BS: US in Kosovo

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 10:35 AM

I will just conclude with the observation that Noel Malcolm seems to leave one with the impression that he thinks "ethnic cleansing" is the worst thing that can happen.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 09:42 PM

Okay - I am in possession of Noel Malcom's book "Kosovo: A Short History." I got a used copy through Amazon for 12 bucks, but when it got here, it didn't look used at all.
                I didn't check sources, but the scholarship looks to be impeccable. There is a glossary and 43 pages of references.
                This volume has a preface that is dated later than the date of original publication, so this must be a more recent edition.

                The first thing I did was to turn to the later chapters, chapters that bear on the issues that have been discussed in this thread. Then I went back to the front and started reading the book in its entirety. I don't have a lot of time to read right now, so I'm only about 1/4 to 1/3 of the way through.

                The way the problems play out as they relate to the discussion put forward by various posters to this point, I would say much of it depends on one's point of view. To date, I've come away with an understanding--rightly or wrongly--that the provence of Kosovo has been a kind of "political football" that has been kicked back and forth between Serbia and Albania for a very long time.

                Shimrod and others were right to point out that there are no easy solutions here, but to try to make the case that one side or the other is totally right, or totally wrong, I think would be very hard to do.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 12:55 PM

Shimrod - No, I don't need to have the last word. I kind of suspect we arguing different things here. But in the interest of returning the conversation back to level of civil discourse, I'll look up the Malcomb book and review it.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 12:19 PM

"Shimrod - You seem to be eager to take sides in this conflict. I think it makes a lot more sense to take a broder view of the issues. That seems to be where we differ."

No, we differ because you (and pdq) have got your facts wrong! More accurately you are too idle and prejudiced to check your facts in the first place!

One of the few 'facts' that you have got right, in this entire discussion, is that you have 'discovered' that the Kosovo Liberation Army exists (ooh, I bet your poor mouse-hand really aches from all that Wikkipedia-ing). Frankly, I find the existence of such organisations to be very problematical, but they usually evolve in response to intolerable external pressures - in this case the extreme prejudices of the Serbs.

Are you determined to get the last word (however fatuous and ill-informed that might be) or are you going to go away and do that homework?

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 12:15 PM

Good point!

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: pdq
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 12:10 PM

Just because Oprah Winfrey doesn't talk about it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 12:05 PM

pdq - It's amazing to me that so many people are unable to see what's going on there. I think you've got it exactly right. I think it just takes a little more vision...

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: pdq
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 11:55 AM

If it was not clear, I will repeat. The (ethnic) Albanians will soon take a portion of Macedonia and add it, as well as Kosovo, to their existing state called Albania.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 11:41 AM

pdq, please tell us when Albania annexed Kosovo. That is missing from the news media.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: pdq
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 11:16 AM

"In 2001, Macedonia was gripped by fighting that pitted the country's ethnic Albanians —who make up a quarter of Macedonia's 2 million population and live mostly in the northwestern Tetovo region —against government troops.

The fighting ended in a Western brokered peace deal that upgraded ethnic Albanian rights, including the right to university education in the Albanian language."

Source:
Baku Sun"


Albania will annex the Tetovo region as soon as it can, just like it annexed Kosovo. This is rather the "manifest destiny" of the ethnic Albanians. Eventually, the fences will be built and borders declared, formalising this conquest and making it permanent .   (no Tetovar flag yet, eh?)

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 10:43 AM

Yes, Kosovo now has a flag. It is very new.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 10:35 AM

Shimrod - You seem to be eager to take sides in this conflict. I think it makes a lot more sense to take a broder view of the issues. That seems to be where we differ.

                I found this on Wikkipedia. Maybe they're wrong. If they are, you might want to correct them.

    "The Kosovo Liberation Army or KLA (Albanian: Ushtria Çlirimtare e Kosovës or UÇK) was an Albanian paramilitary guerrilla organization which sought independence for the province of Kosovo from Yugoslavia and Serbia in the late 1990s."

