H. Plunket Greene on folk song

Subject: H. Plunket Greene on folk song
From: Saro
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 08:36 AM

"Unaccompanied folk-song singing is one of the most remarkable things in music. it breaks every rule of the art. It is the most ad libitum type of performance it is possible to imagine.... The singer may,in short give himself a free hand, break every rule and just sing; and yet he has a rhythm of his own so strong that it sets the heart of the trained singer leaping, so subtle that it defies imitation - wholly fascinating, wholly unlearnable. It is Nature as opposed to Art. No man who has not got it in his blood, and has not lived with it in his youth, can ever acquire it. The further he travels along the road of his art, the further heleaves that astounding sense behind."
from Interpretation in Song by Harry Plunket Green published 1912

And isn't it just that "leap of the heart" that draws us into folk song?
Saro

Subject: RE: H. Plunket Greene on folk song
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 08:50 AM

Brilliant find, Saro. Exactly what I've felt, and it's why some songs defy accompaniment, demanding a freer structure.

Some of the finest singers I have heard were unaccompanied. The rhythm and attack of the voice alone, the phrasing, everything, when it's working, are mesmerizing. You feel as if you have gone to the soul of music.

Hally Wood knew this. Horton Barker's unaccompanied singing was quite literally the only way to do justice to the songs he sang (and he knew how to play guitar). Jean Ritchie's "Cherry Tree Carol" is unimaginable with accompaniment. A.L. Lloyd was magnificent soloing in a way he never could be when accompanied. etc. etc. etc. for the dozens of fine singers -- American, British, and others everywhere -- who master this difficult art.

It's still how I sing certain songs, regardless of the pull of guitar, banjo, etc. Certain songs, if sung right, are only undercut, lessened in their impact, if an instrument is played with them. The trick is, the audience, when there is one, also has to know how to hear that. And folk revival singers find it a real challenge to learn.

Plus most people never even dreamed this was so. Which makes it all the more delightful to see a perceptive quote like that one. Thank you!

Bob

Subject: RE: H. Plunket Greene on folk song
From: Saro
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 09:05 AM

He's endlessly quotable - worth digging out the book if you can...
Saro

Subject: RE: H. Plunket Greene on folk song
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 10:16 AM

At the risk of being thought to have introduced "Thread Creep", this issue is one which occurred to me whilst reading through the long, long discussions about "Raglan Road"; a couple of contributors mentioned the number of beats certain words would have if the melody were sung in a strict metrical way. Of course, H P-G's observations about freedom, re. rhythm and phrasing and time &c., are directly relevant here.

Subject: RE: H. Plunket Greene on folk song
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 12:22 PM

agree 100 percent.I feel that I sing best when unaccompanied.
Dick Miles

Subject: RE: H. Plunket Greene on folk song
From: maeve
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 06:57 AM

Thanks, Saro. Just the sort of thing for which I've been looking. I'll see if I can track down the book.

maeve

Subject: RE: H. Plunket Greene on folk song
From: Saro
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 07:00 AM

The main reason I came across him is that he spent a lot of time in the area where I live - he was a keen fisherman as well as a singer, and wrote another book called "Where Bright Waters meet" about the Bourne and the Test (trout streams).
Saro

Subject: RE: H. Plunket Greene on folk song
From: maeve
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 07:02 AM

Oh, thanks! I'll search for both titles!

Subject: RE: H. Plunket Greene on folk song
From: Surreysinger
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 08:55 AM

It might be of some use to say a bit more about the man himself, as he is quite interesting. Apart from his love of fly-fishing, Harry (or more correctly Henry) Plunket Green was a very well known Irish born baritone, a performer on concert and oratorio stages throughout the length and breadth of the country at the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries. He was particularly involved with the works of Somervell, and Parry (whose daughter he married), and appeared in Henry Wood concerts etc etc. He was also quite often one of the soloists in first performances of works (eg Parry's "Job" was certainly one - I had the pleasure of taking part in the first ever recording of that work many years after it's first performance - HPG must have had quite a bit of vocal stamina as there is one fourteen minute aria in the piece which is performed by Job - the baritone part). Stanford wrote his well known piece "Songs of the Sea" specifically for HPG.

He was also very much involved in interpretation on the classical concert stage of English folksong. Lucy Broadwood was in much correspondence with him about various songs which she had arranged, and others which she had composed and which he championed on the concert stage. In his later life when he turned to lecturing on songs he reportedly became a champion of English folk song .... more info on him can be found in the Wikipedia entry at this place This also provides details of his various publications.

