Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Fadac
Date: 21 May 99 - 06:45 PM

Chet, That's the best idea yet. It's time to squeeze the old squeeze box.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Chet W.
Date: 21 May 99 - 06:34 PM

I don't know about you guys, but I'M disgusted. Little did I expect that a hot argument over a social issue would end up including open racist comments, comfirmed by repetition. Let's get out of here and play some music.

Chet W.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Penny S.
Date: 21 May 99 - 06:25 PM

Katlaughing, that was why I was going to dump it. There's been a lot of stuff I could have written on a number of threads I haven't, but it is very stress relieving to write and bin. I'll make a point of doing it in the wordprocessor from now on, and copying across to avoid any more problems. Gee, am I glad I didn't finish that sentence! Of course I realise that those opinions are not the only ones: one thing about Mudcat is that it is a tremendously educative place about the range of people and opinions there are in the English speaking world, and how they can get on, even when opinions differ. Even when some people try to transfer the responsibility for what they have said to the person who objects to it.

Penny

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 May 99 - 04:46 PM

PennyS: remember, not ALL of us feel that way. There is so much more to it than a few handy phrases to spout, isn't there?

Katlaughing

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Fadac
Date: 21 May 99 - 04:31 PM

Touched a nerve eh, Penny? Is OK, we love ya anyway. We are a revolting bunch, we are. Have been sence the darn Romans came, why stop now? Loch Sloy!

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Penny S.
Date: 21 May 99 - 04:28 PM

Sorry, pressed the wrong button. I'll leave that sentence unfinished. But I do get cross with being blamed for the misdeeds of the ruling classes when my ancestors had no way to curb them.

Penny

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Penny S.
Date: 21 May 99 - 04:26 PM

Can people please remember that not all English are clearance causing, land grabbing nobs, and that it was going on in England as well, and part of being English is a tradition of revolting, which went on long after we sent some of the radicals to America and Australia. Saying "The English did..." whatever, is just as accurate as saying

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Fadac
Date: 21 May 99 - 03:57 PM

Tom, Anytime. If you make it a Thursday, there is a great group of Sea Chantiest (?) at a place called Quinns Light house. Great place. Penut shells on the floor. Porter Beer. Foot stomping music. Try [e-mail]. Cheers! Fadac

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: tomtom
Date: 21 May 99 - 03:49 PM

You better watch out Fadac. I might end up in San Fran one of these days and take you up on that beer.

tomtom

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Fadac
Date: 21 May 99 - 03:38 PM

tomtom. I'm not much of a city boy. I only goto San Francisco under duress. Even here in the southern part of the SF bay area, there are way too many people for me.

Well I am a lifetime member of the MacFarlanes. So I guess being a bit reactionary is in the blood, eh? Well I think it was my g-g-grandmother that was forced off of her land in Scotland, so the English could raise more sheep. But that was then, this is now. To compaire London with all of the British Isles, isn't very fair to either. That's like looking at Harlem, in New York and calling all that the USA. Carring a hunting wepon there is about as silly as carrying a boom box and bopping up Mt. Shasta. Yeah, you can do it, but...

Tomtom, I don't think there is an easy answer to the questions raised here. A big part of the problem is that there are just too many people in too small a place. Every place is a bit differant. One of the tough things that folks try and do is to place their morals on other people. (Christions are real good at this.) Even if they can't follow their rules themselves.

Another good example is this...the internet. This is the very first time in the history of the human race, that there is real free speach. This very fact is driving some people crazy. Why with free speach, people might look at naked women, or talk about bombs, or be Jewish, or play banjos, or what ever the reactionarys want to jump up and down about.

Anyway, if you were here Tom, I'd buy you a good Anchor Steem beer, and play a sea song for you.

Happy Friday.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: tomtom
Date: 21 May 99 - 03:32 PM

Thanks Kat.

I guess I'm drifting from the point over here. I took a quick look at the xenophobia thread. Looks interesting. But I'm supposed to be working right now. I'm a baaaaad boy.

tomtom

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: LEJ
Date: 21 May 99 - 03:28 PM

I'm sure all the Brits who read Tucker and fadac's post are REAL comfortable with the assertions that "we saved their butts in two wars" and the implication that they are genetically inferior. I guess the genetic thing was humor.England lost a generation of young men in World War 1, as did France,Germany and others. It was a vicious stalemate that the entry of the US did little to change. And if it hadn't been for the balls of the RAF in the skies over Britain, in addition to the bravery and determination of the Russian people, the US would have been a lonely island in a sea of fascism in World War 2.Nevermind that England continues to be our staunchest ally, no matter how nasty a situation we get ourselves into.

