BS: Fidel retires

Subject: BS: Fidel retires
From: Stu
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 07:12 AM

The longest-serving communist leader ever has just announced his retirement:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7252109.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 07:13 AM

Is Raul Castro playing second Fidel?

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 07:28 AM

Here's his full letter.

Ends up with a promise to make a few curtain calls: "I shall continue to write under the heading of 'Reflections by comrade Fidel.' It will be just another weapon you can count on. Perhaps my voice will be heard. I shall be careful."

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 08:00 AM

While I have no love for the guy, I will say he is one wiley coyote, having avoided being assassinated by the US all these years.

Sort of explains 9/11, if you know what I mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 08:01 AM

And no, I'm not referring to that other thread about Willie Nelson and 9/11 conspiracies.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 08:47 AM

Fidel is ill and over 80. I respect his sense of responsibility, knowing that it was time to step down. Now, if W had a lick of sense he'd lift the non-working US embargo on Cuba and Cuban goods....

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 09:19 AM

LOL, guest!

But does anybody know if Fidel is even still alive? I mean, anybody can write an email...

And remember Sicko? They have better health care than the US, so he did SOMETHING right!

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:11 AM

Lemme see: Fidel trod the bush of the Sierras; he ousted Batista ["It is estimated that over 20,000 people were murdered by the Batista regime in acts of political repression, most of whom were tortured."] Cuba has lived through the longest embargo on export goods [the USA doesn't want Cuban products], and he left his country a health care system that's better than many around.

I see much to admire about the man.

Viva la Revolucion!

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:19 AM

And I'm going to Cuba next week! Until we get a new (better?) administration, I'll have to enjoy the Cuban cigars down there, but not in the comfort of my own living room.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:20 AM

You could get them from Canada if you want. One of your presidents did.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: gnu
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:34 AM

And some PEI spuds. And some Alberta beef. And....

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 11:34 AM

...some Alberta chicken.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 11:55 AM

And I too say, "Viva La Revolucion!" I've met Cubans who love Fidel. I've met Cubans who hate Fidel. They all have their own good reasons. I've been in Cuba. I respect the man greatly for what he did in his revolution, and I think his country and Latin America in general are better off for it. I applaud him for having survived about 50 years of American attempts to kill him and strangle his revolution...for one reason only: corporate money. He kicked out their big corporations and their Mafia. He gave Cuba back to the ordinary Cubans. They didn't like that one bit.

Don't imagine that Washington cares a hoot about human rights, democracy, liberty or any other such lofty concept in regards to Cuba or the rest of Latin America. Washington has happily trampled upon the liberty and human rights of Latin America about as long as anyone in those countries can remember...because all that matters to Washington is money. They will support any Latin American dictator who keeps those dollars rolling in, and they will finance paramilitary death squads to murder anyone who gets in the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 12:46 PM

I knew a guy who claimed to have been a part of an assassination attempt on Castro!(I worked for him for about a year) He was a 'soldier of fortune' in the late 50s (dual Israeli and Argentine citizenship) and claimed that, during a Castro outdoor speech, he was in a jeep which sped by the crowd and fired at Castro with a machine gun. He said the jeep hit a bump and they missed....

No...I have NO way of substantiating that story.....

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 01:02 PM

The CIA gave Congress many files back in the early 1970s. Indeed, they funded various assassination attempts on Castro. However, Castro is a hard guy to keep down.

