BS: an insight regarding autism

Subject: BS: an insight regarding autism?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 04:08 PM

It has always been said that autism concerns the wiring.

Armed with one new bit of information about autism which is that autistic brains are larger, I had what seems to be an interesting idea. When I say larger I mean quite a bit larger. A four year old autistic brain is as large as a normal 7 year old brain.

When it comes to certain cells be they neurons or muscles the old axiom is true, if we don't use it we lose it.

We are born with near total redundancy when it comes to neurons. Even tiny muscle fibers are "double" wired. The fine tuning of muscles and brain cells actually involves disolving the less powerful or less used redundant neuron until there is just one to serve the intended purpose. There are certain proteins that do this job which in turn must be switched on by something in our genome.

You see, autistic brains stay double or triple wired. They are not refineing down to one connection per purpose. If you have experience with autism this may ring a bell regarding certain reactions and behaviors. While there is great intelligence there is also great confusion which sometimes reaches the point of overwhelming the entire consciousness.

Anyway this might already be old hat but I thought it best to write it down before a migraine washes this idea frpm the front of the mind.

There is no cause or cure in this insight but looking for the gene and the protein respondsible for eliminating the redundant nerve cells could be a good direction for research to go.

Also it might be good to know how autistic people react to diseases that limit or kills certain neuronal connections. While MS is not one of those degenerative nerve cell syndromes it too may be less severe in autistic people by virtue of the redundancy that is perpetually retained.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 04:12 PM

This may also explain why seemingly normal kids start to display autism at certain early ages corresponding to rapid brain growth.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 04:28 PM

Have you seen any credible evidence that explains why the numbers of autism cases had risen so dramatically over the course of the last few years?

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 04:42 PM

My wife is in childhood development and pathology and seems brainswashed to the idea that mercury in vaccines could not possibly cause autism. I am in the opposite camp while I do share her view that we certainly can diagonose the syndrome far better and more often today.

I speculate that chemical pollution or a neuro toxin might interfers with future nerve cell development within our damaged gamete cells but that isn't proven. Nor would chemical companies want it proven.

This may not be so far out since 100% of all American men have PCB in their gamete cells (sperm)
The PCB moves in and kicks out one DNA rung on the ladder and sits there. IF detected the DNA should reject it when replication occurs but apparently it misses it and lets PCB stay in the gamete chromosme.

All bug poisons act on the nervous system of the bug to kill bugs.
Maybe it acts on ours too.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Wesley S
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 04:43 PM

It seems to affect boys 4 to 1 over girls too. I've seen maps that overlap areas of metals pollution with large populations of autistic kids. I know my son has a problem processing metals out of his system.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 04:48 PM

If the PCB idea ever had credible evidence, General Electric (the source of virtually all PCB contamination) would have a lot of 'splainin' to do and enough lawsuits to last 1000 years.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Becca72
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 04:53 PM

vaccines have been used for, what, well over 70 years and yet the number of cases of autism is increasing dramatically. That makes me question any link between the two. What else is happening to make the numbers rise so much?

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 04:55 PM

So, that's probably why it isn't happening, right?

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 04:56 PM

Genetics has been seen as the cause, but perhaps the genetics is being changed rapidly by the dissoltion of information on the Y chromosme due to PCBs or some other factor.


Like denying global warming there are those (paid agents) who call the autism explosion rubbish.
http://www.autismwebsite.com/ari/newsletter/explosion.htm


Unintended unforseen consequences can be a bitch.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 05:03 PM

I thought the explosion in autism was a well established fact. How, otherwise, would you explain all of the new cases?

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 05:07 PM

One would reason however that a random loss of a couple of pairs of sugars in an entire gene would result in a specific abnormality every 1 in 400 times.

We need to look at gamete cells for missing info on the Y chromosome to see what we can find.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 05:10 PM

Yeah its as real as global warming. One could argue that there may even be a tipping point for the human genome.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 05:21 PM

I went to the web-site, but it wasn't clear to me why the CDC didn't use the resources Congress gave them to research the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 06:37 PM

This just popped up in the news, but I don't know if the link will work.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080109/ap_on_he_me/autism_gene;_ylt=AiqmrX8OuLMdS.0uqCTrcNis0NUE

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 08:45 PM

It says gene #16 is missing.