One thing they don't understand is the American distrust of government. This trait is deep in our character, and part of what distinguishes Americans as individualist achievers. The outer edge of this is what drives the militia groups and various far-right fringe groups. It's also what makes Americans latch on tightly to the second amendment, "the right of the citizenry to keep and bear arms." We don't have the long history of England, with a tradition of cycles of good and bad governments, and the sense that the country will outlive all of these cycles. To a great extent, America is an AGREEMENT between it's citizens known as the Constitution. That is why we take this issue so seriously.

LEJ

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 May 99 - 03:07 PM

Here's a really good thread to read which has some bearing on some of what is being said here. Well worth the read: click here

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: tomtom
Date: 21 May 99 - 02:26 PM

Fadac,

I used to live and work in London, so I guess I do know how Brits can be--whatever that meams. But maybe this British fellow was refering to the fuel-efficiency of American cars as compared to European cars. But even if this guy was a real putz (aka wanker), that doesn't mean Brits or Italians or Mongolians can't have interesting, informed opinions about what goes on in the States. Even the French can have informed opinions:). (That's just a joke, don't shoot me).

You said: "Now, I'd love to move to Scotland. So I don't hate them all that much." I hope this is a joke. If not, I'm sure all the Scottish Mudcatters out there are relieved.

tomtom

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Fadac
Date: 21 May 99 - 01:47 PM

TomTom, The reason that some of us pick on the Brits so hard is, that if you have been there. You get all this upitiy attatude. Like, "You Americans, you have to have big gass guzzlers, gas would be cheeper if you drove cars like us." Yeah this dufus really said that to me when I was in the midlands. Now 99% of the Brits are really cool people, but remember they shipped out radicals for over 400 years. So the ones that are left, well, the genes have been picked over for a while. Now, I'd love to move to Scotland. So I don't hate them all that much. Also a long drive for my UK friends is about 15 miles. Over that they want to stay overnight. (no kidding) I used to tell them that driving from San Francisco is like driving from London to Moscow. However I lied, That drive would only get you to Chicago. You are a 1000 miles short of NY. Folks in Europe just don't relize how big the US of A is. I live near San Francico, and I can take you places, within a 100 miles, where you will be 20 miles from a road. You either hike, fly, or ride a horse to get around. BTW you might want a rifle or a handgun there. Cougers get about one jogger a year. Last year a friend of mine had a deer in his front yard. The poor thing freaked out as everyone tried to catch it. (he lives about 15 miles from the woods) I'm not saying he should have shot it, but suppose that it was a couger and you hade a youngster in your yard. Sound unlikly, yes probably is, however, hunting is becomming less popular, so the food supply is less and less for more and more critters. ( I do rember my father shooting a bear on our back portch, back in about 1952. The bear wanted the garbage.) OH, well, that's my .02 worth. Happy Friday.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 21 May 99 - 12:51 PM

Tom Tom, Amen.

Rick, your response was a repressed grin? I'm not even gonna go there.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: tomtom
Date: 21 May 99 - 11:15 AM

Tucker,

I think you're being a little hard on our British friends overseas. Maybe I missed something, but I can't recall reading anthing by a Brit in this thread that was particularly confrontational or insulting. And believe it or not, even though they're only British, they're entitled to an opinion about gun control, too. In fact, opinions from people who are "outside" a situation can often be valuable. They can peer inside the "heat in the kitchen" without getting their glasses steamed up.

I'm also struck by a lot of your language. Things like "And you English want to tell us about Gun Control!" I'm American (actually only half, my father's East Indian, fresh off the boat), but I don't consider people from other countries as other than myself. And I don't think their opinions are worthless, even if this particular discussion has to do with the situation in America.

I'm also struck by your incessant looking to the past. Of course, we can learn from history. The Cold War taught me how short-sighted and stupid people can be. And I'm talking about BOTH SIDES of the Cold War coin. I don't know when this poor boy was hanged for steeling bread, but I don't think it was in the last couple of weeks. And I don't think it's bound to happen again any time soon. And if you want to look into the sordid history of a nation (and remain on the topic of hangings), why don't we think about lynchings in this country for a moment, and think about how recently those disgusting events have taken place. But then again, why can't we instead look to the future, and find a way to make sure these types of things don't happen again. Finger pointing and playing your-country's-worse-than-my-country isn't going to help anything.