******************************************************

Castro with a rebuke for McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 01:22 PM

Just wondering what Barack Obama thinks of this, and what Fidel thinks of Barack. Sure would make for some interesting times if Barack got elected and lifted the sanctions on Cuba...
Or it would tell us who is really in control of the U.S. if everything was "business as usual" between the U.S. and Cuba after the U.S. elections. Depending on who gets in...Or does that even matter?
bob

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 01:50 PM

A great man, he defied the murdering attempts of the "worlds greatest democracy",Viva Fidel.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Beer
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 02:48 PM

Bob, I was thinking along the same line this morning when I heard the news. Wow! What a question to ask the candidates. And where do you stand in light of Fidel resignation?
I hope it is asked and it should.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 03:46 PM

I've always tried to listen to as many viewpoints as I can. And while I've not followed Mr. Castro's activities very closely over the years, there was one interview I did see where he spoke calmly about his people and country and he did not seem to be an unreasonable man.
When you consider the enormous amount of friction that the U.S. has created worldwide by it's policies and actions, you begin to question the validity of sanctions against Cuba. Does the U.S. expect an invasion of Miami? We were at war with Germany and Japan, and now we freely buy their cars, electronics, etc. No problem. What's up with Cuba?
A new administration would do well to align it's policies with the 21st Century and offer to open relations with Cuba. It seems to me this could easily be accomplished with a little negotiation and a bit of generosity by sending an offer of medical supplies and equipment necessary to rebuild the Cuban economy. A "that was then, but this is now attitude" could go far in demonstrating to the world that the "New" U.S. is a force for PEACE...bob

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: alanabit
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 04:31 PM

Cuba is hardly a bastion of democracy and its human rights record may well be as poor as the USA's. However, when you compare the current regime to the one, which it ended, it begins to look a little better. It has adult literacy rates and a health care system to shame the US - and possibly the UK too. None of the other Communist systems were brought down by confrontation alone. I wonder why the US believes that Cuba will prove to be any different?

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 05:03 PM

What's up with Cuba? They interfered in American Big Business, that's what's up. They did not cooperate with "the Godfather" of the Western Hemisphere. That being the case, the mere fact that the Cuban Revolution has survived this long is a virtual miracle, and it says volumes about Castro's abilities and his leadership.

Most of the Cubans I know who support Castro (meaning many that I met when I was in Cuba) support him because he ended a terrible dictatorship, he gave land, education, and medical care to vast numbers of people who had never had those things before, and he improved the lot of most of the poor people in that country considerably. To do so, he had to kick out a lot of foreign corporations and Mafiosi. In doing that, he made a mortal enemy out of the USA, because the USA government is RUN by the richest people in the USA, most of whom are connected with those same corporate forces that Castro kicked out of Cuba.

I have never met young people who impressed me more than the young people I met in Cuba. It is a nation of phenomenal character and courage.

Many Cubans would like to move to the USA (or Canada)...for a variety of reasons...but in most cases, primarily because they are attracted to what they perceive as the affluent North American lifestyle, with all its consumer goods.

In that respect they are no different from the millions and millions of Mexicans, Guatemalans, Chileans, Peruvians, Costa Ricans, and other Latin Americans who ALSO want to move to the USA for precisely the same reasons that the Cubans do....they figure they can do better financially in North America.

One of the Cubans I met down there is a translator, and a very smart man. He has visited Canada a couple of times. I note that he did not seek "refuge" here...he believes in Castro's revolution, even though he could easily earn ten or twenty times his yearly Cuban salary were he to move to Canada. He loves his country and he wants to stay there and contribute to it in the best way he can. It's nice to see someone who values a social ideal over how much money he can put in his wallet. Very refreshing.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 05:09 PM

"And where do you stand in light of Fidel's resignation?"

A pretty easy question to field for any seasoned politician - just talk about new starts and fresh openings and the need to seize any real chance for freedom for the Cuban people, but to avoid acting over hastily. Even quote Bob Dylan - "Don't speak too soon for the wheel's still in spin".

