Pianos In Folk Music

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 02:48 PM

sourced from Wikipedia

Chordophone

Charlotte (wikipedia from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 02:46 PM

Sourced from Wikipedia.

It (the piano) is sometimes classified as both a percussion and a stringed instrument (in a loose sense of that term). According to the Hornbostel-Sachs method of music classification, it is grouped with Chordophones.

Charlotte (researching from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 02:27 PM

Well, I suppose that the category to which one assigns the piano depends upon which textbook you consult. I was brought up with the teaching that the piano was/is a string instrument (which is, undeniably, one valid way of looking at it). I can certainly understand the other argument, for classification as percussion.

Most but not all persussion instruments are more-or-less atonal. Some kinds of drums can be "tuned" to a relative degree of tautrness, which corresponds to pitch, but are not generally played to produce different notes. Sheet music for drummers shows timing but not melody/notes.

Now, the xylophone family of instruments (including marimba, vibraphone, etc.) is definitely classified as percussion by just about everyone, and the player is expected to play notes on them, just like on the piano. The hammers are operated manually, whereas the little hammers hidden inside a piano are connected to the keys. I'm not sure how meaningful a distinction that may be.

Anyway, my point earlier was that the piano is quite a bit more than just a percussion instrument in that it can supply melody and harmony as well as rhythm. Not all other instruments can do this; many can produce only one note at a time, eliminating the possibility of chordal harmony and making it more problematic to play a rhythm-makng role. Guitars and banjos, etc., can fill the pianos role in a band, but keyboards are more versatile than strummable strings.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 03:33 AM

Technically, a piano is "percussion" because the little hammers in it hit the strings.

"Strings" are things on which the string is scraped.

I'd have to go away to find a musical encyclopaedia to check about things on whichteh string is plucked (eg guitar, banjo, lute, manfolin, harp, harpsichord, etc)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Tootler
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 07:17 PM

At one time I tended towards Richard Bridge's view. However over the years I have modified that view as I realised just what an amazingly flexible instrument the piano is. Not for me - I did try to learn to play piano at one time and took lessons. I got as far as grade 1 and that was a real struggle. I do appreciate the ability of a good pianist to produce effective accompaniment in any musical genre.

I still have an electronic keyboard and I admit to rather enjoying those build in accompaniments which you can produce using one finger or simple chord patterns. Tasteful it may not be, but fun it definitely is :-)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Rog Peek
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 06:27 PM

I once watched a fellow busking on a street in Cork City. "Nothing strange about that." I hear you say.........Except, he was playing a full size upright piano. How in the hell he took it home, I don't know!

Rog

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 06:16 PM

*prepares a cheese tray to go with Mr. Bridge's selection of w(h)ines*

There will, however, be no cocktail piano music as we had to get rid of the piano after it was found we had been wasting our time all these years.

Charlotte (the view from)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 04:30 PM

Well, electric keyboards are a hell of a lot more portable than "real" pianos, and more economical as well, so they represent the future for most "folk."

Electric pianos that really sound like painos are much rarer than cheesy-sounding keyboards, unfortunately...

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 04:06 PM

I don't have a problem with pianos in folk music, in fact I quite like them. They have more historical precedent in folk music than guitars, going back to the days when there were pianos in pubs and living rooms for musicians to congregate around. The sad thing these days is that most piano players have to use electronic keyboards to perform anywhere, which isn't quite the same.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 12:50 PM

Over the past week or so, several folks (in this thread and, I believe one or two others) have made the statement that "the piano is a percussion instrument."

Wrong! The piano is a string instrument.

Of course, the piano can be played percussively, while at the same time providing melody and/or harmony. In the context of a jazz/pop/rock ensemble, the piano (and/or other keyboard) shares a unique role with the guitar (and/or other strummable box) as member of the rhythm section that can also play melody (i.e., solo and accompany).

The time-honored intrumental lineup for New Orleans style traditional jazz consists of a front line of horns (Trumpet, trombone and clarinet), a rhythm section of drum(s) and bass (string bass or tuba/sousaphone), plus a piano OR banjo to "bridge the gap" between horn and rhythm sections, playing chordal accompaniment in rhythm (i.e., "percussively") and also able to interject melody lines as appropriate.

One of my favorite contemporary jazz groups, Astral Project, consisted for twenty years or more of sax, bass, drums, guitar, and piano. A few years ago, longtime pianist David Torkanowsky left the band, not for "personal" or "artistic" differences, but mostly because the ensemble had become crowded, as he and the guitar player became more and more likely to step all over each other, since either one was able to completely fill a particular well-defined role in the group.

Whether a well-played piano has a place in "folk music" depends entirely upon one's definition of folk music. If the piano is played without taste and finesse, overwhelming other voices in the ensemble, it's not very good regardless of any general rule one might believe about whether or not its presence is appropriate.

