BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 06:21 AM

What I meant by that BWM is that I don't consider morality needs religion to work. However religion leads the way in terms of promoting morality.
Our family is not religious, but our beleifs in morality are very high.
I am quite happy to let people go about there own business (religion) as long as they don't pester me. If they want to promote morality whichever religion, then they get my support for that.

I understand where you are coming from BWM :-)

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 06:42 AM

If only there were some agreement about what constitutes "the morality laid down by the major religions". There's scarcely a practice, or a human relationship, whether loving or abusive, that hasn't been permitted if not compulsory for one or more of the major religions at some time in the last 2500 years. Religions don't teach a single morality; I suspect that "real" morality to most people means "what grandma used to tell us to do". They proclaim do as you would be done by, while practicing do unto others as you suspect they want to do to you, so do it first.

That's the trouble with "morality"- everybody thinks they know what they mean by it, and that it means the same for everyone else, and that "good" and "evil" are self- evident eternal truths.

Can we think of a single universal?

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 07:35 AM

Well we taught our children

To respect other people and be helpful
To be well mannered
Not to go round swearing even if they hear it all day at school

They do not hang around on street corners making a nuisance of themselves

Surely these things have nothing to do with religion. They are common sense, and to me is very much about trying to live peacefully with other people and respect them the same way as you would expect to be treated.

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 07:49 AM

Just a question from an interested party.... has anyone here read religious texts like the Koran, the Book of Mormon or Malleus Maleficarum?

I have no argument with anyone over religion, I mostly refuse to discuss it, but I'm interested to know if anyone has read the major text of a religion other than the one they follow?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 08:03 AM

I've read bits of the Koran (as boring as the Bible) and bits of the Book of Mormon. That's a right laugh, and severely tries one's attempts to have respect for the beliefs of others. I also used to read a lot about Buddhism when I was younger, especially Zen.


I've read the King James Bible (well the less boring bits) and likewise bits of the Book of Common Prayr- does that count as another religion's text for someone whose parents were Catholic?

My conclusion from all that is that people will go to the greatest lengths to avoid saying dunno.

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 08:09 AM

Yes, I've read large parts of Malleus Maleficarum but I'd hardly call it a major text of religion. It was written by two German inquisitors, Kramer and Sprenge, and really just reinforces their views on witchcraft. It was this and other similar texts that Reginal Scot ridiculed in his Discoverie of Witchcraft, although that is probably az better guide to the actual practices. If you want to know more, read E M Butler's Ritual Magic.

Er, what exactly was the point of the enquiry?

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 10:59 AM

"While there is constitutional separation of church and state in the US, but the UK has the Head of State as the Head of the Established Church, it seems interesting (to this outsider) that public discourse in the US invokes enormously more god-bothering than seems to be the case in the UK." - Rowan

The separation of church and state in the US had to be specifically mentioned to protect the integrity of the State and its founding principles. The Head of State in the US is the Head Executive a very "hands-on" role. In the US this extremely hands-on Head of state can change every 4 years. In the 1770's with the bulk of the colonists in what was to become the fledgling United States of America, there was an excellent understanding and appreciation of the need to keep church and State separate.

The UK on the other hand has had a "Constitutional Monarchy" for over 320 years. The Head of State is exactly that, a figurehead with little or no real power. The fact that the Head of State of the UK is also Head of the State Church (i.e. Church of England) comes from expediency as Henry VIII had to secure a male heir to the throne to ensure Tudor succession and the Head of the Roman Catholic Church would not grant him a divorce. Various laws were passed in England to prevent any Roman Catholic succeeding to the throne mainly because the Head of Sate would then be subject to the Pope and not subject to the will of Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: Wesley S
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 11:58 AM

I understand that the Queen has a veto power over bills coming out of Parliment. How difficult is it to override that veto?

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 12:47 PM

Wesley, the royal 'veto' was last exercised in 1707 or 1708 by Queen Anne with the Scottish Militia Bill 1708.

Sovereignty in the UK no longer rests with the monarch, since the English Bill of Rights in 1689, which established the principle of Parliamentary Soverignity.

Despite this the Monarch remains Head of State, akin to a President in European (but not American) political tradition, and could still act as a final check on executive power as she/he is considered free from party politics.

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: Wesley S
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 01:46 PM

Someone in my office - from Yorkshire - had said that the Queen had vetoed a bill a few years back. Something about treason - and it was later overturned.

