BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech

Subject: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 01:39 PM

I didn't see it broadcast, but have read the entire text. First impression, he hit it out of the ballpark. It is a great speech.

That said, it will also be dissected, ad nauseum.

Did it do the job of containing the damage?

Only time will tell.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 01:45 PM

Blicky?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Voice of Truth
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 01:46 PM

The damage is only starting. His speech may be well reasoned, but his actions are not so easily defended. Obama should have left the church after those heinous remarks after 9-11.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 01:49 PM

Clarification please ...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 01:52 PM

From what I've heard through the media, the speech was much better written than it was, delivered.
The question of why he would choose to belong to such a church has not been answered.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 01:53 PM

Oh jeez, I should have linked to it. I think I read the text at WSJ, but now it isn't coming up.

I'm at work, rushing through lunch, and don't have time to hunt it down right now.

Hopefully, someone will come along w/one soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:00 PM

Transcript of speech here

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:03 PM

You can watch it here. Or read it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/

Its a great speech.

He did the right thing in remaining pastor Wright's friend. Since Wright had retired by te time the words were aired. He shouldn't have to switch churches.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:04 PM

He did hit it out of the ballpark.

Excellent speech.

He spoke from the heart, no packaging, no politiking .... he laid it all down the line and not only revealed himself, but also revealed all Americans.

He had to come out and do this speech ... he shone.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:04 PM

My impression of the delivery is that it was bloody marvelous--he was calm, firm, clear, and warm, balanced presentation with style.

I'd call it a home run if it weren't for all the monkeys in umpire suits running around. :D Seriously he did an excellent job of framing the issue. Jim Lad, if you would listen to the speech, and read the Salon article I linked to in the other thread, your question would be answered; but I suspect you don't want an answer, really.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:05 PM

this might be useful

I think this is this is the one though

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:08 PM

I'm glad to see thatt my understanding of his whole approach seems to be pretty accurate.

I don't think it's because I'm in any way particularly insightful.

I think he's an honest open trustworthy guy with a gift for communication.

You yanks'll be lucky (as will the rest of us) if you get him for prez!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:08 PM

I agree it was a great speech, but I disagree vociferously there wasn't any politicking in it. There was a lot of that, and we can't lose sight of why he gave the speech to begin with--and to whom he needed to address it.

That last part especially, I'm not sure he really reached out to them.

But he likely won't lose his core support. I say likely, because a lot of people, my husband included, haven't heard, seen, or read anything yet about the You Tube videos, the controversy, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:08 PM

Text Only: A Great Speech

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:08 PM

The microphones sucked, too much thumping. Otherwise it was brilliant.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:11 PM

The WHOLE speech is on MSNBC.com.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:11 PM

"I think he's an honest open trustworthy guy with a gift for communication."
Yup!
I'd buy a car from him.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:16 PM

Here's the speech on YouTube - "We the people"

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:19 PM

I disagree about him being honest or trustworthy. His record, right up until last Friday, showed he is still hiding a lot, evasive, and duplicitous. He disclosed a WHOLE lot of stuff to the Chicago Tribune and Chicago Sun Times editiorial board, but it took the Wright debacle to force him to do it, under duress (and protesting too, of course, that they weren't making Clinton disclose).

I find him especially offensive in the ways he accuses the Clintons of playing the race card, being unfair, etc when all they are doing is conducting a pretty mild (especially for the Clintons) and above board election campaign. He plays the victim card too well, IMO.

The end result is, again ONLY IMO, that Obama and his supporters are the ones causing terrible divisions within the Democratic party, with their take no prisoners approach to the race.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:26 PM

Well, Iguess we have differing opinions. I find him to be FAR less duplicitous than any of the other viable candidates, far less evasive, and seriosuly interested in transparency. I think that interest is made more difficult by the slangers and defamers who make their living sreaming out controversial epithets on talk shows, for example. It is plain from listening to him thathe is cleaving to a standard of reason and unification where he can, while trying to deal with the usual attack mentality of some of the louder media, which is not an easy balance to strike. Bear in mind, he is running for an election, here; I think faulting him for political awareness in his public speeches is a bit much under the circumstances.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:26 PM

>>> he accuses the Clintons of playing the race card, being unfair, etc <<<

Can you please point to one example of him doing that?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:40 PM

I have to confess I feel a little sad and fatalistic about all this.

I think it took guts for him to be so honest about his relationship with his pastor on the one hand, and so willing to act as witness to his good character on the other.

(Sorry guestguest, yet again your assertions have little in common with what is actually going on)

I fear that he may drown in this one.

I fear that America won't have listened to his speech.

He's demonstrating complete faith in the American people to be able to rise above this with him and throwing himself on their mercy.

I don't know if America is ready to invest that faith in him.

If he does go on to win it will cetainly say something very good about America.

I think that's what he's doing. Giving "y'all" an opportunity to be great - bit like the whole Mandela campaign against poverty.

Oscar Wilde said "we are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars"

I hope that Obama is right and that America is sick of being in the gutter.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:44 PM

Guestguest,

you say "IMO" meaning "In my opinion".

But you are not offering an opinion.

You are making a supposedly factual assertion.

And I'm afraid to say, it is, in fact, completely fictional.

Why not offer an opinion on the facts - ie the things that have really happened, not the things that you are magicking up from your fabulous imagination.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:49 PM

I also see more "take no prisoners" approach in the Clinton camp's shenanigans than I do in Barack's campaign. From that perspective, it sounds like arm-waving hysterics.

In a recent post of KD'sthere was a goo d summation of such divisive tactics, quoted by Azizi:

"1. the muslim smear emails circulated by Iowa staffers
2. the "cocaine" issue raised by Billy Shaheen, Mark Penn and Bob Johnson
3. the false email sent around in NH concerning Obama's pro-choice record
4. Bill Clinton's "roll of the dice" and "fairytale" comments in NH and the subsequent dismissal of Obama's position on Iraq
5. Bill Clinton's South Carolina statements and the misquoting of Obama's statement about Reagan and ideas
6. the first negative ad (radio) in South Carolina regarding the "Reagan / ideas" statement
7. mailers in MA mispresenting Obama's Healthcare plan
8. the first negative (TV) ad in Wisconsin regarding "refusal to debate"
9. the 3 AM ad
10. the suggestion that John McCain has passed the commander-in-chief threshold but Obama hasn't
11. the claim that Obama's entire campaign is based on one speech
12. the qualified answer to Steve Croft's "Is Obama a muslim" question
13. the fake AP news story ad regarding Obama and Naftagate run in Ohio
14. Penn claiming that Obama is unelectable

The attacks range from the morally reprehensible to me (nos. 3 and 12), to the intellectually offensive (5, 6, and 11) to the ridiculous (14) to the "politics as usual" (the rest of them). However, hard to argue that Clinton has not been attacking negatively".

-KD, on March 17th, 2008 at 7:39 am."


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:55 PM

Overall, I'd say the speech was better than the average presentation by a politician or would-be politician. I wonder who wrote it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:57 PM

What I want to know now is - How much was this Rev Wright payed to betray Obama.

This was the only way to knock Obama down - paint him as a black rights activist (as all black politicians obviously are).

What a complete Idiot.

I hope he's sitting somewhere thinking to himself "I fucked up the chances of the first black presidential hopeful in American history" and feeling absolutely humiliated and stupid and pathetic and like the scum of the earth.

What a complete Prick!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 03:00 PM

The consequences of this will show how little or how much it takes to tap into America's latent racial insecurity.

Go on America.

Show your character! Don't fall for this crap!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 03:07 PM

The same GUEST,guest at 18 Mar 08 - 01:39 PM and at 18 Mar 08 - 02:19 PM ?

I'd agree with the earlier post's "...he hit it out of the ballpark. It is a great speech", but not with the later one's "evasive, and duplicitous."

Very impressive indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 03:28 PM

"Obama's performance today makes it brilliantly clear why he is twice the candidate that either Hillary or John is. It was balanced, well-thought-out, and fair. There was no hatred in it (unlike the arm-waving frothing of some of the above commentators). It was insightful, firm, and beautifully delivered. I would suggest that those who are so deeply embroiled in rancor and upset about Mister Wright's orations step back and try to remember what it is you want for the nation, as a leader.

You will not find a better man than Barack Obama anywhere in the pool, and would be wise to look at that clearly and plainly. He's the best we have anywhere in the hustings. One reason? He refuses to jump around because the media has started some sort of firestorm about something. He is keeping his eye on our main chance for reversing the degradation of this nation suffered under the current administration and its anti-intellectual forebears. For the love of decency, and the repair of AMerican dignity, he should be elected without further ado."

Boston Globe Blog

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 03:28 PM

Seems like a darned good speech to me.

We shall see now if Americans in general can rise above the tendency to be mean, petty, parochial, judgemental, and paranoid. We shall see if they can rise above the tendency to demand far greater perfection of their prospective leaders than they would ever dream of demanding of themselves.

Got my fingers crossed on that.

I still believe miracles are possible. They're just not all that common.

I think that the political process forces all its participants to be duplicitious to some extent. They can't escape the perverting effects of the political process and its demands upon them. If any candidate were to be wholly truthful and were to say directly all that he really thinks, he would not have a chance in hell of getting elected, because the great majority people cannot bear to hear the truth in its entirety.

Such a person would be utterly crucified by the national media and the entire system. He would be in the same spot that Jesus was in 2,000 years ago...headed for an early and violent death.

Someone who tells the whole truth without fear to this society is first laughed at, then ridiculed, then attacked full force with every procedural means at hand, and then? Well, ways are found to silence them.

Obama is certainly not going to tell the whole truth or express everything as he truly sees it. He will be duplicitious to some extent. They all will. Their political survival depends upon that. They cannot do otherwise. They must walk the walk that is expected of them.

Given that, I think he has made a very good speech and probably done the best he could under the circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 04:02 PM

"I wonder who wrote it."
Goes to the point I was making earlier.
If he wrote it but didn't do such a great job of delivering it, that's fine.
If it turns out to be someone Else's work then that's a different kettle of fish.
Mind you. No-one else has been given the same opportunity to answer campaign smears. Five days to write a speech and free airtime is a lot to give any candidate who is supposed to react quickly under pressure.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 04:07 PM

HE writes all his own speeches; a fact that has been frequently reported. Why try to get all underhanded about it? ANd his delivery was excellent.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 04:14 PM

Art:

The whole point about Barack Obama is that he embodies the difference you say characterizes his speech; that's what wins people to his camp.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 04:17 PM

...headed for an early and violent death.   There is always that possibility.
...........................................

If he wrote it but didn't do such a great job of delivering it, that's fine.

I'd have said his delivery was up to the quality of the speech. Or put it another way, the speech was up to the quality of the delivery.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 04:24 PM

He nailed it.



but


CNN is sadly cherry picking remarks out of context.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Beer
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 04:35 PM

Typical for CNN.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 04:41 PM

The mass media always do that, resulting in most politicians just talking in sound bites.

It's impressive that Obama has insisted on making coherent speeches that do not insult the public. Fortunately, thanks to the Internet, anybody who is interested in listening to them can do so. The broadcasters can cherry pick, but they have at last lost the power to suppress everything they choose to ignore.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 04:43 PM

I don't even begin to understand people - who don't even have a dog in the hunt - that take it upon themselves to belittle, defame and dismiss someone that others are drawn to, are interested in sharing views of that person and want to in the process get to know that person better.

Obviously being a good musician does not equate with having good judgment. I have always thought I would love to have musicians as neighbors. I'm no longer so sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 04:44 PM

I'm only going by what one political commentator has said.
Amos: Stop attacking everyone who disagrees with you. It's driving people away.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 04:51 PM

I just finished listening and I loved the speech. Backed into a corner where he has a choice between A or B, he pick M. I have to respect that!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 04:53 PM

I was also wondering if the enthusiastic "Guest-Guest" is the same "Guest-Guest" who is generally critical of Obama. They could be the same. One can be impressed with the strength of the speech for dealing with the present crisis ("Great speech!"), and still doubt whether the man can achieve anything significant. Time for GiGi to become a Mudcat member before she's lost in identity theft. Just a thought!

I certainly encourage everyone to read it through carefully.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 05:00 PM

I'm only going by what one political commentator has said.

You can find political commentators who say just about anything. We pick out the ones to credit either on the basis that they have a particularly good record of getting it right, or that they have said something we agree with.
........................
The evidence appears to be that Obama is a pretty good writer, quite capable of writing a good speech. What politicians generally do in campaigns is to have writers who draft speeches based on their general style of speaking and their known policy positions, with the expectation being that these will be used as the basis for the speech, adjusted and interpreted by the person delivering it.

In the case of this speech it would seem more likely that Obama would in fact have written it himself, probably running it over with colleagues before delivering it.

This is a bit of a circus, but that doesn't mean the acrobats aren't doing it for real.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 05:04 PM

After that particular speech, I suspect the next shoe to drop will be that of John Edwards.

Charley, I think you can be critical of people sometimes because you expect more from them. I think Obama might have done a bit more with that speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 05:14 PM

The speech spoke volumes about Obama's courage and strength...

It reminded me of listening to Dr. King...

The P-Vine, who is generally purdy much apolitical, sat down to listen to just a couple minutes of it but ended up sitting there for the entire speech and I could tell that she was close to tears during some parts of it...

So was I...

People don't come around like Obama too often... Not to mean he is a god or anything... But, IMO, a gift from God...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 05:17 PM

I think the problem with tthat speech as a political tool was that it didn't get to the "unity" aspect quickly enough.

