Venues are a changing.

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Maryrrf
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 10:10 AM

We were able to get our monthly concert series going with the help of a small independent coffee house owner who loved folk music. He usually wasn't open in the evenings, but agreed to open one Saturday night a month for us. We charged admission, which paid for the act, and he made a bit of money on the coffee drinks and snacks. Alas, Jerry was run out of business by a Starbucks. It was very sad. But by that time we had an established audience and moved to a synagogue which offered us a venue. Much nicer acoustically and it's working out very well. We still serve coffee and tea. In the States coffee IS associated with folk music, much more so than beer!

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: IanC
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 11:26 AM

Ron

I think the problem is one of choice. In a UK pub, you can drink coffee, lemonade, ginger beer, fruit juice, beer cider, wine whisky ... whatever you want.

Certainly for 700 years, we've associated live participatory music (= folk) with pubs and the general atmosphere which goes with it. It's essentially part of the culture.

Drinking copious amounts, though popular, isn't necessarily a part of it.

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Singing Referee
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 12:08 PM

♧

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Singing Referee
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 12:11 PM

Whoops, playing, had accident ♫ sorry!

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 12:19 PM

Ian - very good point. I think here in the United States, where the pub concept never caught on in the same fashion - probably due to the Puritans, our music has been associated with a variety of settings. The back porch, the front porch, the kitchen, the parlor - most places associated with home. In the earliest days of our country, the community gatherings focused on the house of worship and many of our folk organizations still use such spaces.

Interesting thoughts - the home and the church still seem to the primary centers of our folk community while the pub appears to the center of yours.

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Grab
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 01:17 PM

If you'd seen houses in the UK, you'd know why homes aren't gathering places over here. Most folks in the UK can get a maximum of maybe 20 people in their living room, standing elbow to elbow, if they're all pretty friendly with each other. That's why house concerts will simply never take off in the UK, because the only houses with rooms big enough will set you back £500k ($1m) upwards. Playing on the front "porch" ain't going to happen when many front porches open directly onto the road, and UK weather isn't exactly conducive to back porches either.

Churches used to be significant gathering places, but Britain is now about the most secular country in the world. Most of Britain never sees the inside of a church except for weddings and funerals (and possibly Christmas). The British have basically discovered that they can get along fine without religion.

Which leaves the pub, basically... :-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 01:18 PM

In the US, different states...and even different counties or cities within a state...have different rules about a license to serve alcohol.
This is a carryover from religious restrictions and complicates the issue a lot. Most venues almost require folks to drive to get there, and we do have some serious alcohol abuse in urban areas where many vehicles are involved. Add to that the types of clubs which feature music which is not as ...ummmm...'restrained' as folk, and you have certain states or counties making it much harder and more expensive to obtain a license.

Since traditional 'pubs' are not as common here, much folk music happens in places like church basements or rented halls which just don't want to deal with even beer.
   I am fortunate to live in a large urban area where there ARE a number of venues for folk music that serve alcohol, but some states don't have a large enough folkie population to even push the issue.

It is gradually getting better, but it will probably be complicated for many years yet.

I DO like the freedom to have a beer when the music is happening....but I also hate to see some folks feel that music REQUIRES alcohol. Sadly, this often leads to a situation of excessive alcohol for some. If your lifestyle includes expecting to be drunk every weekend evening, then perhaps many years of 'tradition' need to be re-evaluated.
Not an easy issue to resolve, is it? I'd LOVE to see more freedom and folk-friendly pub venues here in the US....but few of them would be neighborhood places where many of the customers can walk home.

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 01:29 PM

"It was a strange experience, playing without a pint inside me."

I never drink before playing nor have I ever enjoyed hearing any paid performer play with a drink in him/her.

I've never offered my doctor, plumber or any tradesman a pint before they set about their work and would be disinclined to hire them if I thought they were too nervous for the job.

I have been driven out by musicians who put their drinking before their work.

Sorry. Just had to get that off my chest.

Ω
JIM

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Stewart
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 02:06 PM

Jim Lad - I agree, it's nice to have a pint of beer, but only after I perform.

And here in the States, pubs are much different places. I've played in several in Seattle.

An Irish session in a nice Irish pub, the room is very nice and free Guinness is good, good food too, but the occasional (or not so occasional) drunk or alcoholic musician, the noise particularly after a game (it is walking distance from two major sports stadiums), makes it less than desirable.

A musician's showcase in another Irish pub (but you wouldn't know it was Irish), musicians playing mostly to other musicians, most of the other patrons more interested in the game on TV (that rousing cheer in the middle of your song is simply because of a score in the game) or pool table or other gaming machines, very noisy room with poor acoustics and not very good sound system. Again not the best place for music.

A fisherman's pub, a large room, fairly good acoustics (after the TV is turned off), but only musicians listening to other musicians on an otherwise quiet week night (few other patrons), and the owner making little money from the musicians decides to cancel our music and bring in a rock band.