This is along my line of thinking that PCB substitution could cause genes to go missing. Finding out if research is being done on this question should not be too hard.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 09:02 PM

Well, that takes me back to my previous question. If Congress appropriated money to spend on this research, do we know what happened to the money? I mean, assuming the research wasn't done.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 09:12 PM

Yes Congress knows. I personally know the people who check. And yes when research is either sloppy or not done reserchers don't get any more money or they don't get paid at all. The checkers state the contractor is in default and the researcher gets nothing or they can default the contract "for the convenience of the goverment" ( actual terminology)

If on the other hand if you are asking about a specific research project, then I don't know.

yet

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 11:02 PM

The Mayo Clinic says estimates are that 3 to 6 of every 1000 children have autism. "A recent increase in the number of autism cases in the United States may be the result of improved diagnosis and changes in diagnostic criteria."
"The severity of symptoms is variable"

My guess- The improved diagnostic techniques are picking up cases that would have remained undiagnosed and that accounts for the increase. But I dunno.

Many with mild symproms can function almost normally, and would not have been recognized in the past. Perhaps the kids we once regarded as just peculiar, or were 'behind the door when the brains were passed out' were autistic.

A good general summary here: Autism

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 11:11 PM

Interesting theories, Don. Worth pursuing, IMO.

There also seems to have been an upswing in ADHD/ADD, whatever. It also affects more boys than girls, but again, I have no idea if there is an acutal increase in the percentages or an increase in diagnostic tools.

These were probably the kids (boys mostly) who dropped out of school as early as possible, helped Dad on the farm or went into the military as early as possible.

There also does seem to be some genetic link to the ADHD/ADD but no one (that I know of) has been able to pinpoint it.

I DO know that when I get a migraine (no aura with mine) I am hypersensitive to everything--sound, light, color, touch, smell, etc. Just everything. I can't imagine living like that even without the acutal pain of the migraine.

IF that is how autism is (or sometimes is) no wonder these kids withdraw.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 11:21 PM

If the Mayo Clinic is doing research, it's probably well documented--most of us would be surprised if it wasn't. But what Donuel seems to be describing is a "contractor." It just seems like something is missing--like Blackwater is involved, or something.

             The ADD-ADHD thing is weird as well. And most of the victims are boys in all cases. Donuel's supposition seems to make sense, at least to me, but I don't have any background in this kind of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 11:29 PM

Rigin, I have known girls who were diagnosed as ADD/ADHD, but it isn't common at all. It does seem to be a 'sex linked' thing in most cases.

I'm also beginning to question a lot of the diagnoses. Do these kids REALLY have a problem or is it our culture, society, education sysmtem, etc?

They aren't 'stupid' they just need different techniques to learn. I'm considering the right brain/left brain indicators also. It appears that the dominant side of the brain determines just how we learn and the methods are not the same.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Bee
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 12:24 AM

I've worked with ADD/ADHD, autism spectrum and Asperger's diagnosed girls - and boys.

I am on the 'weren't diagnosed in the past' side. Doctors labelled them FLKs (funny looking kid - we know something seems wrong but we have no idea what) or they were 'bad' kids in school or they dropped out in Grade six.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 12:44 AM

Most autistic kids have a serious, receptive language disability. This indicates auditory processing difficulties.

I think we will have to take a close look at auditory input and the pathway to the brain.

Imagine living in a world where your visual perception was accompanied by an auditory delay so that the information you see does not match what you hear. A world where every tonal change caused pain or loud sounds were garbled and indistinguishable. In this world, you may not even know if the sound is directed at you. Maybe you have no way of filtering sound.

Thats why a very structured, visual schedule is important to autistic students. Its very hard for them to make any sense of an auditory world and while this is not a 'hearing' problem, we know very little about what causes damage to the auditory nerves and the pathways that allow us to communicate.