And make no definite promises either way. Easy peasy.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 05:16 PM

Let's not forget that the 'progress and freedom' Castro brought to Cuba were achieved at the cost of other restrictions and an extremely poor economy for many years. I suppose many...those who prospered or had a position of importance...did like him, but many hated him and many died trying to escape Cuba. That says something about trading one repressive regime for another.
Also...it is not a trivial thing that Castro's courting of the Soviets and allowing missles to be installed in 1962, brought the world about as close to a nuclear war as at any time.
Yes...it is time to reassess our relationship with Cuba, but there are many pitfalls to doing so, and I hope it will be undetaken with great care. Cuba is one of the last bastions of Communism, and the Castro influence is still strong.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 05:17 PM

"...they are no different from the millions and millions of Mexicans etc"

Or from the hundred of thousands of Poles who've come to work in England the last few years. Not refugees fleeing oppression, just young people trying to get by, from a country where good jobs which paid well have been hard to find. (And now things are getting better in the old country, and they are starting to head back home, which is great for them, but a bit of a drag for us, because their presence has tended to improve the place.)

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 05:55 PM

"Communism" as the symbol it is constantly touted as in North American media is a myth.

What the Cubans have is not communism. It is socialism. There is nothing inherently evil about socialism.

Now the primary reason the economy suffered badly after Castro's revolution was that the USA put a trade embargo on Cuba (as retaliation for Castro's nationalization of American corporate holdings in Cuba). Can you imagine what that did to the Cuban economy? There was simply no way they could survive financially at that point without finding a sponsor in Soviet Russia. It was necessitated by sheer pragmatism.

Castro would not have wanted any Russian missiles in Cuba, except for the fact that he fully expected the USA to sponsor further invasion attempts despite the failure of the abortive Bay of Pigs invasion. He needed a persuasive deterrent against the potentially overwhelming forces the USA could bring against him if they chose. This also suited the Russians, because the USA already had Russia ringed with nuclear missiles on the soil of American allies...such as Turkey and many countries in western Europe. America already had an early strike capability on Russia. Why would Russia not want to do the same thing and arm its new ally Cuba in a similar fashion?

The crucial mistake the Russians made (in a diplomatic and propaganda sense) was they tried to keep it a secret! This was very foolish! They should have done it openly, saying, "Look, you've done this to us already. You've put nuclear missiles right near our borders on Turkish soil and in other countries that are allied to you, so why can we not do it in Cuba?"

But since they tried to do it secretly, it became a huge issue at the U.N., and they again made the mistake of initially denying it (probably because their U.N. ambassador had not even been briefed on the matter yet).

The USA was already overflying both Russia and Cuba with U2 spyplanes. That's illegal, Bill. 100% illegal. It's technically an act of war. What would have happened if the Russians had brazenly attempted to overfly the USA with Russian spyplanes in that same time period???? War, that's what.

You see, the USA always wants to have its cake and eat it too. It wants to do what no one else is ever allowed to do...send spyplanes into foreign airspace, invade other countries, topple regimes, bomb other countries, launch pre-emptive wars...but if anyone else (except Israel) does those same things, well, the USA is ready to start the Third World War over it.

This is a degree of hubris, egocentricity, and a double standard that strangely seems to go unnoticed by many Americans...though not necessarily by the rest of the world. It is arrogance comparable to that of Imperial Rome at its height.

The Cubans had every legal right in 1962 to station Russian nuclear missiles on their territory if they wanted to, just as American allies legally station American military forces of a similar sort on their territory if they want to. Double standards do not have any justification in this matter.

It is ludicrous to think that the Cubans wanted those missiles in order to make a first attack on the USA. Why on earth would they do that? It could only have resulted in their own annihilation with the inevitable American counterstrike. No, the missiles were there so that the USA would most definitely be dissuaded from launching an invasion of Cuba. They were a deterrent. The Cubans had every reason to want such a deterrent.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 06:22 PM

spying in the U2 days was ubiquitous..everyone did it. It probably kept us from war, because everyone had some idea of the others' strengths. That doesn't excuse some of the worst examples, but it DOES justify using measures to figure out what the USSR/Cuba stuff was all about.