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 10:09 AM

No, I don't think that we should "drop Kosovo"! And I don't think that you, Riginslinger, should be allowed to get away with demonising an entire population of people that it is patently obvious that you know nothing about.

You have arbitrarily decided that, on the basis of extremely limited knowledge and a small stock of 'opinions' (mainly rank prejudices) that the Albanian population of Kosovo are to be held responsible for some of the greatest dangers which face the human race because they are:

(i) 'Illegal immigrants' (absolutely and categorically WRONG).

(ii) Muslim (so what?)

You also seem, by implication, to condemn them because they are poor and have a high birthrate (got any evidence for that, by the way?).

What you have ignored, probably because it doesn't with your prejudices, is that they have recently been subjected to a vicious, genocidal assault by their neighbours, the Serbs.

Blaming the poor, the dispossessed and the victims of persecution (or Muslims, for that matter) for the ills of the world does nothing for social justice or the environment.

Now go away and do what several people on this thread have suggested you do - some f**king HOMEWORK!!

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 09:55 AM

Artbrooks,

Kosovo does have a flag!http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Kosovo.svg

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 07:09 AM

The level of sheer, boneheaded, wilful ignorance displayed in this thread is astounding. Do you never go and try to research things a bit, rather than just waving your porejudices around?

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 07:07 AM

Okay, I don't think the fact support that position, but let's agree on everything else and drop Kosovo.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 04:38 AM

I care PASSIONATELY about those things - but the situation in Kosovo has very little, if any, connection! That's like telling me, during a discussion on motor cars, that I obviously have no interest in cream cakes! What planet are you on, Riginslinger?

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 02:31 PM

Shimrod - If you think runaway population growth and the continued degradation of the planet is a good idea, I can see that there's not much hope in changing your mind. Obviously that's your opinion and you're sticking to it.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 02:16 PM

F**ck off, Friginsliger and go and do some research before shouting your mouth off! Your ignorant posts are beneath contempt and don't deserve anything better.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 12:47 PM

The contemporary way to get somebody with whom you disagree to shut up is to call them "racist." It works most of the time because nobody wants that label. Usually, the accusation is unfounded, like it is in this case. Thankfully, it's beginning not to work anymore. People are becoming wise to these tactics.
                   In any event, as long as there are mental midgets out there who continue to hide in dark corners and ambush forward thinking individuals with pointless name-calling, it's going to be hard to solve many of the world's most pressing problems.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 12:10 PM

"Lepus - Your're obviously too busy to deal with reality!"

But at least Lepus isn't a "clueless, racist knob" like you, Friginsliger.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: pdq
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 10:48 AM

Lupus Wrecks,

"Russia was an Orthodox Christian country at one time. So were Serbia and Albania"

"Serbia " was a typo. Should have been "Bosnia" as it was correctly stated in the next line.

You said: "Albania was never majority Orthodox...it was majority Catholic for centuries"

Can you support that statement, especially the never part?

I will get back on the Thailand issue.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 10:07 AM

Lepus - Your're obviously too busy to deal with reality!

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 11:58 PM

Being a busy motherfucker, I havent had time to wade into this, yet, but I've been following the thread off and on, and have a few comments and questions:

pdq: ""Russia was an Orthodox Christian country at one time. So were Serbia and Albania...The last thing Russia wants is for Kosovo to fall to the relentless march of Islam. Bosnia, Albania, now Kosovo."

Setting aside your whole asinine "march of Islam" thing, here's where you got it wrong, there: Russia and Serbia both remain majority Orthodox. Massively so. Bosniaks are a plurality (48%) in Bosnia and Herzegovina, not a majority. Albania was never majority Orthodox: It's always had an Orthodox minority, but it was majority Catholic for centuries, and later, under Ottoman influence/pressure, majority Muslim.

pdq: "On another front, Thailand fell recently."

Seriously? To "the Muslims"? You sure about that shit?

pdq: ""Neither Russia nor China is happy about losing their buffer zones between themselves and Islam. Each step brings the other two superpowers (there are three of us) closer to a full scale war with Islam. When it happen, and it will, it will be ugly."