It built up to it well for those who have the patience to listen to that kind of thing, but for many people, wanting the meat and potatoes there and then, it may have taken too long to get of the ground with the result that people have lost concentration when the important stuff came through.

The Battle cry was "change" - now it's "unity".

Genius in terms of taking the baton and running with it. Taking the worst of the situation and using it to his advantage.

Is it clear enough and resounding enough to do the job.

... hmmm ... I just can't call it either way ...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 05:19 PM

Just for the record, I'm all for Unity!

That would be one hell of a change!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 05:30 PM

Mind you. No-one else has been given the same opportunity to answer campaign smears. Five days to write a speech and free airtime is a lot to give any candidate who is supposed to react quickly under pressure.

And just how is anyone stopping the other candidates from doing this? He had made statements about the issue earlier, he just chose to make a comprehensive speech about it rather than relying on sound bytes alone. Maybe if others tried this they would find that their speech would be aired as well. And the fact that he took a few days to craft the speech is not a problem in my book. Given the way these things are sliced and diced it makes much more sense than making a fairly lengthy speech about a sensitive issue off-the-cuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: number 6
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 05:40 PM

"The Battle cry was "change" - now it's "unity"."

Change through unity (that's the message) ..... the only way change can be accomplished.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 05:46 PM

The media cherry picks and deals in sound bites partly because it's easier and quicker for them to do that than it would be dealing comprehensively with something...and partly because they figure the public has too short an attention span to pay attention to anything comprehensive.

Unfortunately, though, the more they do that...the more they accustom people to thinking in terms of a few brief sound bites...the more it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy to say that the public doesn't have the attention span to pay attention to anything more than a brief sound bite.

If you feed people a diet of spam long enough, after awhile they tend to forget they ever ate anything else, right?

Musicians, Ebbie, are much like other people, with the same character flaws and shortcomings...except in this one respect. They're great to play music with! ;-) Keep this in mind, and you won't be so disillusioned about them. I have long had to come to terms with the fact that my fellow musicians aren't necessarily any nicer or kinder or wiser than most folks around me are.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 05:46 PM

The high pitched voice of the conservative talking head on CNN was condemning Obama for not delivering a speech as effective as Dr. Martin Luther King's jail house speech. HAHAHAHA The best he could do was nay say anything the liberal black lady would say.

Is Barak guilty of knowing a passionate populist pastor of a predominately white church, HELL YES.

I however believe that Barak is guilty of not being a preacher and speaking in eloquent measured secular tones of civility and reason, all served upon a healthy bed of truth.

Trying to make Barak answer for the pent up hatred of the early black activists is wrong. Barak is the new voice of minority America that has sought after and achieved excellence.



Lets not be tempted into playing the conservative game of gotcha.
We could easily be tempted to accuse various people of knowing pastors like Falwell who said some pretty stupid and inflamatory shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 06:04 PM

Hey Bill,

"Change through Unity"

and Unity through change ...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 06:12 PM

I don't know much about it but I am sure I read in the economist that Ted Sorensen of JFK fame was assisting Obama's speechwriting team.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 06:56 PM

Here's One


"We're looking for a speechwriter," Gibbs told Favreau.

"Why?" asked Favreau.

"If there were 48 hours in a day, we wouldn't need a speechwriter," Gibbs said. "But he needs to work with someone."

"Favreau met with Obama and Gibbs in the Senate cafeteria in the Dirksen office building on Capitol Hill on the senator's first day in his new job. Obama didn't want to know about Favreau's résumé, but he did want to know about his motivation.

"What got you into politics, what got you interested?" he asked.

"Favreau told him about the social service project he started in Worcester, defending the legal rights of welfare recipients as the state tried to move people off the rolls and into work.

"What is your theory of speechwriting?" Obama asked.

"I have no theory," admitted Favreau. "But when I saw you at the convention, you basically told a story about your life from beginning to end, and it was a story that fit with the larger American narrative. People applauded not because you wrote an applause line but because you touched something in the party and the country that people had not touched before. Democrats haven't had that in a long time."

"The pitch worked. Favreau and Obama rapidly found a relatively direct way to work with each other. "What I do is to sit with him for half an hour," Favreau explains. "He talks and I type everything he says. I reshape it, I write. He writes, he reshapes it. That's how we get a finished product.

"It's a great way to write speeches. A lot of times, you write something, you hand it in, it gets hacked by advisers, it gets to the candidate and then it gets sent back to you. This is a much more intimate way to work."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: John Hardly
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 07:09 PM

It was the best political speech I've heard in my lifetime. It was an "I Have A Dream" speech to a new generation.

It was Bob Dylan's "...so get out of the new world if you can't lend a hand, for the times, they are a'changin'"

It didn't "contain damage". It changed the whole landscape. It was the very definition of making a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 07:12 PM

Or just getting some silk instead of messing about with the sows ear in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Cruiser
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 07:25 PM

Mr. Obama's excellent speech displayed near perfect elocution, personal demeanor, and poise.

Perhaps one day soon the USA will have a president who *is* smarter than a 5th grader.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 07:29 PM

Perhaps one day soon the USA will have a president who *is* smarter than a 5th grader. I think that will be true whoever wins the election. Quite a dramatic change from the past eight years.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 07:51 PM

As an Englishman who loves his language, I've not heard a better or more literate speech for 40 years. he speaks better English than any English politician since Churchill.
As to the substance, if he means it, he will undoubtedly be killed by the vested interests he promises to take on. We've seen it before.
I hope I'm wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 08:33 PM

Whether you support the man's campaign or not, you must admit it is a brilliant, stirring speech ...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Stranger
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 08:35 PM

Obama sold out his grandmother in his speech by comparing her to Jeremiah(was a bullfrog) Wright. The woman who loved him and took care of him as he says got a bad rap. He is great at identifying problems but has no real solutions.

He really did not denounce the Reverend for his remarks like I really thought he would, just " he is a part of who I am."

This is such complete BS. You do not associate yourself with someone of such strong political convictions for 20 years and say it has no impact. All Obama needs now is a top hat and cane to go with his tap dance.

While Obama is focusing on this, McCain is looking more and more like the Commander in Chief. People are going to have a very tough time picturing Obama in that role. You ARE judged by the company you keep. Just wait. The Rezko trial hasn't even kicked in yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:03 PM

No matter how truthful and eloquent Barak is, this invented pastor scandal will be the dividing line between racist church bigots and fair minded human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Stranger
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:07 PM

Invented? The church is selling his videos.

If you think this pastor, Obama's friend, mentor, spiritual leader for 20 years represents fair minded human beings.

The racism is coming from this candidate and his associates.

The next thing you smell is the burnt toast that Obama has become.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Peace
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:11 PM

Only in your mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Stranger
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:14 PM

The pols say free fall. The speech will not save him. The press and media will abandon him. BTW, it's not your country anyway and you have no vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Peace
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:18 PM

I know. But then you are a voice from the hat rack and have no credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Peace
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:26 PM

The polls on Friday will show where things are at. Until then, it's all speculation. (Assuming there will be poll results by Friday.)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Stranger
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:35 PM

"I know. But then you are a voice from the hat rack and have no credibility."

I am just like the man on the street, the everyman, the stranger. I have all the credibility to make the real difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Peace
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:40 PM

Maybe you do--and maybe you don't. We tend to see things from our narrow perspectives. ALL of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:40 PM

He came off as wise. I don't know if that's tolerable for a politician, but not letting others provoke an expected reaction is wise. Facing the issue with tolerance and understanding is wise. He's put himself above some others by not replying in kind, and I believe he did something great today, no matter what the impact on the race will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:47 PM

"not replying in kind" is probably more useful in Mudcat thread as well.

Thanks, Jeri, for reminding me.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:50 PM

Stranger,

I do not think you are meet for the voice of everyman. I think, rather, you are the voice of the sardonic minority and the embittered few.

But, ya know, maybe that's just me.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:53 PM

If he can be half as good a leader as a speech maker, we will ALL win. I was quite impressed.
He managed to deal with HARD issues about race in as civil and sane terms as I've heard any politician.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 10:10 PM

"You ARE judged by the company you keep."

Yikes. If you don't see me around Mudcat for awhile, um, don't take it personally ...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 10:17 PM

I am the only Guest Guest posting in this thread so far. The speech was really good, but I wouldn't put it anywhere near the best speeches of my lifetime.

One of the things I teach to the 4th - 6th grade kids in our elementary is great speeches. The source I use is americanrhetoric.com. You can go there and listen to Obama's 2004 speech to the Dem Nat'l Convention, and compare it to this one.

At any rate, I don't know why so many here think that, just because I don't support Obama, or even think he is a good guy, that I can't think he didn't give a good speech. WTF?

I'm perfectly capable of viewing people I don't admire fairly and objectively, as I think I'm doing in this instance.

Also, why do so many complain about journalists analyzing various parts of this speech? That is their job, people! No, I'm not talking Limbaugh and O'Reilly. I mean the journalists. It is their job to analyze the speech in terms of to whom Obama addressed in what parts, how effectively he did it, etc.

That said, after reading it a second time, it seems less impressive the second time around and on a closer reading.

Someone up the way here said he didn't get the message across to the people he needed to reach with this speech, and I agree with that completely on second reading.

Also, I honest to god don't know that this can stop the bleeding. His standing by Wright--I dunno. How the hell that is supposed to work w/general election voters who see those videos, I'll never know.

BTW, it would be shocking if Obama had penned that speech on his own. I have a sister-in-law who was communications director for Mondale's prez campaign. Some of us know better than to think that sort of silly stuff. That speech was vetted and vetted and vetted again by a team of writers, editors, you name it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Peace
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 10:27 PM

I agree the speech was vetted. Whether it undid the harm caused by Wright is another matter entirely. Obama had a tightrope to walk--he needs all the votes he can get, because the race with Hillary is a close one. She's gonna take Pennsylvania, no doubt. But the polls are up and down for both of them. I wish I could see what the Friday polls(assuming there are polls by Friday)--tell us, other than some company tool a poll. If it doesn't look good for him then, it really doesn't look good at all.

GG, if you had to pick ONE speech by an American, which would it be? (I am sincere in this request.) I've always been partial to the Gettysburg Address because of its brevity and intrinsic 'passion'. However, King's "I Have a Dream" is moving and imo a fine example of rhetoric meant to MOVE people.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 10:47 PM

According to Archie Bunker, JFK said "This country ain't gonna help nobody no more!".
The beauty of the speech rests firmly on the ears.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 10:52 PM

It is too difficult for me to pick just one, because different speeched work for the different occassions and purposes.

I tend towards the fiery radical, so one of my very favorite speeches is Malcolm X's "The Ballot or the Bullet" speech. For the sheer joy it gave me to hear it, at a concert by the band War--Richard Nixon's resignation speech--which I didn't hear a bit of after "I hereby resign..." because the auditorium exploded with cheers and dancing that lasted for over a half hour, until the band kicked in with the most fuckin' raucous version of "Cisco Kid" imaginable.

Far more than King's I Have a Dream speech, I think his anti-war speech that he gave just before he was assassinated is much, much more interesting. Shows how deep and complex a man he really was. The I Have a Dream speech is too preachy for my tastes.

One of the greatest speeches of my lifetime, I think, was Bobby Kennedy's heartbreaking, mostly spontaneous speech he gave the night King was killed.

Historic speeches--definitely Margaret Sanger's speech on birth control & La Follette's speech on free speech in wartime. I am very partial to the Gettysburg Address, but probably mostly because I was forced to memorize it in 4th grade. "Ain't I a Woman" by Sojourner Truth.

Jesse Jackson's 1988 convention speech.

But if I had to pick ONE speech by an American, it would be about nuclear weapons disarmament, and MAD. Given by a very dear friend, a South Dakota rancher by the name of Marv Kammerer. His ranch is adjacent to Ellsworth Air Force base, and he talks about a morning when all the B52s scrambled, and he was terrified that the base was being attacked.

He talked about where each member of his family was headed--away from him on to their business of the day. Which included his two youngest kids riding on horseback to school--still a one room schoolhouse, and the last in the county. Unbelievable speech. Better than anything any politician or activist I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot of 'em.

Marv was also a great singer of hymns. Coincidental? I dunno.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 11:06 PM

Stranger, You have NO credibility.

Because you said this....

>>McCain is looking more and more like the Commander in Chief.<<<

He's looking more and senile.

Check out who the WORST person is today.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/23699211#23699211

If people had had the balls to correct Bush we may not have gone to war in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Peace
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 11:06 PM

Thank you, GG. I too like (feel impassioned by) Malcolm X's in particular. If I may, have you encountered Helen Caldicott before? Because she could knock ya back when she talked about the nuclear issue. I think it was "If You Love This Planet" in which she gave a talk that brought tears to the eyes of a class I was in back in the 1980s--as a student.

I have to go for the evening and may be away for a few days.
I have reread many of your posts and I think I have been wrong about you. This is about as close as I ever get to an apolgy. I hope you accept it. If not, then at least we can talk about speeches, OK?