Oh yeah, and disarm the world. :)

tomtom

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 May 99 - 11:02 AM

Hi. Just a short disclaimer here. I certainly have nothing of value to contribute to this thread since the collecting of guns as a hobby is as much a mystery to me as sticking pins in dead butterflies and putting them in glass cases.I just wanted to let folks know that contrary to Tucker's claim that "like him, I want to get back to music", my last posting was supposed to be a small bit of humour in a pretty heavy thread. Just a little tension breaker, ya know. I'll never be one of the "less B.S. more music" folks, cause I think there's a very healthy balance.
I think it's great that the "furriners" feel comfortable enough to speak honestly about the subject, and I gather that they they repress small grins when they hear the old "We bailed you out in two wars" thing. Gotta keep in mind, since most of us like music from other countries, we often comment on cultural differences between us. Seems fair game to me, even in sensitive areas.
But I gotta tell ya Tucker, I'd rather hear you describing your flowers than your arsenal.
Rick (deprived of armaments as a child)

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Uilleand
Date: 21 May 99 - 10:13 AM

Tucker, I'm sorry you feel insulted because of differing opinions. It seems we all have rather strong beliefs and feel as passionately about the subject as you do. It maybe easier to assume that no insult is meant, and acknowledge that it is just a heated argument. Because if we'd all take offense at everything we'd really be at each others' throats. And hopefully there is no gun around, lest someone be overcome by passionately defending their point of view.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Slider
Date: 20 May 99 - 10:04 PM

Ever since the horrible event in Colorado, I've been hearing a song from Carole King's album "Tapestry" in my head. Remember "Smackwater Jack" ? Seems to me that the whole scenario is laid out there with only minor modifications...instead of a church,think school...instead of "Big Jim The Chief",think The Government...instead of the undertaker, think The Media...Just a few lines from someone who checks in often but seldom has something to say. Greetings from a very wet Minnesota.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Margo
Date: 20 May 99 - 09:37 PM

Uilleand: I will try to explain owning a gun but not out of fear. As I see it, you can do almost anything with different motivations. You could brush your teeth because you're AFRAID you'll get cavities or you can do it because you know it is a good measure of prevention, but not really WORRY about it.

I owned a cafe years ago in rural Oregon. At that time I thought it a good idea to carry a firearm. I got a concealed weapon permit and always had it with me when doing business, or shopping for the restaurant. I took gun safety courses (not required at that time) and practiced handling my weapon. I was prepared to take care of myself in the event of foul play. After all, I was young and single. It just seemed like a good idea.

I'm sorry I don't seem to be very articulate about doing something without fear. I simply don't know how to express it other than saying I'm not afraid.

We do have guns in the house. They are LOCKED UP and I NEVER think about them. They are a tool at the ready. The kung fu master always preached "expect the unexpected". I guess that describes it.

It is a dangerous thing to be fixated on the weaponry of the past tragic school shootings. I have heard in the news some people say things like "the first thing I thought of was where did they get the guns?" GOOD HEAVENS, I shout at the TV, MY FIRST THOUGHT IS HOW DID THAT CHILD COME TO THAT STATE OF MIND THAT THEY WOULD DO SOMETHING SO HORRIBLE?

I believe it is truly naievete to want to make more and more laws restricting ability to get guns because let's face it. They WILL ALWAYS BE Available via black market. Let's get to the root of the problem instead.

I'm getting dizzy...I think the air is thin up here on this soap box. I'm getting down now :o)

Margarita

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 May 99 - 09:02 PM

Melt 'em down and make em' inta pisspots. That way they can all stop pissing in the wind. Mmmmmm, mayhap there's a song in that?

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Chet W.
Date: 20 May 99 - 08:57 PM

If you can step outside of simple-minded tunnel vision for two seconds, nobody, at least not me, wants to take your guns. I just want them to be harder to get. Law-abiding sane citizens like yourself can fill their homes to the ceilings with guns for all I care; I just don't want them to be routinely and easily available to young people or criminals, particularly demonstrated ones. If you're truly not willing to change your lifestyle just a little bit to even slightly increase another parent's chances of getting their kid home at the end of the school day, then I hope I am one of the half of your friends with whom you have no common ground. One of you needs to learn a little history, and the other should be a little more cautious about twisting it to their own purposes like some kind of Limbaugh/Liddy robot. If your cajones are still intact, check the "Hesitatingly, GUNS again" thread and answer my question. What if it was the school your children attend. Do you give a damn about anyone else?