Hearing and language begin in the womb. Damage can occur at any time and in our noisy world, I often wonder if auditory trauma could cause autism. I'm just glad that these kids are being diagnosed and treatments are being explored. I think its much more humane than putting them in asylums. Thats what would have happened not so long ago. Luckily, we now recognize that autistic children show a wide range of intelligence and we are learning how to meet their needs.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 06:27 AM

The "explosion" in autism is probably in diagnosis. Simply, the definition has got a lot broader. Whereas only acute cases, involving total withdrawal, counted before, marginal conditions (like my friend's child, who is a bit "odd" and has learning difficulties) are now included. A second reason is that 50 years ago parents would have fought against such a diagnosis, as it often involved institutionalisation and even shame on the parents' part. Now in many countries it attracts special education and even welfare assistance for carers, and it is much more attractive to parents.

Note that I'm not saying that they somehow "aren't really" autistic.

I might add that the same is probably true of chronic conditions like Sorcha's comments on migraines. In the past, you only had migraine (or backpain, or irritable bowel syndrome) if you could afford it. Poorer sufferers would often be considered malingerers. Same caveat as above.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 06:45 AM

I find the diagnosis angle easier to believe, but in a real close second place is Donuel's analysis of weird things introduced into the environment. Maybe these kids are victims of the same kinds of things that cause the six legged frogs we read about from time to time.

                  Another thing I think it is important to point out is, Bee's "funny looking kid" syndrome--or maybe funny acting kid might be more acurate. 30 years ago these kids could go into the work force and make a living as adults. Those opportunities really aren't out there any more. If they have trouble with verbal skills, the jobs that are available to them will not support themselves, let alone a family.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Bee
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 09:17 AM

Absolutely right on the work force changes, Riginslinger. For some reason I have very clear memories of all the children in my Grade Six class (don't ask me who I went to high school with - haven't a clue). A peculiarity of the Canadian system at the time (1962) was that the 'Baby Bonus', a universal small amount of money per child sent to every Canadian family, was only available until your child hit eighteen if the child stayed in school. So poorer parents would make sure their kids went to school regardless of whether they did well, and the school system would stall kids who weren't making the grade at Grade Six.

There were five boys I remember, from fourteen to sixteen years old, in my class. I would guess at least a couple of them were ADD or mildly autistic or just dyslexic, maybe all of them, as none of them were obviously intellectually handicapped. But at the time, no diagnosis other than 'bad' or 'not too bright' would have been applied to them. At sixteen, they could go to work, and they did, in the woods or on construction sites or in the mines.

As a side note on 'how things change': a couple of those boys would sometimes bring pellet guns or 22s to school so they could hunt rabbits at lunch time, leaving them outside (the guns and the rabbits) the building. Once in a while, if they had a little money, a couple of them would visit the moonshiner up the road, buy a bottle, and drink it at lunch time - they usually didn't make the afternoon classes on those days. No adult appeared to care or even comment on these behaviours.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 09:32 AM

one new bit of information about autism which is that autistic brains are larger,

I'd question very much whether that is actually the case across the range of autistic people.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 09:44 AM

Bee - Where in the world did you go to school? Our grade school went through 8 grades, and 8th grade boys would bring lever action rifles to school (30-30's, 25-35's, 35 Remingtons, and etc.) and go deer hunting after school. They were very careful with their guns, nobody ever got hurt or threatened, and I can't recall anybody even being alarmed in any way.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 09:52 AM

Bee - The boys you describe were probably not autistic although they may have been learning disabled. Autism cuts across socio-economic boundaries. Its unlikely that an autistic child would be able to form even a dysfunctional friendship.

You're right about diagnosis. Autism is now an umbrella diagnosis that covers a wide range of abilities. At the very high end are those kids with Aspberger's syndrome. Next comes high-functioning autism and so on. The diagnosis and treatment and educational methods for autism are quite different than traumatic brain injury, hearing impairment, learning disabilities, ADD or ADHD. None of which are under the umbrella of autism.

My question is, why does Silicon Valley have such a high incidence of Autism and why does the downtown core of Vancouver, B.C. have such a high incidence? Is there a correlation between computer geeks and their autistic off-spring? The patterns are just beginning to emerge.