Keep well, J. You can be a dynamite thinker AND writer when you choose to. The fact that you piss me off on occasion may be because you have a way of getting my complacent ass out of the chair. LOL

Later, and thank you for answering my question.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Maryrrf
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 11:07 PM

I found Obama's speech refreshing and honest. I'll vote for whoever runs on the democratic ticket, but I hope it's Obama, and I hope he wins.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Beer
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 11:09 PM

Guest guest,
I'm lost for words. That was beautifully written. You have a hobby (probably not the correct term in this case.) that is truly unique and one which you truly enjoy. Thanks for sharing and thank you Peace for asking the question.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 11:13 PM

I second the motion -- that was a fine straight piece of dialogue. Thanks, you.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 11:46 PM

I've been impressed by Obama in general, but I was particularly impressed by this speech. The most important thing a President does is lead. I think we've forgotten that in recent years, because our Presidents have not been especially inspirational (or if they have, they've inspired in the wrong direction). Today Obama showed that what looked like a wound to his campaign was in fact a long-standing wound to America, and it was time to acknowledge its reality. He acknowledged both the pain of being an African American living in a society dominated by White privilege and also the pain of Whites who don't feel privileged. That's no small accomplishment.

I watched the webcasts of the story covering this on all three major networks, and was glad they covered the speech in some detail - even if the anchors were a bit boneheaded about it.

As for whether he should have left the church - if all my parishioners left my church every time I said something they disagreed with, there'd be few people left, and it would be boring besides. If clergy are to do our job, we have to challenge people - and that means saying things that are tough. Sometimes we might even be wrong.

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Janie
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 12:07 AM

I was pretty darn impressed. Only the very last part of it was what I would call a campaign address that was clearly a political campaign speech to say "Vote for Me."

In the FWIW department, listening to it with the ears of a social worker psychotherapist with a strong interest and background in sociology and social psychology, I found myself thinking - this is the voice of a person who has done their own inner work. This is a person with compassionate and insightful understanding. This is a person who accepts complexity. This is a person who has learned to listen to himself and others with what Theodore Reik called "the third ear." This is a person who sees the projections of others, names those projections, but does not condemn others for projection. There was no pandering in this speech. Pretty damn enlightened.

And somewhat risky. Read stranger's reactions and the risk is clear. I think it likely Obama is aware of it.

In this speech he talked down to no one and he dumbed down for no one. It was intelligent, insightful and articulate. While he may have had some help from some one for a turn of phrase, I don't think this is something that a 'speech writer' could or would come up with. It is too psychologically integrated. This is a person who strives to see what is with clear eyes, and invites others to see more clearly, if they will.

I came away with the impression that this a man with a long view who does not realistically expect that radical change would occur during his administration regarding most of the major issues this country and the world faces. He may be a man who thinks he can nudge the country in a better direction and help lay the groundwork to increase the likelihood the country would continue in that direction once he was out of power. My concern is that I think we may be out of time. However much I think rapid and radical change is needed, to expect it is completely unrealistic and irrational. Neither he or Clinton are the least bit radical, or the least bit to the left.

It has occurred to me that the notions of 'right' and 'left' may no longer be valid or workable paradigms, as married to them as I am. I may be stuck in a paradigm that no longer offers much. I'm realizing I'm a bit of a dinosaur.

He ain't a saint. He's a politician. But I think his campaign so far has indicated that there are limits to how far he is willing to compromise his integrity to be elected.

I'm still not entirely sure, but it is likely I will vote for him in the North Carolina primary. I've been leaning more and more his way, especially since Clinton has defaulted to standard nastiness beginning with the run-up to the early March primaries.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 12:12 AM

Thanks for that, Dan.

I'm glad someone else pointed out how NON-presidential McCain is looking these days. I don't think he knows which way is up from day to day and could also be a loose cannon.

I am grateful for whatever inspired Obama's speech and for his incredible ability to deliver it. Now, we need to get him into the White House and start the healing...he has already given us so much hope for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 12:21 AM

Good word, Janie, integrity.

McCain has none. He's just another dumb puppet.

Hillary is too power hungry to care about integrity and has already shown us that she supported her husband when he lost his.

Obama? We will have to see. I want to believe that he does have integrity. In fact, I think that's what most Democrats are hoping for.

I'm not sure if integrity matters to Republicans. It seems they accept the fact that their guys will say or do whatever to gain and maintain power. Integrity is 'old hat' for many. Some people respect wealth, power and authority much more than integrity.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 12:32 AM

I guess some folks think that addressing the electorate as if they were adults, capable of thought, is somehow suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Janie
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 12:36 AM

It ain't suspect, Dick - but it may be politically risky.
Which is not to say the risk is best not taken.

Time will tell.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:03 AM

Here's a comment that sums up much of my reaction to Obama's speech on race:

"...There is an intense and powerful force lying waiting in America....it is the longing for true leadership that addresses the basic goodness of the American spirit, pays tribute to the better part of ourselves as partners in a great adventure, and calls upon us to join together and give of ourselves for the common good.

The candidate who strikes that chord...who recognizes and encourages and calls upon Americans to use their strengths to solve problems instead of stoking their fears to divide us, can lead us in a new direction and away from the disaster we are now facing -- militarily, economically, ecologically, spiritually and ethically.

That candidate spoke today...from the heart....and to the heart".

Wow....just WOW!!!!"


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/3/18/201946/503/491/479543
Watching Obama with Strangers
by socratic
Tue Mar 18, 2008

-snip-

But also, as I listened to a talk show host read portions of the speech as I was driving yesterday, the part that I had to struggle not to cry over was Obama's comments about how the experiences of Black people growing up in the 1950s and 1960s shaped them to perhaps expect racism from others, and that Reverend Wright failed to realize that Americans can change.

That struck a chord with me, since I'm of that generation of Black folks and as I admit that I have been surprised and pleased at the level of White support for Barack Obama in "White states", and particularly among White people who thirty and under. That support, and my experiences on Mudcat-among other things-cause me to have faith that maybe things can and will change. Maybe there are enough people in the United States who have come to realize that race isn't all that important-or at least-shouldn't be all that important.

Thanks to Barack Obama I now have more hope that there will come a time when people in the United States and elsewhere will consider race as just a valueless descriptor. I don't think I'll be alive when that time comes, but thanks to the words and actions and role modeling of Barack Obama, we are moving closer to that time.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:12 AM

Treating people with respect - and I think that was what was involved making this speech - always carries a risk.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 08:27 AM

Treating each other with respect also has payoffs, in most cases. LOL

Gigi-

Thanks for clarifying that no one has stooped (or reached) to steal your "guest" identity. I did wonder above, and in another thread, but I also suggested that you were fully capable of admiring a speech while maintaining reservations about the speaker.

The Ashley campaign volunteer story was part of the speech that nailed me. I'm a sucker for a good story and I still have a lump in my throat the morning after. Here it is again:

Anyway, Ashley finishes her story and then goes around the room and asks everyone else why they're supporting the campaign. They all have different stories and reasons. Many bring up a specific issue. And finally they come to this elderly black man who's been sitting there quietly the entire time. And Ashley asks him why he's there. And he does not bring up a specific issue. He does not say health care or the economy. He does not say education or the war.   He does not say that he was there because of Barack Obama. He simply says to everyone in the room, "I am here because of Ashley."

"I'm here because of Ashley." By itself, that single moment of recognition between that young white girl and that old black man is not enough. It is not enough to give health care to the sick, or jobs to the jobless, or education to our children.

Not enough, indeed! But what Obama's trying to do and how he's trying to do it is very important.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:24 AM

On a day when Obama was looking and sounding like the intellegent man that he is the Guy that GUEST, Starnger said was looking more and more like a Commander in Chief was in in Iraq proclainming, not once but 3 times" that al-Qeada was training in Iran until he buddy, Joe Lieberman, hiterally grabbed him by the arm and pulled him away from the microphone and whispered in his ear somwthing to the effect that McWar was confused and should stop saying dumbass stuff...

Some Commander in Chief ya' got there, stranger...

...but good handle 'cause yer observations do indeed seem very strange...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:54 AM

The speech is here if you have not seen the actual presentation. Not to be missed.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 10:11 AM

The P-Vine asked me this morning if I thought the speech was heard by the Clinton Democrats...

I really don't know... Guess we won't know until the Pennsylvania prinmary where there are a lotta white folks making under $50K...

All I do know, is that I've been in the white equivalents to Obama's "barber shop" or "beauty salons" and it would be hard for me to see these folks taking to Obama's speech mainly 'cause many of them are a dumb as a box of creek rocks...

But I don't know???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Peace
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 10:16 AM

It's not good to use creek rocks as the base for camp fires because the water in them boils, expands and cracks the rocks. Something else I learned the hard way.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 10:24 AM

Is it time for him to address the issue of reparations for slavery?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Peace
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 10:25 AM

At times one bites one's tongue--until the BLOOD GUSHES!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 10:36 AM

Rig:

I think that qualifies as not quite understanding what was said.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 10:46 AM

I say invented because people like stranger guest are clutching the pastor as virtual evidence of something akin to satan worshiping treason.

I say invented because no one on the right is willing to take PERSONAL respondsibility for the foolish comments by Robertson Falwell, Haggert, Earnest Angely, child raping priests and other extreme morons.

Of course stranger may not know he is voting and advocating against his own best interests but who ways people have to be rational.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 10:52 AM

I'm thinking that the Clinton Campaign is envious that this speech has attracted so much "free" media attention, and that Obama was both able to respond to accusations and stay on message.

However, it still will be tough for the Obama Campaign to win Pennsylvania. If they do, it's all over for Clinton. If Clinton wins the state 60/40 Obama is still in play with an overall lead.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 11:22 AM

I was impressed for the same reasons as others. I was also impressed because I've lived and worked in places where I was in the minority. When people find out you'll listen and not automatically close your ears, they'll talk. When you have one co-worker whom you trust and who trusts you, and he lets his friends know you're OK, they'll be themselves around you.

The barber shops/beauty parlor comment is spot on. You take Edwards' two Amercas and split them again by race. One example: I watched the verdict in the OJ trial, and most of the folks watching cheered. Some of those cheering were 100% sure he'd been guilty.

You can argue the rights and wrongs of that all day long, but that's not what the cheering was about. There were people who felt like they were so shut out of society, so ignored and so scapegoated that they were just happy to see ONE brother get over. I could have reacted. I could have argued that it wasn't fair, but how do you argue about fairness with somebody who feels like that concept has never applied to how they were treated. When all of their lives, they've seen the cops and the ambulances avoid their section of town and watched as one Black guy after another was convicted on trumped up charges and handed disproportionate sentences.

Everyone who's now thinking these things aren't true and that feeling of being screwed is just wrong, keep in mind we're talking about public opinion. In the realm of public opinion, perception equals reality.

We have problems we can't fix with one election, but when change is something that has to be enforced, it has to come from the top down. The 'Man' has to be someone people believe will listen to them because that's where it starts to turn around, with the perception that someone cares.

If Obama can get folks talking to one another and trusting that the other guys will listen, it would be a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 12:25 PM

Here's an excerpt from a dailykos diary about the tremendous number of people who have watched Obama's speech about race:

Over 1.25 million views on YouTube in just 22 hours. And growing.
by JedReport

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/3/19/84344/7554/192/479826

Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 05:59:46 AM PDT

"Update @ 8am: Now up to 1.27 million -- about 250,000 in the last 3 hours or so.

Let me give you some perspective on just how big a hit Barack Obama's "A More Perfect Union" was: in its first 19 hours on YouTube, it had been played three times as often as the most viewed clip on John McCain's channel -- and had received 170,000 more views than the most viewed clip on Hillary Clinton's channel.

By mid-day, "A More Perfect Union" will almost certainly have been watched more times in 36 hours than than the Clinton clip (her 3am ad) and the McCain clip (Bill Clinton praising his political skills) -- combined. Together, those two clips have been on YouTube for just a touch longer than 19 hours. (Clinton's two weeks, McCain's three months.)"...

-snip-

The diarist explained that he arrived at these numbers by totalling the numbers for two YouTube videos of Obama speech on race.

But, in addition to those numbers, videos of that speech are also available on other Internet sites such as CNN, which significantly raise the total numbers of folks who have watched that video.

The fact is that the video of Obama's speech about race has rapidly gone viral-faster and with greater numbers than any other political video thus far ["gone viral" means that Internet users have rapidly talked up, forwarded a video link to, and otherwise spread information about this video to other Internet users].

And I definitely believe that's a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 01:09 PM

Guest,Stranger chided Peace with the "This isn't your country" card. Well Stranger, it is MY country and the only way I can see that you are representative of it is in the grating arrogance that has made this country so disliked around the world. Since everything "the worlds only superpower" does effects everyone in the world from perpetrating immoral, misguided preemptive wars to refusing the Kyoto Accords, everyone in the world is more than welcome to their opinion of it. Especially our loyal friends to the north.
   I try to not blame everyone who voted for Bush for the unnecessary deaths of 4000 Americans including the children of friends and neighbors and the deaths of countless thousands of Iraqis. Maybe they truly were misled by the Republican propaganda machine. But, knowing what we know about McCain's "100 years in Iraq", how much of the responsibility will you, Stranger, accept for those thousands who will continue to die should McCain prevail in November.

"I think that the political process forces all its participants to be duplicitious to some extent. They can't escape the perverting effects of the political process and its demands upon them. If any candidate were to be wholly truthful and were to say directly all that he really thinks, he would not have a chance in hell of getting elected, because the great majority people cannot bear to hear the truth in its entirety."
    No truer words on American politics were ever typed Little Hawk.
Of course Guest,Stranger would say this isn't your country but I for one welcome the objective, astute analysis of U.S. politics you have always provided.
    Doesn't it seem like Mr. Obama has received much more flack for statements his preacher made than the Republicans ever have for being so cozy with such intolerant religious institutions as Bob Jones University. And does anyone remember a little flare up back in the 70s concerning Jimmy Carter's hometown church being segregated. I'm a bit vague in my memory of that particular incident.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jim Lad
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 02:10 PM

Are you accepting opposing views yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 02:18 PM

For those who are getting sick of Hillary supporters saying Obama talks about generalities and no position specifics click here.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 02:19 PM

First off, someone I undoubtedly pissed off saying something or another, was using the log-in "Guest Guest" in another thread this week. C'est la vie. I don't care.

