BS: Fidel retires

Subject: BS: Fidel retires
From: Stu
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 07:12 AM

The longest-serving communist leader ever has just announced his retirement:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7252109.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 07:13 AM

Is Raul Castro playing second Fidel?

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 07:28 AM

Here's his full letter.

Ends up with a promise to make a few curtain calls: "I shall continue to write under the heading of 'Reflections by comrade Fidel.' It will be just another weapon you can count on. Perhaps my voice will be heard. I shall be careful."

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 08:00 AM

While I have no love for the guy, I will say he is one wiley coyote, having avoided being assassinated by the US all these years.

Sort of explains 9/11, if you know what I mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 08:01 AM

And no, I'm not referring to that other thread about Willie Nelson and 9/11 conspiracies.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 08:47 AM

Fidel is ill and over 80. I respect his sense of responsibility, knowing that it was time to step down. Now, if W had a lick of sense he'd lift the non-working US embargo on Cuba and Cuban goods....

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 09:19 AM

LOL, guest!

But does anybody know if Fidel is even still alive? I mean, anybody can write an email...

And remember Sicko? They have better health care than the US, so he did SOMETHING right!

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:11 AM

Lemme see: Fidel trod the bush of the Sierras; he ousted Batista ["It is estimated that over 20,000 people were murdered by the Batista regime in acts of political repression, most of whom were tortured."] Cuba has lived through the longest embargo on export goods [the USA doesn't want Cuban products], and he left his country a health care system that's better than many around.

I see much to admire about the man.

Viva la Revolucion!

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:19 AM

And I'm going to Cuba next week! Until we get a new (better?) administration, I'll have to enjoy the Cuban cigars down there, but not in the comfort of my own living room.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:20 AM

You could get them from Canada if you want. One of your presidents did.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: gnu
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:34 AM

And some PEI spuds. And some Alberta beef. And....

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 11:34 AM

...some Alberta chicken.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 11:55 AM

And I too say, "Viva La Revolucion!" I've met Cubans who love Fidel. I've met Cubans who hate Fidel. They all have their own good reasons. I've been in Cuba. I respect the man greatly for what he did in his revolution, and I think his country and Latin America in general are better off for it. I applaud him for having survived about 50 years of American attempts to kill him and strangle his revolution...for one reason only: corporate money. He kicked out their big corporations and their Mafia. He gave Cuba back to the ordinary Cubans. They didn't like that one bit.

Don't imagine that Washington cares a hoot about human rights, democracy, liberty or any other such lofty concept in regards to Cuba or the rest of Latin America. Washington has happily trampled upon the liberty and human rights of Latin America about as long as anyone in those countries can remember...because all that matters to Washington is money. They will support any Latin American dictator who keeps those dollars rolling in, and they will finance paramilitary death squads to murder anyone who gets in the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 12:46 PM

I knew a guy who claimed to have been a part of an assassination attempt on Castro!(I worked for him for about a year) He was a 'soldier of fortune' in the late 50s (dual Israeli and Argentine citizenship) and claimed that, during a Castro outdoor speech, he was in a jeep which sped by the crowd and fired at Castro with a machine gun. He said the jeep hit a bump and they missed....

No...I have NO way of substantiating that story.....

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 01:02 PM

The CIA gave Congress many files back in the early 1970s. Indeed, they funded various assassination attempts on Castro. However, Castro is a hard guy to keep down.