Donuel - I don't think the brain will yield any answers. I think we have to look at the auditory nerves leading to the brain. The answer is probably rooted in the ability to process language.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 10:24 AM

"My question is, why does Silicon Valley have such a high incidence of Autism and why does the downtown core of Vancouver, B.C. have such a high incidence?"


                  It could be genetic--boy wouldn't that make a good story line for a science fiction movie. Computer geeks get smarter and smarter with every generation until the get so internally involved they can no longer communicate with anybody.

                  Or, it could be something related to what Donuel was talking about--chemical encroachment into the environment. A place name Silicon Valley really makes you wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 10:44 AM

Geeks who may be somewhere in the spectrum of autism work in less social occupations which lends itself to science and technology.
They might marry other geeks and have more autistic kids.

Even the Simpsons character who plays the scientist is autistic "GLAAVIN" !:^}

The science fiction part might be my idea that PCB is eroding the human genome by effectively putting in random blanks in our genetic code. Then again there may some grain of truth to it. The other factor is that evolving to larger brains has a catch to it. One may be smarter but that is offset by overlapping signal confusion.

Once a kid has too many connections throughour the brain it would show itself in auditory visual movement and all sorts of sensory confusion.

When I observe my son one, aspect of autism is what I call Getting Overwhelmed. There seems to be a magnification of senses that is ecstatic when pleasant but the unpleasant is multiplied into overload mode.

A preventative cure seems far away and gene therapy could be dangerous since you are dealing with a gene and protein that selectively dissolves "uneeded" neurons.

Whew that would be a science fiction tradgedy if the medicne dissolved TOO MUCH.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Bee
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 11:05 AM

Dianavan, I'm quite familiar with the more obvious markers of autism. Not all the boys I described were 'friend makers', though several were. At least one lad would certainly be descibed as mildly autistic today, the others: learning disabilities, hyperactivity, etc.

Riginslinger: rural Cape Breton, but the school was within a small community where deer would be uncommon and it would be dangerous to shoot at large prey. Rabbits, OTOH, were plentiful in the nearby overgrown old fields and scrubby woodland.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 11:17 AM

A preventative cure... could be dangerous since you are dealing with a gene and protein that selectively dissolves "uneeded" neurons.
    ...that would be a science fiction tradgedy if the medicne dissolved TOO MUCH.


                Yes, you could end up with a generation of Republicans!

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 12:10 PM

"Its unlikely that an autistic child would be able to form even a dysfunctional friendship."

Dianavan - From my own personal experience with my 7 year old son I'd have to dispute that. It's just that we may have to redefine how we describe friendship. There are people that my son looks forward to seeing on a regular basis. He enjoys their company. Does he walk up and say hello? No - he's non-verbal. Does he give out hugs when he greets people - not unless he's asked. But he does snuggle and seek out physical contact once he's in his element. The range of symptoms shown by autistic people is vast. They are extremly difficult to pigeonhole. But that's just one fathers viewpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 12:51 PM

Phew, I know Spaw would agree with you on that, Wesley. His Tristan is verbal and demonstrative. He really looks forward to his "friends" who drive the big city trucks and they are quite good with him. He also loves having the neighbour kid over and vice versa.

I watched an interesting movie the other day. It was "Snow Cake" and starred Sigourney Weaver with Alan Rickman. Weaver played a very verbal autistic woman. I *think* she did a good job, but don't have much experience with autistic adults, so I don't know. I'd be interested in what others think of it, those who have more experience. We got the move through netflix.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 12:56 PM

I've seen the preview of that movie so I bought it the other day. I plan to watch it soon. I might even start it today. I'm at home watching my mother in law who had foot surgery and is still unsteady on her feet. I'd rather be watching Sigourney Weaver.....

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 01:30 PM

There's an analogy between autism and other conditions, such as blindness.

Being blind means you can't see properly. But you might be blind for a whole range of different reasons; and there are degrees of blindness - some people can see the difference between light and dark, for example, and others cannot.

Yes, there are things in common between the life experience of blind people, and the things that can get in the way of that or can help - but talking in terms of a single cause for all blindness doesn't make much sense.