Angrily, Chet W.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Tucker
Date: 20 May 99 - 08:36 PM

ok, I have a fews things to admit, One: yes I am new to Mudcat, Two: I have been in folkmusic longer than most of you: Three: If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen! 4, I think I have made some friends here, and maybe we disagree about some things, but I will not attack you personally. That is what America is about. If you don't want to own a firearm, fine, but please don't try to insult me to advance your cause. I Deplore violence! I hate discord! War sucks. I want to see a wonderful world...no robberys, no murders, no presidents avoiding rape charges by invading other countries. Ok, I have made probably half of you mad. You love it or you wouldn't be reading this. If you can handle it hang on, more to come! I saw a lot of feed back from foreign (to US viewers)users. Ok guys, you in England and such. Who did you look to in WW1 and WW2? Like today, we had no reason to be involved in any Balkan war, but for your kings and lords we got involved and lost 3/4 of a million of our people. We used to learn a lot in history class, but no longer. I have many guns hanging on my walls. Most haven't been shot in years, and unless I am threatened will harm no one again. I cannot say the same for their history. A spanish mauser was used to surpress their civil war. A Turkish Mauser was used to kill " Allied Troops" in WW1. Two SKS rifle symbolize communisium and the damn fear I had to live through as a child. Christ! Our teacher in 6th grade told us we would be incinerated by thermoneuular bombs! Now Bloody Bill has sold us out to China and you want me to give up my guns? Oh, and I didn't mention the use of the two Lee-Enfields did I? We neer-do- well americans ( I could be classified as native american, by and by,). The Lee-Enfields, won't kill black africans again,Nor Turks, Nor Irish, Nor Scots,Nor anyone else. I recall an account of a London newspaper where a five year old was hanged. The poor waif didn't weigh enough to suffieciently kill himself ( for stealing bread ) that the hangman had to grab onto the poor child and hold onto him until he was dead! And you English want to tell us about " Gun Control!

admittedlly, I realize there is double speak here and like Rick I want to get back to music. The first amendment, like the 2nd, like the 10th, mean what they say. I respect our overseas friends but I am an American And had I wished to be disarmed an go through another Cologen I would make passage with Bonnie Prince Charlie Two Never Happen!

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Fadac
Date: 20 May 99 - 01:16 PM

This is about .01 worth.

I'm sure the parents of Sally Klass, may not agree. Oh, How come when I fly in parts of Canada, I'm REQUIRED to have a firearm in the aircraft? One thing about shooting someone in the act of raping your wife. You can be SURE that one will never hurt anyone again. Perhaps walking around armed in old fashoned. But unitll about 100 years ago, a gentleman just didn't go on the streets without being armed. People were a lot more polite then. I wonder why?

On the media again, nothing new there. Wasn't it the Spanish American war started by a N.Y. NEWSPAPER OWNER. Didn't he tell his reportors, "You report, I'll provide the war." I think it was Hurst, but I'm not sure.

Two stories: 1. Woman beat up and raped = Front page news 2. Woman shoots raper = Big news on dead rapers family.

I did see a woman crying on Chicago TV. She was all upset that her "Good Boy" was shot and killed robbing a liqure store. Her "Good Boy" had robbed THAT store four times that month! (Didn't say he was the brightest lamp on the tree.) The cops had busted him over 20 times for robery. Finely one store owner had enough.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 20 May 99 - 12:39 PM

My father was the oldest of ten children who when his parents emigrated from Dublin to Brooklyn stayed a while and moved to Toronto, Canada. Thus we were the only ones in our family to grow up in Canada. I visit my American kin several times a year. There are many things I like about the United States, but as a Canadian I can't begin to fathom the second amendment. I have very conservative views by Canadian standards, I'm in favour of capital punishment if there is concrete evidence that a murder was willingly committed, and I believe that jail terms are far to short in many cases.

I do not want the right to own a gun, and I sure as hell don't want to be in a society where my neighbours have that right. Guns kill, plain and simple. It's who they kill that concerns me the most. About ten years ago Life Magazine devoted an entire issue to the devastation that was caused by guns the previous year, printing pictures of all the victims with a brief description of the cause of death. The vast majority were killed either accidently or intentionally by the "Family gun" Many of these victims were children. I realize that each year a great number of children are accidently poisoned in their homes from, many drown in backyard pools, are run over by family vehicles etc. But guns are designed for killing. How many domestic arguments have ended in tragedy because there was a gun handy? You could argue that kitchen knives have caused a large number of deaths in these situations, but at least you have a chance of overpowering or outrunning a person wielding a knife, you also have a far greater chance of surviving a knife wound than a gunshot.

There is a chance that my home may be broken into. There is nothing that I own that is important enough to me to put my children's lives at risk by having a gun in the house. The NRA have said for years that if you outlaw guns, then only outlaws will have guns. What a crock of crap. Outlaws will continue have guns, but so will the police forces who are paid to defend us from outlaws. Canada is not as safe a place as it was when I was growing up, but I trust that my family and I will be protected from the criminal element.

I know that I am responsible enough to own a gun, but I'm not willing to bet my life that the general population is as responsible.