******************************************************

Castro with a rebuke for McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 01:22 PM

Just wondering what Barack Obama thinks of this, and what Fidel thinks of Barack. Sure would make for some interesting times if Barack got elected and lifted the sanctions on Cuba...
Or it would tell us who is really in control of the U.S. if everything was "business as usual" between the U.S. and Cuba after the U.S. elections. Depending on who gets in...Or does that even matter?
bob

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 01:50 PM

A great man, he defied the murdering attempts of the "worlds greatest democracy",Viva Fidel.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Beer
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 02:48 PM

Bob, I was thinking along the same line this morning when I heard the news. Wow! What a question to ask the candidates. And where do you stand in light of Fidel resignation?
I hope it is asked and it should.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 03:46 PM

I've always tried to listen to as many viewpoints as I can. And while I've not followed Mr. Castro's activities very closely over the years, there was one interview I did see where he spoke calmly about his people and country and he did not seem to be an unreasonable man.
When you consider the enormous amount of friction that the U.S. has created worldwide by it's policies and actions, you begin to question the validity of sanctions against Cuba. Does the U.S. expect an invasion of Miami? We were at war with Germany and Japan, and now we freely buy their cars, electronics, etc. No problem. What's up with Cuba?
A new administration would do well to align it's policies with the 21st Century and offer to open relations with Cuba. It seems to me this could easily be accomplished with a little negotiation and a bit of generosity by sending an offer of medical supplies and equipment necessary to rebuild the Cuban economy. A "that was then, but this is now attitude" could go far in demonstrating to the world that the "New" U.S. is a force for PEACE...bob

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: alanabit
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 04:31 PM

Cuba is hardly a bastion of democracy and its human rights record may well be as poor as the USA's. However, when you compare the current regime to the one, which it ended, it begins to look a little better. It has adult literacy rates and a health care system to shame the US - and possibly the UK too. None of the other Communist systems were brought down by confrontation alone. I wonder why the US believes that Cuba will prove to be any different?

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 05:03 PM

What's up with Cuba? They interfered in American Big Business, that's what's up. They did not cooperate with "the Godfather" of the Western Hemisphere. That being the case, the mere fact that the Cuban Revolution has survived this long is a virtual miracle, and it says volumes about Castro's abilities and his leadership.

Most of the Cubans I know who support Castro (meaning many that I met when I was in Cuba) support him because he ended a terrible dictatorship, he gave land, education, and medical care to vast numbers of people who had never had those things before, and he improved the lot of most of the poor people in that country considerably. To do so, he had to kick out a lot of foreign corporations and Mafiosi. In doing that, he made a mortal enemy out of the USA, because the USA government is RUN by the richest people in the USA, most of whom are connected with those same corporate forces that Castro kicked out of Cuba.

I have never met young people who impressed me more than the young people I met in Cuba. It is a nation of phenomenal character and courage.

Many Cubans would like to move to the USA (or Canada)...for a variety of reasons...but in most cases, primarily because they are attracted to what they perceive as the affluent North American lifestyle, with all its consumer goods.

In that respect they are no different from the millions and millions of Mexicans, Guatemalans, Chileans, Peruvians, Costa Ricans, and other Latin Americans who ALSO want to move to the USA for precisely the same reasons that the Cubans do....they figure they can do better financially in North America.

One of the Cubans I met down there is a translator, and a very smart man. He has visited Canada a couple of times. I note that he did not seek "refuge" here...he believes in Castro's revolution, even though he could easily earn ten or twenty times his yearly Cuban salary were he to move to Canada. He loves his country and he wants to stay there and contribute to it in the best way he can. It's nice to see someone who values a social ideal over how much money he can put in his wallet. Very refreshing.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 05:09 PM

"And where do you stand in light of Fidel's resignation?"

A pretty easy question to field for any seasoned politician - just talk about new starts and fresh openings and the need to seize any real chance for freedom for the Cuban people, but to avoid acting over hastily. Even quote Bob Dylan - "Don't speak too soon for the wheel's still in spin".

