Pianos In Folk Music

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 07:46 PM

"England" by Ralph Mctell

The Kilfenora Ceilidh band started EVERYTHING with a 2-beat piano vamp and the thing played the rhythm aall the way through aall of the songs while 32 fiddles played the tune and the Bodhran player made the tea

June Tabor kissed uz on the cheek once when we were both VERY much younger - She wadn't remember, but aall nivvor forget!!!

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Rockhen
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 11:10 AM

"I feel pianos are great instruments in their place."
What is their place, now? I do not know a single place where I could go and play a piano, that is in tune. That is why I take mine with me. (Don't worry, Peter, I'll leave the second venue you mention, to you, btw!) ;-)

Progress with technology, will mean that the current high quality electric pianos that are being produced, now, will eventually evolve into an acceptable replacement, once they are refined and become less expensive, or at least, an alternative to traditional heavy acoustic varieties. Then, I believe, there will be a change in the attitude by many towards pianos. They are seen as instruments that do not fit into folk music because people are not used to hearing them played because they are so difficult to take to places.

My piano has been played round a campfire and many other locations, from concert hall, pub, back of a lorry, and I do not feel that I plonked it and wrecked the music of others. I am open minded about music and I think pianos can be a valid part of folk music, if they aren't driven by a plinky-plonker. (musical term)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Midchuck
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 10:07 AM

There are two things wrong with a piano:

1) It can easily drown out an acoustic guitar, so piano players, like banjo players, consider it their duty to do so, just to prove the size of their balls.

2) Like Stringsinger said, you can't throw it over your back and hop a freight train. You can't bring it to a campfire sing around, either.

I feel pianos are great instruments in their place. That place is either a concert hall or a whorehouse. I'd like to learn so that I could go to whorehouses and have something to do in my old age.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Rockhen
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 10:00 AM

I think it depends on the the piano player and whether the piano is in tune. In my humble opinion, as a player of the said wonderful instrument, if you notice the piano,too much, if being used to accompany a vocalist or instrumentalist...it is not being played sensitively. It is an art to accompany someone.

If played with other instruments to be part of a band for example, it CAN drown everyone out.. but so can many other instruments. I know some fiddle players, for example, who have to always take the lead and play it just a touch too loud. I also know those who play sensitively and know just when it is ok to go off on a solo and when to hold back. Same with accordions, which I also play, (Hey! How unpopular can I make myself? Lol!)...and guitarists etc etc.

I think a piano is seen as an instrument not available to all, so is viewed with resentment by some, and that has contributed to its unpopularity with some but that would be the subject of another thread. If folk music is music of folk, I think it shouldn't be exclusive to certain instruments.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Ref
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 09:47 AM

Hey it's about Folk Music, or folks' music. If people get pleasure sharing and trading songs around a Steinway Concert Grand, then it's no more or less appropriate to "Folk Music" than doing so around a battered, forty-year-old Martin guitar.   I'd more enjoy a fight about the merits of singing music together as opposed to sitting passively while someone else presents their solo "interpretation." Also, spare me the Ralph Vaughan Williams and aaron Copeland versions of traditional folk music. They're over-orchestrated crap!

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Nick
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 09:25 AM

>>I have found that piano players are in the most part very unweildy and not willing to alter anything to enable other instruments to join in. EG its difficult to play some pieces in certain keys on guitar/banjo/recorder etc and where we would be happy to change key to accomodate, we have never yet found a piano player who would.

And when you ask them to retune their piano to your banjo just look at their faces...

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Twinkle fingers
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 08:56 AM

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Banjiman
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 08:47 AM

Hi Busy Lizzie.....I may occasionally pick the banjo......... (ask my wife!)

As far as I am aware there are no pianos coming to the KFFC Winter Warmer Weekend which I'm involved in organising, I have to confess to one in the dining room though.....but I don't (can't) play it.

Paul

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Walkaboutsverse
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 08:17 AM

I'm not certain on this issue...but singing around the piano is, of course, a strong tradition in itself. And, for what it's worth, I practice (and have posted on myspace) English folk songs with electric-keyboards set on "piano" - playing just the top-line melody with both hands (in the understanding that English folk-music, at least, has, for centuries, been the repetition of a relatively simple melody, for singing and/or dancing).
P.S: singing Christmas carols around The Cumberland Arms upright-piano is always enjoyable.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Busy Lizzie
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 08:12 AM

p.s. Banjiman you wouldn't be a banjo player then??