The same is true in relation to the life experience and the requirements of the different people with the label "autistic", and about talking in terms of a common cause for their being the way they are.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 01:42 PM

Well, Wesley, It's Weaver like you've never seen her before.:-) I found the whole film really touching.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 09:25 PM

Is this a movie like you can find at Blockbuster or somewhere?

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:46 PM

I bought mine at Borders but you could get it at Netflix. Blockbuster on line has it too. Check here - Snowcake link

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:53 PM

Thanks, Wesley.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 06:45 PM

NPR a couple nights ago had a brief where medical researchers had identified a gene site associated with autism.

The same radio news article cited the supposed link between autism and mercury (as a preservative in vaccines) and contradicted it in large part by the fact that the autism rate has remained high despite the disuse of mercury in vaccines.

I've also heard credible medical experts deny the link between vaccines and autism.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 07:27 PM

Yeah, Donuel brought up the vaccine connection earlier.

Maybe it's genetic, but there seems to be a lot of it around, and I sure don't recall seeing so many cases in the past. There are different theories, many mentioned above.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: GUEST,guess who again
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 09:53 PM

Here's an interesting theory of autsim:

Neanderthal theory of autism

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 09:58 PM

Wonderful! That's kind of scary!

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 03:22 AM

Sorry, Wesley, my comment was badly worded.

I have seen autistic kids form attachments and relax in the company of familiars - expecially those who are high functioning. I don't believe that these relationships are the same kind of reciprocal friendships that other children have. The interpersonal communication is very limited and based more on attachment. Like one of my seven year old students said about her autistic sibling, "Sometimes she's not a very good, big sister." Her tone was loving but tinged with disappointment.

My comment was in reply to someone who mentioned boys that hung-out in a group and went hunting together. Although those boys may have had social dysfunctions, it is unlikely that they were autistic.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 05:02 AM

One of my daughters is Autistic and the other is ADHD

I always think of autistic children as though they can only single task (a bit like men, so women say :-) )

There is little point throwing a long sentence together at a fast speed to an autistic child. Chances are they are still trying to process the 4th word when you have finished your 20th word.

So when giving instructions, it is very important to break the instructions down into simple one step instructions. When the one instruction has been processed and understood, move onto the next one.

My daughter when learning new things, needs visible illustration as well as simple instructions.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Mo the caller
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 05:16 AM

If anyone got beyond the first paragraph of that Neanderthal theory, maybe they could summarise it for Bears of Very Little Brain.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 08:42 AM

I read a little more than that, but there was a lot of stuff that didn't seem pertinent. The basic idea was, there is a higher rate of autism in Europe than in other places around the globe. The theory seems to be that Neandedrthals interbred with homo-sapiens and developed a gene that causes autism. People around the world, then, have proven to have a greater or lesser degree of incidence of autism depending on how closely they are related to people from western Europe. It's high in North America and Australia, less high in the Union of South Africa, but present, high in Argentina, but lower in Peru, and so on.
                   The article described other kinds of maladies that are found more often in Europeans and less in other people, and proposed the same kind(s) of links.


                   One problem with this theory that I'm aware of is, white supremists have been trying to make this link for years, because they feel like that would give them scientific evidence that they are in fact "different" than other races around the world, but to the best of my knowledge, no link has ever been proven.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Acorn4
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 05:34 PM

We've got an autistic son who is now 19 years old.

When he was younger we tried all kinds of things, none of which produced a cure but some of which helped a lot. Auditory integration, an operation for a hernia and cranial osteopathy both helped improve his quailty of life.

One of the things we tried was a change of diet, and we took him to one of the top specialists in the country on allergy/diet related problems. He ran several tests and told us that he had mercury in his system, but he could not explain how it got there, but administered selenium to try to chase it out, but presumably this was after the brain had already been damaged.

This was when he was eight, several years before the evidence before mercury in vaccinations debate appeared. I'm not a scientist like many of the contributors on this thread, and still have an open mind but it does seem to me quite a convincing piece of empirical evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:23 PM

The last I heard the medical community was pleading the case that the "mercury scare" was unfounded. But the way things are today, one always has to wonder if one can really trust them.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 07:39 PM

Acorn, diet is critical. Things taste more intense for our son and he is reeeally picky but in a good way. He really only likes fruits and select veggies. In fact he stopped eating meat when he was 2 or 3.


