Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop

Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs
From: GUEST,Uncle Jaque
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 11:25 PM

When we're doing Civil War reenactment, we have to be pretty careful of what we perform to who, and there are a lot of historical songs - particularly some of Steven Foster's - that we only play - at least in their entirety - to VERY select audiences!
At some of the major reenactments - like the one coming up this July in Gettysburg - some festive bunch will probably be gathered around a campfire in blackface doing an authentic period Minstrel show...
AFTER the public has all gone home! I'm here to tell ya; they are a hoot!

"Old Zip Coon", for example, is a catchy little minstrel tune and a natural for the banjo - but songs like that demand extreme social discretion!
One of the things that the Minstrels did was to caricature the ethnically distinctive dialect of the slave culture, which white people of the time found to be utterly and hysterically amusing.

Some folks just don't get it that we're trying to present "Living History" the way it WAS, not how the modern "enlightened" elite think that it ought to have been. Some of the "revisionist history" going on in public schools these days does, I opine, tremendous disservice to generations who have gone before us and have made America, for better or for worse, what we are today.

Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 11:19 PM

I suspect I'm saying that there might not be any politically correct or incorrect songs at all really. It could be that there are songs that push individuals' personal buttons at some given moment, just as there are cartoons depicting deities that set off the humongous ultimate Rube Goldberg Machine that, in the end, ignites the whole world and ends everything. And there probably might be just that wrong moment to sing a given song---or to write certain words. -- Just ask Salman Rushdie about that dynamic.

I've always felt those Rube Goldberg cause-and-effect mechanical machines were pretty funny, and also proof of some sort of "intelligent design."

That might be a fault of mine though, I guess. I see the humor in almost all of it. My list of songs were simply to show how timing and context is everything! I always figured that if anybody in my audience "takes offense," they ought to try to put it back quickly before all the cows get out! (pun intended--scroll down ;-)









(takes a fence!)
Just a little joke, but I didn't think it'd be THAT little!

It can sometimes get so quiet around Mudcat that you can hear a pun drop! ;-)

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 11:06 PM

Or "Sloop John B." for that matter.

Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 11:02 PM

Or, for that matter, dare I say it? What should we do with a drunken sailor!

Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 10:35 PM

And while we're at it, let's not forget the songs that glorify alcoholism, like:

Jug of Punch
Whiskey You're The Devil
Copper Kettle

...and about twenty thousand more.

Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 10:33 PM

"Buddy Can You Spare A Dime" -- I've sung it and been told that it made fun of the poor! Of course, the guy who criticized me wasn't hurting for a meal or decent clothing....

Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: john f weldon
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 07:39 PM

Coon from Tennessee
-on a Red Clay Ramblers vinyl circa mid seventies

Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Fred Maslan
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 07:17 PM

Recently came upon the lyrics for "Squaws upon the Yukon". Which actually was heard on the radio in the 1960's as I recall. And thought for about 2 seconds of singing it at song circle. but then reality hit.
Nope!

Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 06:38 PM

Yes, there are some above that puzzle me as to why they are politically incorrect. Perhaps we should give reasons.

Abdul the Bulbul Amir (racist)
The Sheikh of Araby (ditto)
Hog's Eye man (includes line, in some versions "Big buck nigger with his sea boots on)
Champion he was a Dandy (dog fighting)
The Old Alarum Clock (glorifies terrorism)

Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 06:32 PM

Murray, we used to LOVE singing UP Against the Wall, You Redneck Mothers! Esp. when JJWalker was there to sing it with!

I was upbraided one time in WY for singing She'll Be Coming Round the Mountain. The upbraider indicated that it was racist. I do not understand. Someone enlighten me, please?

Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Cool Beans
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 06:25 PM

I don't understand what's politically incorrect about "Brother, Can You Spare a Dime." Could someone enlighten me.

Subject: Lyr Add: SHORT PEOPLE (Randy Newman)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:59 PM

Art,

Great beginning for a what will no doubt be a long running discussion. Simply understanding why people feel songs are not "politically correct" (an objectionable term in many situations) is interesting. So many so quick to criticise, to not take the long view, to apply critical thinking, to draw on the sense of irony.