I believe the second ammendment was written over two hundred years ago. Times were a lot different and the threat of The U.S.A being attacked by any number of countries was still great. The U.S. did not have the military strength assembled that they do now and I could see why in that era it was not a bad idea to have arms readily available just in case a makeshift army had to be assembled in a hurry. But those times are long gone and it is time to stop the carnage. I know that I'm not going to change anyone's views nor they mine. The only thing this forum will prove is that nobody knows what the heck "Ode to Billy Joe" is about.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Alice
Date: 20 May 99 - 12:22 PM

Please see the related thread, More Casualties

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 May 99 - 12:07 PM

The media, of which I am a part, are motivated by one thing only, what sells. If the public will buy it, they will publish it. IT's as simple as that. If you don't like what they are doing, get rid of your cable, discontinue the newspaper, turn of your radio, start your own. Start a boycott; talk to your neighbours and friends about it.

The media is panning to the majority of the masses which, I believe, mostly has its head up its ass.

Cara is right. If we truly want change we must exercise our right to vote and to use free speech. Voting numbers are pathetic; something like 20% of the elgible voters in this country actually voted. The rest either complain that their one vote won't matter or would rather posture, complain, load up and prepare for Big Government's seige. Guess what? Big Government is us! Americans with families, mortgages, and other things just like the rest of us.

Arming ourselves against each other is a throwback mentality of fear of the unknown, of change, of anything different; of trying to talk it out, come to a compromise and find real solutions for why people feel the need for violence. It is a construct leftover from pioneering days and the patriarchal Picean Age, in which the solution to almost any conflict, has been violence.

This is the Aquarian Age, an age of balance and equality. The death throes of the old age are causing the anxiety and extremes of violence and reactions. Answering violence with violence will never solve the problem.

You shoot an intruder, an extremist neighbor who assaulted your family. You stand trial and get off on self-defense. His family,being the extremists he taught them to be, vow revenge and come after you. You are under seige, again, and it could become an all out war with the "feds" coming in. So, was arming yourself the solution? Did it result in anything positive?

Was there a third solution, maybe even a fourth? Could you arm yourself with non-lethal means which police are starting to use, including gobs of gluey stuff which shoots long range then hardens on the person so that they cannot move? Or any of a number of other non-lethal methods coming out?

When we keep our consciousness on a level of fear and expectation of violence, we can attract such happenings. Using the power of our mind to create a "bubble" of protection powered by whatver god you might believe in can help, as well as keeping your thoughts in a positive vein; and using practical knowledge which keeps you aware of what is going on around you.

I know there are arguments against such a "pollyanna" statement, but there are also anecdotal stories which prove the protection can work, according to our individual beliefs.

Race consciousness, by which I mean the common, cleective consciousness of humankind, may claim that we are threatened and no place is safe. We can rise above that to the Truth, or to what could be if we keep our consciousness focussed on the positiveness we would like to manifest in our lives. This can have a ripple effect every bit as powerful, if not more powerful than the negative vibrations of the masses, thus passing on the more positive effects to others, much as we pass on the beauty and care of music here.

We do not have to buy into the negativity of race consciousness. If one-by-one we were to refuse to believe it, then pass that positiveness on to the next person, it could have a snowball effect, just as the first person who decided not to throw away a soda bottle, started the recycling movement which may save out planet from ourselves.

In the Big Picture, of course, it doesn't matter. We are a miniscule part of the Earth's history and She will go on with or without us. And, regardless of any measures we may take to tune-in and stay safe with or without lethal means, it is my belief that karma plays an equally important role which sometimes cannot be overcome. Also, that when it does come our time to "go", there is nothing which will circumvent that event.

Sorry, Penny, I don't think that's very squidgy, today. Dai, I don't understand some of us over here, either. It's as though America is a teenage hoodlum who just hasn't matured enough to see the harmfullness and non-efficacy of its ways.

kat, where'd those worms come from, I just opened this can!

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Bulldog
Date: 20 May 99 - 11:53 AM

If the Soviet Union could not disarm the Pathans in Afghanistan. The British have not disarmed the IRA for 500 years. How on earth are you going to prevent anyone from manufacturing guns in their own back yard workshops? Murder can be committed by golf clubs, knives, arrows, spears, chainsaws, axes, shovels, bombs, poisons and a variety of weapons. What will we register next??? The NRA support education and responsible use of firearms yet everyone dumps on them! Well people, Ignorance can be cured but Stupidity we have to live with. As for the Shits in society. we need to be protected from criminals and the police are not here to protect individuals. You are responsible to protect yourself, then let the police figure out if it was justified. Personally I think it is easier to get out of jail than to get out of a grave. I will keep the ability to defend me and mine thank you......

