month" and it went underground (still here!). But it was a great run while it lasted.

The coffeehouses in this area that featured folk singers generally opened at about 7:00 in the evening and stayed open 'til around midnight, or 1:00 a.m. on Fridays and Saturdays. And the singer didn't just sit at a table somewhere; there was usually a riser or small stage area. I generally started my first set about 8:00, and sang four or five 40 minute sets, sort of like a night club act, with twenty minutes between sets, allowing the wait-folks (how's that for "PC?") to circulate among the tables and ask people if they wanted to re-order (hint-hint). This kept a bit of circulation and change of audience going. People came to the coffeehouses mainly to listen to the singer, and justified their existence there to the coffeehouse owner by buying a $1.85 cup of coffee or chocolate and spending another buck or three on a piece of rich pastry.

Some coffeehouses were open during the day, but there was usually no singer around. This was when people would sit around talking and solving All the Problems of the World over coffee or tea, or play endless games of chess. Sometimes there would be someone sitting alone at a table, writing furiously on a yellow legal pad with a Ticonderoga No. 2 wooden pencil (another attempt at The Great American Novel). No laptops yet. If a particular coffeehouse that was open during the day featured a folk singer in the evening, they would usually close about 5:00 p.m., then re-open at about 7:00.

Starbucks is a whole different breed of cat. The one closest to where I live (Capitol Hill, down on Broadway) has a walk up window. You can plunk down your wad of bills and grab your latté without even going into the place.

They may be there, but I don't really know of any coffeehouses around now that feature entertainment in the evenings, like the ones where I used to sing. The ones in Seattle, anyway, were not really "hippy hangouts." They may have had a sort of artsy, Bohemian-style atmosphere, but they were more like non-alcoholic night clubs. They drew a lot of students, but they also drew the posh after-show or after-concert crowd. You'd see the occasional evening gown or tuxedo late in the evening.

I did a lot of concerts and sang on television from time to time, but my favorite venue was the coffeehouse. Maybe forty or fifty people, and you don't really need a PA system. Warm, intimate, good rapport with the audience.

Good times!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: GUEST,Peace:
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 07:16 PM

That was me, above. Friend's house. No kookey/cokeey/cuckee/cookey biscuit.

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 07:15 PM

As as we see, there's always one in every crowd. -:)

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: lefthanded guitar
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 06:41 PM

How did Mick get the colors?

Subject: RE: ? Venues are a changing.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 06:19 PM

You could add this bit: when coffee roasting arrived in Istanbul it didn't get an easy ride. The Old Testament forbids burnt foods and this Jewish prohibition was adopted by the Muslims. So was coffee really some sort of carbonized pagan sacrifice, or just a rather enthusiastically toasted food? Some local clerics got extremely hot under the turban over it. Part of the problem was that tobacco had arrived at almost the same time, so the Ottomans had two drug problems to cope with at once. Usually the two were consumed in the same places; suddenly there were hundreds of exotic dens where men drank black sludge in rooms so thick with smoke you couldn't see who was in there, which must have been a problem for the Sultan's secret police. (It was also seen as a problem that coffee might impair men's sexual urges). It took several months of committee meetings for the ulema to rule that it was sort of okay, maybe.

(Source: Bernard Lewis, "Istanbul and the Civilization of the Ottoman Empire".)

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Stewart
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 06:00 PM

Hi Don,

You might call these times "The Age of Starbucks."
I try to avoid those unfriendly, all-business,
move-the-customers-through-as-quickly-as-possible
places. Instead I go to the
small independent coffee houses (not hard to find
in Seattle, you are never more than a block away
from a coffee house here).
Still it can be a bit disconcerting playing music
in a coffee house to a half-dozen or more patrons
whose faces are glued to their lap top computers,
and are probably annoyed by the musical distraction.
But there are certainly some around here that are
friendly, comfortable places in which to relax,
have a cup of coffee and snack, and listen to some
good live music.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 05:04 PM

"Has anybody in the UK ever spotted one of those coffee-house thingies over here?

I have only the haziest idea what Americans mean when they talk about them. Sounds like a restaurant that serves neither hot food nor alcohol and has both floor spots and resident musicians, which here would stay solvent for about a week. Is Tchai Ovna in Glasgow along the lines they mean? (They only keep going by using premises on the edge of going the way of the House of Usher and furnishing the place from skips).

Anyway, we never had them here to abandon and we certainly aren't taking them up now."

Oh, dear!

Jack, let me now attempt to plug a hole in your knowledge of history regarding coffeehouses. The following is from a book I am writing about the folk music scene in the Pacific Northwest during the 1950s, 1960s, and beyond, as I saw it.