Piano music is an element of New Orleans musical tradition fully equal to the group-improvisational "Dixieland" combo described above. My recommendations to interested listeners would be two mid-20th-century masters, Professor Longhair and James Booker.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 12:01 PM

Both Stan Rogers and Sean Keane have used them very effectively

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 11:52 AM

>>Or you could form a trio with a banjo player and a bodhran player<<

Now that is funny Richard :-)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 11:11 AM

By all means use the damned things for something - real honky-tonk, or barrelhouse, or if you like "light music" I'm sure they are suited to that.

Or you could form a trio with a banjo player and a bodhran player.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's pianoless Apprentice
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 11:07 AM

Opps...oh, well...there goes my 15 or so years of piano lessons down the toilet...me dad and late mum will be disappointed that they've been wasting their money....ah me...

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Ps's couch, having tossed the piano stool along with the piano)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 10:41 AM

Oh well, that's most of Sandy Denny's oeuvre down the pan then! Don't know why she bothered to buy that Steinway from Harrods.

Julie Matthews bites the dust too.

And er - excuse me - the piano ruins Carol King's stuff? HUH? She plays the blooming thing and composes on it!

As for the rude remarks about Ralph Vaughan Williams, Aaron Copland, and Cecil Sharp - words fail me. (By the way, there are no E's in Copland or Sharp, said he pedantically)

Ed (grade five piano basher)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 10:40 AM

Yeah, Villan, cheers for that man ;-)

I seem to recall Pete Townsend was involved somehow (?producer).

I remember watching them play it on TV - it's just irresistibly bonkers!

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 10:12 AM

Do you mean this one Sminky Something In The Air :-) LOL Sweet dreams.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 09:10 AM

Hey Matt - no sweat.

Anyone remember that piano solo from Thunderclap Newman's "Something In The Air"? I just canNOT get it out of my head at the moment!

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: mattkeen
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 08:35 AM

Quote Matt - I was merely making an observation. I leave it to others to draw their own conclusions.


To Guest,Sminky
Thanks for the clarification, didn't mean my comment as a criticism of what you said, more about how arguments get kicked off on this forum.

Have always felt your posts talked a lot of sense, so thanks for your contributions

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 12:23 PM

Richard: Bartok spend more time studying, recording and listening to folk music than almost anyone else on the planet! And, he was undoubtedly the greatest authority on Hungarian folk music.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Banjiman
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 08:10 AM

Richard,

I had been taking your comments on piano fairly seriously, but to suggest that the banjo is not a fine accompanying instrument has just completely blown your credibility in my book....go and wash your mouth out with soap and water!

Yours predictably

Paul

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 07:51 AM

I hate them in rock music too. Except for necrophiliac rock and roll. Floyd Cramer is OK but he is nearly country which rules him out on other grounds...

Not even all that keen on them in jazz (Ramsay Lewis and Dave Brubeck excepted). Hate Horst Jankowsi with a passion.

But are we going to call Bartok folk music? He used folk tunes, but does that make him a folk musician? Actually, on the rare-ish occasions I listen to classical music, the piano is about my least favourite instrument there too.

Absolutely no way the piano is a better accompanying instrument than anything (er - except maybe the banjo).

Oh, and the Highland great pipes are a bit limited for accompaniment too.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 07:35 AM

The piano has a long history of playing folk type music. I think we all agree that the piano is fine(great!) for blues/boogie-woogie. Bela Bartok used the piano very successfully for Balkan folk tunes - a pentatonic heaven! As an accompanying instrument, the piano is vastly superior to the guitar. Think about that chap (one of the folk clan) who backs Cara Dillon. Great stuff. Think Joni Mitchell! Terrific! I think a lot of folkies have got to "step outside their little square boxes" and explore the piano in all its many settings.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: oggie
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 07:30 AM

I have fond memories of Johnny Handle playing "Cushy Butterfield" on a beat-up upright! Sounded great!

Why is that keyboards (usually used for floaty, drony backgrounds, OK I generalise) seem to be acceptable but pianos aren't. I much prefer a well played piano.

Steve

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 06:57 AM

Matt - I was merely making an observation. I leave it to others to draw their own conclusions.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 06:57 AM

Richard: you clearly lack the ability to imagine!

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: mattkeen
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 06:00 AM

Yur on shaky ground quoting Cecil Sharpe's arrangements as 100% evidence of authenticity and good practice round here

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 05:47 AM

If it wasn't for the piano I wouldn't have been taught to sing all those wonderful folksongs at school.

BTW - anybody possess any of the Cecil Sharp songbooks? Check out the arrangements by Alfred Moffat, they're for - piano!

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 03:34 AM

Tunesmith, you are joking, right?