Second, again, this was a terrific speech, if you are a fan of Obama's. If you aren't, it didn't move you the way it moved his supporters, who are apparently desiring a "national discussion" about race, now? That won't get you very far, though.

Why?

Because Obama only gave this speech because he had to, under duress, to save his candidacy. Don't forget that for one second, because there are so many people he needed to "get it" that one speech would never do it. Ever. No matter how good it is. Some people heard "god damn America" and they will simply not go any further than that w/Obama.

The Reuters/Zogby poll out today is bad news for BOTH Dems. In a poll of likely general election voters, McCain is ahead of Obama by 46%-40% and ahead of Clinton 48%-40%.

From Reuters:

Obama's lead over Clinton narrows: Reuters poll
Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:35pm EDT

By Steve Holland

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Democrat Barack Obama's big national lead over Hillary Clinton has all but evaporated in the U.S. presidential race, and both Democrats trail Republican John McCain, according a Reuters/Zogby poll released on Wednesday.

(...)

Obama gave a speech on Tuesday rebuking his pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, for sermons sometimes laced with inflammatory tirades but said he could not disown him and it was time for Americans to bind the country's racial wounds.

The poll showed Obama continues to have strong support from the African-American community but that he is experiencing some slippage among moderates and independents.

Among independents, McCain led for the first time in the poll, 46 percent to 36 percent over Obama.

He was behind McCain by 21 percent among white voters.

Zogby attributed this to a combination of the fallout from Clinton's victory in Ohio earlier this month and the controversy over Wright's sermons.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 02:21 PM

"All I do know, is that I've been in the white equivalents to Obama's "barber shop" or "beauty salons" and it would be hard for me to see these folks taking to Obama's speech mainly 'cause many of them are a dumb as a box of creek rocks..."

If one changed "white" to "black", would this be a racist comment?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: freightdawg
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 02:33 PM

I did not hear the speech, but I have the transcript. As a public speaker I was deeply impressed with the rhetoric...it was a great speech, and if the words do indeed reveal the soul of the man then I am impressed with Obama.

However true that may be, I do not think that the speech totally undid all the damage. The fact is that Obama sat and listened to this man for 20 years. If a white politician sat and listened to the grand wizard (lizard?) of the KKK for twenty years it wouldn't matter how eloquently or frequently he denounced the racism of the KKK. I have heard the "sermons" of the pastor in question and beyond any shadow of a doubt they are among some of the most violent, racist and divisive comments I have ever heard. To explain them away as a part of the African-American heritage is to fall into the same gutter logic as the gangsta-rappers talking about capping cops and banging their ho's. That language is wrong in a white supremicist setting and it is wrong in a predominately black church. Obama cannot explain away why he listened to such hate speech for 20 years without challenging the speaker.

Like I said, the speech was dynamite. My initial reaction was, "Clinton is toast now." But those words, "God d**n America" will ring loud and clear until November. I don't think Obama answered the question most whites want to know, and that is, "what exactly is the difference between you listening to black racism for 20 years without challenging it, and me listening to white racism. Racism is racism."

He cleaned the table with that first speech. But he needs to reset the table and cue it up again.

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jim Lad
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 02:39 PM

I had predicted on another thread that this speech would be a guilt trip.
GG has already made most of the points I was waiting to make and one other guest has pointed out that he insulted his own grandmother for political gain. Much more crudely than I would but a valid point nonetheless.
America is not to blame for Obama's predicament.
Nor are any of the other candidates.
He has to take sole ownership for the fact that for twenty years he has belonged to a church that seems to base its message on a doctrine of hatred.
Life experience has taught me over and over that the individual who stands between two sides and proclaims himself the "Uniter" is more often than not, the wedge.
So think about this.....
Aside from the fact that most of those who do not share your views have been chased away by insults, Do you feel united yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 02:43 PM

"If one changed "white" to "black", would this be a racist comment?"


                           Yes, it would. That's an interesting observation.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 02:48 PM

As someone else has observed, John McCain has been cozy with people who have said far worse things about America. Unlike Obama, he cozied up to these folks long AFTER the offensive remarks were made.

All Obama has to say is, "I cannot be held responsible for the content of my pastor's sermons. I refuse to let a disagreement with my Minister separate me from my spiritual home."

What is McCain's excuse?

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:01 PM

You can't compare Wright to the KKK. He's never lynched or castrated a man or burned a cross on his lawn.

McCain Shared a stage with Hagee as Hagee endorsed him. Mrs. Clinton had Ferraro spue on for days while it was convenient to the campaign. If guilt by association is a disqualification then there is no one to vote for and certainly Mr. McCain and Mrs. Clinton are more complicit.

Obama said that he did not hear the comments you heard and that Wright never said anything racist in his presence. Obama's point that there are people like Rev Wright in every family of every race. I tend to agree with that. If you can't spot that person in your family, maybe its you.

Mr. Obama said that Rev. Wright said what he did because men of his generation are justifiably bitter. That may be so. I can't pretend to understand what they went though.

Older generations of people in my family said bad things about Catholics and the French. I will certainly denounce the bad things they said. I will not denounce them. Obama forgave his grandmother. Why not Rev. Wright? The speech may not have been enough. It may not have saved his campaign. But it was the right thing to do.

Guest, Guest, could not have been more wrong when she said he had no other choices. He had lots of choices. He made the brave on, he made the bold one, he made the right one.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:02 PM

Have to agree with you on this, Jack.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:05 PM

>>>he has belonged to a church that seems to base its message on a doctrine of hatred.<<<

I hope you are basing that on more than a few video clips.

Stereotyping is a nasty thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:08 PM

God damn America means nothing unless you view it in context.

"God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme."

I think America should be damned for treating citizens as less than human. I also think she should be damned for thinking she's supreme.

Does that mean I hate America? No! It does mean, however, if there is divine justice, America will have to pay for its transgressions and I think that eight years of Bush has been more than enough punishment. Lets hope America will see the light and make policies that are based on good will. Lets hope that Obama will change the tide.

If I could find a church like that, I'd probably join it myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:10 PM

Washington Post: I am not sure I agree with all of it, but another viewpoint- and aren't we supposed to look at all the viewpoints, if Obama is to be listened to? Or does inclusive only include the people who agree with us?

.................................................................
A Speech That Fell Short
By Michael Gerson
Wednesday, March 19, 2008; Page A15

Barack Obama has run a campaign based on a simple premise: that words of unity and hope matter to America. Now he has been forced by his charismatic, angry pastor to argue that words of hatred and division don't really matter as much as we thought.

Obama's speech in Philadelphia yesterday made this argument as well as it could be made. He condemned the Rev. Jeremiah Wright's views in strong language -- and embraced Wright as a wayward member of the family. He made Wright and his congregation a symbol of both the nobility and "shocking ignorance" of the African American experience -- and presented himself as a leader who transcends that conflicted legacy. The speech recognized the historical reasons for black anger -- and argued that the best response to those grievances is the adoption of Obama's own social and economic agenda.

It was one of the finest political performances under pressure since John F. Kennedy at the Greater Houston Ministerial Association in 1960. It also fell short in significant ways.

The problem with Obama's argument is that Wright is not a symbol of the strengths and weaknesses of African Americans. He is a political extremist, holding views that are shocking to many Americans who wonder how any presidential candidate could be so closely associated with an adviser who refers to the "U.S. of KKK-A" and urges God to "damn" our country.

Obama's excellent and important speech on race in America did little to address his strange tolerance for the anti-Americanism of his spiritual mentor.

Take an issue that Obama did not specifically confront yesterday. In a 2003 sermon, Wright claimed, "The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color."

This accusation does not make Wright, as Obama would have it, an "occasionally fierce critic of American domestic and foreign policy." It makes Wright a dangerous man. He has casually accused America of one of the most monstrous crimes in history, perpetrated by a conspiracy of medical Mengeles. If Wright believes what he said, he should urge the overthrow of the U.S. government, which he views as guilty of unspeakable evil. If I believed Wright were correct, I would join him in that cause.

But Wright's accusation is batty, reflecting a sputtering, incoherent hatred for America. And his pastoral teaching may put lives at risk because the virus that causes AIDS spreads more readily in an atmosphere of denial, quack science and conspiracy theories.

Obama's speech implied that these toxic views are somehow parallel to the stereotyping of black men by Obama's grandmother, which Obama said made him "cringe" -- both are the foibles of family. But while Grandma may have had some issues to work through, Wright is accusing the American government of trying to kill every member of a race. There is a difference.

Yet didn't George Bush and other Republican politicians accept the support of Jerry Falwell, who spouted hate of his own? Yes, but they didn't financially support his ministry and sit directly under his teaching for decades.

The better analogy is this: What if a Republican presidential candidate spent years in the pew of a theonomist church -- a fanatical fragment of Protestantism that teaches the modern political validity of ancient Hebrew law? What if the church's pastor attacked the U.S. government as illegitimate and accepted the stoning of homosexuals and recalcitrant children as appropriate legal penalties (which some theonomists see as biblical requirements)? Surely we would conclude, at the very least, that the candidate attending this church lacked judgment and that his donations were subsidizing hatred. And we would be right.

In Philadelphia, Obama attempted to explain Wright's anger as typical of the civil rights generation, with its "memories of humiliation and doubt and fear." But Wright has the opposite problem: He ignored the message of Martin Luther King Jr. and introduced a new generation to the politics of hatred.

King drew a different lesson from the oppression he experienced: "I've seen too much hate to want to hate myself; hate is too great a burden to bear. I've seen it on the faces of too many sheriffs of the South. . . . Hate distorts the personality. . . . The man who hates can't think straight; the man who hates can't reason right; the man who hates can't see right; the man who hates can't walk right."

Barack Obama is not a man who hates -- but he chose to walk with a man who does.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:16 PM

Also in the Washington post- And closer to what I think.


_____________________________


Obama's Road Map on Race

By Eugene Robinson
Wednesday, March 19, 2008; Page A15

Once again, the conventional wisdom proved stunningly unwise. Barack Obama was supposed to be on his heels, forced into a backpedaling, defensive crouch after racially charged remarks by his former pastor, delivered from the pulpit years ago, suddenly became the hottest story of the presidential campaign. But instead of running away, Obama issued a challenge to those who would exploit the issue of race: Bring it on.

Yesterday morning, in what may be remembered as a landmark speech regardless of who becomes the next president, Obama established new parameters for a dialogue on race in America that might actually lead somewhere -- that might break out of the sour stasis of grievance and countergrievance, of insensitivity and hypersensitivity, of mutual mistrust.

"My goal was to try to lift up some truth that people talk about privately but don't always talk about publicly between the races," Obama told me in a telephone interview later in the day. He delivered his speech, titled "A More Perfect Union," in Philadelphia just yards from Independence Hall.

As expected, Obama categorically denounced the incendiary sound bites from the Rev. Jeremiah Wright's sermons that have been played endlessly on cable television in recent days. Wright displayed "a profoundly distorted view of this country," Obama said in his speech, "a view that sees white racism as endemic."

But Obama didn't stop there. He went on to specify what was wrong with Wright's preaching about racism in the United States: "It's that he spoke as if our society was static; as if no progress had been made; as if this country . . . is still irrevocably bound to a tragic past."

The consensus among the commentariat was that Obama, as a matter of political tactics, should want to shift the conversation away from the subject of race as quickly as possible. He told me that the decision not to turn away, but to give a major speech on the issue, was his.

"What was fascinating over the last three or four days was to see how Reverend Wright's admittedly offensive comments . . . were packaged in sound bites in a way that didn't contribute to understanding between black and white Americans but only expanded the chasm between them," he said. "I thought it was both a challenge and an opportunity to use this moment to describe, to black and white, why there is this chasm."

And that may have been the most significant aspect of the speech: the fact that Obama proposed a conversation, not a monologue. He not only laid out the reasons some African Americans might feel alienated or resentful but also the reasons some white Americans might feel the same way.

"Most working- and middle-class white Americans don't feel that they have been particularly privileged by their race," Obama said in the speech. "Their experience is the immigrant experience -- as far as they're concerned, no one handed them anything, they built it from scratch. . . . So when they are told to bus their children to a school across town; when they hear that an African American is getting an advantage in landing a good job or a spot in a good college . . . when they're told that their fears about crime in urban neighborhoods are somehow prejudiced, resentment builds over time."

These resentments have "helped shape the political landscape for at least a generation," Obama told his audience. "And yet, to wish away the resentments of white Americans, to label them as misguided or even racist, without recognizing they are grounded in legitimate concerns -- this too widens the racial divide, and blocks the path to understanding."

Obama called on African Americans to embrace "the burdens of our past without becoming victims of our past," and to take "full responsibility for our own lives." And he's absolutely right.

This amounts to a new set of talking points for a discussion about race: Don't be paralyzed by history but acknowledge its effects. Recognize that whites have legitimate grievances that are not racist. Don't cling to victimhood as an all-purpose excuse. Accept personal responsibility.

Obama told me that he doesn't intend to make race a major theme of his campaign. "I don't think that we are going to be gnawing on this bone at every stop," he said. But I believe he might have pulled off something that seemed almost impossible: He not only ventured into the minefield of race and made it back alive, but he also marked a path for the rest of us to follow.

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:21 PM

What if a Republican presidential candidate spent years in the pew of a theonomist church -- a fanatical fragment of Protestantism that teaches the modern political validity of ancient Hebrew law?