I first began singing regularly in coffeehouses in 1958. By way of background for the book, I put in a considerable amount of research on the history of coffee, and of the phenomenon of the coffeehouse, a most important institution in the gradual development of Civilization. Really!

Pour yourself a—er—cup of coffee—sit down, and prop up your feet. This is a fairly long post.

        As early as Homer, there were stories of a black and bitter brew that had the power to endow increased alertness on those who drank it, but it was not until much later that the details of the discovery of coffee comes into sharper focus.
        One of the many legends that surround the discovery of this universal solvent of intellectuality and sociability holds that sometime in the 9th century, in the part of north Africa now called Ethiopia, a young goat-herd named Kaldi noticed that his goats became particularly alert, frisky, and playful after eating the red berries that grew on certain leafy bushes. Kaldi tried a handful of the berries, and soon found himself experiencing a refreshing lift of spirits and a pleasant sense of heightened awareness. He eagerly recommended the berries to his fellow tribesmen, who subsequently agreed that Kaldi's discovery had indeed been a worthy one.
        News of these wonderful berries spread quickly. Local monks heard of them, tried them, and noticed that the berries had the salutary effect of producing more alertness and less dozing off during prayers. They dried the berries so they could be transported to other monasteries. There, the berries were reconstituted in water. The monks ate the berries and then drank the liquid.
        Coffee berries soon made their way from Ethiopia to the Arabian peninsula where they were first cultivated in what today is the country of Yemen. Coffee then traveled north to Turkey. The Turks were the first to roast the beans. Then they crushed them and boiled them in water. The result was pretty stout stuff, hardly what we today would call gourmet coffee, but it was well on its way. They sometimes added spices to the brew, such as anise, cloves, cinnamon, and cardamom.
        Venetian traders carried coffee to the European continent sometime in the 16th century. Once in Europe, enthusiastic imbibers regarded this new beverage as the Elixir of Life and the Invigorator of Thought.
        But, as frequently happens when humankind discovers something pleasurable, there emerged those people whose lips are stiff and whose faces are grim. These unhappy souls declared coffee to be "the beverage of infidels" and "the Drink of the Devil." Some members of the Catholic Church called for Pope Clement VIII to ban it. Consider their dismay when instead, the Pontiff, wide awake and alert because he'd already had his morning coffee, blessed it and declared it a truly Christian beverage.
        The first coffeehouse in Britain, called "The Angel," opened in 1652, not in London, but in Oxford. This is, perhaps, not surprising. After all, Oxford had been a college town since the 12th century. Soon thereafter, coffeehouses began flourishing in London. They swiftly became gathering spots for artists, poets, and philosophers, along with their disciples and groupies. Since coffee at these establishments cost a penny a cup, coffeehouses became known as "penny universities." James Boswell and Samuel Johnson were two well-known coffeehouse habitués.
        King Charles II considered coffeehouses to be hotbeds of discontent and a breeding ground for revolt, so in 1700 he banned them. This act nearly caused a revolt. The turmoil was so great that eleven days later he rescinded the ban.
        In 1732, Johann Sebastian Bach composed his "Coffee Cantata." The work is an ode to coffee. At the same time, it takes a poke at a movement extant in Germany at the time that sought to forbid women to drink coffee because some people thought it made women sterile.
        In the late sixteen-hundreds coffeehouses made their way to the New World: to Boston, New York, and Philadelphia, where they prospered just as they had in England. They were also patronized by musicians, artists, poets and other suspicious and undesirable characters. Such as Tom Paine and Ben Franklin. In fact, when the United States were still "The Colonies," the Continental Congress, in protest against the excessive tax the British levied on tea, declared coffee to be the national drink.
        So when coffeehouses sprang up like mushrooms in the dank undergrowth of the 1950s, they were nothing really new; they were just another phase of a centuries-old tradition. This renaissance spread through the previous sites: New York, Boston, and Philadelphia; then it vaulted across the continent to California, particularly to San Francisco, Berkeley, and Los Angeles.
        Coffeehouses tended to pop up near college campuses. Many of them became hangouts for students, mostly fledgling artists, writers, poets, and musicians. And hordes of chess players. Occasionally someone with a guitar might be quietly strumming away in a corner. Some places discouraged this sort of thing, but many did not. Many coffeehouses had a small stage, and on certain afternoons or evenings, a jazz combo might be trying out a few things. Or a string quartet, composed of student musicians with dreams of Carnegie Hall would hone their performing skills before a live audience by giving an informal recital. Or there might be a poetry reading. Or poetry and jazz. Some places had a more-or-less resident folksinger. Folksingers were not all that common then, but their numbers were rapidly increasing.
        Most coffeehouses didn't serve just coffee. They generally featured a variety of coffees: a demitasse of espresso, strong enough to take the enamel off your teeth and served with a twist of lemon to bring out the flavor(!); a rich and robust Swedish coffee; a dark, French roast; Turkish, thick, rich, and sweet; café au lait; cappuccino, and many others. In addition to these potent potions, the menu included a long list of teas, from English breakfast tea to aromatic brews with strange and exotic names, like "Oolong" and "Darjeeling." There were chocolate libations, from a regular (but very rich) hot chocolate, to café mocha, to mixtures that contained such components as orange rind, cinnamon, and other spices.
        And they often served light meals, such as sandwiches of various kinds (a bit more elaborate than peanut butter and jelly or ham and cheese), cheese boards (a variety of cheeses and slices of exotic breads along with fruit, such as orange sections or apple slices), and a variety of exotic pastries, sufficiently elegant to delight the most dissolute of sybarites.