Subject: RE: H. Plunket Greene on folk song
From: Saro
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 11:38 AM

Here's another gem for everyone who arranges traditional songs (casts critical eye over her own work and grimaces) :

"The setting of folk-songs is so difficult that it may be almost legally assigned to the old hand. The master of the art does not flaunt his technique in your face or bejewel his Madonnas. He knows that here "beauty when undaorned is adorned the most" ."
I wonder what he thought of Lucy Broadwood's arrangements, Surreysinger?

I also like this bit about learning songs, which to my mind says something important about the strength of the songs passed down by oral tradition.

"Song deals with the great human emotions expressed inwords and the singer stands face to face with the audience. Hard work is no easy. Memorising is a work of extreme laboriousness but when that work is done it is in the singer's possession for ever. nay more, it has a power...of separating the sheep from he goats. To memorise a poor song is martyrdom... In the furnace of its refining fire the dross is burnt away and only the pure gold remains."

Saro

Subject: RE: H. Plunket Greene on folk song
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 06:06 AM

There's an article on Lucy Broadwood by E. David Gregory in the new edition of the Folk Musicm Journal. Harry Plunket Greene was her favourite male singer and he included at least two items from English County Songs in his repertoire.

Subject: RE: H. Plunket Greene on folk song
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 06:13 AM

Wow - what a great thread, you guys. I went a-googling and found this interesting-looking website:

http://www.plunketgreene.hampshire.org.uk/

Subject: RE: H. Plunket Greene on folk song
From: RTim
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:07 PM

Sarah - I meant to tell you:
- I liked the quote from Mr. Plunket Green about unaccompanied singing so much - Thank you for finding it,
that I have quoted it on my MySpace page (and of course given you and CMR a credit).
I also looked for his web presence - and found a page devoted to him - AND that he comes from (or lived) in almost the next village to you!

Best - Tim Radford
http://www.myspace.com/timradford

As an aside - I know of two Morris dancers in the USA - one called Frank Plunkett, and his wife Roberta Wackett! I often wonder what they call their house!

Subject: RE: H. Plunket Greene on folk song
From: Surreysinger
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 07:42 PM

Hi Saro ... as far as I can tell I think he generally approved of Lucy's work, judging by the fact that he was known for performing it a lot . In 1890 (before English County Songs was published) he was actually singing a couple of her own compositions - she was a composer in her own right, and arranger of Purcell and translater of Bach works , as well as being folksong collector and arranger - notably he was wellknown as a performer of her setting of the poem "Jess McFarlane". They had quite a bit of correspondence regarding some of her arrangements - and I think there was a bit of an argument about one of them before he was due to perform it in Liverpool (I'm remembering some of the correspondence from the top of my head here ... at some point I'll search it out for you !

Manitas - HPG sang far more than two of Lucy's arrangements and compositions (see above). Dave's article in the FMJ refers to Lucy's work prior to formation of the Folk Song Society ... it's well worth a read, as it details a lot of her earlier work. He has a book in the pipeline at the moment which provides a lot more detail regarding her, and other collectors in the period up to 1901, as a follow up to his most recent one for Scarecrow Press on "Folksong Hunters" ... which details the period up to the late 1890's - again I don't have the book immediately to hand, but it's also well worth a look at if you're into the academic side of things (although a little pricey for a paperback)

Subject: RE: H. Plunket Greene on folk song
From: Saro
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 03:21 PM

Tim, I first came across HPG because of his book about the Bourne and the Test "Where Bright Waters Meet" and it was only later I found that he was also a musician. Thanks for the mention on your myspace page...
saro

Subject: RE: H. Plunket Greene on folk song
From: Surreysinger
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 05:45 PM

Hi Saro and Tim

I thoroughly agree that it's a great quote BTW... and am going to copycat Tim and put it on my Myspace too (sorry to be so unoriginal, but I reckon its worth it .... big grin) I have to say, though, that I'm not 100% convinced of HPG's statement that " No man who has not ..... lived with it in his youth, can ever acquire it" is necessarily completely true ... difficult to know for myself , since I acquired the bug as a kid of around 8... however, I can think of at least one young person of my acquaintance who is in his twenties and only contracted the bug a few years ago,having stumbled across "our" music and is already singing as to the manner born (not going to name names though!!)

Subject: RE: H. Plunket Greene on folk song
From: Saro
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 09:08 AM

Yes, I think you are right, but maybe he was talking about people who were steeped in classical music, trying to sing folksongs, and we all know that sometimes they find it hard to do that well (in our ears, anyway).
Saro