So that leaves the coffee house, book store, house jam or house concert. I've hosted several house concerts, often with a jam after the concert. That can be vary nice.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:12 PM

Graham - I wasn't suggesting that the U.K. should adapt U.S. folk venue standards, just pointing out the differences. As you pointed out, there would be issues of having such concerts in your country. Our bars and taverns do not serve the same purpose as your pubs either.

While our houses might be larger and spread out in many areas, I've attended "house" concerts in NYC apartments.   20 people in a room would be fine for some performers - our house concerts usually draw 20 to 50 depending on how large of a home.

As for churches, besides what the media portrays as the religious right, I think most Americans also rarely visit a house of worship - or at least not on a regular basis.   I can safely say I've attended more concerts in churches in the last year then I have worship services in the last 30!   That is just me, and I wasn't bragging - but I do think it is typical of the majority of our folkie audiences.

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:37 PM

Small churches make wonderful venues and provide a most intimate experience for worship. There is much more to it than just the acoustics though with regards to it not being done in the U.K.
As for house concerts... I have to agree that houses in Britain are much too small although 20 guests at a house concert is a reasonable figure.
I'd be quite happy with that and would expect to sell 20 albums.
Get into the community hall and you can expect to sell one album for every 10 patrons.
Coffee shops... again, not going to sell so much (around 10%) as a house concert but still decent.

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Maryrrf
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:39 PM

Churches or synagogues are sometimes willing to let their premises be used as venues, and often their fee is very reasonable. They have the chairs, space, etc. so that's where a lot of small concerts are held. The audience doesn't have to be religious by any means.

Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing.
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:40 PM

Holy Smoke!!!

IanC, thank you for pointing out the boo-boo! I don't know where that 1700 figure came from unless I screwed up in my first draft. I checked and came up with this:

In 1675, Charles II 'called for the suppression of all coffee-houses in London as being places where the disaffected met, and spread scandalous reports concerning the conduct of his Majesty and his Ministers'. The uproar that followed forced Charles to cancel this edict.

From HERE.

I'm going to dig through my files and re-re-check my original sources.   If you spotted any other goofs, please let me know. And again, thank you!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: ? Venues are a changing.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:54 PM

Grab, it's quite common for older Scottish flats to have some much larger rooms than English ones. The nothing-special Glasgow tenement flat I used to live in (living room, one bedroom, kitchen, bathroom) had the living room big enough that I once had two sets of an eightsome reel going at once without even moving all the furniture. I could have seated at least as many people as the Wee Folk Club at the Royal Oak in Edinburgh does.

Being the part of Glasgow that it was, my neighbour in the ground floor flat had his living room furnished with a bar counter complete with tap and keg fitting so he could use it as a practice space for an Orange flute band.

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Stewart
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:57 PM

Then there's the grange hall. Most rural communities in the US have an old grange hall, and many have been restored and are used for folk music and dancing. Just put "grange hall folk music" into google and you'll find many of those. They're usually small wooden buildings with fantastic acoustics (no sound system necessary) and a great community feeling.

Across from Seattle on Bainbridge Island is a great grange hall venue hosting the Seabold Second Saturday Open Mic (no mic). A great venue - only problem, for us mainlanders we have to leave early to catch the ferry back home, and it's so popular you enter a lottery and may or may not get to play that evening.

Cheers, S, in Seattle

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 04:48 PM

Think I had that album... "The Clancy Brothers & Tommy Makem in Person at Jack Campin's Single End"

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 05:00 PM

I've guzzled downright unhealthy amounts of coffee while singing in coffeehouses and never had a problem as far as nerves are concerned. The only problem was that after finishing a gig near midnight, I sometimes didn't get to sleep until 4:00 a.m. So I started cutting back a bit. But it never did bother my nerves.

One evening, the owner of "The Place Next Door" (next door to the Guild 45th theater—played foreign and art films—and owned by the same guy, hence, "the place next door.") brought me a new drink he'd been working on. In addition to specialty coffees, teas, pastries, sandwiches, and such, he had a couple of fruit-flavored fizzy drinks on the menu, and this was an addition he was concocting. It was very tasty. But (and this would definitely not be served to the customers because of booze licenses and such) the one he gave me was laced with vodka. I guess I was pretty entertaining that night because he said that he thought I should stay a little juiced all the time!

I never had all that much problem with nerves, fortunately. The first time I sang for a crowd of any size (1955), I thought there would be maybe twenty or twenty-five people there and when I walked in, the audience was more like 250! My hands were trembling so hard that the guitar accompaniment to my first song was pretty sloppy, but they applauded enthusiastically, and once I realized they weren't going to lynch me, I was okay.

Another time was before I did my first television show (1959). This was before videotape was in widespread use, and at the time KCTS was a low-budget educational station (now, it's a big PBS affiliate). Studio videotape machines cost about $50,000, and they couldn't afford one yet, so my show was live! We were well rehearsed and I knew exactly what I was going to do, but during the half-hour before we went on the air, I had to go down the hall and pee about six times. Fortunately the show went off like clockwork because I was in a stupor.