You seem very concerned over the years to dwell on perceived flaws in US policy or attitudes and to minimize similar things elsewhere. No country run by human beings gets perfect marks in altruism, but the US at least has a system and rules that do some good things...when we haven't carelessly elected some idiot with delusions...

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Greg B
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 06:37 PM

A benevolent despot is still a despot.

Mussolini made the trains run on time.

You have to be really obtuse not to see the problem with someone
ruling a country as a virtual dictator for half a century.

Imagine 50 years of Dubyah.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 06:50 PM

"Imagine 50 years of Dubyah."

I don't imagine the Cubans would have put up with that!

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 06:56 PM

From BBC WORLD NEWS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwKNWL-BoIo
bob

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 07:09 PM

You know, at the time of the revolution, I could still agree that Castro was a pretty good leader. But his administration has been extremely repressive, democratic values have been completely sublimated in lieu of him holding on to power, and the human rights record in Cuba reflects that.

The Castro regime became increasingly brutal over time. God knows, they had plenty to be legitimately paranoid about regarding the US and the revolution's enemies both internal and external (via the exile community). But none of that, IMO, is justification for the way the Castro regime went.

That said, I'm tremendously hopeful about Cuba's future, and I sure hope I get there before the embargo gets lifted.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 07:28 PM

The Dove of Peace...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flXuZL_SJYU
bob

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 07:34 PM

True, Guest. It is unfortunate. I wonder what it would have been like had this man stayed in Cuba. I always had the feeling that for Fidel it was about gaining power, and for Che it was about revolution--in the sense of 'freeing' farmers/workers from oppressive conditions. In my heart of hearts, I think had he stayed in Cuba he'd have met a similar end. But the gun would have been fired by someone closer to him than American special forces-trained Bolivian soldiers. I suppose we'll never know.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 08:16 PM

Found this. Fidel Castro Speaks to Harlem... So many brilliant moments. It's long, so I've chosen Part 3 to begin...The rest is up to you...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7dJ8QbClTs&feature=related
bob

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 08:42 PM

I think both Fidel and Che were both social idealists, a study of their lives makes that obvious, but Che was more of a romantic. He was reckless, always ready to take the most phenomenal risks, and Fidel often had to rein him in or he would have been killed long before the revolution was even accomplished.

It's beyond question that Fidel has not run a democratic system in the sense of what we have in North America, but he could not have, given the particular circumstances in Cuba...without the whole thing falling apart. It would have led to the defeat of his entire attempt to do what he has done there, which was to create a socialist society where everyone has a modern education, medical care, and the other progressive measures he brought in. If you read the history of Cuba, and I have, you can see what has happened there every time a multi-party system was attempted. It became unstable very quickly, fragmented, fell apart, and a military dictatorship took over. Not a dictatorship that did anything for the poor people, but one that ruled by the rich for the rich and sold the island out to foreign interests. That's exactly what would have happened had Fidel simply handed things over to a typical multi-party democracy after his victory in '59. The new government would have lasted 1 to 3 years, fallen, and been replaced by another set of military robber barons, the Mafia and the corporations would have been right back in, the poor would have been as poor as they ever were, and it would have been another American-backed dictatorship like Batista.

I believe Fidel did the only thing he could do to hold that place together...and yes, there were excesses and oppressive actions by his government. They were at war. They've been at war ever since 1959, because the USA has never let up. It's been a cold war, but it's a war.

Cuba is not Milwaukee or Toronto. We in North America have a stable tradition of over 200 years of past liberal democracy to build on. They did not. It is unrealistic to think that Fidel or anyone else could have delivered them into a modern liberal democracy in 1959 that would be stable and would endure. Simply no way.

The same is actually true of Russia. If you try to govern Russia in the way we are presently governed in North America, it doesn't work. It gets taken over by their mafia and their criminal gangs and it all goes to hell in a few years...as occurred under Yeltsin. Putin understands that very well, and that's why he is doing what he's doing in Russia too...tightening the government's authority.