RIGINSLINGER thats the wierdest thing I have heard all month.
but... I have seen with my own eyes 2 people who looked tottaly Neanderthal. Not just a little bit but with every identifying feature. One was male from Lacawanna NY and the other was female in Maryland. So I would not be surprised that Neander genes may still be expressed on rare occaisions. The human genome project used the owner for the human blueprint so we may have a ways to go to find these interspecial genes. I think we have some isolated Neander DNA from teeth kicking around somewhere, now where did I put that tooth.

I still find my idea that autism is caused from an inability to discard redundant brain cells so that several neurons compete for the same pathway and causes confusion. The gene that controls the protein respondsible for eliminating the "extra" neurons is probably at fault.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 09:07 PM

Donuel - You're way beyond me. Like the man said, "I only know what I read in the newspapers."

                      Neanderthal genes are interesting, and I'll always wonder if they'll ever be able to make that connection. But if there was a Neanderthal connection, why would they have such an increase in the problem now? Or is it just that they are just able to detect the problem now?

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 May 08 - 04:31 PM

Families will make case for vaccine link to autism

By KEVIN FREKING
Associated Press Writer


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WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Institute of Medicine said in 2004 there was no credible evidence to show that vaccines containing the preservative thimerosal led to autism in children. But thousands of families have a different take based on personal experience.

Some of them are going to court Monday as attorneys will attempt to show that the mercury-based preservative triggers symptoms of autism.

Two 10-year-old boys from Portland, Ore., will serve as test cases to determine whether many of the children and their families should be compensated. Attorneys for the boys will attempt to show the boys were happy, healthy and developing normally - but, after being exposed to vaccines with thimerosal, they began to regress.

Thimerosal has been removed in recent years from standard childhood vaccines, except flu vaccines that are not packaged in single-doses. The CDC says single-dose flu shots currently are available only in limited quantities. In 2004, a committee with the Institute of Medicine concluded there was no credible evidence that vaccines containing thimerosal caused autism.

Overall, nearly 4,900 families have filed claims with the U.S. Court of Claims alleging that vaccines caused autism and other neurological problems in their children. Lawyers for the families are presenting three different theories of how vaccines caused autism.

The Office of Special Masters of the claims court has instructed the plaintiffs to designate three test cases for each of the three theories - nine cases in all - and has assigned three special masters to handle the cases. Three cases in the first category were heard last year, but no decisions have been reached.

The two cases beginning Monday are among the three that focus on the second theory of causation: that thimerosal-containing vaccines alone cause autism. The plaintiff in the third case originally scheduled for hearing this month has withdrawn and lawyers and court officials are working to agree on substitute case.

The suit being heard Monday is against the Department of Health and Human Services, and the plaintiffs are asking for unspecified compensation for the injuries suffered. Damages supposedly would cover lost income after the person turns 18 and up to $250,000 for pain and suffering.

Hearings in the test cases for the third theory of causation are scheduled in mid-September.

Lawyers for the petitioning families in the cases being heard this month say they will present evidence that injections with thimerosal deposit a form of mercury in the brain. That mercury excites certain brain cells that stay chronically activated trying to get rid of the intrusion.

"In some kids, there's enough of it that it sets off this chronic neuroinflammatory pattern that can lead to regressive autism," said attorney Mike Williams.

In the end, the families' attorneys hope to convince the special master hearing their case that thimerosal belongs on the list of causes for the inflammation that leads to regressive autism.

To win, the attorneys for the two boys, William Mead and Jordan King, will have to show that it's more likely than not that the vaccine actually caused the injury.

Many members of the medical community are skeptical of the families' claims. They worry that the claims about the dangers of vaccines could cause some people to forgo vaccines that prevent illness.

"I think that what's so endearing to me about the anti-vaccine people, is they're perfectly willing to go from one hypothesis to the next without a backward glance," said Dr. Paul Offit, director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia.

Autism is a developmental disability that typically appears during the first three years of life and affects a person's ability to communicate and interact with others. Dr. Andrew Gerber, a psychiatrist, said that medical experts don't have a comprehensive understanding of what causes autism, but they do know there is a strong hereditary component.

