BS: Voting for Hillary?

Subject: BS: Voting for Hilary?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 09:10 PM

For the life of me, I can't recall one single person in this forum saying they were going for Clinton.

Surely there must be at least one or two?

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hilary?
From: pdq
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 09:30 PM

My dog is going for The Hillary, but he does have a bladder problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hilary?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 09:32 PM

I would happily vote for Hillary, but I'm registered Green, so they won't let me.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hilary?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 09:33 PM

I have said several times I would not be unhappy with her...as it happens, I am about 52-48 in favor of Obama....but when I went to the voting place, I had not decided till the last minute.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hilary?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 09:38 PM

I'll vote for her if she divorces Bill. I like her, but can't abide him. She was de facto Vice President during his eight years, and he'd be the same during her term if she were elected. I've had enough of him.

I'm not a misogynist. I'm more than ready for a female US president, just not for Hillary to be the one. If Madeleine Albright weren't constitutionally unable to run (she was been born in Czechoslavakia and immigrated as a child), I'd vote for her in a second.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hilary?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 10:04 PM

A much better choice than that empty suit who has mastered the oratorical feat of spellbinding the people while saying nothing.

But in our divided country, McCain probably will be the next president.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hilary?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 10:04 PM

Gigi-

It's unclear to me whom you're referring to. Who is "Hilary"?

When in danger or in doubt,
Run in circles,
Scream and shout!

Cheerily,
Chraley noble

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hilary?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 10:11 PM

Pretty much my whole family supports her, but none of them went to caucus on Feb 5. Except my husband, who caucused for Edwards, even though he had dropped out.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hilary?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 10:31 PM

But if your family would have been college students, and would have been able to skip English Comp. in order to go, they'd have probably all been there.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hilary?
From: Greg B
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 10:40 PM

As a candidate, Ms. Rodham-Clinton has the Clinton baggage--- her
elect-ability is interfered with by her Clinton-ism.

But---- I thought Monica Lewinski was de facto "vice" President
in that administration. Only difference between her and the present
VP is that she was the recipient of the shot-in-the-face.

One of Obama's strengths is, oddly enough, his ABSENCE of a record.
There is much less to attack him on.

I don't think it's clear that McCain will be the 'uniter.' Especially
in the presence of a charismatic character like Obama.

John McCain wouldn't be the worst of disasters--- I don't agree with
him on the exit strategy for the war, but it seems to me that Clinton
does, and doesn't care to admit it.

What he brings, which Dubya lacks, is judgement (vs. ego). He's
earned his stripes--- as a pilot and as a POW. He's not going to
panic; he'll be a steady grandfather who's seen it all.

To me the key moment was when, right after 9/11, he was guest on
the 'Tonight' show with Crosby, Stills, and Nash. CSN got up and
sang 'Daylight Again' then joined McCain on the couch. Serious
discussion ensued. Finally David Crosby said 'You know, while you
were over serving your country in the Hanoi Hilton, we were over
here serving our country by trying to get you home.' McCain sort
of choked up and said, very quietly, "Thank you."

So an Obama vs. McCain race strikes me as sort of a win-win. I don't
intend to vote for McCain, but I won't panic if he wins.

I do think that an Obama/Edwards ticket would combine the pizazz
and mass appeal of Obama with the moderating influence, wisdom,
and experience of Edwards (like Cheney but not evil) that would
be an incredible leadership team.

I'm at a loss for who McCain should pick, though I fear it might
be Condie Rice, who's a wolf in sheep's clothing if ever I've seen
one.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hilary?
From: pdq
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 10:46 PM

Nice post, Greg B.

I love Crosby, Stills & Nash, but will be voting for McCain. For sure.

You are correct about his choice of a running mate. It is the most important choice to be made in this entire presidential contest.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hilary?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 11:27 PM

I voted for Hillary. I haven't always trusted her husband - but when Hillary speaks, she makes sense. Some may think she has betrayed the liberals, but I think of her as a sensible liberal. If she's given half a chance, her agenda may work, and we may accomplish something more than rhetoric for a change.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 11:29 PM

never in a million years. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 11:30 PM

I think she's the country's best hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 11:40 PM

...for what, exactly?

I actually think she should be in the government advisory circle.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 12:36 AM

On the News Hour tonight they spoke with several journalists from Texas, including Bob Ray Sanders from the Star-Telegram in Fort Worth. He pointed out that since so many republicans figure McCain is assured the nomination that they're crossing lines (you can in Texas primaries) and voting for Obama to prevent Hillary from getting the nomination. It's a stinky thing to do, but legal. I threatened to do it when Bush was running, but there weren't enough of us that it would have made a difference.

So, despite the intent of the Democrats who want Hillary in office, the guile of the native Republicans may defeat that wish.