What works there doesn't work here. What works here doesn't work in Cuba. We're an apple, they're an orange, and you know what they say about comparing apples and oranges.

Castro's new biography is a very interesting read. It's also about a mile thick. You won't read it in one weekend.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 08:45 PM

"If you try to govern Russia in the way we are presently governed in North America, it doesn't work. It gets taken over by their mafia and their criminal gangs and it all goes to hell in a few years...as occurred under Yeltsin."

Yeah. They got the mafia and criminal gangs and we got multi-nationals and corporations. Sometimes I just fail to see the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 09:50 PM

So I'm watching the report on CBS this AM and there's Dumbya giving a speech in which he discusses Castro and Cuba. He's rambling along butchering the language as well as Castro and then he pledges to help the Cuban people "......have free and fair elections. AND I DO mean FREE and I DO mean FAIR!"

Yeah....right........Like that pissant would know what a "Fair Election" was if one chomped down on his half inch prick! Sadly the limpdick jadrool believes his own rhetoric..............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:08 PM

The biggest violation of human rights in Cuba happens at Guatanimo Bay. Hard to blame Castro for that!

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Kent Davis
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:31 PM

Is there ever an event of any kind, anywhere in the world that, upon being mentioned on Mudcat, does not bring forth criticism of the United States?

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:37 PM

Yes. The Westminster. It's a dog show at Madison Square Gardens.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: bankley
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:44 PM

here's one.... the last time Fidel Castro was in Canada he was sitting right beside former US President Jimmy Carter at Pierre Trudeau's funeral at L'Eglise Notre Dame in Montreal...

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:52 PM

By the way, they HAVE elections in Cuba.

Here's a link about it:

Cuban elections in 1997

It's a radically different approach to ours in North America, and I frankly think that it is more likely to result in genuine democratic choices than ours is, because it is a process entirely free of lobbyists' money, media hype, and dirty campaign tricks, and it comes straight from the common people. The common people decide who runs in their riding, and they decide who wins when they cast their votes.

I think the Cuban election system is far better than ours is, and it costs very little to do it. You don't need to raise many millions of dollars to elect someone in Cuba. Every candidate gets a totally equal chance, because money is simply not a determining factor. The only determining factor is whether the public likes you and your ideas and your character better than they like the other candidates in that riding.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:57 PM

Actually the Westminster Kennel Club as well as the show itself are wholly American in their attitudes displaying the same damned "We're the Greatest and You Can Fuck Off" attitude known so well by our neighbors on the planet. The WKC follows the AKC in this and instead of standing up for the breed and it's world-wide history and influence they tag along with the American Kennel Club.

Here's an example near and dear to me.........Longhair Weimaraners are not recognized for conformation show competition in the United States although they can be registered and are eligible for agility, obedience, and field trial competition. But everywhere else in the world and they are recognized for all competition and even highly sought after in many places including Germany, the ancestral home of the breed (obviously). Longhairs developed right alongside their shorthair brethren but when they came to the U.S.A. they were verboten. The story is too long and too damn silly to tell, but once again, the United States sucks owl dicks!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 11:03 PM

Hmmm. Okay, cross the Westminster off the list, then.

I'm thinkin'. Boy, this is a tough one. Hmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 11:04 PM

Linoleum?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Kent Davis
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 11:15 PM

Thanks for trying, Little Hawk. You inspired me to start a separate thread of things that don't call forth criticism of the U.S. By the time I did, using your kind example, it had already been shot down.
But I appreciate the thought.

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:07 AM

OK, I've come up with the beginnings of a song...

Fidel- I's Me..

TTO: Why not take all of me....
   or Jealousy (actually a blend works well) :-)

:-P

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:13 AM

Fidel...ma belle...these are words that go together well...my Fidel...

Okay, the word "belle" is the wrong gender, but I still think it has possibilities. ;-)

Fidel means "one who is faithful".