And make no definite promises either way. Easy peasy.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 05:16 PM

Let's not forget that the 'progress and freedom' Castro brought to Cuba were achieved at the cost of other restrictions and an extremely poor economy for many years. I suppose many...those who prospered or had a position of importance...did like him, but many hated him and many died trying to escape Cuba. That says something about trading one repressive regime for another.
Also...it is not a trivial thing that Castro's courting of the Soviets and allowing missles to be installed in 1962, brought the world about as close to a nuclear war as at any time.
Yes...it is time to reassess our relationship with Cuba, but there are many pitfalls to doing so, and I hope it will be undetaken with great care. Cuba is one of the last bastions of Communism, and the Castro influence is still strong.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 05:17 PM

"...they are no different from the millions and millions of Mexicans etc"

Or from the hundred of thousands of Poles who've come to work in England the last few years. Not refugees fleeing oppression, just young people trying to get by, from a country where good jobs which paid well have been hard to find. (And now things are getting better in the old country, and they are starting to head back home, which is great for them, but a bit of a drag for us, because their presence has tended to improve the place.)

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 05:55 PM

"Communism" as the symbol it is constantly touted as in North American media is a myth.

What the Cubans have is not communism. It is socialism. There is nothing inherently evil about socialism.

Now the primary reason the economy suffered badly after Castro's revolution was that the USA put a trade embargo on Cuba (as retaliation for Castro's nationalization of American corporate holdings in Cuba). Can you imagine what that did to the Cuban economy? There was simply no way they could survive financially at that point without finding a sponsor in Soviet Russia. It was necessitated by sheer pragmatism.

Castro would not have wanted any Russian missiles in Cuba, except for the fact that he fully expected the USA to sponsor further invasion attempts despite the failure of the abortive Bay of Pigs invasion. He needed a persuasive deterrent against the potentially overwhelming forces the USA could bring against him if they chose. This also suited the Russians, because the USA already had Russia ringed with nuclear missiles on the soil of American allies...such as Turkey and many countries in western Europe. America already had an early strike capability on Russia. Why would Russia not want to do the same thing and arm its new ally Cuba in a similar fashion?

The crucial mistake the Russians made (in a diplomatic and propaganda sense) was they tried to keep it a secret! This was very foolish! They should have done it openly, saying, "Look, you've done this to us already. You've put nuclear missiles right near our borders on Turkish soil and in other countries that are allied to you, so why can we not do it in Cuba?"

But since they tried to do it secretly, it became a huge issue at the U.N., and they again made the mistake of initially denying it (probably because their U.N. ambassador had not even been briefed on the matter yet).

The USA was already overflying both Russia and Cuba with U2 spyplanes. That's illegal, Bill. 100% illegal. It's technically an act of war. What would have happened if the Russians had brazenly attempted to overfly the USA with Russian spyplanes in that same time period???? War, that's what.

You see, the USA always wants to have its cake and eat it too. It wants to do what no one else is ever allowed to do...send spyplanes into foreign airspace, invade other countries, topple regimes, bomb other countries, launch pre-emptive wars...but if anyone else (except Israel) does those same things, well, the USA is ready to start the Third World War over it.

This is a degree of hubris, egocentricity, and a double standard that strangely seems to go unnoticed by many Americans...though not necessarily by the rest of the world. It is arrogance comparable to that of Imperial Rome at its height.

The Cubans had every legal right in 1962 to station Russian nuclear missiles on their territory if they wanted to, just as American allies legally station American military forces of a similar sort on their territory if they want to. Double standards do not have any justification in this matter.

It is ludicrous to think that the Cubans wanted those missiles in order to make a first attack on the USA. Why on earth would they do that? It could only have resulted in their own annihilation with the inevitable American counterstrike. No, the missiles were there so that the USA would most definitely be dissuaded from launching an invasion of Cuba. They were a deterrent. The Cubans had every reason to want such a deterrent.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 06:22 PM

spying in the U2 days was ubiquitous..everyone did it. It probably kept us from war, because everyone had some idea of the others' strengths. That doesn't excuse some of the worst examples, but it DOES justify using measures to figure out what the USSR/Cuba stuff was all about.

You seem very concerned over the years to dwell on perceived flaws in US policy or attitudes and to minimize similar things elsewhere. No country run by human beings gets perfect marks in altruism, but the US at least has a system and rules that do some good things...when we haven't carelessly elected some idiot with delusions...

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Greg B
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 06:37 PM

A benevolent despot is still a despot.