© Copyright 2008, Donald Richard Firth

I don't know how things were in the British Isles, but in the United States, and I believe Canada as well (someone correct me if I'm wrong), starting in the mid to late 1950s, a strong association developed between coffeehouses and folk music. The first coffeehouse folksingers were often college students and they frequently sang for tips. But as more coffeehouses came into existence, a level of competition developed, and many of them hired regular singers. The pay was nowhere near what a singer might earn in a nightclub, but picking up anywhere from ten to twenty-five dollars per evening for singing four or five sets a couple nights a week was not bad. Many well-known singers cut their teeth and polished their acts in coffeehouses. For example, when I was singing at "The Place Next Door" in Seattle for $15.00 a night, Joan Baez as singing at the "Club 47" in Boston/Cambridge for $10.00 a night. And as far as the coffeehouses making money, they were usually jam-packed on weekends.

In a fascinating book entitled Around the World in Six Glasses, author Tom Standage, explains how early farmers saved surplus grain by fermenting it into beer, the Greeks took grapes and made wine, and Arabs learned how to distill spirits. Water was often unsafe to drink because of the prevalence of water-born diseases, and not knowing that the cause was bacteria, which could be killed by boiling the water, most people tended to avoid water and drank beer or wine, in which the alcohol killed the germs.

Which is to say, most people wandered about half-spashed most of the time!

When coffee spread from Arabia to Europe and coffeehouses became popular gathering places, for the first time in history since the early discovery of fermentation, people were drinking something which was not only safe to drink (boiling having killed the bacteria), but didn't send them into a foggy stupor! Suddenly, lots of people were alert and could think clearly! Standage credits coffee with being the Universal Solvent that brought about what we now call the Age of Enlightenment. He refers to coffeehouses as being "the Internet of the Age of Reason, facilitating scientific and rational thought."

So it seems that Charles II was right to be apprehensive about coffeehouses. The "Rights of Man" movement started over cups of coffee.

Respectfully presented for your enlightenment, edification, and general amusement.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 04:20 PM

We visted a Coffe House in Phoenix, Arizona, which was recommended to us by Bill Zorn. We had a great evening, the names of everyone were placed in a hat and on your name being pulled it was your turn to do a song. I have rarely experienced such enthusiasm - probably because they didn't have the hideous "wesident" system operated in folk clubs in the UK!

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Stewart
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 03:35 PM

I'm still looking for that small perfectly-acoustic venue, which needs no sound system, and with an appreciative audience and no "coffee schooser thing" disturbing the music.

And that "wee folk festival" sounds intriguing (is that a festival for wee folks, or a wee festival for folks?).

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 02:19 PM

Just remember though. No matter how many times the owner tells you that it's only 50 seats and you won't need any gear..... he'll start that coffee scoosher thing up right before the last line of your quietest piece.
Guaranteed!

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Dan Keding
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 02:04 PM

Neighbors,

I agree that the smaller clubs and coffeehouses are much more performer friendly. Venues change but often new audiences come with the change - take bookstores for example.

Most of my gigs are as a storyteller (have been for over twenty years now) but even in that art I see the smaller venue as an advantage.
Storytelling festivals seem to be healthy right now but as we all know that can change. Libraries and schools are still a big part of most storytellers gig list.

Enjoy each audience.

Dan

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 01:59 PM

You folks are astonneshing/astonesheng/aschtonishing incredible.

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 01:56 PM

Any chord required?

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 01:11 PM

***guffaw***