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Busy Lizzie
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 08:05 AM

Hello Banjiman no, no, just one £22k's worth of grand piano, hired and insured for 2 nights! I have never been fortunate enough to see June Tabor live, so I have to run my own festival in order to get to see all the artists I like! On saying that, I'll probably be too busy running around doing festival director kind of things and not get to see her again! Ha! Ha!
Liz

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Marje
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 07:35 AM

Pianos seem to be prominent in a lot of Scottish traditional bands, and they are much favoured in Scottish country dance music.

I can't say I like it much - there's something about those plonky descending bass chord sequences that irritates me - but it would be wrong to say the piano has no place there. It evidently has a very important place in the hearts of the Scottish dancing community.

Marje

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Banjiman
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 07:23 AM

Busy Lizzie....are you actually trying to attract people to Middlewich by threatening them with 2 grand pianos? LoL.

I actually love June Tabor, but would love her more without the piano!

Seriously, good luck with it.

Paul

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Busy Lizzie
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 07:14 AM

I only read the first few messages here, but all I can say is, June Tabor 13th June 2008 with Grand Piano played by Mark Emmerson, and June 14th 2008 Jonathan Kelly with Grand Piano, in St Michaels CHurch Middlewich as part of Middlewich Folk and Boat Festival 2008, watch for full line up in the next few days!
Pianos in folk music indeed!!

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 07:12 AM

Oh Bugger. Sorry Paul LOL :-)

Banjoman and Banjiman - maybe you two should form a duo :-)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Banjiman
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 07:08 AM

Les,

Are you talkin' to me or banjOman post above yours?

Paul

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 06:39 AM

I am tempted to say something Paul LOL No I mustn't otherwise I will get banjoed. :-)

I'll get me coat, but one last thing, maybe you haven't looked around enough, to find that special person who can accomodate your requirements.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: banjoman
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 06:35 AM

Pianos are OK in the right place - but thats not in most folk music scenarios.
I have found that piano players are in the most part very unweildy and not willing to alter anything to enable other instruments to join in. EG its difficult to play some pieces in certain keys on guitar/banjo/recorder etc and where we would be happy to change key to accomodate, we have never yet found a piano player who would.
Played as a sol instrument thats fine - but otherwise NO

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Moonmoth
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 06:17 AM

Fiddles sound pretty awful in folk music when the player only knows how to play Beethoven, Bruch, Mendellsohn etc.

As with any instrument, surely it's the musicianship behind a piano that makes it 'bad' or 'good'? (Which are, of course, subjective terms anyway!)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 06:05 AM

Nick
Thanks for putting the link to Cara Dillon & Sam Lakeman - Garden Valley.

That is such a beautiful version.

The last time I saw that sung at Faldingworth Live by John Blanks and Jane Kitchen. They did such a beautiful version of it as well. John also does that on his own as well and again it is beautifully done.

Brings tears to the eyes.

Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,strad
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 05:51 AM

So many piano players do seem to stop once they've learnt those three chords and yet a good player can really lift the sound. I spent an evening at a dance near Boston listening to the playing of Jacqueline Schwab and was entranced by her music. Peter Barnes is another whose playing lifts the sound. Andy Thorburn does similar in Scotland. But the Dum-chinging piano sound either has me switching off or going somewhere else. Unfortunately most Scottish dance bands seem to like Dum-Ching.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 05:46 AM

"Don't think of it as a piano, think of it as an 88-string guitar" (Tom Lehrer an piano and folk song)

RtS
(a virtuoso on the pianola!)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Nick
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 05:20 AM

There was a lot of piano played in a lot of the Transatlantic Sessions (1 to 3) and I thought a lot of that worked remarkably well. A lot of Scottish music works remarkably well with the piano as an accompanying instrument (Fiddlers Bid are a favourite of mine at the moment). Capercaillie feature keyboards a lot and that seems to work for me.

Some examples - Sam Lakeman, Cara Dillon and Paul Brady or Cara Dillon again or Ae Fond Kiss - Karen Matheson or Julie Fowlis

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 05:10 AM

Going by the Noel Hill LP I mentioned in another thread, I'd have to say Charlie Lennon is good.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Banjiman
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 04:30 AM

Gargoyle,

Thanks for bringing the world democracy.....just like George Bush huh!

(Hee, hee, hee)

Paul

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 03:35 AM

Luckily for the rest of us, some people choose not to do so and extend the versatility.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 03:24 AM

Do some reading Garg. As I said earlier, it is a percussion instrument. Use them as such.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 02:57 AM

"it's too heavy to pack around on your back."
Sadly - no longer the case. My heart sinks when I see a keyboard being hauled in to our local sessions. Was devastated when I heard Peggy Seeger was using one
Have been desperately searching for an album of one of Ireland's finest fiddlers, Martin Byrnes, without a heavy-handed piano driver.
This is somewhat reminiscent of the bodhran thread.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 12:45 AM

WONDERFUL instrument.