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 02:37 PM

Treason Felony Act

'In 2003, The Guardian newspaper mounted an unsuccessful legal challenge to the Act in the House of Lords, alleging that the act "...makes it a criminal offence, punishable by life imprisonment, to advocate abolition of the monarchy in print, even by peaceful means..."[1] However in a unanimous judgement Lord Steyn decided that "the part of section 3 of the 1848 Act which appears to criminalise the advocacy of republicanism is a relic of a bygone age and does not fit into the fabric of our modern legal system. The idea that section 3 could survive scrutiny under the Human Rights Act is unreal." '

'Although the attorney general has won this appeal, we are delighted that the House of Lords' ruling unanimously vindicates the Guardian's position: that this anachronistic law is incompatible with the Human Rights Act and should be repealed by parliament

This judgment makes clear that advocating a republic can no longer be considered a treasonable act. The government should now scrap this law' - The Guardian 2003

.....only challenge to the law on treason I know of in recent years Wesley

For further interest read about The Sydney Twelve

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: Rowan
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 04:41 PM

Thanks Teribus, for the history, although I am reasonably familiar with both what you presented and what subsequent posters have added; the 1708 Scottish Militia Bill was new to me, however. As an aside, in Oz, we've retained much of the British notion of a constitutional monarchy, without an established church but with an elected Senate similar to that of the US.

I thought my real point of the US/UK comparison was relevant in a thread discussing the role of teaching in state schools and religion in public discourse; here 'tis again. Admittedly, I'm viewing both the US and the UK from south of the equator but our news services have progressed beyond the 'six months at sea" stage.

In the US (where religion -in the form of "Church") is formally separated from the State leaders are constantly avowing their adherence to beliefs in something they regard as Christianity. Or they're being pilloried for alleged failures in their beliefs.

In the UK (where the State has an Established "Church", with the Head of both is the same person, so one might expect most leaders to be constantly referencing religion in their public discourse) there seems to be precious little of such referencing.

I have some notions of 'possible reasons' but they're not really relevant to the central part of the thread, which is specifically dealing with events and attitudes in the UK.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 05:53 PM

The point of the enquiry was to ascertain whether people commenting on religion had actually read the teachings put down in various other texts.

And I know what the MM is, I just put that in because it's one we happen to have a copy of.. I could just as easily said 'The Golden Bough' or one of many other books of different religions and variations on religion that we have.

I notice though that we have no Bhuddist texts... perhaps I should rectify that next time I'm at the bookshop.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: Rowan
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 06:10 PM

Well, Liz, apart from the usual things you're exposed to when brought up in a god-fearing household (eg Dale Carnegie's "How to win friends and influence people" and Norman Vincent Peale's "The power of positive thinking") I've read the "Epic of Gilgamesh" and isolated bits (also in translation) of the "Talmud" and the "Koran" but, like you (I suspect) I 'got vaccinated' which meant later efforts at establishing religions (eg the "Book of Mormon" and anything by SciFi dorks) passed me by.

I did read the abridged version of "The Golden Bough" (the original's nine volumes was a bit much for me) but I preferred Robert Graves' take on Frazer's atheistic analysis of the origins of religion; I did get through "The White Goddess" (although the first half was like reading the first half of White's "Voss") and found Graves' comments about Rowan (and Liz, actually) most interesting.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 03:11 AM

Rowan - try to get hold of a copy of the Tyndale Bible - it's got rude notes about the Pope in the margins!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 03:19 AM

Rowan, iteresting you should mention The White Goddess - that's exactly what I was going to say. It's a difficult book but merits re-reading from time to time. Could be why my daughter's called Holly Rowena.

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 01:21 PM

Many people if faith don't read their own book. Although I would like to point out that The bible and such like books are just mine as anybody elses.

For an excellent read about religion and it's books you can't beat "The god delusion" by the mighty Dawkins. Well researched, well written, funny, to the point, worth re-reading. Buy one today.

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: Rowan
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 05:03 PM

Many people of faith don't read their own book.

Very true, Les, although I can plead otherwise in my case. It has led to some observations I find interesting.

When teaching at a Victorian (jurisdiction, not era) govt-run high school, I met many adolescents who, as you might expect, were very 'black and white' in their judgements and forceful with their expressions. The fundamentalists among them could tell, by the language (choice of vocabulary and construction) whether or not particular teachers were "Christian" (in their sense). If you didn't display those characteristics they regarded as Christian, it meant, in their terms, you must be ignorant. Being "good Christians" they usually felt obliged to bring "the good news" to us ignorant teachers.

Because I was teaching biology I was specifically targeted about the implications of Genesis; being Biblical, it was the only creation story they would accept. They were most surprised that I knew it better than they did (I was an "unbeliever" and thus "ignorant" after all) and were not a little confused about the influence of the Epic of Gilgamesh in the Genesis story. They were even more confused about why the equivalent passages in the Talmud should not be identical; the same passages in the Koran they (in those days, without much Muslim presence in that community) could dismiss with little thought.