Neither Russia nor China has had a "buffer zone" beween themselves and Islam for, well, as long as there's been a "Russia," and as long as there's been Muslims in China. Which, if you bothered to check, has been quite some time. Both Russia and China colonised "Islamic" lands. And so both have sizable indiginous Muslim ethnic minorities, as wells as, in the case of China, millions of descendants of Han converts and sinicised foreign Muslims. Where was this "buffer zone" you imagine existed, exactly?

Riginslinger: "Does Noel Malcolm explain why, when the announcement was made that Kosovo was delcaring its independence from Serbia, the local population in Kosovo was running about waving the Albanian flag?"

And why wouldn't they? Yes, it's the flag of Albania, but, as it's also the flag of Gjergj Kastrioti (Skanderbeg), it's a symbol of Albanians as a people. Much like red/blue/white flags for Slavs, or genital herpes for Canadians. Kosovar Albanians, for the most part, have abosultely no interest in merging with Albania. Seriously, look it up. Yourself. I don't like you enough to bother with a link.

artbrooks: "Kosovo has no flag."

Uh, yeah, it does, actually. Ugly as fuck, but it's a flag, alright.

I'm not even going to go into the rest of Riginslinger's copious stream of bullshit, as Shimrod and others have already pretty much destroyed him/her. But here's a hint, Riginslinger: Next time you show up for an argument, actually do some fucking research on the subject beforehand. If you're lucky, you won't come off as such a clueless, racist knob that way.

_____________________________________________________

Anyways, enough of that. I, for one, am fucking thrilled that Kosova has declared its independence. As Kent Davis wrote earlier, "self determination is a beautiful thing." All peoples deserve to live in the country of their choosing, whether they're Kurds, Basques, Chechens, Acehnese, Karen, or yes, even the Serb majority in the northern border regions of Kosova. Or, at the very least, have guaranteed regional autonomy in the regions where they constitute a majority. Whether this is convenient for the ruling ethnic group or not is irrelevant. These are basic human rights, here. In the case of the Albanians of Kosova, staying part of a nation that only a few years before attempted to "ethnically cleanse" them, even with their autonomy restored, simply wasn't an option. What would have stopped another Miloševiæ, backed by Russia, from taking it away again?

And I don't really care why America/NATO, intervened in Kosova when Miloševiæ whipped up his racist hordes against the Kosovar Albanians. I certainly don't agree with the ham-handed way the intervention was carried out, but an intervention was necessary nonetheless. Without it, ethnic cleansing would have become genocide. And all you "I'd burn the embassy, too" types would be blaming the carnage on "Clinton," or "the Democrats," or maybe "Bush" or the "Republicans." As if your personal political grudges have anything to do with human fucking rights.

So, yeah, like, yay an' shit, Kosova! :)

---Will

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 08:58 PM

That's an interesting observation, Art. I wonder if that's the reason the illegal aliens wave Mexican flags when they demonstrate in Los Angeles, because Aztlan has no flag?

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 09:28 AM

Kosovo has no flag.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 05:20 AM

Because ultra-nationalists are present on both the Serbian and Albanian sides and they feed off each other - evil begets evil!

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 07:18 PM

Does Noel Malcolm explain why, when the announcement was made that Kosovo was delcaring its independence from Serbia, the local population in Kosovo was running about waving the Albanian flag?

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 06:53 PM

Congratulations, 'pdq' on cut-and-pasting a history of Albania - but NOT Kosovo.

How many more times! The Albanian speaking population of Kosovo are from Kosovo - NOT Albania!!