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:14 AM

"The US will help the people of Cuba enjoy the blessings of Liberty."

G. W. Big-Foot-in-Mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:17 AM

From the thread list...

BS: Fidel retires         
BS: Not U.S.'s fault

Damn! and after all those years of trying too...

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:20 AM

BTW - Cuba is currently having elections... see Little Hawk link of 19 Feb 08 - 10:52 above...

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:32 AM

I always like d the story of the captured right wing mercenaries imprisoned after the US sponsored Bay Of Pigs invasion who were only released after the deal of one tractor for one mercenary.
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Kweku
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 04:09 AM

I will also say, "Viva La Revolucion!" because as far my memory serves me right Cuba has done more for countries like my own, by providing medical doctors for very remote ,unmotorable areas where our own doctors would not hesitate to shun.

Yesterday I heard Prez Bush talking about Castro's exit and how Cubans could now look to a bright future, and the question I ask myself is, so you punish millions of people over five decades all because of one man. indeed there is nothing under the sun more fascinating than US foreign policy.

"Viva La Revolucion!"

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 07:53 AM

I never cease to be amazed at the short sightedness of our so called "free country" governments or the ignorance and propaganda that they sometimes would have us accept. Years ago Trudeau went against the allied grain saying that Castro was not the demon portrayed and extended the hand of friendship (got him on the CIA watch list and the Mafia hit list). Since then Canadian media has been free to visit Cuba and report without interference on life there. Canadians have been free to visit and it is a prime winter vacation destination. What happened 50 years ago was a civil war and one side had to be the loser, and that was the most corrupt one as well. Refugees from that war still live in the USA mostly in Florida and USA policy is still driven by their demands for retribution. Didn't Florida cast enough funny ballots to elect a president with the help of the state governor? Is this what Bush wants as "free elections" for Cuba?
That all being said there is hope that November elections in the USA may see a return of esteem to a country that has done much for the world, but has tarnished its image to that of an international bully.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 08:34 AM

Fido, my beau...

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 08:53 AM

But does anybody know if Fidel is even still alive? asked Mrrzy.

Here's a picture which was taken by Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva during their meeting in Havana Jan. 15, 2008.(Xinhua/Reuters Photo) - He looks pretty much alive to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 09:13 AM

Here is cartoonist Steve Bell's comment on Bush's response, from today's Guardian.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Beer
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 09:21 AM

Interesting poll being taken by CNN. Of course they don't say how many have called in. The question being asked is: Are you in favor of lifting the embargo on Cuba? Yes: 82% No: 18%

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 10:00 AM

I will have you know that not once on the anchovy thread was there a criticism of the USA or USA anchovies. FYI!

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: pdq
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 01:26 PM

" In the book-in-progress The Human Costs of Social Revolutions:  The Black Book on Cuba by Dr. Armando Lago that will be published in 1999, he is making an attempt to list Castro's deaths since 1959.  With Castro in power, obtaining information is very difficult, but so far the deaths of 97,000 persons have been named, each confirmed by at least two sources.  Some 30,000 executed by firing squad, 2,000 extra-judicial assassinations, 5,000 deaths in prison due to beating by guards and denial of medical care and 60,000 deaths while trying to escape Cuba by sea.

The victims counted so far by Dr. Lago include 21 US citizens.  Of them, only the body of Captain Thomas Willard Ray has been returned to his family in the US.  The rest of the bodies remain unburied and on display at the museums of the revolution and morgues throughout Cuba.  Dr. Lago also found among the deaths 1 British, 1 Dane, 1 Haitian and 6 Spaniards.  Ofelia Garcia Menocal, the International Relations Secretary of the World Federation of Former Cuban Political Prisoners, reported that, some months ago, organizations of Cuban exiles in Spain presented in Madrid to judge overGarzon, a list of Spaniards killed in Cuba by Castro, with supporting documentation provided by their descendents.