Toxins from the environment could play a role, but currently, data does not support that they do, Gerber said.

Arguments are scheduled to go on throughout the month. A final decision could take several more months.

The families or the federal government can also appeal the decision of the special master to the Court of Federal Claims or to a federal appeals court.

The court Web site says more than 12,500 claims have been filed since creation of the program in 1987, including more than 5,300 autism cases, and more than $1.7 billion has been paid in claims. It says there is now more than $2.7 billion in a trust fund supported by an excise tax on each dose of vaccine covered by the program.

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Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Rasener
Date: 13 May 08 - 01:25 AM

I happen to believe that like all vaccinations, there are bound to be a small % that respond very badly to them.
The MMR vaccine is no different and I would support the parents, who are trying to prove that the MMR inoculation did indeed cause their child to become autistic.

I went to a conference run by Paul Shattock from Sunderland University UK some years ago, and he certainly convinced me that it was possible. Paul Shattock

In my daughters case, I do not think the MMR vaccine was the cause. However after many meetings from medical people trying to force us to ensure our daughter had the 2nd MMR vaccine, we discussed the issue with our doctor (who was brilliant).
She felt that the first MMR jab would probably have worked with our daughter. She said that only for a small % the first jab didn't work. She said that the second jab, was to ensure that the small % were captured as well. She advised us that it was our choice not to have the second jab and that it was probably a sound decision.

We still stick by that decision, and do not believe all these pompous indoctrinated medical advisors that were only interested in making sure every child had the inoculation.

I really hope that the parents who feel that they genuinly have a case win. However, the blood suckers who have just latched on to it, just to make some money do not get my support.

I think as a parent, you know if the child has autism not caused by the vaccination.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 May 08 - 09:13 AM

As an interesting side note. I originally heard this on NPR, and then looked it up in the newspaper in order to have something to post.

             But just prior to that, they were running a piece on a guy who was convicted of a murder he didn't do, but at the time of his conviction, the defense attorney knew he didn't do it, the police knew he didn't do it, the district attorney knew he didn't do it, but the procedure went on, and he was convicted because the state just wanted to have someone to blame for the crime.

             26 years later, the guy who really did do it died, which made it possible for the defense attorney to come forth with the evidence to free him. He was barred by law from doing it earlier.

             The sequence of these two stories made me wonder if the medical community has circled the wagons around the vaccines, because if they didn't, the liability would just be too huge.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 May 08 - 10:07 AM

"The sequence of these two stories made me wonder if the medical community has circled the wagons around the vaccines, because if they didn't, the liability would just be too huge."

Good Lord Rig - we've FINALLY found a topic we can agree upon. I knew it was out there somewhere!! Alert the media!!

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 May 08 - 10:09 AM

That's great, Wesley. But now where do we go for truth?

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Grab
Date: 13 May 08 - 11:19 AM

Going back to vaccination, the problem with the idea that vaccines cause autism (or "autistic spectrum disorder") is that different countries use different vaccines, and their use started at different times. If there was *any* link whatsoever between vaccines and autism, there would be clear differences between different countries' statistics.

The problem for the vaccination hypothesis is that this simply isn't the case. Diagnosed autistic spectrum disorders have risen in lockstep in all Western countries, regardless of the dates when particular vaccinations started and what preparation of vaccine is used.

And as for the "pompous indoctrinated medical advisors", they're trying to ensure that generations of children grow up without the killer diseases that killed vast quantities of children. You often hear people saying today, "A parent should never have to see their child die." Well I've got news for them - before vaccination, you might quite likely have been burying 5 children out of a family of 10. Or the children might have been permanently disabled by it. The only reason it's relatively safe to be unvaccinated today is that most other people are vaccinated and so can't spread the disease. As a one-off, you'll get away with it. But like all these things, once a whole bunch of people decide to be "one-offs", suddenly there's a load of them - and then bang, let'er rip and bury the dead. :-(

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Paul Burke
Date: 13 May 08 - 11:21 AM

...possible for the defense attorney to come forth with the evidence to free him. He was barred by law from doing it earlier.