This description does not transfer to the church Obama attends. The denomination is not dangerous. The preacher may have some misguided ideas but don't tar the entire denomination. I am not blindly backing Obama on this one but I think we need to stay on track in our critique.

I think it was a wonderful speech but the damage may be done. A black candidate for president has less wiggle room than a white male. There are a lot of people in this country who would not vote for a black under any circumstance, he can't afford to lose all that many of those who might.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jim Lad
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:27 PM

Today, there will be a "Wait a minute" moment.
A point at which voters and journalists will ruminate on the speech and decide whether it was indeed as good as it tasted.
Many will be asking "Did he just blame me?" "It's my fault that his Pastor preaches hatred?" "I should change what I'm doing so that his church can get around to preaching the word of God instead of this other nonsense?" "Did he just admit that he was there when some of these sermons were delivered after telling us all that he was not?" Many, many questions.
Because it's about politics and not saving us from ourselves.
He got caught and any other candidate would have been invited to step down by his own party.
This has been Obama's last chance and it's not certain yet that he will survive it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:36 PM

Realistically, Jim, is there anything he could have said that would bring you on board? I'm not trying to be nasty, but I do wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:40 PM

Mr. Gerson is falling back on the one most common argument of the weak minded bully. Weak minded bullies who try to excuse every evil thing that weak minded cowards in office and in the military have done by wrapping it in the flag.

You don't like the
Mai Lai Massacre?
Watergate?
Iraq War?
Overthrowing the democracy in Iran in the 1950's to protect British oil interests?
Killing whales with sonar?
Corporate welfare?
Spending 2 billion dollars on a Submarine to lob missiles we don't need any more on an enemy that ceased to exist in 1989.

"Why do you hate America?"

Its not America that we hate. Its evil being done in her name that we hate.

As small child could point out to Mr. Gerson that when Wright was talking about USA of KKK he was not talking about the people in his church was was a part of America that he loves.

America did not invent aids. But people working for the government did give syphilis to a group of black men in Alabama and those government men took careful notes as those men died.

Rev. Wright's rantings are not totally without cause. And no Rev. Wright does not appear to be a political extremist. He is just a preacher exaggerating to make a point.   

Bush has such preachers in his past. But there is a world of difference between Bush and Obama. Bush does not renounce their words.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:48 PM

"The preacher may have some misguided ideas but don't tar the entire denomination."

I totally agree with that. Most people don't join a church because of the minister. They join because they like the congregation. I'm sure that over the years, Obama's family have made many friends. Why would you leave your friends if one of them said something that offended you? Thats not how relationships grow.

My mother says things that offend me but I don't shun her or my family because of her ignorant comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jim Lad
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:52 PM

"Realistically, Jim, is there anything he could have said that would bring you on board? I'm not trying to be nasty, but I do wonder."
Good question.
The short answer is "No".
Are you interested in the long answer?
I'm not trying to be nasty but I do wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:57 PM

Thanks for the Eugene Robinson post Bruce.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:06 PM

This is what Kathleen Parker has to say about it!




Guilting America all the way to the White House March 19, 2008

Barack Obama is a magician.

He could tell me it's raining on a sunny day, and I'd grab an umbrella. He could tell me the moon is the sun, and I'd reach for my shades.

He could even tell me that the Rev. Jeremiah Wright's rants god-damning America and blaming AIDS on a white-man conspiracy were wrong but essentially justified by a racist past ... and I'd have to slap myself before I saddled up a polka-dotted horse and galloped down the Yellow Brick Road.

Obama's speech Tuesday from Philadelphia — the city of brotherly love — was eloquent, inspiring and will be read in schools for generations. But between the lines of change and reconciliation were a discomfiting hint of buried fury, a sense of racial righteousness and a tacit approval attached to his expressed disapproval of Wright's now-famous raves that will leave many Americans wondering: Is he with us? Or is he against us?

In a flourish of brilliance, Obama framed his Rev. Wright problem in the context of America's unfinished work toward "a more perfect union," as envisioned by the nation's forefathers. It isn't that Wright is off-the-wall, we were to infer. It is that our country is falling short of its promise.

Which isn't completely false, of course, but not completely true, either. America isn't finished with its business of equality — and race does still bedevil us — but our progress since the twin blights of slavery and Jim Crow isn't insignificant.

Ever conscious of his pledge to unity, Obama acknowledged as much, saying that Wright wasn't wrong to talk about racism — even if it was one-sided. He was wrong to speak "as if our society was static: as if no progress has been made."

But what he didn't acknowledge is that Wright is completely off-the-wall, even if the snippets we've seen are only a fraction of his life's work. Give Wright credit for helping the unfortunate and for leading Obama to his faith. But those accomplishments don't quite neutralize the anti-white message of the man Obama selected as his spiritual mentor.

Like the best politicians, Obama senses our restlessness. One of his many gifts is his ability to lull people with flawless logic and uplifting rhetoric.

Of course he disagrees with some of Wright's controversial statements — just as most people disagree with some of what their pastors and rabbis say. We're yum-yumming that idea, thinking "Yeah, that's right," when our inner reality-checker kicks in and kills the buzz.

Then we remember that advancing lies and conspiracy theories that pit black against white is not, in fact, defensible. And that what many find offensive in Wright's statements is not comparable to the minor differences they likely have with their own pastors and rabbis.

The question still remains: Why did Obama, future author of racial harmony, stay with a preacher whose black nationalist leanings were no secret?

Obama said he could no more denounce Wright, who is "like family," than he could denounce the black community — or his white grandmother. Instead, he praised Wright's larger presence and purpose in the black community as outweighing the YouTube replays of a profane man on the verge of paranoiac hysteria.

Moreover, the minister whom Obama first got to know 20 years ago spoke of "our obligations to love one another." But given Wright's racist eruptions, white Americans are justified in wondering whether those charitable thoughts also apply to them.

Finally, Obama suggested that if Wright is occasionally angry, he has a right to be, as does the community he serves. And if white Americans are startled to witness that anger, they haven't been paying attention.

That was a risky message, but one that counted on a reliable well of white guilt. Then Obama took another pre-emptive gamble and implored Americans to look at Wright's anger, rather than avert their gaze, and to embrace that anger as a prompt to change.

In other words, he artfully shifted focus from his still-perplexing relationship with Wright to our own dark hearts. The choice is ours, he said:

We can focus on one ol' crazy uncle who sometimes gets a little carried away — and in so doing, destroy the audacity of hope. Or, we can keep our nation's date with destiny, fulfill the dream imagined 221 years ago to form a more perfect union.

And elect Barack Obama.

Anyone who fails to embrace the only appealing option — eschewing cheap spectacle for a dance with destiny to the tune of hope — begins to feel a little woozy and, oddly, un-American.

Abracadabra.

Kathleen Parker is a syndicated columnist for the Washington Post Writers Group. E-mail her at [e-mail].

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:07 PM

BOTH of the Post articles are worth reading, not just the one I agree with.

Inclusive means looking at others viewpoints. THAT is what I like, and see as a strong point in Obama's speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:12 PM

There are hate groups like the KKK, and then there are garden variety bigots that most of us have known, or at times, have been. EVERYBODY can be ignorant, and probably has been. I know I have. Luckily for me, there have been a few people down the years who've had the patience and kindness to call me on certain things and explain how THEY felt, and I've grown because of them.

Somewhere on the Internet, I asked somebody why a particular term was offensive. I think they believed I was just playing ignorant, but they answered me anyway, and I learned something. Not only did I understand more about the specific term in its implications, I thought about other ones.

We are just imperfect humans, and almost all of us are trying to be better. I try to realize that when I talk to people with viewpoints that look bigoted or racist or sexist or whateverist. People have bad qualities and people have good qualities - EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM. They can change as long as they're getting input from outside. They can change unles they stop trying or unless others stop trying to reach them.

The only thing that will finish a person's growth is when others stop talking to them or they quit listening. I'm not religious, but if you are, tell me: at what point a person is beyond redemption? When exactly would the most perfect person who ever lived, be it Jesus, Mohamed, the Buddha, whoever, stopped talking to Rev. Wright?

Why I loved this speech? It was about listening of course, but it was about communicating with people we don't agree with, it was about accepting differences without hating the other person or dismissing them out of hand. I'm white, and I've had enough arguments with other white people about what I believed was their bigotry. We've probably all had a Rev. Wright or an uncle with a hair trigger or someone else who had bugaboos that you just didn't want to bring up.

I've had arguments with people who believed HIV was sent by God to punish homosexuals, people who thought calling someone 'nigger' was no big deal, people who judged others by what they looked like, and people who just lived to ridicule others. You know what? Sometimes they changed their minds. Sometimes I talked without hate and they listened and they understood me.

People of the sort who believe Obama should have thrown Wright under the bus to prove his own righteousness have little left to cling to but hatred. Demand what you want, I respect someone who doesn't do things just to appease those out for blood.

I liked Obama before the speech. I like him even more now. He's not perfect - nobody is - but he really showed why he CAN unite people. I don't know what will happen now, but that speech deserves to be heard by everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:13 PM

"And that may have been the most significant aspect of the speech: the fact that Obama proposed a conversation, not a monologue. He not only laid out the reasons some African Americans might feel alienated or resentful but also the reasons some white Americans might feel the same way.

"Most working- and middle-class white Americans don't feel that they have been particularly privileged by their race," Obama said in the speech. "Their experience is the immigrant experience -- as far as they're concerned, no one handed them anything, they built it from scratch. . . . So when they are told to bus their children to a school across town; when they hear that an African American is getting an advantage in landing a good job or a spot in a good college . . . when they're told that their fears about crime in urban neighborhoods are somehow prejudiced, resentment builds over time."

These resentments have "helped shape the political landscape for at least a generation," Obama told his audience. "And yet, to wish away the resentments of white Americans, to label them as misguided or even racist, without recognizing they are grounded in legitimate concerns -- this too widens the racial divide, and blocks the path to understanding."

Obama called on African Americans to embrace "the burdens of our past without becoming victims of our past," and to take "full responsibility for our own lives." And he's absolutely right.

This amounts to a new set of talking points for a discussion about race: Don't be paralyzed by history but acknowledge its effects. Recognize that whites have legitimate grievances that are not racist. Don't cling to victimhood as an all-purpose excuse. Accept personal responsibility. "

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:19 PM

Are you interested in the long answer?

I think I have been reading your long answer, I just wanted to be sure I wasn't mis-reading it. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:27 PM

Obama's speech shows real insight into the problems around race in America. He gets BOTH sides of the picture clearly. What a refreshing thing that is to see!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jim Lad
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:34 PM

How could you?
I haven't given it to you.
I tried all day yesterday to get people to cut back on the insults and enjoy political debate. I have tried many times in the past.
So far, very little success.
I'm giving up again.

Date: 19 Mar 08 - 02:39 PM

I had predicted on another thread that this speech would be a guilt trip.
GG has already made most of the points I was waiting to make and one other guest has pointed out that he insulted his own grandmother for political gain. Much more crudely than I would but a valid point nonetheless.
America is not to blame for Obama's predicament.
Nor are any of the other candidates.
He has to take sole ownership for the fact that for twenty years he has belonged to a church that seems to base its message on a doctrine of hatred.
Life experience has taught me over and over that the individual who stands between two sides and proclaims himself the "Uniter" is more often than not, the wedge.
So think about this.....
Aside from the fact that most of those who do not share your views have been chased away by insults, Do you feel united yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:41 PM

How could you?
I haven't given it to you.


Not all at once, no, but a bit at a time, I think yes. I am really not trying to insult you, I just wanted to be sure I understood the parameters of your argument. That does not make your argument less valid or your opinion less worth hearing. I don't agree with you but what the hey.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 05:06 PM

I don't follow your line of reasoning at all, Jim Lad.

How do you get that Obama "insulted" his grandmother? He simply told the truth about a good woman who was not perfect.

Let me illustrate with a story of my own. I had a grandfather who was an extremely kind and good man in almost every respect, and an honest and harmless man...but...he was tremendously prejudiced against Blacks, Indians, Asians...anyone who wasn't White, in fact.

This did not change the fact that in most respects he was an extremely good man, but if you can't understand that good people sometimes have flaws and blind spots in their thinking...then you will never understand people at all.

You have to look into why an essentially good and loving person carries prejudice. In my grandfather's case it was because he had grown up in an utterly different time and society than you or I did. He grew up in the upper classes of Vienna in the Austro-Hungarian Empire in a totally White-dominated society in which the kind of prejudices he had as his bedrock assumptions were, frankly, universal among his peers...and he simply carried those assumptions in an unthinking way for the rest of his life. He barely ever knew any non-European people or anyone who would have questioned his ignorant assumptions about race.

Does this mean he was evil? No. Does this mean that I would be insulting him by now telling the story of his life and mentioning in that story that he was prejudiced against non-Whites? No.

I would simply be telling an honest truth about a basically good man who was, as most people are, a product of the time, place, and circumstances that he grew up in.

Obama's statement was in no way an insult to his grandmother, it was an honest and truthful statement which ought to help people to see beyond their own narrow little vicious angle on things and to once...for gosh sakes...FORGIVE themselves and others for not being totally 100% PERFECT all the time in absolutely every way.

MOST people are racially prejudiced to some extent. Most (if not all) people are culturally prejudiced. ALL people are unreasonably prejudiced toward something or someone. If they would have the guts to face that imperfection in themselves, admit it, and then have some good will to try and deal with it....then I think they would spend a lot less time castigating other people for reflecting back to them their own inner garbage.