And BTW, here, from the Randy Newman site, are the words to Short People. Might as well finish up that squabble with a look at the words:

Short People

Short People got no reason
Short People got no reason
Short People got no reason
To live

They got little hands
Little eyes
They walk around
Tellin' great big lies
They got little noses
And tiny little teeth
They wear platform shoes
On their nasty little feet

Well, I don't want no Short People
Don't want no Short People
Don't want no Short People
`Round here

Short People are just the same
As you and I
(A Fool Such As I)
All men are brothers
Until the day they die
(It's A Wonderful World)

Short People got nobody
Short People got nobody
Short People got nobody
To love

They got little baby legs
That stand so low
You got to pick 'em up
Just to say hello
They got little cars
That go beep, beep, beep
They got little voices
Goin' peep, peep, peep
They got grubby little fingers
And dirty little minds
They're gonna get you every time
Well, I don't want no Short People
Don't want no Short People
Don't want no Short People
'Round here
___


My Dad had a lot of songs that could offend someone, and I think we learned a lot about the world and thinking when he explained to us what they meant. Talk about a liberal education!

SRS

Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:58 PM

Coon Songs invariably make someone cringe. In another thread "Kentucky Babe" and "Mammie's Little Coal Black Rose" come up.

Recently, there was some real harm done with a song from the 20s mildly ridiculing Japanese but mentioning Nagasaki and using an English word which translates to an insult in Japanese. Be sure of your audience and think before you sing.

Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:42 PM

well over half the Trad. Arr music is politically and sexually incorrect...I'm not going to stop singing and playing..

Here's One Now....

The Bird In The Bush

Charlotte (the erotic view from Ma and Pa's piano stool

Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:34 PM

Some fascinating responses. I even recorded some of those songs I listed. "The ballad Of Sherman Wu" was recorded by Pete Seeger on a Folkways LP.   It was about a student at Northwestern University in the 1950s who was kept out of Psi Upsilon frat because he was Chinese. It might've been the first BROADSIDE album on that label. It was meant to point out he wrongheadedness of what was going down. Some humorous lines fed on the stereotypes and many laughed in spite of the good intentions. It was a hard song to take seriously.

Maybe we need a thread on "Songs that are funny in spite of original serious intent!" --- How about "LIZZY LINDSAY" with ol' Ronald MacDonald showing up to woo Lizzy.

Ah, what ravages of fate the mere passing of time does to discredit an earlier generations sacred cows! It's like Al Grierson's great song about "Old Coyote"---the cosmic ultimate trickster had all four of his paws in these doings.------ Personally, I love those quirks of fate.
A hell hole of a place, a housing project in Chicago, CABRINI GREEN, was named for a nun----but it's hard to hear the name of that decent woman without thinking of the horrors endured by those unlucky enough to have lived in those buildings.

But I digress I guess. Sorry for creeping my own thread...

Art ;-)

Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:22 PM

I was once upbraided for singing "Poor Lil"

(Lil, she was a famous beauty.
She lived in a house of ill reputy.)

Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: meself
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 04:48 PM

(Good one!)

Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 04:42 PM

"the number of people whove misunderstood the words to Short People now runs into the millions."

the number of Randy Newman fans who've said this now runs in the millions*LOL*

Charlotte (who is 4 feet 11 inches tall)

Subject: Lyr Add: WHATEVER YOU SAY, SAY NOTHING
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 04:40 PM

Chorus:
Whatever you say, say nothing
When you talk about you know what
For if you know who could hear you
You know what you'd get
For they'd take you off to you know where
For you wouldn't know how long
So for you know who's sake
Don't let anyone hear you singing this song

And you all know what I'm speaking of
When I mention you know what
And I think it's very dangerous to even mention that
For the other ones are always near
Although you may not see
And if anyone asks who told you that
Please don't mention me

And you all know who I'm speaking of
When I mention you know who
And if you know who could hear me
You know what he'd do
So if you don't see me around
You'll know why I'm away
And if anyone asks you where I've gone
Here's what you must say

Well that's enough about so and so
Not to mention such and such
I think I'll end my song now
Sure I've already said too much
For the less you say, the less you hear
And the less you'll go astray
And the less you think, the less you do
And the more you'll hear them say

Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 04:30 PM

The Old Woman From Wexford (where to start?)
The Pill Song (contraception, religious belief)
Vietnam Jingle Bells
Blue-tail Fly
Jump Jim Crow
Yes, We Have No Bananas
Starving To Death On A Government Claim
Buddy, Can You Spare A Dime?
Lyndon Johnson Told The Nation
Dixie
Old Folks At Home
Carry Me Back To Old Virginny
Old Black Joe
Come Out, Ye Black And Tans
The Bold Raparree
Yankee Doodle
Tell Laura I Love Her
Lucy In The Sky
Whup Jamboree
Barbara Allen
Lord Randall

...hell, Art, 'most every song's got something in it to offend someone.

Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Amos
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 04:15 PM

"Why Do They Call Me Snowball"
"Way Down Yonder in the Cornfield"
"DIvil and the Farmer's Wife"

are a few that come to mind which parlayed biases about gender or color.

A

Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Cool Beans
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 04:15 PM

"Bill Johnson, The Monkey and the Dago." My late friend Downeast Bob used to sing it with gusto.

Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 04:09 PM

There were some fine Civil War examples. "Year of the Jubilo" comes to mind, as does "Sambo's Right to be Kilt". There's "Twelve Hundred More" (a bit later), "Damn, Damn, Damn the Filipinos" and "When a Lady's Wearing Pantaloons" from the Phillipine insurrection. (all in DigiTrad)

Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: bankley
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 04:03 PM

"I'm an Asshole"...Dennis Leary

a lot of Stephen Foster's songs have 'niggas' but that was then

David Allen Coe, and Loudain Wainright 3rd... have produced songs that could offend many...

thanks Art...

Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: meself
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 04:02 PM

"Oh well just another from the US who doesnt understand irony!"

Now would that be ironic, politically incorrect, or just plain ill-mannered?

Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: john f weldon
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 03:56 PM

Back in my younger hippie days, we used to frequent a local C&W bar; the band was great, even tho some of the other patrons were kinda scary. When the band asked for requests we yelled "Okie From Muskogee." The MC commented: "Geez, every time there's hippies in here, they ask for that song." They were frustrated that we DIDN'T take offense, and laughed along with them laughing at us.

Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 03:53 PM

Volgadon-

Yes, indeed. I think it's only fair to include ALL of the Lehrer songs. To exclude some would imply discrimination, which I personally cannot abide.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 03:47 PM

Black Betty.
God Save the King.

There is an old Russian song called the Liveried Nigger, but it's from 1911 and he hardly puts in an appearance, only to hand the singer's old flame her coat.
Gop so smykom is an old Russian criminal song, about a criminal who boasts that he'll burglar God's office and steal Judas' silver.

Charley Noble, you left out Lehrer's National Brotherhood Week!

Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 03:46 PM

Spaw has jolted my memory into recollecting Jerry Jeff Walker's "Up Against the Wall, Redneck Mothers", which could be considered non-PC.

Merle Haggard's "Okie from Muskogee" is either PC or non-PC depending on whether you believe his tongue was in his cheek when he wrote it.

Subject: RE: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 03:27 PM

Tucker Zimmerman ' s song " Handfull of Rain" has the line :-

'One mans's woman is another man's pain in the arse , but that's allright by me'

Subject: RE: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 03:26 PM

Hey Randy Fan.......I'm a fan too and the point/subject of this thread is politically incorrect which as often means words as well as ideas. Many Randy Newman songs are non-PC because of the words and not for their intent as used in the song.

We're rednecks, rednecks....Don't know our ass from a hole in the ground
We're rednecks, rednecks....Just keepin' the niggers down"

That's not PC no matter the real point of the song. One of the great charms of RN is just that........the language is true.

Great thread here Art!   I'm so damn glad you got that new computer!

And..........Ya' know, it sort of depends on what you're teaching just whether "East Texas Red" is politically incorrect or not. Outside of the gunplay there are a couple of solid moral/ethical ideas in there........Besides, I love the damn song (;<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: BK Lick
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 03:26 PM

From Wikipedia:

Newman often pokes fun at the misinterpretation of his song during concerts.

Subject: RE: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: GUEST,Randy Fan
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 03:11 PM

Oh well just another from the US who doesnt understand irony!

Subject: RE: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 03:04 PM

maybe you are the one who is misunderstanding the lyrics of "Short People", Randyfan ?

Subject: RE: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: john f weldon
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 03:00 PM

From an early Pete Seeger record:

I had a wife and got no good of her
Here is how i easy got rid of her
Took her out and chopped the head off her
Early in the morning (etc....)

"It's a shame to Whip your Wife, on a Sunday" (fiddlin John Carson)

Best of all, the earliest versions of Old Man River.
Paul Robeson actually used the dreaded N-word in early versions, and I have an Al Jolson version that does also. It is far more poignant than later revisions.