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Fadac
Date: 20 May 99 - 11:06 AM

Another .02 worth.

I get real nervis when I hear about "The People" being more important than any individual. Isn't that the phrase the Nazis used. Something like, "We need to protect you from the Jew."

You just can't pass laws and protect everyone from everything. (In the UK they used to hang people for stealing bread.) Some where down the line, folks have to look out for themselves. People must take responsibilty for their own actions. If you are under age, then your parents are responsable.

I ride a motorcycle. If I choose not to wear a helmet, I may injure myself more if I have an accident. My problem, my responsibilty. Should I expect scocity to take care of me, yes, in the emergcy room if needed. You might say, well that's self infliceted, so we are not going to pay for that. OK, how about shin splints on joggers?

The media. Egad, how I hate them. When they had the Rodny King riots a few years ago, down in La la land. The local news people were almost in tears that they couldn't report on a riot too. I saw this "newsi" talking to a black guy, and saying something like this. "Hey, they are rioting down in La, Why aren't you rioting too?" I thought that the news guy was going to give the black guy a brick to throw. Fortunitly the black guy was smart enough to figgure out what this clown was doing to him. He just laughed and walked away.

Don't EVER underestamate the power of the media. They live for only two things. Misory and sensiationalizm (sp?). They also have no responsobilty to anyone but them selves. We don't let any other goups get away with that. (Cops, firemen, school bus drivers) You can't even get a finiacial disclosure from a news person. So who's paying them on the side?

Too much for a cloudy Thursday.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Cara
Date: 20 May 99 - 10:44 AM

I really wanted to say that I loved Dai's point about the rights of the community superceding the rights of the individual; or rather, the good of the community being held above all. Isn't it time we all agree (here in the US) that the greater good is not served by the proliferation of easily-available weaponry? "The greatest good for the greatest number"--that Utilitarian guy (John somebody, a Brit I think) had the right idea.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Cara
Date: 20 May 99 - 10:35 AM

One more for gun culture.

I don't understand either Dai. And I live here. My home state, Ohio, has been plagued by this new militia uprising--these new ones, which received a lot of press post-Oklahoma City, are arming themselves against the US government though, not a foreign force. Lots of "jack-booted thugs" rhetoric; same language was used in an NRA membership letter a few years back, which angered some. I have issues with Big Government from time to time myself, but I prefer to deal with it using those other Constitutional rights of mine; the vote and my free speech. "You have to use the master's tools to dismantle the master's house" (Audre Lord, I believe).

If everyone wants to blame this on the media creating bad kids, let's look a little further back: is the media's obsession with gun violence so far removed from America's obsession with guns?

I just have to cling to the hope that America will wake up as a nation and see that this gun culture thing just isn't working out for us. Why are there laws about helmets and seat belts and car seats? Because people are too bull headed to do it on their own. They can't handle the responsibility apparently. Same with guns; we have had the right to bear arms for long enough to prove that we can't handle it.

My colleague just called to say that her son's high school in suburban VA received a bomb threat this morning. I just talked to her and she's frantic, in the wake of all this other crap who wouldn't be? Where does it end.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Penny S.
Date: 20 May 99 - 10:32 AM

Dai, if I was in anything, I'd be a Digger! Leveller at least. When I was interested, there wouldn't have been any way for me, as a woman, to do anything sufficiently aggressive. I'm not aggressive any more.

And the really nice thing about not having guns about is that I don't have to think about guns unless I want to.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Fadac
Date: 20 May 99 - 10:10 AM

Ah, Brits, well I did live in the UK for a while. The British have such creative ways of killing people. Shotguns are reasonably avaible, as well as hacksaws. But to compair the British with Americans on this item, really isn't fair to either side. After all you could drop 90% of the UK into California, and still have a bit of room left over. Also they have had much more opresive goverments than we have had. They just fought their goverments with bows and arrows. However I do remember reading a magizine from the 1940's begging Americans to send what ever they had in rifles and handguns to England. I think that was all about Hitler or some such guy over-there.

The last time a loose Militia was formed was abour the time of Pancho-Via. He raided up into New Mexico, killing Americans. For some reason the Americans didn't like that very much, and they fought back. What all this has to do with a law-abiding citizen from owing a handgun, is beyond me. I'd rather play my accordion than shoot anyway. However if I find someone harming my wife or children, I WILL use any means to protect them. If I have to shoot, I will. Anyway, lets go squeeze a tune. :)

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 20 May 99 - 09:42 AM

I've just gone to the trouble of looking up the 2nd amendment, not being familiar with the text. This in the light of just hearing about more shootings at a school over there... hm...