Mussolini made the trains run on time.

You have to be really obtuse not to see the problem with someone
ruling a country as a virtual dictator for half a century.

Imagine 50 years of Dubyah.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 06:50 PM

"Imagine 50 years of Dubyah."

I don't imagine the Cubans would have put up with that!

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 06:56 PM

From BBC WORLD NEWS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwKNWL-BoIo
bob

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 07:09 PM

You know, at the time of the revolution, I could still agree that Castro was a pretty good leader. But his administration has been extremely repressive, democratic values have been completely sublimated in lieu of him holding on to power, and the human rights record in Cuba reflects that.

The Castro regime became increasingly brutal over time. God knows, they had plenty to be legitimately paranoid about regarding the US and the revolution's enemies both internal and external (via the exile community). But none of that, IMO, is justification for the way the Castro regime went.

That said, I'm tremendously hopeful about Cuba's future, and I sure hope I get there before the embargo gets lifted.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 07:28 PM

The Dove of Peace...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flXuZL_SJYU
bob

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 07:34 PM

True, Guest. It is unfortunate. I wonder what it would have been like had this man stayed in Cuba. I always had the feeling that for Fidel it was about gaining power, and for Che it was about revolution--in the sense of 'freeing' farmers/workers from oppressive conditions. In my heart of hearts, I think had he stayed in Cuba he'd have met a similar end. But the gun would have been fired by someone closer to him than American special forces-trained Bolivian soldiers. I suppose we'll never know.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 08:16 PM

Found this. Fidel Castro Speaks to Harlem... So many brilliant moments. It's long, so I've chosen Part 3 to begin...The rest is up to you...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7dJ8QbClTs&feature=related
bob

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 08:42 PM

I think both Fidel and Che were both social idealists, a study of their lives makes that obvious, but Che was more of a romantic. He was reckless, always ready to take the most phenomenal risks, and Fidel often had to rein him in or he would have been killed long before the revolution was even accomplished.

It's beyond question that Fidel has not run a democratic system in the sense of what we have in North America, but he could not have, given the particular circumstances in Cuba...without the whole thing falling apart. It would have led to the defeat of his entire attempt to do what he has done there, which was to create a socialist society where everyone has a modern education, medical care, and the other progressive measures he brought in. If you read the history of Cuba, and I have, you can see what has happened there every time a multi-party system was attempted. It became unstable very quickly, fragmented, fell apart, and a military dictatorship took over. Not a dictatorship that did anything for the poor people, but one that ruled by the rich for the rich and sold the island out to foreign interests. That's exactly what would have happened had Fidel simply handed things over to a typical multi-party democracy after his victory in '59. The new government would have lasted 1 to 3 years, fallen, and been replaced by another set of military robber barons, the Mafia and the corporations would have been right back in, the poor would have been as poor as they ever were, and it would have been another American-backed dictatorship like Batista.

I believe Fidel did the only thing he could do to hold that place together...and yes, there were excesses and oppressive actions by his government. They were at war. They've been at war ever since 1959, because the USA has never let up. It's been a cold war, but it's a war.

Cuba is not Milwaukee or Toronto. We in North America have a stable tradition of over 200 years of past liberal democracy to build on. They did not. It is unrealistic to think that Fidel or anyone else could have delivered them into a modern liberal democracy in 1959 that would be stable and would endure. Simply no way.

The same is actually true of Russia. If you try to govern Russia in the way we are presently governed in North America, it doesn't work. It gets taken over by their mafia and their criminal gangs and it all goes to hell in a few years...as occurred under Yeltsin. Putin understands that very well, and that's why he is doing what he's doing in Russia too...tightening the government's authority.

What works there doesn't work here. What works here doesn't work in Cuba. We're an apple, they're an orange, and you know what they say about comparing apples and oranges.

Castro's new biography is a very interesting read. It's also about a mile thick. You won't read it in one weekend.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 08:45 PM

"If you try to govern Russia in the way we are presently governed in North America, it doesn't work. It gets taken over by their mafia and their criminal gangs and it all goes to hell in a few years...as occurred under Yeltsin."