I wonder why he didn't feel he had to break the law?

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 May 08 - 12:07 PM

Paul - I agree. But even more amazing to me is, why isn't some charge brought against the District Attorney and/or the police?

                   I mean, the guy spent 26 years in prison.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 May 08 - 12:14 PM

Grab - Yes, I know the medical community has determined for themselves that the vaccine allegations are not valid, and they're very likely right.

                        But the average guy in the street has to deal with things like the victim's families of the 9/11 attack getting paid off because the airlines/government/corporate-world/et.al. were not being able to deal with the potential liabilities.

                         And then the Oklahoma City families joining in after the fact for the same reasons.

                         Along with a whole list of other compromises that have been made to individuals and groups for the sake of expediency.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 13 May 08 - 04:04 PM

"vaccines have been used for, what, well over 70 years and yet the number of cases of autism is increasing dramatically. That makes me question any link between the two. What else is happening to make the numbers rise so much?"

Are there actually more cases of autism? Or are doctors better at recognizing and diagnosing autism?

Also, we have made great strides in recent decades with lowering infant mortality rates, particularly for babies born of mothers past what used to be considered normal child-bearing years. Anecodatally, I know three autistic children and all of them were born to women 40 or over. At least one of those children would not have survived childbirth 10 or 15 years earlier.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 May 08 - 04:19 PM

I think where this comes from is the reality that there is mercury in the vaccine. I don't know if there was always mercury in vaccine--maybe there was.

               So, at the end of the day, it's all going to be hashed out in court. So, once again, we will have legal minds making medical decisions. You'd think there'd be a better way.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Goose Gander
Date: 13 May 08 - 06:47 PM

"Grinker argues that what has changed is not the global incidence of autism but the way in which we find, label and count children with autism."

From a http://www.unstrange.com/review_irishtimes.html of Unstrange Minds by Roy Richard Grinker.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Goose Gander
Date: 13 May 08 - 06:51 PM

Oh, crap, that should have been a review of Gringer's book.

Full disclosure: I once took a test that revealed I am 'mildly' austistic (far range of the spectrum).

And yet I have plenty of friends.

Go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Grab
Date: 13 May 08 - 07:47 PM

Riginslinger, there's a fair summary about the mercury thing on Wikipedia, under the heading for the particular mercury compound involved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thimerosol

I totally support continuous statistical checking to see whether anything is having a side-effect. The human body is a pretty complex bit of machinery and can break down in a whole bunch of strange ways, and no reasonable testing beforehand is going to catch the fractions-of-a-percent cases that get revealed over use in millions of people - it just ain't possible.

The problem is twofold. Firstly there's people's ability to assess of risk - what's the chances of *failing* to vaccinate causing damage (by allowing infection) versus the chances of vaccination itself causing damage? This actually happened to me and my sisters. When I was born, there was an MMR-like scare going on about whooping cough vaccine. My mum point-blank insisted that me and my sister mustn't be vaccinated, so my dad went along with it. We both subsequently caught it whilst young - I was 3, but she was only 18 months, not far outside the zone where 1 in 500 babies dies. She had to be taken to hospital and put on a ventilator for a week; if they hadn't, she would have been one of those statistics. My dad said he basically went through hell then, having known that the scare was a load of bull but having gone along with my mum's scare-story belief to avoid arguments.

And secondly there's people's ability to assess sources of information. It worries me (frankly it scares me) that you're lumping all those unrelated things together. I guess that isn't how *you* think, but how you think other people think? "Someone who's part of a large organisation is telling me this, therefore I shouldn't trust them because this might be part of a global conspiracy." It certainly doesn't help though that newspapers gratuitously misreport stories about scientific and medical issues, nor that politicians (John Gummer, famously) try to spin the reports.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 May 08 - 07:56 PM

Well, the thing gets really complicated. One of the overwhelming problems, I think, and we see it more and more in the social environment we live in, is this: It doesn't really matter whether mercury is a problem in the vaccine or not, if a bunch of attorneys can make a jury believe it in court, that's the verdict we run with.

                     Look at the breast implant thing. Now they're putting them in again.