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Banjiman
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 03:21 AM

It looks like I might have to admit to being in the minority, I've been trying June Tabor therapy.......but I still prefer the songs without piano,

Still, largely a civilised and interesting debate.

Cheers

Paul

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 03:16 AM

The piano is a fantastic instrument, and vastly under used in folk music. I remember listening to Nic Jones' recording of "Master Kilby" and thinking that Nic may be a great folk guitarist, but his guitar sounded so weak compared to the rich full sound coming from Helen Watson's piano. Of course, those much maligned "new age" pianoists have made some beautiful recordings of Christmas songs/hymns and many trad songs such as "The Water is Wide" and "Shenandoah". By the way, shanties would sound fantastic on the the piano - in the hands of the right musician.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Henryp
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 11:55 AM

Polly Bolton employed TWO wonderful pianists in her Band. John Shepherd regularly played piano on dates so Steve Dunachie usually played violin, viola or guitar. They lived in Ludlow and a good example of their work is A Shropshire Lad. It's their setting of the poems of A E Housman (with additional verses read by Sir Nigel Hawthorne). They offer their individual arrangements that are completely in sympathy with the words. Other recordings are devoted to traditional folk song and are just as successful.

Planxty travelled with a very heavy harmonium that suffered badly at the hands of their roadies. It steadily lost parts until it eventually expired. However, the roadies' objection was to its weight rather than its sound.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Trevor Thomas
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 11:54 AM

John Tams and Barry Coope use a guitar and a keyboard. They are excellent, as anyone who has heard them will be able to attest.

I play regularly with a piano player, who uses a digital piano, and he too is excellent.

The 'drawing room' type stuff with the posh voices and the evening dress is about as far away from my idea of the music as can be.

So aye, they can be marvellous, or they can be twee. Depends who's playing it.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: banjoman
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 11:21 AM

In an effort to avoid any more confusion I AM BANJOMAN (alias Pete) and not BANJIMAN whoever that is. I have been posting on Mudcat for many years but in future will sign off as Pete on any of my postings.
PS I have hundreds (seems like itaccording to my wife) of banjos which I have made or restored if anyone is interested

I stand by my previous message about pianos

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Snuffy
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 07:29 PM

It's all a matter of taste Richard. Gui-sodding-tars do the same for me as pianos do for you. I don't walk out - but my brain switches off immediately and goes somehere else for the duration.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 06:45 PM

How an instrument is played ,is imo,The Important thing.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 06:37 PM

If it was good enough for Walter and Daisy Bulwer then its good enough for me.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Banjiman
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 05:33 PM

Charlotte,

....erm, I might not like pianos (in folk music) much , but walking out when someone is performing would just be rude. So you are right, I wouldn't........especially if I'd paid to get in!

Paul

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 04:36 PM

Yes, Charlotte, as said above, I walked out of a performance at Ely in 2007 by some big name band whose name I forget, when the piano started to intrude (ie when playing it started).

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's short Apprentice
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 03:17 PM

actually I'm not as tall as The Killer *LOL*

Charlotte (still growing into her 88's)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Snuffy
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 03:15 PM

Charlotte (piano player of fairly long standing)

Just like Jerry Lee Lewis, then?

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Curmudgeon
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 03:15 PM

'The Kilfenora Ceilidh band started EVERYTHING with a 2-beat piano vamp.'

It didn't and still doesn't!

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 02:43 PM

I wonder if the anti-piano crowd would actually walk out of a gig if the performers brought a piano onto the stage?...I bet they wouldn't*LOL*

Charlotte (piano player of fairly long standing)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 02:34 PM

It evidently has a very important place in the hearts of the Scottish dancing community.   

And they are welcome to it...

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 10:11 AM

LOL

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 09:53 AM

Awww! Villan!!

It wez nigh-on 30 years ago in a tiny folk club in Fareham, capacity crowd and she'd 'ripped the room to shreds'

Aah wez MC and wez totally in lurve with her and as I closed the evenin' and just before her encore she leaned toward uz and just kissed my cheek.

Aah didn't come doon for a week and aah didn't see mah forst wife for three days...... then the swellin' went doon in the left eye!!!

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 07:17 AM

Oooh Cathryn Roberts and Sean Lakeman - one of my favourites.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Acorn4
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 06:15 AM

I'd quote Catherine Roberts' "Girl with the Bonny Brown Hair" and much on the albums of Bill Jones (though she's taking a bit of a break for family things at the moment) as good examples of keyborad backings.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Saro
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 05:56 AM

Just thought I'd add another fantastic paino player to the List. Andy Johnson is capable playing excellent cailidh music as siginificant but never dominant part of a band (with various Tabbush family members) and can also be heard accompanying Carolyn Robson on some of ther CDs. Always worht a listen in my view - unless of course you just hate pianos...
Saro

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 05:06 AM

I bet that made your knees shake GP :-)