Dr. Lago's book does not account for the thousands killed in Central and South America by Castro-sponsored guerrillas, nor the thousands killed by Castro's troops in Africa, nor the deaths due to the drug-trafficking Castro still fosters into the US or those killed in Spain by the separatist organization E.T.A. using terrorist trained by Castro."
                                 


                                     from here

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 04:20 PM

A google search on Dr. Armando Lago turns up a lot of rhetoric by him that seems lacking in objectivity. He seems to blame Castro for everything since the great flood but credits him for nothing. I would guess that he has an axe to grind.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: DougR
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 08:01 PM

Yep, no doubt about it, the Cubans have a life of luxury with Fidel and now his brother in charge.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 08:05 PM

The sky is falling, Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 08:14 PM

Yes, Doug, disaster looms. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 08:31 PM

No Doug, life is far from luxury under the Castros but the thing most to blame is the USA embargo. However in spite of that education and health care would shame many richer nations so they must be doing something right.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 08:36 PM

Life has been better under Castro that it was under Batista.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 09:04 PM

Considerably better under Castro than Batista! Unless you were one of the Mafiosi or the rich business people cashing in under Batista.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 09:12 PM

I usually go w/the pros in terms of determining where a country/regime is at regarding conditions inside another country.

Indeed, the main event in terms of human rights focus in Cuba right now is Guantanamo. However, this is plucked off Human Rights Watch's website today, and seems to sum things up pretty well:

Cuba: Fidel Castro's Abusive Machinery Remains Intact
Major Obstacles Remain for Human Rights

(Washington, DC, February 19, 2008) – Despite Fidel Castro's resignation today, Cuba's abusive legal and institutional mechanisms continue to deprive Cubans of their basic rights, Human Rights Watch said today. The counterproductive US embargo policy continues to give the Cuban government a pretext for human rights violations.
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"Even if Castro no longer calls the shots, the repressive machinery he constructed over almost half a century remains fully intact," said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch. "Until that changes, it's unlikely there will be any real progress on human rights in Cuba."

For almost five decades, Cuba has restricted nearly all avenues of political dissent. Cuban citizens have been systematically deprived of their fundamental rights to free expression, privacy, association, assembly, movement, and due process of law. Tactics for enforcing political conformity have included police warnings, surveillance, short-term detentions, house arrests, travel restrictions, criminal prosecutions, and politically motivated dismissals from employment.

Cuba's legal and institutional structures have been at the root of its rights violations. The rights to freedom of expression, association, assembly, movement, and the press are strictly limited under Cuban law. By criminalizing enemy propaganda, the spreading of "unauthorized news," and insult to patriotic symbols, the government curbs freedom of speech under the guise of protecting state security. The courts are not independent; they undermine the right to fair trial by restricting the right to a defense, and frequently fail to observe the few due process rights available to defendants under domestic law.

"Since Fidel Castro first turned power over to his brother, the Cuban government has occasionally indicated a willingness to reconsider its approach to human rights," said Vivanco. "But so far it hasn't taken any of the steps needed to end its abusive practices."

In December 2007, the Cuban government announced its intention to ratify the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. The ratification, if it occurs, would represent an important break from Cuba's longstanding refusal to recognize these core human rights treaties.

However, the Cuban government still needs to take concrete steps to decriminalize political dissent, Human Rights Watch said. Specifically, it should unconditionally release all political dissidents. It should also repeal the provisions of the penal code that provide the basis for gross violations of human rights.

"This would be a good time for the US government to revisit its failed embargo policy," said Vivanco. "By lifting the embargo, Washington could deprive Raúl Castro of the underdog image that his brother exploited so effectively."

For more than four decades, the US government has used Cuba's dismal rights record to justify a sweeping economic embargo aimed at toppling the Castro regime. Yet the policy did nothing to bring change to Cuba. On the contrary, it helped consolidate Castro's hold on power by providing his government with an excuse for its problems and a justification for its abuses. Moreover, because the policy was imposed in such a heavy-handed fashion, it enabled Castro to garner sympathy abroad, neutralizing international pressure rather than increasing it.