Ethnic sensitivity (although sometimes a good thing) is often the enemy of poetry.

Subject: RE: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: oldhippie
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 02:56 PM

"Send Me To Glory In A Glad Bag" - John Biggs comes to mind.

Subject: RE: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: GUEST,Randy Fan
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 02:56 PM

Murray the song has nothing to do with physical height!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 02:48 PM

I don't think I misunderstand the words, I enjoy the song, and I realise it is tongue-in -cheek, so I don't take offence.

But then again, I am over six feet tall ...

Subject: RE: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: GUEST,Randy Fan
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 02:39 PM

I believe that the number of people whove misunderstood the words to Short People now runs into the millions. Murray just adds to their number.

Subject: RE: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 02:32 PM

Randy Newman's "Short People" has to be included in any list of non-PC songs.

Subject: RE: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 01:54 PM

Art-

Practically any song Tom Lehrer composed was politically incorrect. Such was their charm.

"The Lavender Cowboy" (but only three hairs on his chest) is another classic which made the pop charts.

"My Last Cigar" was a lament of a young officer who had run out of stogies and was far out to sea. I always wanted to add the Kipling lines "A woman is only a woman but a good cigar is a smoke."

"The Anarchist Song" with its advocacy of trying to blow people up with the bomb, bomb, bomb. We used to think this was very amusing.

"The Tenure Tango" which is only politically incorrect from the prospective of university administrators.

"Dead Dog Scrumpy (Cider)" which might ferment further canine abuse.

"The Body in the Bag" which might encourage the same to felines.

Cheerily,
Charley Ignoble

Subject: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 01:30 PM

Ballad Of Sherman Wu (ethnically insensitive-but funny)
Blow Boys Blow (a whaling song)
Greenland Whalers-- as above
The Diamond -- as above
The Cock fight
Buffalo Skinners
Union Maid
East Of West Berlin
East Texas Red (gun-play to right a wrong)
Blackjack County Chain (murder for a good reason?)
Dobie Bill (gun-play to make things right)
Louis Collins -- gun-play-murder
Electric Chair Blues
The Wind And Rain (killing and making a fiddle from the bones)
The South Coast (mail order bride)
The Ladies Auxiliary (how women can help the union man)
Old Lady Who Swallowed A Fly (how can I count the ways?)
Cherry Tree Carol -- blasphemy
Bitter Withy (apocryphal blasphemy)
Billy Vanero (gun-play to set stuff right)
Zack The Mormon Engineer (anti Mormon/polygamy)
Pie In The Sky (blasphemy)
Sioux Indians (ethnic cleansing)
We've Got F.D.R. Back Again (anti Bush politics!?)
Aunt Martha (the dangers of gambling)
God Don't Like Ugly Baby Your Home Is In Hell
Night They Drove O' Dickey Down (Nixon)
Lord Thomas-beheading bride and kicking it against wall)
-------------------------------------------

These are just the few songs I can recall from my own repertory that were in the workshop called Politically Incorrect Songs. I did it at the University Of Chicago Folk Festival about 1988.

We do tend to toss the baby with the wash-water, do we not?

If Joe, or some kind clone, can pull my last post to the thread about the song "If I Were Free To Speak My Mind" and put it into this thread,it would be seriously appreciated!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: If I Were Free To Speak My Mind
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 12:48 PM

I'm gonna start a new thread I think. Once, I was asked by a folk festival to put together a 1-man workshop called "POLITICALLY INCORRECT SONGS. "There were MANY songs I had in my repertory that had become, for various reasons, over the years, politically incorrect and difficult, in many settings, to pull out and sing.   I thought they were all quite good or at least interesting songs historically, sociologically, etc.

Changing attitudes, the mere passing of time, personal enlightenment over some years...

Maybe, now, I ought to add "Kum Ba Ya" to that list !!!!!! ;-)

But done in a retrospective, as history, possibly with a relevant story/joke, tossed in --- to prove a connection to modern people, times and events --- the chorus to this song served as a perfect way to tie the tales within the various songs together.

It is pleasant to recall that old workshop. We MUST learn to learn from history! Until we evolve to the place where we can truly empathize with other people and/or species, I doubt our civilization has much of a chance to make it a part of our sensory input.

Art Thieme

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Transferred in per request. JC