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

How do you reconcile this statement, clearly aimed at having a dispersed guerilla force to fight the British should they ever reinvade the colony, with the proliferation of firearms meaning that your granny has to pack a Steyr AUG?

Somebody, please explain this to me. I do not understand.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: hank
Date: 20 May 99 - 08:55 AM

What if 13 kids were killed on a bus because one kid wrestled the driver out of his chair, and rolled the bus? I think that is a more apt anology as these kids broke several laws in colorado to get the guns in school. Two kids can easially wrestle most bus drivers down, and once the kid gets the bus moving the rightful driver will have no correct way to get back in control, wresteling the kid out risks the same thing the kid did, and letting the kid say does the same.

As for fear, I do not own a gun because I'm afraid, I own a gun because I enjoy a weekend hunting, and the DNR enjoys me paying to help them control populations so that they don't have to hire hunters to control excess animoles.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 20 May 99 - 07:38 AM

I humbly take back "smart moth".

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Banjer
Date: 20 May 99 - 07:04 AM

Well!! Alex comes out from hiding with the question...."What is a Dingbat anyway?"....It seems that before you call another a name it would help to know what you are calling them...And me, I am now a SCHIZOPHRENIC...Ah, Alex, you say the kindest things...Thanks from both of us!!

PS All note that Alex is getting into the swing of things by asking Rick "Who are ya calling a 'smart moth'"?...Kinda infectious, this litle group, huh Alex?

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 20 May 99 - 06:43 AM

Godde Sayve Kynge Charles Stuart, Prince Rupert of the Rhine, and Queen Christina of Sweden!
Earl of Northampton's Regiment, Sir William Compton's Companie. Please don't tell me you're in Skippon's.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Penny S.
Date: 20 May 99 - 05:25 AM

Dai, which side are you on with that cannon?

Penny

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 20 May 99 - 05:02 AM

Please pardon my ignorance, I'm a dumb limey, and don't have the benefit of having my 'rights' enshrined in a written constitution.

The way things (used to?) work over this side of the pond are that the rights of the individual are always subject to the rights of the community. At least, that's the way I see it. The possible outcry against the criminalisation of handgun ownership after Dunblane never happened - because we thought it more important to do something.

I'm having a little difficulty relating to the fear evident in the postings of all the guys who need firearms to defned themselves against the government. OK, I can understand that much of the US is remote and unpoliced, and that responsible residents of those areas need to preserve some deterrent against crime. But how many of you are scared of what Washington might do? What's the historical background??

Incidentally, I possess a firearms certificate, and a license to handle explosives. In the UK, individual weapons have to be licensed and listed on the document - mine says "Calibre: 4 3/4 in - Type: Cannon". However, I've never been tempted to take it to McDonalds with me.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Alex
Date: 20 May 99 - 12:23 AM

Who you callin' a smart moth?

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 May 99 - 05:28 PM

I think the "music only" folks are drawn to these threads like moths to a flame. Who knows, they may emerge as "smarter moths!"

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Moonchild
Date: 19 May 99 - 04:11 PM

Okay ... Ode to Billy Joe was about infanticide and suicide. It was part of my repetoire because I had many requests for it.

Actually, I don't have a problem with other's owning guns, as long as they take the necessary precautions and reponsibility of ownership. My father carries a shotgun when he goes fishing in North Florida because he frequently encounters rattlesnaks, cottonmouths, and alligators. My sister lives in Alaska, is an ace shootist, and keeps her guns locked in a steel gun cabinet.

And, yes, I have a tremendous amount of anger in me, and probably will for the rest of my life. And I won't own a gun because I'm afraid of being startled and shooting an innocent. I do, however, have police-quality tear gas foam, and, if someone does cause me to use it, whether they are innocent or not, I will not feel guilty.

And, Alex ... I agree with all those who say you should not open a thread if it screams of BS.

I come from a very conservative family, my closest friends are very conservatiive, my coworkers are conservative. I enjoy the BS threads because it gives me an opportunity to have some rousing "conversations," with a group of mostly intelligent people, whether we all agree or not.

If this isn't your thing, (how many different ways can one say) don't go there ... moonchild

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Mudjack
Date: 19 May 99 - 03:43 PM

All the gun legislation in the world won't fix the problem and show me anyone in today's world who will die over the second amendment. What is in my home is my business and will I defend it? Yes with anything I own rather it be a gun or a song regardless of what my constitutional rights are.
I am always impressed with the bumber sticker that says it all.
You can have my GUNS, over my dead body.
To me it simply sums it up, no matter what gun prohition laws are passed, some will give their lives in defending that right. When the Gestapos come knocking on your door, will you live up to your promise,and die for your rights? or will you give in like the rest of us passive taxpayers? Mudjack @ Mudcat's political forum...