SRS (who did go to early voting and did vote for Hillary)

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 12:40 AM

She is one strong lady.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 02:17 AM

I'm with Joe O, so's my family of 4. Joe have you been talking with my kids again? Joe have you been talking with my wife again? Speak up Joe, are you talking to me?
Hey Joe see you the end of August or early Sept, unless you're aout of town.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 07:46 AM

I'll likely vote for Nader now that he is in, unless something better comes along. If I vote at all for president. I am ambivalent about this year's election, and not thrilled about any of the candidates, as usual.

My partner is leaning Nader, but undecided still.

Daughter will soon be home from NC for spring break. She had been for Edwards, went to SC the night of the primary to check out the Obamamania, and was underwhelmed by it. Don't know who she will vote for--if she has her act together well enough to remember to get her absentee ballot.

I think the lesser of two evils between Obama and Clinton is probably Clinton, but not by much. I dislike both of them--I see them both as Republicans in Democrat clothes. And Obama, an empty suit of clothes at that. Just what stellar accomplishments has he achieved again?

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 08:44 AM

"many republicans figure McCain is assured the nomination that they're crossing lines (you can in Texas primaries) and voting for Obama to prevent Hillary from getting the nomination."


                     Probably because they realize they can easily beat Obama in the general election.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 08:55 AM

Bingo, Riginslinger. The reason why the anti-Hilary rhetoric is so intense on the Republican side is because her husband has been the only Dem they couldn't defeat since god left for Chicago.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 09:06 AM

And that's why I can't figure out the Dem party to save my life. They keep voting for the guy that makes them feel good, instead of the candidate who can win. They keep doing that because of the grip of the corporate wing on the party, of course, who locked the progressives out of the party in the Reagan era, and hasn't let us back in since.

And then blamed progressives for 'losing' the White House to Bush/Cheney when they refused to vote for the corporate candidates shoved down their throats.

Not a winning strategy, but at least it gives them the perks of being corporate politicians, eh?

But I'm hoping a rebellion is setting in. We do seem to be on threshold of a huge anti-Republican wave. Here in Minnesota it happened when the MN Congress was able to override the Republican 'No New Taxes' governor's veto on the first transportation legislation in over 20 years to raise the gas tax. Now, the reason why they were able to do that in a Congress where the House isn't able to easily override a veto, is undoubtedly the sentiment afoot after the 35W bridge collapse. But people are actually fed up with the crumbling infrastructure & Republican unwillingness to take care of the state's business.

The Republican party's response was to fire the six Republican legislators who voted against the governor--who is co-chair of the McCain campaign, and is being touted as a finalist in McCain's VP list.

So, I think Americans are tiring of the 'no new taxes' crap, especially when they see no benefits themselves from the Republican tax cuts for the wealthy in recent years. Everybody sees their world falling apart when it comes to infrastructure. To cost of higher education for their kids, for health care, and sees we keep falling further and further behind in K12 education compared to the rest of the 1st world.

And the deficits. Oh man, what a health and environmental hangover from buying cheap Chinese shit nobody needs at Walmart prices is coming.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 10:08 AM

GG - I've come to suspect it's the caucus system.
Iowa spun out two wing-nuts, one for the Republicans and one for the Dems. The Reps. managed to sideline their wing-nut, but not without losing Romney. The Dems seem destined to stick themselves with their's, just like then did with Kerry in 2004.

                  When you look at the results of later caucuses, the pattern becomes more obvious. It wounds the Dems. worse than it wounds the Reps.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 10:19 AM

Jaded, cynical, and fundamentally apathetic and bitter.

The ground truth is people are backing Obama because he has the energy they believe is necessary to shape the nation uip for the future, and the will to face up to the fact that fundamental changes are needed. Barack Obama is not a wing-nut, Rig, no matter how biliously yoou say it. He's a smart and capable human being. We need smart and capable human beings leading our government; putting a stupid and incompetent one in charge obviosuly does not work, as demosntrated between 2000 and 2008.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 10:30 AM

I guess my point is, when the opposition puts up a candidate who is unelectable, people will vote for "stupid" because they feel like that' their only option.

                   I don't think Kerry was stupid, though I'd certainly agree with you on GWB. I don't think Obama is stupid at all. I just think he has electability issues that are going to be hard to overcome.

                   I do think Huckabee is a wing-nut, and the sooner he's off the stage the better off everybody will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 12:08 PM

What electability issues?

I promise you, the November votes will demonstrate his "electability" is not a problem.

Guest -- posts get deleted when they are posted anonymously. Ther eis one guest here you regularly posts as "Guest, Guest", whom we call Gigi. If that is you, then use your full name (Guest Guest) and your posts will probably stop disappearing, unless you go off your meds.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 12:12 PM

I flatly don't believe that...unless your posts had other things in them, such as personal attacks....next time you post one, save a copy and send it to ME...oh, I forgot...you can't be bothered with the perks which would allow you to be a real part of the system.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 12:31 PM

"What electability issues?"