Obama has again shown that he is willing to look at both sides of an issue honestly and he is willing to RESPECT the people on both sides of the issue, and he's willing to RELATE to where they are coming from.

That is so rare in today's divisive and destructive political dialogues (which are usually just mutually competing monologues and exercises in accusation and condemnation) that I'm not surprised you can't believe him. It must sound like Martian or something to your ears.

People are just not normally respectful of one another in politics these days. Not one iota. They are out for the jugular. They intend to do harm. Their words indicate poorly concealed hatred. They despise one another, and they're proud of it. They believe in the White Hats vs the Black Hats, just like they've seen all their lives in stupid Hollywood movies and TV shows... they believe in stark divisions of humanity into "the good" and "the evil". Have you noticed?

Obama is not doing that. He is showing real insight into people's common problems and concerns and giving respect to what all of them have gone through on a personal basis. He is not demanding perfection of people out of one side of his mouth so he can then damn them out of the other side.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 05:31 PM

Senator Barack Obama gave a major policy presentation today about the war in Iraq and our national security. That speech was given in Fayetteville, North Carolina {Fort Bragg}.

The complete text of that speech is found at:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/3/19/114032/682/108/479934
Obama Takes It to McCain on Iraq War
by SusanG
Wed Mar 19, 2008

Here are three excerpts from that speech:

"Now we know what we'll hear from those like John McCain who support open-ended war. They will argue that leaving Iraq is surrender. That we are emboldening the enemy. These are the mistaken and misleading arguments we hear from those who have failed to demonstrate how the war in Iraq has made us safer. Just yesterday, we heard Senator McCain confuse Sunni and Shiite, Iran and al Qaeda. Maybe that is why he voted to go to war with a country that had no al Qaeda ties. Maybe that is why he completely fails to understand that the war in Iraq has done more to embolden America's enemies than any strategic choice that we have made in decades".

**

"But here is the stark reality: there is a security gap in this country – a gap between the rhetoric of those who claim to be tough on national security, and the reality of growing insecurity caused by their decisions. A gap between Washington experience, and the wisdom of Washington's judgments. A gap between the rhetoric of those who tout their support for our troops, and the overburdened state of our military".

**

"We have a security gap when candidates say they will follow Osama bin Laden to the gates of hell, but refuse to follow him where he actually goes".

-snip-

Also, see this comment from http://ruralvotes.com/thefield/
Now, About that War in Iraq-

"On Thursday, March 20, 2008, Senator Barack Obama will deliver a major speech on Iraq and the economy in Charleston, West Virginia, where he will address the costs of the war in Iraq on our economy.

Note the locations: North Carolina and West Virginia (Charleston is also the television market that covers ten eastern Kentucky counties, so, really, it's a three-fer in upcoming primary states)".

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 05:39 PM

Those are brilliant, Azizi, thanks. I need to read more of this guy.

(I was surprised to see several objectors to the grandmother issue. That was the lynchpin of his argument as viewed from my perspective. Hell, for some of my rural prairie grandparents, being white was no qualification for anything at all. You had to be Scottish. We all come from somewhere. Wright got very confused, perhaps.)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 05:41 PM

I'm feeling a little ethnocentrisim going on here with some folks not only not knowing what goes on in black churches accross the country but also what goes on in "the barbershops and beauty parlors"...

This is the part of ths discussion that many white folks don't wnat to hear about...

Yeah, it's a lot easier for them to parrot what they have been taught which is "I shouldn't have to pay for something my great-granddaddy did..." This wrong thinking... Yes, part of this discussion is not only understandinmg what our great-granddaddies did but the institutions that our great-granddaddies put into place that has prevented way too many black people to not have a level playing field... That's where the anger comes into play here...

Black people know alot more about white folks because, as Eugene Robinson pinted out, white folks are not only the majority but hold the power than do white people have a clue about black folks and their angers... This is also part of the discussion...

If I had to fault Obama for anything it was that he didn't put enough emphasis on how corporate America plays the "divide and conquer" game... Had I been involved in writing his speech I would have used that phrase at least once and perhaps twice...

As Rig's pointed out there will, at some point in this fiscussion, be talj about "repair"ations... I'm sure the Repubs will sue repairations in their campaign because it excites the less enlightened portion of their base, which is about 75% of their base...

I've always been a proponent of "repair"ations not only for black but for anyone who has not been given an equal change to succeed... But that's another can of worms for the Repubs to play...

A day later, I am still very inmpressed with Obama and his speech...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 05:42 PM

Last night Obama was interviewed on Nightline. Terry Moran asked him some penetrating questions and Obama answered him fully and thoughtfully.

Moran asked him what was going to happen now- did he think that perhaps his candidacy was doomed?

Obama answered, I have no idea of how it will play out. I just know that it was the right thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 05:57 PM

GUESTstranger

I had a priest who gave sermons every sunday in my church when I was growing up who started every sermon with:

"I once met a woman who ..."

And he would go on to explain said womans dilemna's/actions and explain/criticize her confusion/mistakes.

He was a misoginist old fool.

I am Irish and was brought up a catholic.

The catholic church in Ireland has in recent years apologized for the misdeeds of some of it's priests who have abused children, in some cases sexually, but in all cases violently.

I am neither a Misoginist, a child beater or a paedophile.

I abhor all these things.

But I feel no need to distance myself from the Catholic church.

I am a lapsed Catholic, but this is more down to a combination of ideological differences and laziness, not because I think for a moment that having a catholic root associates me with Misogeny or child abuse.

Obama is right to stick by the reverend wright and the contradiction GUESTstranger talks about is completely fictional.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Peace
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 05:59 PM

Guest,stranger is completely fictional.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Peace
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:04 PM

Any new poll results that show promise for Obama?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:08 PM

How did he insult his grandmother????

He said that evn though he has heard her utter racial obscenities that have hurt him, he loves her and would never denounce or disown her ...

... erm ...

... ooooohhh ....

(still not really seeing any insult there)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:12 PM

"Black people know alot more about white folks because, as Eugene Robinson pinted out, white folks are not only the majority but hold the power than do white people have a clue about black folks and their angers... This is also part of the discussion..."


Bobert,

Black people also know more about white folks because they work in their homes, communities and offices, often doing menail jobs where they are part of the furniture.

This tends to happen less the other way round.

We're not talking south africa, but we are talking about a historical truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Peace
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:17 PM

My grandmother used terms I didn't like. So did my grandfather. They sacrificed much on my behalf. My grandfather quit school so he could go work in the damned mines to help his parents with money for his brothers and sisters. He had a big garden about two miles from where he lived and he gave food to people during the Depression. Never saw that ethnicity had anything to do with who got the food. Perfect? No. Wonderful and giving? Yes.

Had Obama said less, people would be saying he held back. He said what he said. Honest and to the point. I won't slag the man for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:22 PM

If I were to help O'Bama write that speech, I would have tried to bring some more hues into it. Maybe it's just the demographics of the two cities I know best, but Black and White comes across as a little anachronistic.

(Re: Obama's speech today: McCain needs to chill a little on this war on terror thing, even if he is targeting the red meat conservative core. As I just read somewhere, we didn't declare war on blitzkrieg – that would be nonsensical, and shows extreme lack of clarity. (And I have amusing thoughts of a hit-piece ad, showing him throwing the red phone against the wall or at somebody at 3:00 a.m.).)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:22 PM

Exactly, lox... It's not only that black folks work for white folks but also white folks lives have been portrayed all over the TV going back 50's years...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:54 PM

I think Obama is definitely doing the right thing now going after McCain too.

He needs to concentrate on the main issues more, but in a more aggressive way.

The Iraq issue is probably the easiest one to get him back on track and get him away from tha "democratic party race divide"

He gets back into the cross party policy divide then and makes a statement that for him the race debacle is over, and then refuses to return to it for the rest of the campaign.

Damn this is one dramatic election!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:56 PM

Yes, it is... Not quite '68 but it ain't over yet...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 07:07 PM

heric, Obama did mention in his speech something to the effect that his own family has people in it of all colors and hues.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 07:09 PM

Oh, you're right. I am misremembering already – one day later. Too much reading ABOUT the speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 07:22 PM

Excuse me for hijacking and plundering and cutting and pasteing ...


All the most heinous mudcat crimes rolled into one ...

I got this from a link on another thread and thought - gosh that might look good in the Obama thread...

Here it is ...

"Intelligent people talk about ideas.
Average people talk about things.
Small people talk about other people."

The intelligent among you will refrain from commenting that I'm talking about Obama (thanks) ...


In the meantime I'm off to do some trolling and flaming ...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 07:48 PM

Got that right, lox. ;-) This town is full of people (some of them musicians too) whose eyes glaze over the minute you start talking about ideas...but I've noticed most of them are delighted to talk about things or about other people. Specially other people. Noooo problem.

As Bob Dylan once said, "if anyone out there's got an original idea, I could use it right now".

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 07:52 PM

Rev. Wright led that church for how many years? Wasn't it twenty-odd? That would be 45x20 (allowing for some weeks off), or nearly 1000 hour-long sermons. I just wonder how many people spent how much time going over his videoed presentations in order to find the two or three that were excerpted and used to (sorry, mg) swiftboat Sen. Obama. Didn't he say in his speech yesterday that he wasn't present for any of the comments referenced, and he would have called the Reverend on them if he had?

I have some issues with Sen. Obama, as I do with both Sen. Clinton and Sen. McCain, but this is hardly gong to be a "defining moment" for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 08:04 PM

It kind of is though Art,

Because it's the moment when Obama had to stop in his tracks and deal with the issue that has been an undercurrent throughout - race and race relations.

This has been the undercurrent throughout for one reason and one reason only.

Obama qualifies, by American precedent, as a black man.

This issue is an uncomfortable and deeply emotive one and it does fracture American society.

So he had to deal with it, under high octane circumstances, in a way that showed he was enough of a statesman to reassure white people that he isn't a special interest black politician, to reassure black people that he hasn't forgotten the humiliation of having to plead and fight for equality, in a country where equality is central to the constitution, and to everyone else that ths isn't just about whites and blacks just getting along, and maintining the persona of a president in waiting and persuading everyone that they can trust him with the economy and foreign policy etc etc

It was his make or break speech - and it stll might not be enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 08:11 PM

That is exactly the cogent point, artbrooks. Anyone here in this entire forum would be politically damned as a presidential or congressional candidate if they were held to account for every single statement they have EVER uttered or written about society or politics in the past 20 years.

All of us would fail to meet the standard of perfection that is demanded of a candidate by people who are only out to find dirt.

It's easy. You just ignore the 999,000 reasonable things a person has said in the last 20 years, you ignore every good thing they've ever done, you ignore every decent quality they're ever shown...and you give all your attention instead to one or two or three brief sound bites they delivered in a moment of anger, passion, or stress.

That's the game the media and the muckrakers play.

NO ONE can pass that test unscathed unless he's spent his entire adult life in a coma...or spent it as a total phony.

That's partly why politics has become such a terribly sad and corrupted game in America. It is driven by the will to win at any cost, and the will to destroy anyone who's not on the team you are backing.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 08:23 PM

Here's a powerful comment about Barack Obama's speech on race. I believe this comment is short enough to be reposted in this thread in its entirety.

The Speech and my Mom the White Grandma
by jhpdb
Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 02:06:14 PM PDT
My Mom has been a diehard HRC supporter from the start.

She has a Hillary sign on her bedroom mirror. She has steadfastly resisted the rest of the family's onslaught in favor of Obama. And we have really worked hard.

My Mom grew up white and poor in Detroit. And scared of black people.

She also worked and volunteered for years helping poor often black people in her new town.

My adopted daughter is from Liberia. I also have kids from El Salvador and Ecuador. My wife from Argentina.

'Race' is ever present in our lives

My Mom, the white grandmother of my black daughter, watched the speech.

And she cried.

She sat quietly for a few minutes without saying a single word...

Then she got up, walked into her bedroom and took down her HRC sign.

My Mom has said some of the same things as Barack's grandmother I'm sure.

But yesterday, a page was turned.

An Eighty-two year old woman changed.

I am ready to believe our nation can too.

And that my kids, black white and Latino can be proud of their country even on the subject of race.

This is not a diary against HRC. It is simply an attempt to document the incredible leadership one candidate is already exercising in this campaign.

I love my Mom, and today, thanks to Barack I can love her more.

There is less between her and the rest of my family.

Yes we can. Come together."

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/3/19/17614/4021/641/457003

-snip-

A number of comments have been posted in response to this dairy,and can be read by clicking on the above link.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 08:23 PM

"Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever . . . ."

"God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human."

It strikes me that while the rhetoric is different, Thomas Jefferson and Jeremiah Wright were actually saying something very similar in those two quotes.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 08:33 PM

There's a whole load of justification for saying exactly those kind of impassioned things in a moment of deep anger at the gross injustices perpetrated in (and by) America. It's nothing anyone needs to apologize for.

And that's the giant elephant in the room that the hypocrites who've launched this attack on Obama will never even recognize or admit to, apparently...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 08:35 PM

Ugh!!!

I did it again. I'm sorry! Would a moderator please delete the duplicate posting of that comment in my 19 Mar 08 - 08:23 PM post so that the quotation starts after the second appearance of the title?

From now on I will try very hard to be more careful with my postings.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 08:39 PM

Well - I had a long comment, but my computer decided to reboot and I lost it...