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Fadac
Date: 19 May 99 - 03:42 PM

LEJ, Well, they DO have special lisc. for buses and school bus drivers. Still school busses have gone off roads and killed kids. Other school busses have interfaced with trains.

I have no problem with taking proper training for gun ownership. But after the training, I want the privlage of carring a handgun if I feel the need to do so. Perhaps if there were more armed citizens, there would be less shootings in places like MacDonalds, etc. Perhaps even less muggings. What do you suppose muggers would do if they knew about 1/4 of the people on the street were armed and trained to use said arms? How many house break ins are there in Swistzerland?

I had to take special training to fly an airplane. I wish drivers (cars) had to take the same training that aircraft pilots do. Let's see, every two years you have to hire a driving instructor, to make sure that you know how to change lanes, park, etc. I have to do that with my pilots lisc.

Getting all excited when ever the word 'gun' is mentioned isn't going to help. Unless you just want high blood pressure.

BTW, a few years ago, this nut took an AK47 and shot up some school children. So why did some judge up in Oregon let this piece of trash out of jail. They had him in jail, and could have put him away for years and years. Instead they just let him go, and told him. "By the way, if you feel like comming back, we will put you on trial". (side note to that, a woman was driving drunk and hit a group of five or six kids waiting for their school bus. She killed a couple of the kids. The cops wern't even sure if they were going to charger her with more than invountary manslaughter! The news media dropped it like a hot potato, and pushed the gun story.

So everybody decided to get rid of assult guns (What ever that is, nobody can seem to define it.) instead of doing anything to the dumb judge that let this dirtbag go.

So lets register judges!

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Uilleand
Date: 19 May 99 - 03:16 PM

Help! I'm really trying to understand this. It is not meant as an attack on your convictions, Margarita. But could you be more specific about why you feel you need to be prepared and exactly what you are prepared for, what you would do in such a situation?

I find it very disconcerting that one would compare the use of any type of weapon with that of an umbrella. But, I really want to understand. If it's not fear that is the motivator, then what is?

Thanks for broadening my insight. (This is not meant ironically in any way, I'm very serious.)

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: LEJ
Date: 19 May 99 - 03:11 PM

Let's see. If 13 kids were killed on a bus in Colorado what would we do- Probably make sure that the bus was licensed and inspected (shouldn't do that with guns though,correct), we'd make sure that the driver was a responsible individual, including licensing and proper background checks(not a good idea with guns ,right), heck, we might even decide that that kind of bus was inherently dangerous and should be banned ( not a valid argument against an AK47, I see).

You know what, Fadac, if we gave guns and gunowners the same supervision we give buses and busdrivers, I think we would all be better off.

LEJ

Subject: RE: Guns, & death in general.
From: Fadac
Date: 19 May 99 - 02:09 PM

Another 0.02 worth. Gun control, well if it worked I'd be for it. The sad truth is that it just dosn't work. Oh, the Nazi's had gun control, as did the Soviets, did it work... not really. Criminal control, that has a better chance of working. Use a gun (leathal force) in a crime and get 20 years attached to your sentince. That would at least put a 20 year pause in repeat crimes.

I feel for the kids in Colorado, but would we feel any better if they were killed in a bus? In that case, if I want to do someone in, just run them down with a car. (oops!) That is OK? I feel killing is killing, what ever the means. 50,000 dead in car wrecks, 350,000 a year from smoking, another 100,000 from booze. All preventable, all for no reason.

Lets write a sad song, and get on with living life. Fadac, X army, two tours in Viet Nam, current gun owner.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Margo
Date: 19 May 99 - 01:12 PM

Oh no, Tomtom and Kat. I do not own a gun because of fear. It's a practical matter of preparedness. Looking at what can and does happen in today's society with people being attacked in their own homes, we have taken a precaution by having guns in the house.

I never think about them. I never think about being attacked. I don't fear attack. I am prepared as best I can be to defend my family against whatever. Our guns are LOCKED UP, even thought they are in the ready position (cocked and locked).

It's no different to me than seeing the clouds gathering on the horizon, and grabbing an umbrella before I go out just in case it rains. Likewise, even though I own an umbrella, I don't fear getting rained upon.

Alex, the best way to avoid these threads is to not open them up. But you are drawn to them anyway. Why? You said, " I reiterate my statements that this should be a sharing site for folk music enthusiasts", yet you yourself join in the reading and posting to the non-music threads. Why? Don't you think that avoiding them might be more consistant with what you believe ought to be going on here? Just curious.

Margarita