Read Noel Malcolm's 'A Short History of Kosovo' and then come back and discuss this subject.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: pdq
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 04:23 PM

"THE ALBANIAN PEOPLE have hacked their way through history, sword in hand," proclaims the preamble to Albania's 1976 Stalinist constitution. These words were penned by the most dominant figure in Albania's modern history, the Orwellian postwar despot, Enver Hoxha. The fact that Hoxha enshrined them in Albania's supreme law is indicative of how he--like his mentor, the Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin--exploited his people's collective memory to enhance the might of the communist system, which he manipulated for over four decades. Supported by a group of sycophantic intellectuals, Hoxha repeateded transformed friends into hated foes in his determination to shape events. Similarly, he rewrote Albania's history so national heroes were recast, sometimes overnight, as villains. Hoxha appealed to the Albanians' xenophobia and their defensive nationalism to parry criticism and threats to communist central control and his regime and justify its brutal, arbitrary rule and economic and social folly. Only Hoxha's death, the timely downfall of communism in Eastern Europe at the end of the 1980s, and the collapse of the nation's economy were enough to break his spell and propel Albania fitfully toward change.

The Albanians are probably an ethnic outcropping of the Illyrians, an ancient Balkan people who intermingled and made war with the Greeks, Thracians, and Macedonians before succumbing to Roman rule around the time of Christ. Eastern and Western powers, secular and religious, battled for centuries after the fall of Rome to control the lands that constitute modern-day Albania. All the Illyrian tribes except the Albanians disappeared during the Dark Ages under the waves of migrating barbarians. A forbidding mountain homeland and resilient tribal society enabled the Albanians to survive into modern times with their identity their Indo-European language intact.

In the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries, the Ottoman Turks swept into the western Balkans. After a quixotic defense mountedby the Albanians' greatest hero, Skanderbeg, the Albanians succumbed to the Turkish sultan's forces. During five centuries of Ottoman rule, about two-thirds of the Albanian population, including its most powerful feudal landowners, converted to Islam. Many Albanians won fame and fortune as soldiers, administrators, and merchants in far-flung parts of the empire. As the centuries passed, however, Ottoman rulers lost the capacity to command the loyalty of local pashas, who governed districts on the empire's fringes. Soon pressures created by emerging national movements among the empire's farrago of peoples threatened to shatter the empire itself. The Ottoman rulers of the nineteenth century struggled in vain to shore up central authority, introducing reforms aimed at harnessing unruly pashas and checking the spread of nationalist ideas.

Albanian nationalism stirred for the first time in the late nineteenth century when it appeared that Serbia, Montenegro, Bulgaria, and Greece would snatch up the Ottoman Empire's Albanian-populated lands. In 1878 Albanian leaders organized the Prizren League, which pressed for autonomy within the empire. After decades of unrest and the Ottoman Empire's defeat in the First Balkan War in 1912-13, Albanian leaders declared Albania an independent state, and Europe's Great Powers carved out an independent Albania after the Second Balkan War of 1913.

With the complete collapse of the Ottoman and Austro-Hungarian empires after World War I, the Albanians looked to Italy for protection against predators. After 1925, however, Mussolini sought to dominate Albania. In 1928 Albania became a kingdom under Zog I, the conservative Muslim clan chief and former prime minister, but Zog failed to stave off Italian ascendancy in Albanian internal affairs. In 1939 Mussolini's troops occupied Albania, overthrew Zog, and annexed the country. Albanian communists and nationalists fought each other as well as the occupying Italian and German forces during World War II, and with Yugoslav and Allied assistance the communists triumphed.

After the war, communist strongmen Enver Hoxha and Mehmet Shehu eliminated their rivals inside the communist party and liquidated anticommunist opposition. Concentrating primarily on maintaining their grip on power, they reorganized the country's economy along strict Stalinist lines, turning first to Yugoslavia, then to the Soviet Union, and later to China for support. In pursuit of their goals, the communists repressed the Albanian people, subjecting them to isolation, propaganda, and brutal police measures. When China opened up to the West in the 1970s, Albania's rulers turned away from Beijing and implemented a policy of strict autarky, or self-sufficiency, that brought their nation economic ruin."