               I think he smoked the south in the primaries because he's seen as black. I think he'll lose the south in the general election because he's seen as black.

               I think he'll lose in the general in Texas and a lot of rural and midwest states because he's seen as Muslim. That leaves him the northeast and the far west to carry the country.

               I don't think he can do it. Of course a lot depends on what happens with the economy between now and the election. If it gets so bad anyone from the opposing party could win, he might pull it off.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 12:53 PM

I don't see Obama's being black as an issue, except in small, backward pockets of the south, and a few tiny enclaves, such as those in northern Idaho and eastern Oregon. And about the same number of people, probably even the same people, would not vote for Hillary because she's a woman. It's a wash.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 01:04 PM

Big parts of the world don't see Obama as being black, that's the irony of all of this as we discuss it here. He is mixed-race, he grew up in a place and manner not typical of the experience of many African Americans with slave ancestors. Look at some of the commentary out of Africa. Interesting. They see a race between a man and a woman who are pretty evenly situated race-wise.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 01:24 PM

SRS - I certainly agree that the way Americans see race doesn't make a lot of sense, but the people who seem to be more worldly about it don't vote here.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 02:04 PM

ANyone who sees him as a Muslim is walking in a troubled sleep, Rig.

I am not saying your prediction could not come true, but how does that reflect on the quality of the voters?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 02:42 PM

Amos - It reflects on the quality of education in America. There seem to be great hordes of people out there who have not been instructed in the process of ingesting and assessing information. When they grow up, they become voters.

                         I'm not saying I like it; I'm just saying that's the way it seems to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 03:12 PM

It's all guesswork anyway. Even if the public opinion polls seem to suggest answers, people don't necessarily tell the truth about those kind of issues.

Speculating about whether more people are going to be swayed by Obama's colour of by Clinton's sex, and deciding whom to back on that basis, is a bit futile. Better to make the judgement on the basis of which one of them would make a better president, or whom you would prefer to see elected. (Not necessarily the same thing.)

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 04:44 PM

A lot of the Southeast seems to be leaning towards McCain. With scads of inlaws in Georgia, I keep getting those emails about Obama's Muslim identity. Many also object to Hillary because of Bill's little lapse, not so much because of her record.
Race, unfortunately, is still a big but unadmitted factor.
I think Hillary would have a chance against McCain- but in a contest with McCain, I see Obama fizzling like a punctured balloon.

Canadians can't help but take sides, the U. S. is the elephant that determines much of what happens to the Canadian mouse. Also, with cable, TV in the cities is mostly U. S., at least here in Alberta. CNN rules, as the English would say.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 07:18 PM

What I have read, not really searched for, just happened on, is that they tremendously interested in this in Africa and understand the significance...they have a beer named after him. There was also a very moving story about a Palestinian who was in tears when he heard his middle name was Hussein and felt a strong connection there. As in King Hussein of Jordan. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 07:20 PM

Somehow, I don't think the Palestinian story will help him much at the polls.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 07:29 PM

Nor would the cricketing association, I imagine.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 07:37 PM

Would I vote for Hillary???

Depends what she was is running for...

Ms. Cranky??? Sure, she has my vote...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 07:54 PM

Digression-
Hussein was the name of the grandson of Mohammad and became a very common Muslim surname. It is meaningless with regard to relationships (except within a closely related group (e. g. Hashemite Kings of Jordan, Almanach de Gotha). A news reporter often seen on BBC is Michal Hussein, whose family is from Pakistan.

Because Obama's father was Muslim, he is regarded as Muslim by Muslims, regardless of his church selection. Bariki is Arabic, meaning blessing or blessed, modified in Swahili to Baraka; also a widespread name.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 08:02 PM

It looks like Obama is quite capable of dealing with Old John McWar, Q. I wouldn't underestimate him.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 10:35 PM

That comment column on CNN that you linked didn't paint a very good picture for either Obama or Clinton.
"According to a Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg poll, McCain would be in tight races with either..." [candidate].
"McCain is statistically tied with Obama, 44 percent to 42 percent, and ahead of Clinton by six points, 46 percent to 40 percent." Considering electoral vote disposition, McCain would win over Obama.

"The poll also showed McCain with a 61 percent approval rating, a number higher than both Clinton's and Obama's in past polls."
"The Arizona senator holds a clear advantage on dealing with the war in Iraq, according to the poll, and holds a nine point advantage on economic issues over Obama ..."

"Quite capable?" Hmmm. A lot of people don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: goatfell
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 07:39 AM

if i was american I would vote for her but I'm then I'm a Scot

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 07:53 AM

I don't think anyone is underestimating Obama's ability to win. What I may be underestimating is his ability to govern effectively.