As a state employee I was content to insist that they could believe what they liked but that the formal curriculum required them to understand the data, the logic of the chain of inferences and implications for investigation withing the discipline, but I also accepted that, outside the classroom and in the community they and I still had to respect each other and I, as a role model, had to support their social, intellectual and emotional growth. So we discussed the extramural aspects out of class. What really bothered them though, was my challenge to them that, as "Christians" they ought pay more attention to the fact that the "Old" testament/covenant, according to the rest of their beliefs, was replaced by the "New", implying that the opening passages of writings atttributed to the disciple John replace those in Genesis.

I guess there's a few millstones awaiting me in perdition. Away from the teaching context I have very little disagreement with Dawkins but it was immersion in traditional music, song, lore (full of memes that have metamorphosed over the last few millenia) that brought me to such a view.

The other general observation about the lack of familiarity with biblical texts is that many cultural references us oldies take for granted (because we got exposed to them early on) are now 'isolated' and, without context, are likely to lose meaning.

"The Damoclean sword" is uninterpretable and meaningless to someone ignorant of the story behind it. Perhaps that may yet be a good thing but, in these days of coming to terms with the effects of our behaviour on climate change I rather think there is some worth in the meme. Perhaps that's why the UK govt requires students to study religion.

Somehow I don't think so.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 05:07 AM

The essential problem for most "people of books" is that they don't read all their books and they pick and choose from within the books.

I feel sure we can construct a simple test for people who say their book has it all and that geology or evolution are wrong. Ask them the way to somewhere and offer them their book or a road map as a help.

But just to make things, clear most religious books do not describe the origins of the planet, life or much else. People who teach otherwise are telling lies to children. This is never going to be a good idea.

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 05:34 AM

Sorry but I find it very difficult to accept some of the things that are supposed to have happened in the name of God.

Mary was a Virgin and had a baby boy.
Jesus rose from the dead
He walked on water
5 loaves and 2 fishes amongst 5000

A bit like saying the martians landed last night.

As to the inapropriate behaviour of leaders of religion, it leaves a lot to be desired.

I will stick to my Morality without Religion thankyou. Teaching goodness and respect for one another does not need the inclusion of religion.

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 05:56 AM

Me too Villain. The interesting gang are those that have stoppod believing in the literal view of books but want the general "god is up there , does things and listens to me" view of life.

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 06:59 AM

Each to their own eh Les :-)

>>A bit like saying the martians landed last night.
<<

Made a mistake there

A bit like saying the martians landed last night or that Market Rasen is the centre of all earthquakes :-)

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: goatfell
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 07:37 AM

well I thought that Britian is a Christian country and will remain so until Government chages that veiw

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 01:27 PM

Sorry you two have lost me

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 02:35 PM

and me :-)

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 04:45 PM

I didn't know that they still taught Scripture in schools. If anyone went to QE Boys Barnet in the 1960s, they will remember Poker Pearce!!

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 06:45 PM

Go on, go, go on, go on,somebody must!

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: Emma B
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 06:53 PM

When I was in secondary school (more years ago than I care to confess) not only was RI - Religious INSTRUCTION compulsory but it was a necessary examination 'pass' if you wished to be considered for teacher training.

The teacher that took us for the examination year had his faith severely tested when I passed the exam! :)

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: Rowan
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 08:11 PM

Emma B's Uk experience thus contrasts with the Oz one, where the following two Sections of the Constitution are relevant.

116 Commonwealth not to legislate in respect of religion
The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.

109 Inconsistency of laws
When a law of a State is inconsistent with a law of the Commonwealth, the latter shall prevail, and the former shall, to the extent of the inconsistency, be invalid.

Apart from that, "God" gets only a passing reference in the preamble ("humbly relying on the blessing of Almighty God") and the "SO HELP ME GOD!" of the Oath of allegiance in the Schedule; nonbelievers can make an Affirmation.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 03:32 AM

We were given the full Catholic works, grace and hell fire, Mass and Benediction, carefully selected Bible stories and tales of saints. It was after hearing of the cruelties inflicted on the Forty English Martyrs that my older brother went out, full of holy zeal, and threw stones through the windows of the local Congregational church.

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 07:33 AM

Dangerous tales PMB, I bet the armed wing of the Congregationalists, known locally as the Congos are still looking for your brother.

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 04:34 AM

Which just goes to prove the point I made in my very first post to this thread, that the only way we can learn to live with people of other religions, is to learn about that religion.

Or we could turn into Ned Flanders - who "tried to obey all the rules, even the ones that contradict each other" and "kept kosher just to be on the safe side"....

There's a book out in the UK at the moment called 'The Year of living Biblically' where the author sets out to live his life as close as possible to the teachings of the Bible. Read a bit here...
I suspect I will end up buying it, because what I read in the bookshop was fascinating.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: teaching religion in secondary school UK
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:25 AM

Liz, Liz sing us a song or play us a tune instead. These men give bad advice

Cheers

Les - off to fit a carpet