Sen. Obama cannot allow this issue to redefine and take over his campaign. It had to be addressed, and he was wise to not follow in Sen. Kerry's footsteps and ignore it. At the same time, there are many many things that need to continue to be addressed. IMHO, most of the people whose votes he may potentially lose because of anything Rev. Wright said wouldn't have voted for him anyway - and probably aren't qualified to vote in a Democratic Party primary anyway. It is also my opinion, and contrary to that of many others here, that should he be the eventual nominee Sen. Clinton and her current supporters will be firmly behind him, and they will not be swayed by this either.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: heric
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:12 PM

It would be extremely difficult to be profound and inspiring and even controversial for hours on end every week of the year. A LOT of leeway needs to be given there.

but

These two sentences contrast sharply:

"Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever . . . ."


"The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color."

That is one HELL of a sentence.

But we don't have to vote for that Wright guy. His words are not Obama's. That said, if I heard a Rabbi or minister say such a thing once, I would know then and there I was in the wrong place. Even if he was respected and connected.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:18 PM

"Sen. Obama cannot allow this issue to redefine and take over his campaign."

                     Hasn't it already? Isn't this always what he was about?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:20 PM

No, Rinslinger, it's what people who don't support him wish he was always about.

Ever try to get a dog to stop barking at someone once he's decided to?

Hopeless. The dog has already decided he has a grievance, and nothing you can do can change his mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:21 PM

NO

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:25 PM

Hi heric - glad to know you're still in the hood.

You commented on this quote, "The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color."

Why stop at people of colour? He could have added homosexuals, sex-trade workers and drug addicts as well but ...

heh, wait a minute...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:27 PM

You're right Rig.

The fact that he keeps trying to widen the debate and get back onto more important topics shouldn't blind you to his cynical and consistent production of more melanin than anyone could ever need in the northern hemisphere.

And it is clear that he is going to continue to produce even more of the stuff - especially as the days start to get longer and the sun starts to get hotter.

Such low tactics do nothing but debase american politics and insult the american voter right?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Peace
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:39 PM

"Sen. Obama cannot allow this issue to redefine and take over his campaign."

    'Hasn't it already? Isn't this always what he was about?'

One of the things I have learned about fighting (fingers/fists/elbows/knees/feet) is that it is foolish to allow the opposition--whether one or more of them--to control the timing and tempo of events. And buddy, if you think this 'election' stuff ain't a street fight, think again.

Obama will carry the fight to where it has to go. Mostly ignore Hillary and show the Democrats that he can handle McCain--and he'll do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:40 PM

That's the problem. Day light saving time started early this year. Right after the primary in Ohio, what?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:42 PM

That's a quote that has been widely attributed to Rev Wright. Whether he actually said it is less clear. In any case, while it may be paranoid, it's not in itself racist. Lots of people, of all colours, seem to think in those kind of terms about shadowy conspiracies that they use to explain what goes wrong in the world.

I think however that the quotes I put together up there from Jefferson and Wright do in fact echo each other in a thought provoking way.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:44 PM

That's definitely the plan of attack.

And it's the right attitude to have as well.

I wish I had your confidence Peace - I think it will be a closer run thing than you are looking at.

I'll be the first one jumping on the table if he does get there, but in the meantime I don't intend to set myself up for a big disappointment.

We had that last time with the whole Bush Gore Florida possible rigged election debacle.

Even if he wins ... he might not win...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:47 PM

"That's definitely the plan of attack."

Sorry, that was a direct response to peaces last comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Peace
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:52 PM

I'm too old to have those kinds of dreams. But I'm also old enough to know that the way ya lose is just as important as the way ya win.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Peace
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:55 PM

(I've done my share of both.)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:59 PM

Lets hope he's chosen the way you win and not the way you lose ...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: heric
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 10:03 PM

>I think however that the quotes I put together up there from Jefferson and Wright do in fact echo each other in a thought provoking way. <

I agree. That one quote (genocide) is the only one that troubles my inner reality-checker.

If Dianavan means that lots of mudcatters could believe that statement - that's fine because we are old cranks sitting around in our underwear or pajamas ranting on the internet. Wright is held, appropriately, to ethical standards and accountability. Throwing out genocide conspiracy theories for shock or entertainment value or whatever, or for the truth of the statement, gives him great responsibilities for follow through against a corrupt government that indeed must be overthrown. It is one HELL of a statement for a community moral leader to posit before people retire for cookies and punch in the cafeteria.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Peace
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 10:05 PM

Lox, I'm with you on that. However, look at it this way. He takes on McCain, and if Hillary does take the Dem nomination, then McCain is forced to

1) switch opponents
2) defend himself from what he's said in the Obama/McCain fight
3) and then has to say different things to his NEW opposition

Ya ever watch a fighter before ya fight him? Tells ya lots about what to expect. Obama taking on McCain will let both H and O see what's ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 10:10 PM

Well it's 2am here and I reckon I'm out for the count so you better give me a standing count and ring the bell and I'll come back swinging in the next round.

Gnight folks ...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Peace
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 10:15 PM

LOL

Night, Lox. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 10:21 PM

Before building too much on that quote it would be as well to be sure that he actually said it. He may well for that matter - it's been a common enough theory about AIDS to suggest that it was the result of a government research project that went wrong. Nothing intrinsically impossible about that either - it just doesn't seem to square with the evidence.

As for the suggestion that there are people in high places who would have few qualms about genocide, sadly enough that does not seem at all impossible. After all willingness to carry out genocide is implied in the readiness to use H-bombs.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 11:05 PM

I've been so busy I haven't really been following the "fall out coverage".

I sometimes go to Huffington Post to get a sense of what the left leaning blogs are saying.

Here is something I pretty much agree with (along w/heric's initial recollection/instincts? about the speech being oddly anachronistic, and too stuck in the black/white dichotomies of the past):

From John Judis, author of The Emerging Democratic Majority:

"It was a wonderful speech. Very gracious. I liked the fact that he didn't throw Wright to the dogs and didn't blame the racial fracas on Hillary. But I liked it for myself. Politically, I am not sure it addressed the people he needs to win over. Obama still talks as if the country is divided between black and white. I know he does the litany of black-white-brown-red-yellow, but it's not a reality to him that blacks are now a minority within a minority. There was nothing in that speech that spoke to Latinos. As for the white guy still not ready to contemplate a black president, his approach was largely academic -- about 'their' resentments against welfare in the '80s. He didn't speak TO them. His last example was telling. A 23-year-old Obama supporter. Not someone that any of these constituencies could identify with. He is still fundamentally a candidate of the professional classes who were products of the civil rights movement. He hasn't made that step beyond that he would need to make to win a majority in November."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 11:18 PM

This incident is reminiscent for me, of Jesse Jackson's "Hymietown" remark that nearly got him crucified in the 1984 campaign.

Also, artbrooks--no one had to dig very far to get the video of Wright. They were on videos & DVDs being sold as a fundraiser on his church's website.

Somewhere up above in one of the cut and pastes, someone commented on Obama's attempt to conflate his pastor's most incendiary and inflammatory comments w/his grandmother's. I thought that bit was just odd and bizarre--a real WHAAAAT? kinda moment. I didn't feel it exploited his grandmother at all, but the comparison was so not apples to apples. So that didn't work for me.

And finally, here is the sad reality. Most US voters will never hear that speech, or anything beyond a sound bite here or there. What they will see is the Wright footage over and over and over between now and November.

So, truly, how can this one speech innoculate Obama from that, when the country wants it's leaders to deal with what appears to most people to be the far more pressing issues of the day like the economy, the war, the economy, the war, and last but not least, the economy and the war.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 12:10 AM

Well, then, there's little hope of anything intelligent or insightful or in depth ever getting much of a public response in the USA, is there? If, as you suggest, you have a nation of yobbos who are incapable of digesting anything more substantial than a couple of sensationalist soundbites on the 6 O'Clock News or Youtube, and who are too lazy and passive to look any further than that....

Then they will just keep on getting the atrocious governments they deserve, won't they?

And the rest of the world will either join forces one day to fight them and defeat them...or will simply leave them behind. That's what happens finally to corrupt and decadent empires that have lost touch with reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: heric
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 12:33 AM

I went back and read the original. My concerns are largely abated. I suggest that to anyone: What he said is very difficult to remember when you are bombarded with analysis of what he supposedly said.

First, while he said he heard provocative commentary in sermons with which he disagreed, he made clear that the recent controversial statements, though not described, were far beyond what he had ever personally heard.

Second, although the speech is principally about Black and White - he makes it that way because he is addressing the coments of a black man about white society.

And, among other things, he said this:

The profound mistake of Reverend Wright's sermons is not that he spoke about racism in our society. It's that he spoke as if our society was static; as if no progress has been made; as if this country - a country that has made it possible for one of his own members to run for the highest office in the land and build a coalition of white and black; Latino and Asian, rich and poor, young and old -- is still irrevocably bound to a tragic past. But what we know -- what we have seen - is that America can change. That is true genius of this nation. What we have already achieved gives us hope - the audacity to hope - for what we can and must achieve tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,McGee
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:00 AM

It was an inspiring speech from an inspiring politician. The US(and the world at large) is heading into some very troubling economic times and will need a leader who can lead, a leader who can inspire, a leader who can make people pull together for the common good.

Think Abraham Lincoln, Franklin D. Roosevelt, John F. Kennedy (tragically truncated though his term was).   

Maybe inspiration won't be enough; it may take something like a miracle to pull the country up out of the muck and mire it has been dragged down to in the past eight years, but without inspiration IMHO, there isn't a hope...there isn't a hope in hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:26 AM

I agree with you McGee, 100% and

heric - That is my favorite part of Obama's speech, too. It bears repeating over and over.

"The profound mistake of Reverend Wright's sermons is not that he spoke about racism in our society. It's that he spoke as if our society was static; as if no progress has been made; as if this country - a country that has made it possible for one of his own members to run for the highest office in the land and build a coalition of white and black; Latino and Asian, rich and poor, young and old -- is still irrevocably bound to a tragic past. But what we know -- what we have seen - is that America can change. That is true genius of this nation. What we have already achieved gives us hope - the audacity to hope - for what we can and must achieve tomorrow."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 08:15 AM

heric said:

"First, while he said he heard provocative commentary in sermons with which he disagreed, he made clear that the recent controversial statements, though not described, were far beyond what he had ever personally heard."

Well, the problem with that one for Obama is no one seems to be buying into that part of his speech, which is essentially the same as the statements he immediately put out before the speech, except his core supporters.

Why?

While people probably accept that statement at face value, the problematic part is, they don't believe he didn't know about those incendiary speeches. You see the difference, and why some people think there are politically slippery parts to this speech & Obama's reaction to the Wright videos in general?

OK, so he wasn't in church those days, so therefore didn't HEAR the speeches. But to ask the American public to believe he didn't KNOW about the speeches, especially the one in the wake of 9/11--and especially a politician in the wake of 9/11--well, you can sure sow the seeds of doubt as to Obama's patriotism with that one alone.

It worked for Bush in 2004 to run on 9/11 and stay the course in Iraq, so why wouldn't McCain do the same? And why not have the McCain campaign surrogates hammer the point above home?

The other quote you mention, while it is true that a lot of change has come about in the US in terms of race, what Obama never addresses is class issues. And the picture isn't quite so rosy for poor people, working class people, or middle class people. I think people sort of find the whole "Obama speaks on race" thing to be mostly a "whatever" sort of thing, that isn't really speaking to what their main domestic concerns are right now.

Which isn't race, BTW. It's still "the economy, stupid".

Obama keeps talking about race and Iraq, and he will be toast before long for sure. Because we are already in a recession. Peoples' fears now are about an actual depression.

The economy is free falling, yet this is the quagmire Obama finds himself mired in--being on the defensive about race.

Does anyone here recall why we should feel reassured about President Obama's plans to rescue the economy and us from it?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 08:50 AM

Folks might like to get a Chicago perspective on all this, from an actual Chicago journalist.

Mary Mitchell is a good one, and she has written an editorial column in today's Chicago Sun Times titled:

"Wright caught in undeserved political glare
Whites don't get it, blacks do -- and it's time to move on"

I agree 100% with her assessment regarding Wright. He absolutely does NOT deserve the treatment he is receiving--the demonizing treatment, especially. The man has a great record of activism, and a legacy to be very proud of, and for his friends, family, and parishioners too.

But the problem I'm having with the defense of Wright, is it doesn't speak to people's concerns about Obama's judgment. Not all black churches are activist churches--in fact, most aren't.

On the Sunday following 9/11, you would only have heard that black nationalist brand of fire and brimstone coming from a pulpit of a black activist church. And that is it in a nutshell. Obama made a choice to join an activist church, and never left.

Why?

Obama needed Wright and Trinity to further his political career in Chicago, far more than they needed him as a member. As the current controversy shows.

That is deeply unfair to Wright and Trinity, all of whom have now been deeply wounded by the whole mess. Political ambitions always have consequences.

You can read Mary Mitchell's excellent commentary today at:

www.suntimes.com

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:26 AM

I agree with heric's most recent post and I do believe that Obama did address the class situation of others in this country in his speech. Whether that part of his speech will resonate with those people is still a question but it's not because their concerns (well, some of them) were not addressed.

I do find the critique from the left puzzling. One wonders what Obama is really expected to say that would address their concerns and reach a broader public?

Obama went well beyond what a conventional politician would have done:

Ignore issue with the hope that it would go away (didn't work so well for Kerry)

Reject Rev. Wright's inflammatory statements and toss him to the dogs

And there is a sprinkling of stories in our newspapers from more conservative non-black voters that indicate that his message did resonate.

Everything is still very much in play. Without such a good speech that might not be true today, or tomorrow.