"The Bush administration should end the trade and travel bans that hurt both ordinary Cubans and their Cuban-American relatives," Vivanco said. "After a half century of ineffective policies, it's time for the US to adopt a more pragmatic, multilateral approach in pressing Cuba to respect political freedoms."

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 09:36 PM

If the USA were to lift the embargo and return control of Guantanamo Bay it would show a lot of good faith to start the healing. I hope that a new administration of American government will do so! Cuba as well must do it's part in extending the hand of friendship and countries such as Canada that are friends to both should be willing to help and Cuba could and should be welcomed into the OAS. Maybe then we can influence how human rights are applied.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 09:45 PM

Absolutely Sandy. Meantime, I vote we USians continue to defy the embargo, and go spend US tourist dollars there, if we can.

Like I said, I really, really hope I get to go & soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 10:04 PM

Y'know, things are tough in a lot of other Latin American countries too. How nice do you think the police are in Mexico and Pero and Guatemala? If you want to compare Cuba to someone, compare them to the other Latin American countries. They provide free education and free medical care to their people. They send doctors all over the Third World to other countries where they are needed. What other Latin American countries do that? There are a lot of Latin American countries whose human rights violations and abuses exceed Cuba's by far and whose people are far worse off...but the USA is not embargoing any of them. Why? Why do we not hear about the awful things that happen to people in Latin American countries that are allied WITH the USA?

Simple. The real issue between the USA and Cuba has nothing to do with human rights, liberty, or freedom. It has to do with corporate dollars. Period. They want Castro and his socialist revolution gone so that American businesses can exploit Cuba the way they did when Batista was there. That's all it's about. The rest is a bunch of phony, self-serving rhetoric.

The anti-Castro forces would do nothing with that island if they took it over but hand it back to the multinational corporations, the rich crooks, and another client dictator...or some phony new political party (made in the USA) that bows down to corporate power like a little slave and does exactly what corporate America tells them to do. That's how it works in Latin America, and it's been working that way ever since anyone alive today can remember.

You either play ball with North American corporate power in the western hemisphere...or you are an official enemy, marked for death.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 10:18 PM

Watching a bit of a Jon Stewart interview on Larry King, they had a clip of somebody else, David Letterman? Anyway, his contribution to this thread was pretty good, I thought--maybe everybody hasn't heard it:

They don't really know who's going to succeed Castro. Either his brother Raul-- or his idiot son Fidel W. Castro.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 08:47 AM

..."The counterproductive US embargo policy continues to give the Cuban government a pretext for human rights violations."

What turns "a reason" or "a cause" into "a pretext"?

If someone keeps hitting me on the head I think it's a bit premature to accuse me of using that as a pretext for saying my head hurt, at the very least until he'd stopped hitting me on the head.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: GUEST,Colin Rudd
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 02:53 AM

Try this tribute to the great man....corny but sincere!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM61LDC0eZk

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 03:57 AM

When Fidel retires, do you think he'll go with Goodyear or Michelin?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 01:22 PM

LOL Spaw! In Cuba the cars are so old that they run best in bias ply tires. I don't think Michelin makes em.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 03:48 AM

Anybody who can give the world's greatest ******** (fill in the appropriate) the finger for half a century and transform a country from 'America's open sewer' to the progressive country Cuba has become, despite embargoes, assassination attempts, invasions, and living next door to the world's most anti-social and predatory neighbours gets my support any day.
Nice cartoon in The Irish Times this week showing Bush Baby saying "now we can look forward to democracy in Cuba", then of him leaning over the fence at Guantanamo saying "well.... maybe just some of Cuba"!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: fumblefingers
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 11:56 PM

Maybe the old bugger will be considered for sainthood once he finally goes CU.