Data as of April 1992

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 03:01 PM

Brittanica:



    The Albanian population has been increasing four to five times faster than the average annual rate in other European countries. Nearly all of the growth has been due to natural increase rather than migration. The birth rate has consistently been the highest in Europe since the end of World War II, while the death rate has been one of the continent's lowest. Albania's population, consequently, is the youngest in Europe, with more than one-third of the total under 15 years of age.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 02:55 PM

There was a lot of supporting evidence from Brittanica and other sources, but it was dated back to the 1980s and 1990s. I don't think much has changed, but used this source because it was newer. I suppose you're right, though, I should have used one of the older sources.
          On the other hand, it was the 1990's when the US decided to involve itself for reasons that I don't think had a lot to do with concern for the folks living there.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 02:45 PM

I'm not at all sure about quoting a blog, even one from someone who describes himself as "politically and socially conservative, and a devout Christian", as a data source.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 02:30 PM

This appeared in "Western World Politics" in 2005.

    However, as time progressed, ethnic Albanians from neighbouring Albania began immigrating en masse to the Serb province of Kosovo. This mass immigration combined with the huge Albanian birth rate, saw the ethnic Albanian population of Kosovo quadruple in less than half a century!


    If it reminds you of Mexicans in California, I think you're on to something.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 12:37 PM

Riginsliger,

Are you being deliberately obtuse or hasn't the real point of this debate sunk in yet?

Statements that you have made, like the following:

"It's only a good example in so far as the US involvement is concerned, and maybe a decade or so leading up to it. Other countries around Albania have been forced to take their overflow of people, Serbia just acted more forcefully than Macadonia and some of the others did."

Lead me to suspect that you think that the Kosovars are Albanians from Albania - they are NOT! They are Albanian speaking NATIVES of Kosovo and have a perfect right to be there. Macedonia also has indigenous people who speak Albanian - and they have a right to be there too.

I'm not terribly sure, from your various pronouncements, what your views on Kosovo are - but you appear to have various beefs against over-population and 'illegal immigrants' - neither are relevant in the case of Kosovo.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 10:34 AM

Kent - Is there any chance you're trying to work out all of the worlds problems from only one side of the equation?

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: Kent Davis
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 11:13 PM

The Kosovars certainly seem glad that the U.S. has extended a helping hand, as has the U.K., and as have many other nations.

Self-determination is a beautiful thing. It's so much better than imperialism, don't you think?

France intervened to help the 13 colonies gain self-determination. We returned the favor in 1917 and again in 1941. The U.S. and the U.K. worked together for that end, just as they did in delivering South Korea and Kuwait. Now we've helped yet another people escape subjection. All foes of imperialism should rejoice!

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 10:25 PM

That's called sarcasm, MM.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: Goose Gander
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 10:12 PM

"Let's limit all families to 1 1/2 children and institute involuntary sterilization if necessary. After all, it worked so well for the Chinese..."

Yes, it worked beautifully. Except for all the dead little girls and the millions of young men who will never have wives because of the population imbalance.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 09:09 PM

I don't think it's possible to be obsessed with over population. The most paranoid individual on the subject is probably the most rational in the end.

                   I think it's possible to appear to be obsessed, but only by folks who haven't taken the time to think the situation through.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 05:34 PM

Riginslinger - you're talking to a person who, only last night, was accused of being "obsessed with over-population"!

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 04:47 PM

"After all, it worked so well for the Chinese..."

                Depending on your point of view. It certainly put them in the driver's seat as far as emerging economies go.


    "I agree with you that over-population is a key problem in many parts of the world - but not in the Balkans."

                Actually, if you throw in human migration, overpopulation is a key problem any place on the planet. If you want to consider global warming, you might even have to include Greenland.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 02:01 PM

Riginslinger,

Have you actually been to the Balkans?

I really don't think that you can call it over-populated. I agree with you that over-population is a key problem in many parts of the world - but not in the Balkans. The claims of Serb nationalists that the INDIGENOUS Albanian population is 'out-breeding' them appears to contain more than a hint of racism to me.