BENJAMINE - Perhaps, you don' lik em because one keyboard can replace five other players.

Personally, I prefer the full bucket rather than sharing but we each have our different gigs.

It is my guess, that "Super Bowl Weekend" is the slowest five days of the year for American musicians....unless your last name begins with T Timberlake, Turner, Art Thieme, Tagger

From fiddle to bass, from harmonica to rhythm, it is ALL under YOUR control.

I like em.

Sinerly,
Gargoyle

COUNT 8 against 26 in favor

Motion by Benjamin denied.

DUHHHHH - Richard Bridge 6:33 - the piano IS a percussion instrument!!!!

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 07:42 PM

>>except on good thumping honky tonk and boogie. And some rock and roll (eg the Viscounts' hammering version of "Shortnin Bread"). <<

Richard
I love Jerry Lee lewis, Fats Domino,Floyd Kramer,even Neil Sedaka with "I Go Ape" etc etc. That is where my love of music is. The piano is a great instrument.

However, I just love people who can play the piano sensitively as well. Spaw put some lovely examples up there and I think I did with June Tabor.

I hate modern jazz piano.

Elton John when he plays his slower numbers plays some beautiful numbers. One of my favourites of his is "The boy in the red shoes" - I think it is that.

Bad Penny Blues is a great number.

The piano does not suit everything and has its place.


Kathleen Ferrier, I do not like but she does one absolutely beautiful number (I don't think there is a piano in that) and its called "What is Life" and that song bring tears to my eyes as much as any sentimental folk song I have ever heard.

At the end of the day, "blinkered" sometimes springs to mind

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:56 PM

True enough the piano is an instrument with a fair history in folk song. That doesn't mean you have to like it though. I rarely do, outside of barrelhouse and such.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:33 PM

Oh, or a Zeppelin or butterfly?

Unless you use them like percussion, and hit the vox hard enough to get over them, pianos are genteel. Hyacinth Bucket.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Banjiman
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:15 PM

Richard,

exactly these sort of voices go down like a lead balloon............

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:13 PM

Now, while we are nitpicking, it's "plummy" not "plumby". The former denotes fruit, the latter a heavy metal.

I still hate pianos, except in the places and styles I mentioned above. Actually, maybe I can tolerate them in music hall (eg "When Father papered teh parlour" as above) too.

I have known people who liked the tinkling noises made in "sophisticated" bars, but they just made me want to leave and find some music.

It's not about "appropriate". I just hate the damned things, except on good thumping honky tonk and boogie. And some rock and roll (eg the Viscounts' hammering version of "Shortnin Bread").

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:12 PM

Still in the fat Paul, still in the fat...............

Spaw(;<))

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Banjiman
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:03 PM

Spaw, for clarity, I started the thread by saying I don't like pianos.....not that they have no place in folk music.

Now, where are my chips (fries to some) to put that grain of salt on?

Paul

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:57 PM

^^Of course they will.....that's what Mudcat is all about!!! Lines like that are simply the fun of the place and to be taken with less than a grain of salt!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Banjiman
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:55 PM

Charlotte, stop being so.........reasonable!

"They always remind me of why I was put off English folk music as a child: a plumby voiced sopranoes singing 'Greensleeves' or 'Blow Ye Winds Southerly' to piano accompaniment."   

Yep, and though I try, I just can't get away from this! and plumby is the right description.

I'm not saying the piano totally ruins every song or arrangement but it rarely enhances it, as for the June Tabor examples.....these are great performances by June but I would like them more with a different accompaniment......

but then I play banjo...ho, hum.

Paul

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Gene Burton
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:52 PM

"Now take your simpleass bullshit opinions that pianos have no place in folk/trad and toddle off somewhere else."

But people WILL insist in expressing views contrary to your own (such temerity!)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:46 PM

One day I'm going to write a post about my Mom but for now, take my word for it she could have made it easily as a concert pianist. I grew up listening to her and it took many years before I had the ability to understand just how incredible she was. For now let me say that her playing taught me the one sure thing I could find with great pianists......their sense of "touch."

A piano is a percussion instrument and unlike it's forebear the dulcimer, the sound is created through a multi-piece mechanism. This makes it easy to play badly and loudly. But when you find someone who has learned to overcome this drawback and make the instrument capable of a variety of differing sound levels and can make those changes between them without effort but with feeling, you've found a great pianist. And when you find one with a passion for traditional tunes, dance tunes, pop tunes............well for one thing, you may have stumbled upon Jackie Schwab.