Sally, the producer, spotted my nervousness and we chatted a bit. She said, "You're probably thnking about the thousands of people who are watching, right?" I allowed as how that was so. She said, "You don't get nervous if you're singing for just a couple of people, do you?" Well, no. "Okay," she said, "just remember that you're coming through a television set, and there are usually no more than a couple of people watching a single set. So, there you are. It sometimes helps if you sing the show to someone you know is watching."

Thank, you, Sally! The next show I was keyed up, but not nervous. I started felling like an old hand at it.

One of the best pieces of advice I ever got about nerves is when I auditioned to get into the University of Washington School of Music. I was auditioning for Dr. Stanley Chappell, the head of the school. I got through the first few measures of a fairly easy classic guitar piece, then completely blew it. Came unglued. Dr. Chappell stopped me. He knew how much this meant to me and completely understood. So we chatted a bit, and he said, "The main reason young musicians get nervous in auditions or have stage-fright—other than not being well prepared—is that they're thinking more about what the audience will think of them than they are about the music they're performing. Now, I want you to ignore me and think about the music and what it expresses. Okay, let's try it again."

This time I played it reasonably well, and Dr. Chappell okayed my admission to the school. I learned a lot there, but I think that was one of the most important things.

I don't drink that much coffee anymore. Too much, even decaf, and it bothers my stomach. Onset of geezerhood, I guess.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Carol
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 05:04 PM

Sorry but how come you've lost the ♫ ?

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 05:07 PM

Who knows?
Somebody probably complained about the fun.
Wish they'd jump on some of the offensive stuff as quickly.

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Brendy
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 11:31 PM

"What I'm experiencing now is that a whole number of cafes are being run by 50 & ups who happen to be former folk musicians"

If you take the word 'cafe' and replace it with any other type of social gathering point, then reiterate with Stewart's point that "...the key is an owner who loves the music.", then I think that is a fairly good reading of the way that it is going at the present.

Banjiman notes that "... luckily we still have some pubs left that are prepared to put on/ allow real music...", but again the key to it all is the engagement and enthusiasm of the owner of the place; one who is more interested in 'providing' than in 'selling' the product.

"I'm really tired of playing pubs to counter the fact that folk clubs can't afford very much" I think the term 'playing pubs' generates a negative attitude towards that end of the entertainment spectrum; some of it is justified, but moreso because of the audience one expects in the places, who generally speaking want nothing else only the 'Come All Ye...' songs.

The trick, there, is to get those eejits out of the place on the nights you want to run a 'Folk Club' in the place.

Pubs operate on a monthly/quarterly budget.
If they don't they're not good managers.
Those that provide entertainment, also have a monthly/--- budget: Their accountant takes their ingoings with outgoings, subtracts one from the other and tells you how much you can spend on Entertainment.
Most of the Friday/Sat night crowd will not be there when you have the 'Tuesday Night Folk Club', or whatever, in that pub, and if the thing is advertised well enough , especially by the pub, as part of their 'Entertainment Schedule', then the whole thing is a lot more integrated; no different from 'Darts Night'

There are a lot of Folk musicians who make excuses for the music, that it is outside the mainstream and somehow inferior because of it, but the main judges of that should be the public.
How the public have it presented to them is also a key to it's success.

The kids are coming on fine, yes, but as you say, Jim, they're turning their heads away from the traditional, and, personally, I don't think that is a particularly good direction for the pendulum to swing, because as Peace says "...folk has not exposed itself to the newer generations. It was not presented and found lacking. It's just not been presented in a medium the kids use."... and, because the new proprietors of these 'new' Folk Clubs (the above mentioned 50's and upwards), are not of the IT generation, the kids (who most definitely are), have the ups on us.

I think now with Pub Culture going mad in Britain, the (on the whole) gentler, folk music audience, will take their music away from the pubs themselves.

Coffee-houses, Book stores, Irish and English pubs the World over (if they designate a night for it....and promote the damn thing...), will be the inheritors of the 'Folk Club' mantle in future years.

B.

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 01:11 AM

Allow me to rephrase in such a manner that no-one will come along and feel the need to interpret this for me.

"I am sick of playing in pubs."

There! I think that came out just right.
Cheers!
Jim

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Brendy
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 01:18 AM

What is it about playing in pubs that you don't like, Jim?

B.

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 02:41 AM

I'm sick of it!

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Brendy
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 02:43 AM

Oh.

B.

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 02:47 AM

Aye!

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 03:00 AM

On the bright side.
Tonight I'll be the feature at the "Coffee House" in the local community hall which is actually a well preserved "Settler's Cabin".
It's a one room, log cabin and there will be somewhere between 20 & 30 in attendance.
The pot bellied wood stove will be burning next to the stage. Tea, coffee and cakes laid out at the back of the room and someone may remember to take donations at the door. There will be a few locals doing the warm up (my favourite part of these evenings) and there will be children of all ages.
Looking forward to that.

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 04:58 PM

Sounds ideal, Jim!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Venues are a changing.
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 04:14 PM

How did the evening go, Jim?


Best wishes,

Peter