The INDIGENOUS Albanian population in Kosovo has just as much right to be there as the Serbs. The comparison with the US and Mexico is completely spurious and irrelevant. Fascistic, ultra-nationalism has had a disastrous history in the Balkans, and the whole of the Eastern Mediterranean region - and many, many thousands of people have died horrible, lingering deaths because of it. In my opinion 'The West' could have done a lot more to squash the re-emergence of such nationalism in the early 1990s (instead they appeased it - what's new?).

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 01:38 PM

I took a vacation last month. A number of the people along were US citizens of Irish descent, all of whom seemed to have 8 or 10 children or siblings. Let's limit all families to 1 1/2 children and institute involuntary sterilization if necessary. After all, it worked so well for the Chinese...

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 01:30 PM

At the end of the day, runaway human population growth has to be the greater threat. If it goes too far, the locust effect begins to take hold and we see family planning by machete like we witnessed in Rwanda.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 12:33 PM

You all seem to have forgotten the Bosnian war, which preceded the Kosovo intervention, and probably made it inevitable. After the secession of Slovenia, which was peaceful, racist Serbian nationalists were determined to punish further attempts to break away. This resulted in a nasty war with Croatian nationalists, which the Serbs lost, and the Bosnians, which the Serbs were winning- with well publicised atrocities- until Europe and the US intervened. This was probably the right thing to do; you can't let genocide succeed.

But the tactical decision to concentrate on bombing was probably a mistake, though understandable since it's not at all certain that the public would have accepted the casualties inevitable in a physical occupation. Remember that Yugoslavia had organised its entire defence strategy around guerilla warfare, and that every male was trained in the techniques; this explains much of the sheer nastiness of the civil war. But the bombing, particularly of the Danube bridges and the TV station, was an own goal in terms of winning over the non- extremist Serbs, who were forced into the racist camp.

Since its defeat in Bosnia, Serbia has been sulking like a wounded pit-bull terrier. The Kosovar rebellion was partly thickheaded nationalist, buit also partly deliberately provoked by Serbs who wanted to take out their frustration on the one minority they had left.

The situation is further complicated by the mis- selling by the neocons of a broken model of capitalism to the Russians after the fall of the Soviet Union. The result of mass impoverishment and the rise of a mafiocracy based on looted State property fed boneheaded nationalism there too- added to by the humiliation of seeing former client states like Poland, Latvia, and Estonia treated more favourably by the Americans and Europeans, even when (as in Estonia) they implemented discriminatory policies against ethnic Russians. So the Serbian situatuion is an ideal opportunity for them to infect the nationalist sores in central Europe.

America, and much more so Europe, have failed badly in failure to be consistent, to reward social behaviour and punish antisocial behaviour, and to prove that their commitment to democracy and human rights is real. It's not at all clear where to go from here, and starting from somewhere else would have been the better option.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 10:17 AM

Kent - I condemned the US for involving itself in other countries where it had no interests.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: Kent Davis
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:45 PM

Riginslinger,

I thought you condemned the U.S. when it intervened in other countries to further its own interests. Don't you?

Yet you condemn the U.S. for intervening in Kosovo on the opposite grounds, on the grounds that it has no interest in Kosovo.

Logically, wouldn't that mean that you oppose all U.S. interventions?

If that's what you mean, say it. Go ahead and condemn the interventions of 1917 and 1941 too. If you don't condemn those interventions, on what grounds do you condemn the others?

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:14 PM

It's only a good example in so far as the US involvement is concerned, and maybe a decade or so leading up to it. Other countries around Albania have been forced to take their overflow of people, Serbia just acted more forcefully than Macadonia and some of the others did.

                While we're on the subject, however, have you ever looked into the Sierra Club. They have an ongoing conversation to warn the world about human population growth, but when they are asked about runaway immigration into North America, they refuse to take a position. It's amazing to me. Either they care about the environment or they don't. One would have to assume that they don't.

Subject: RE: BS: US in Kosovo
From: pdq
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 09:21 PM

True.

I was agreeing with Riginslinger 'in general', but trying to point out that Kosovo is not a good example.