You might know her even if you don't. Have you noticed all the piano work in the soundtracks of almost every Ken Burns documentary? Or did you miss it because it flowed in and out and around and through and above and below without any sense of being obtrusive? That is touch and that is Jacqueline Schwab. Here are two YouTube videos using her for the music. Have a listen........

Johnny Has Gone For A Soldier

Battle Cry of Freedom

Now take your simpleass bullshit opinions that pianos have no place in folk/trad and toddle off somewhere else.   

Spaw

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:39 PM

well...some like the piano and folk, and some don't, that's the way of the world....

Charlotte (trying to remember the words to that grand old song, When Father Papered The Parlour)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: BTMP
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:22 PM

At the beginning of the movie 'Songcatcher', there is a beautiful rendition of 'Barbara Allen' accompanied only by piano. It's in the traditional arrangement and quite moving. I play guitar and mandolin and can make some chords and other sounds on the piano (I really can't play). From my perspective, because I can't play the piano like I can the guitar, I admire a well-played tune on the piano. Also, playing accompaniment is more difficult than just playing a melody from sheet music. Most folk and bluegrass musicians cannot play the piano, but it is a gift just as playing the guitar is.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Murray on Salt Spring
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:18 PM

To accompany a SONG, the piano has to be discreet. In an ensemble, like our old Schiehallion band, it's very useful, if not indispensable. It is a percussion instrument, and for dancing helps the beat (bass, drums, e.g.). I like to think the way I played, sometimes taking the melody, sometimes playing a counter-tune, or even just running arpeggios up and down, varied the sound appropriately. To accompany a rouser of a chorus song, it's pretty good I'd say. But it's true that as the sole accompaniment of a folk song it can intrude terribly.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,irishenglish
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:14 PM

Richard Bridge-Let Her Go Down, and Gone To America are by Steeleye Span, not Fairport Convention. Ditto to those who have mentioned Beryl Marriott, Reg Hall, and as played by Cape Breton musicians. As for the rest of you, I subscribe to the feeling that ANY INSTRUMENT can be used effectively on ANY GIVEN SONG or tune if the arrangement the performer uses calls for it. Take a well known song, say something like Star Of The COunty Down. Now I have heard that by everyone from Van Morrison to the Oysterband, and from harp players to lush string arrangements. Take your pick which version you like for yourself best, but what that proves is these songs are adaptable to many different arrangements and instrumentation. Last night I saw Richard Thompson's 1000 Years of Popular Music. The opening song of which I forget the title, he performed on hurdy gurdy. Later Judith Owen played a stunning version of Down By The Sally Gardens that was piano based, with sparse help from Richard and Debra Dobkin. I have heard that song many times, but hands down, that will now be my favorite rendition, because in the hands of that performer, the song worked with piano. This brings me back to Tim Hart's famous quote about folk rock being as anachronistic to the folk movement as the guitar (Spanish) and the banjo (African). Does piano always work-no it may not, but then again, maybe what a song needs is not fiddle or accordion as well. BOttom line, if it works, it works and you know it when it does!

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:08 PM

Whoever's song it was (and yes I could be wrong) the friggin piano still ruins it!

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:06 PM

I've always loved Kathryn Roberts''Plains of Waterloo'- her piano playing is a perfect accompaniment to a beautiful song.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 04:53 PM

June Tabor singin' John Tams' "Pull Down Lads"

Aah thowt 'Let Her Go Down' was a Steeleye song - Aah've gorrit on an album caalled 'Sails Of Silver' and the writing credits are Steeleye Span - not arr. Steeleye Span

Aaawww Look! Aah've been and gone an' become one of them buggaz what nitpick every thread - Aah hate that!

It's like name-droppin' - Aah cannit stand name-droppin'! - Aah wez just sayin' the same te Richard Thompson the other night!

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 04:49 PM

There is a track on Karine Polwart's new album (where she goe back to traditional stuff and not before time) which has a WONDERFUL piano accompaniment, using the fewest notes possible.

Michael Marra (who is no more folk than Leonard Cohen, but often features on the same bill as folkies) is somebody else who uses a piano very effectively.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Gene Burton
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 04:46 PM

Must say, I LOVE Kathleen Ferrier's settings of English folk songs; most of which are accompanied on piano...but as in most cases I guess it's a question of what you do with the instrument, rather than the instrument itself...ANYTHING so powerful it swamps the vocal melody is counter-productive, but less is more...

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 04:35 PM

"I hate them in folk music and Frank Hamilton just about sums it up the reasons why they don't fit. They always remind me of why I was put off English folk music as a child: a plumby voiced sopranoes singing 'Greensleeves' or 'Blow Ye Winds Southerly' to piano accompaniment."

well I do believe we've come a little further down the road since those days...a closed mind is terrible waste you know.

Charlotte ( looking at the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)