But that's what voting is all about. It is always a crap shoot at that level of power and money. Obama will make history all right. History as the candidate who vacuumed up more money than anyone in history.

And folks, that is a HUGE amount of money. Everyone should be deeply troubled by that, whether Obama is your guy or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 09:19 PM

GG - That's a really good point. No matter where an individual falls on the political scale, needing that much money to run for office is nothing short of obscene.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 08:36 AM

If I were there and eligible it would be a difficult call. I see Health as the most important issue, and the choice there is between the unenforceable and the unworkable. The only one who had it right was Kucinich. Billary is less worse.

But then there is the economy. The only way to get your economy right will be tax and spend to create domestic demand, and sort inflation later. Tax and spend could direct spending away from the places where money is hoovered up and sent to other countries as dividend, too. You desperately need that spend on infrastructure, if I read it right. You need proper unions and proper sanctions against criminal union-busters, and you need tougher competition law and cartel-busting. I don't think either candidate promises much, but there may be a smidgeon of a hope that Billary is less in the pocket of donors.

Then there's the war. De-invading may be the start of a path to reducing terrorism. You told us that about Northern Ireland and now we're telling you. You need to get out, but get out safely. McChips will keep you there for ever and probably start new wars, if allowed. I worry that Obama might make a grand gesture and leave you with another Saigon. So for me it's prudence Billary again.

Electoral reform - a desperate issue. Neither of them will do a damn thing.

At the end of the day, I'd feel that if someone has actually promised policies, there was a better chance of shaming them out of abandoning them, rather than one who simply promised a "better tomorrow". When was the last politician who promised a worse tomorrow? Was it Winston Churchill "I have nothing to offer you but blood, toil, tears, and sweat..."

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 10:18 AM

I would vote for Hillary over McCain. There might be a minute difference.
One big one is that I don't think Hillary would put us in Iran (but who knows?)

She has a public persona personality problem and this is the season for American Idol
politics. Issues get shoved out and placed in the rear of the warehouse to gather dust.

obama is a rock star. Hillary is the "bitch" of the day. It's all perception and what the media wants to show you.

I'm a Dennis Kucinich supporter but there was little chance for sanity in this election
process.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: GUEST,Voice of Truth
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 02:35 PM

HIllary is in my opinion more electible because 50% of the country (there abouts) is women. Women are going to be moved by her candidacy no matter what party they belong to. She also has more experience.

I agree with Rig that Obama has great issues that will prevent him from being elected by the majority of Americans- who will see him as too black, too liberal, too young, and not trustworthy when it comes to handling terrorism. I myself do NOT find him inspiring as a candidate,but my major issue is of complaints is with the Demorcats in general, who manage to put up candidates who will lose no matter how badly the opposing party has bungled the last administration. It's infuriating that they can never organize themselves into a viable alternative to the forty years we have had of increasingly conservative and right wing administrations. I am sure that Obama will not be elected if he becomes the candidate, and I think that people who are supporting him are in for a rude awakening.

btw, the sarcastic posters who say things like "unless you're off your meds" are one of the reasons I DO NOT give my real name on this site. As long as I agree with you, you're pleasant; when I give a thoughtful but alternative opinion, you're as nasty as the schoolyard bully. I don't think my posts have been deleted b/c I have said anything untoward; but because my statements don't fit in with love-blind Obama gushing that goes on in the general media and this site . I have seen vitriolic nonsense from many posters that have not been deleted, and I've seen MANY 'guests' spouting their opinions without censorship, but because I insist on speaking the truth (hence the new 'moniker'), my posts have been deleted.

And to those who standing in line to make further nasty remarks towards people who don't support Obama, I'd like to say that -for a so called liberal an progressive minded website, there's as much narrowmindedness, bullying and name calling going on here as fist fight on a FOX TV reality show.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 02:46 PM

VoT, your posts get deleted because you don't use a handle, let alone a consistent one. Now that you've chosen one you'll stay with, your posts will likely remain.

Gotta ask: "for a so called liberal an progressive minded website, " - who "so called" it that?

Subject: RE: BS: Voting for Hillary?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 02:52 PM

VoT, your opinion is of course your very own, but it is pretentius to call it Truth, unless you have some demonstrable inside track or hard data to offer.

The only way to get your economy right will be tax and spend to create domestic demand, and sort inflation later. Tax and spend could direct spending away from the places where money is hoovered up and sent to other countries as dividend, too. You desperately need that spend on infrastructure, if I read it right.

The issue is not whether to tax-and-spend. We already do that. The question is whether to spend on things that make thigns better, or on things that worsen the situations in play. Obama has as good a grasp on how to better the situation as anyone ont he field, and is also less scarred, stronger of character, and more conscious, IMHO, of the dynamics that make a difference in bettering the coutnry.

A