Yeah. They got the mafia and criminal gangs and we got multi-nationals and corporations. Sometimes I just fail to see the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 09:50 PM

So I'm watching the report on CBS this AM and there's Dumbya giving a speech in which he discusses Castro and Cuba. He's rambling along butchering the language as well as Castro and then he pledges to help the Cuban people "......have free and fair elections. AND I DO mean FREE and I DO mean FAIR!"

Yeah....right........Like that pissant would know what a "Fair Election" was if one chomped down on his half inch prick! Sadly the limpdick jadrool believes his own rhetoric..............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:08 PM

The biggest violation of human rights in Cuba happens at Guatanimo Bay. Hard to blame Castro for that!

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Kent Davis
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:31 PM

Is there ever an event of any kind, anywhere in the world that, upon being mentioned on Mudcat, does not bring forth criticism of the United States?

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:37 PM

Yes. The Westminster. It's a dog show at Madison Square Gardens.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: bankley
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:44 PM

here's one.... the last time Fidel Castro was in Canada he was sitting right beside former US President Jimmy Carter at Pierre Trudeau's funeral at L'Eglise Notre Dame in Montreal...

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:52 PM

By the way, they HAVE elections in Cuba.

Here's a link about it:

Cuban elections in 1997

It's a radically different approach to ours in North America, and I frankly think that it is more likely to result in genuine democratic choices than ours is, because it is a process entirely free of lobbyists' money, media hype, and dirty campaign tricks, and it comes straight from the common people. The common people decide who runs in their riding, and they decide who wins when they cast their votes.

I think the Cuban election system is far better than ours is, and it costs very little to do it. You don't need to raise many millions of dollars to elect someone in Cuba. Every candidate gets a totally equal chance, because money is simply not a determining factor. The only determining factor is whether the public likes you and your ideas and your character better than they like the other candidates in that riding.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:57 PM

Actually the Westminster Kennel Club as well as the show itself are wholly American in their attitudes displaying the same damned "We're the Greatest and You Can Fuck Off" attitude known so well by our neighbors on the planet. The WKC follows the AKC in this and instead of standing up for the breed and it's world-wide history and influence they tag along with the American Kennel Club.

Here's an example near and dear to me.........Longhair Weimaraners are not recognized for conformation show competition in the United States although they can be registered and are eligible for agility, obedience, and field trial competition. But everywhere else in the world and they are recognized for all competition and even highly sought after in many places including Germany, the ancestral home of the breed (obviously). Longhairs developed right alongside their shorthair brethren but when they came to the U.S.A. they were verboten. The story is too long and too damn silly to tell, but once again, the United States sucks owl dicks!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 11:03 PM

Hmmm. Okay, cross the Westminster off the list, then.

I'm thinkin'. Boy, this is a tough one. Hmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 11:04 PM

Linoleum?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Kent Davis
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 11:15 PM

Thanks for trying, Little Hawk. You inspired me to start a separate thread of things that don't call forth criticism of the U.S. By the time I did, using your kind example, it had already been shot down.
But I appreciate the thought.

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:07 AM

OK, I've come up with the beginnings of a song...

Fidel- I's Me..

TTO: Why not take all of me....
   or Jealousy (actually a blend works well) :-)

:-P

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:13 AM

Fidel...ma belle...these are words that go together well...my Fidel...

Okay, the word "belle" is the wrong gender, but I still think it has possibilities. ;-)

Fidel means "one who is faithful".

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:14 AM

"The US will help the people of Cuba enjoy the blessings of Liberty."

G. W. Big-Foot-in-Mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:17 AM

From the thread list...

BS: Fidel retires         
BS: Not U.S.'s fault

Damn! and after all those years of trying too...

Subject: RE: BS: Fidel retires
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:20 AM

BTW - Cuba is currently having elections... see Little Hawk link of 19 Feb 08 - 10:52 above...