There is an effort in the mass media to demonize Rev. Wright, and by extension his entire congregation. That is regrettable and short-sighted. One doesn't have to be a "believer" to come to my conclusion.

Obama's decision to join such an activist church was certainly a conscious one, but not necessarily a purely political one. But I'm hardly an expert on Chicago politics, or what Obama was thinking 20 years ago. Gigi is probably better qualified to read such tea-leaves.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:44 AM

Obama needed to put "The Wright Issue" forcefully behind him, and then to jump back into the presidential race and, just as forcefully, move ahead. But he didn't.

No matter how heartfelt and honest the speech, no matter how insightful the observations, they were a distraction from the issue, which is not race, it is leadership--

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:50 AM

The "speech" will over time grow wings in this country much like the Gettysburg address. Win or lose, select sections of the wpeech will take on a life of their own and be quoted long into the future.

GWB more than once declared that he was like Lincoln.

Barak will never say such a thing, we already know it in our hearts.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Peace
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 10:11 AM

Well, whether or not the speech is a 'mission accomplished' will be seen a short way down the road. The problem for Obama's camp is to debunk the Hillary NAFTA statements--I didn't support NAFTA when in fact she's on record as having done so; debunking McCain and his 'hawk position on the war. Americans are NOT behind this war any longer. Much the same happened in Vietnam. People will support wars for their survival as nations, but wars meant to enrich prortions of the population at the expense of the rest just don't last long in the "rah, rah" department anymore. See y'all around.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 10:51 AM

Ya know...I personally don't give a s***T about what church Bush goes to, except when he tries to turn the Oval Office into a bully idealogue pulpit to exonerate his stupidity. I don't care about the church Bill Clinton or Hillary goes to. Or anyone else.

One reason is that I seriously believe there should be no spiritual/religiouis test for public office. Apparently these clodbusters who default to jobs in the media don't know about that part of the Constitution, or don't think it is a principle they should respect.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 12:26 PM

Right on, Amos. It's nobody's business what church anyone goes to or what religion they belong to either. That's a private matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 12:26 PM

"Ya know...I personally don't give a s***T about what church Bush goes to, except when he tries to turn the Oval Office into a bully idealogue pulpit to exonerate his stupidity. I don't care about the church Bill Clinton or Hillary goes to. Or anyone else.

One reason is that I seriously believe there should be no spiritual/religiouis test for public office. Apparently these clodbusters who default to jobs in the media don't know about that part of the Constitution, or don't think it is a principle they should respect."

I couldn't agree more. Well said.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 12:45 PM

From NPR:

The most popular video on YouTube has no lip-synching Chinese teenagers, no babies falling over, no drunk cats: It's Barack Obama's speech on race.

So far, the Obama speech has been clicked on 1.6 million times —though it's not possible to tell whether viewers watched all 37 minutes.

There are also more than 4,000 comments, ranging from "Awesome," to "No, we can't," to "Barrack to the Future!!"
...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 12:52 PM

If either of them were Apostolic Pentecostals you would care, Amos. But this is quite clearly not a church of the whacked out variety, even if its political statements might be hard to swallow.

I too hope that we don't have to endure this issue ad nauseum, but it has enlisted me into the Obama program. The Mitchel article from GG was enlightening. As a black Chicagoan, she reports that many people similarly situated to her saw Wright get thrown under a bus, but says nevertheless let's apologize to Wright and move forward. As a white voter from far away, I heard Obama say: "Those are not my words, and I will not throw him or anyone else under a bus." (And in the blink of an eye he punched Geraldine in the nose, hard.)   It was white voters who needed to be mollified and he spoke to them.

The man is brilliant. I will hope against all experience that he is a politician with some level of authenticity. The perception of his rare authenticity is one of the Aces he is holding. Skepticism on that point is entirely rational, so that asset is fragile but very valuable. I think he protected it in this instance.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Peace
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 12:56 PM

"The man is brilliant. I will hope against all experience that he is a politician with some level of authenticity. The perception of his rare authenticity is one of the Aces he is holding. Skepticism on that point is entirely rational, so that asset is fragile but very valuable. I think he protected it in this instance."

Man, you can write!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:05 PM

;) I wish I could sing

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:30 PM

Confusion about Baroque Alabama (humor).


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:31 PM

Obama needed to put "The Wright Issue" forcefully behind him, and then to jump back into the presidential race and, just as forcefully, move ahead. But he didn't.

What does that mean? In what way isn't Obama very much "in the presidential race" - making speeches and no doubt kissing babies and all the rest of it. It just happens there aren't any primaries for a few weeks. A bit like half-time in a game.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jim Lad
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:35 PM

You may be interested in this.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:38 PM

I woudl say, in response to Ted's carp, that Obama demonstrated quintessential leadership. He faced the issue squarely and explored where it came from and what it was made of, and projected the necessary direction and vision which could lead the nation to heal or remedy it, making it clear that it was a slow process, but providsing the starting ground for it.

He also refused to be buffaloed by media flap, right-wing name calling, or other histrionics, kept his eye on the ball, refused to compromise his position, but also refused tog et lured into a zero-sum games condition -- in short he hamdled it as a first-class leader would.

I would say he did, in fact, put the Wright issue behind him, because the truth is it was not a Wright issue, calling for disconnection and refutation, but a race issue, calling for honest, transcendant and transparent clarity, which he largely provided.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Peace
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:44 PM

We shall see what we shall see.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:55 PM

Barack Obama conceded to CNN yesterday that the Jeremiah Wright flap has taken a toll. "In some ways this, this controversy has actually shaken me up a little bit and gotten me back into remembering that the odds of me getting elected have always been lower than some of the other conventional candidates," the Illinois senator told Anderson Cooper

* As the Take Back America conference in Washington wraps up, it appears that progressive activists prefer Obama to Hillary Clinton by a wide margin. A Politico.com straw poll conducted at the event showed Obama ahead by a 3-to-1 margin, 72% to 16%. Moreover, 86% of conference participants said they would be satisfied with Obama as the nominee, while 48% said the same of Clinton.

* Yet another House GOP Republican incumbent is retiring: "GOP sources confirm that Rep. Tom Reynolds, a Western NY Congressman since 1999 and ex-NRCC chairman, will announce around noon tomorrow in Buffalo that he will not seek re-election this fall…. [T]he recent NRCC fraud scandal - some of which took place on his watch - has made his re-election effort that much more difficult in an already tough year."

* A new CBS/NYT poll shows Obama leading Clinton nationally, but his margin has shrunk considerably in the wake of the Wright flap. Obama is now up by just three, 46% to 43%. Nevertheless, the same poll shows Obama leading McCain nationally by five points, while Clinton leads McCain by two.

... (CarpetBaggerreport.com)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 02:41 PM

The only real poll is the one this coming November and if things go they way they are now Obama will make McWar just another also-ran....

But today's new cycle has McWar beating both Hillary and Obama??? Purdy starnge... Wonder how they worded that poll to get those results???

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Peace
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 02:50 PM

Here's the poll, Bobert.

McCain will be the next President (circle one):

                T             T

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 03:45 PM

Azizi,
   Your post of 8:23pm on the 18th brought tears to my eyes.

We had that last time with the whole Bush Gore Florida possible rigged election debacle.

Even if he wins ... he might not win...

Just for the record the Bush Florida possible rigged election was the time before last. LAST time was the Bush Ohio possible rigged election.

Last night on The Colbert Report he ran some footage of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson from Sept. 13, 2001. Two days after the towers fell and these nimrods are talking about how this was God punishing American for tolerating homosexuality. I found this more and offensive than anything Rev. Wright has said. I believe they said something similar about Hurricane Katrina as well. Why is the Right the only ones allowed to use moral indignation as a political tool?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 07:36 PM

"In some ways this, this controversy has actually shaken me up a little bit and gotten me back into remembering that the odds of me getting elected have always been lower than some of the other conventional candidates," the Illinois senator told Anderson Cooper--

Not a winning attitude--

If you want to be president, you have to believe the famous Lombardiism (which really originated with Henry "Red" Sanders), "Winning is not the most important thing, it's the only thing."   And add to that, "Nice guys finish last."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 07:56 PM

"Winning is not the most important thing, it's the only thing."

Exactly the philosophy the Nazis went on. And it worked quite well for them for quite a few years...until they alienated almost the entire rest of the world.

Al Capone subscribed to that philosophy too.

Every scoundrel has his day, I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 08:04 PM

But M.Ted's point remains valid.

Obama can't start licking his wounds now while he's still in with a chance.

People will admire him as long as he stands proud and determined and clear in his mind about where he's going and what he's doing.

The minute he allows room for even the slightest suggestion that he's moaning, making excuses, complaining, whining etc is the moment he will suddenly begin to appear deeply unattractive to everyone.

This is of course a tall order when you have to deflect the kind of crap that comes with his political territory, but so is the job of US president.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 08:17 PM

Don't Americans rather like comebacks? To come back you have to be behind for a bit, down but not out. Worked for Bill Clinton and Hillary earlier was tryiong it - "comeback kid" stuff.

It's in all the movies.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 08:20 PM

The concept that "nice guys finish last" was recently roundly disproven by a series of tests conducted, IIRC, in Massachusetts, using controlled tests and a modified version of the Prisoner's Choice game. As far as I can see he wasn't whining, just voice a little humility, not an unbecoming trait.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 08:21 PM

And to add to my last post,

Obama can't afford to lose momentum.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 08:22 PM

And that was our philosophy when we went up against the Nazis--and didn't someone famous say "we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender,"--

Though it's a little wordier, the sentiment is the same--

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jim Lad
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 08:34 PM

"and didn't someone famous say "we shall not flag or fail..."
Actually: The British Government hired a Winston Churchill impersonator for that speech. Not sure that the man himself even wrote it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 08:36 PM

Yes, that's true, M. Ted. It is EVERYONE's philosophy when they go to war. They think only in terms of winning. And that's natural. (sometimes winning can even involve going quite deliberately to one's own certain death...but the intention is still to win...either materially or morally speaking).

People will interpret Obama's latest comments largely on the basis of their existing emotional bias for or against him, I suspect. That's how it generally works.

What I find interesting about Obama is that his way of presenting himself seems considerably more forthright and honest to me and considerably more thoughtful than what I usually see in politics. He's aiming for a greater level of understanding than the usual very low and predictable mark that is set in political dialogue these days. If a person has decided they don't like Obama, though, that is not what they'll see at all. They will see exactly what their emotional predisposition directs them to see.

Just like me. ;-) Just like you. Just like anybody. We all filter what we see through some kind of prism of our prior judgements, based on our past assumptions and experiences.

I know this for sure. That's why I realize I might be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 08:43 PM

Kinda' hard to tell just how effective his speech was on a National level really as the latest from Gallup and Reuters/Zogby Polls on MSNBC show he has lost ground on all fronts. MSNBC Story with Poll Results

I'm not real sure that he accomplished much with the broadbase American public that Nixon was so fond of, the infamous "Silent Majority." There are a number of news stories stating that general idea but on a personal level I have listened to five conversations in the past couple of days out here in the great unwashed midwest who were left unimpressed.

It was a great speech but its a Catch-22 situation.........The same folks who would demand throwing Wright under the bus would be the first to say he tramped over people to get ahead. Not easy but it will hurt more against McCain the Clinton as the GOP will happily feast on this one through til November.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 08:52 PM

Well, if the past is any guide, malicious gossip and sensationalism will always carry far more weight nationwide than carefully reasoned, calm, and intelligent argument.

I actually think Obama is too intelligent and fair-minded a man to get elected president in the USA. I think the general public (the Great Silent F-ing Majority as Nixon called them) would rather vote in a warmongering ex-military hack or a duplicitous stooge or a cynical insider any time than someone like Obama.

I hope I'm wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:11 PM

See Hawk, I think you're right and that's the problem of course. WE can sit around here and preach to the choir or poke fun at the occasional conservative types but out there in 3D McCain is looking more like the guy who'll help the GOP hold serve.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:25 PM

Barack - means "One who is Blessed by God" in Swahili...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E-g6ezMiq4&feature=related
bob

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:32 PM

That's about how I figure it, Spaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:38 PM

Why am I reminded of a not so old Mudcat thread:

And all the Fox pundits say
They could of had him any day;
They only let him go so long
Out of kindness, I suppose.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:43 PM

Boy...my mother will just go out of her mind if John McCain gets elected president.

She hates rightwingers and promoters of the USA's "War on Terror" as bad as the Israelis hate the Saudia Wahabis...or vice versa.

She'll go right nuts if he gets elected.

Me? I'll just shrug and think, "Yeah, well, I've seen this sort of thing before. They come and go."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Janie
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 10:08 PM

The best thing Clinton and Obama could do for the country at this juncture is draw straws to decide which one of them is going to withdraw their candidacy, grab the one with the short straw for VEEP, and start campaigning for the presidency instead of against each other for the nomination.

I know...wishful thinking.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 10:24 PM

We like people who don't admit defeat, even when the odds, and polls, area against them--The people who reflect on their shortcomings have just lost either the World Series or the Superbowl-

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Janie
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 10:39 PM

It isn't about admitting defeat - it is about common cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 11:03 PM

>>>The best thing Clinton and Obama could do for the country at this juncture is draw straws to decide which one of them is going to withdraw their candidacy, grab the one with the short straw for VEEP, and start campaigning for the presidency instead of against each other for the nomination.

I know...wishful thinking.<<<


Its all on Hillary. She has been tearing down the party since super Tuesday. If she wins the nomination, the only way that is possible is with superdelegates overturning the will of the primary voters. She will no doubt lose the youth vote and the black vote, both justly feeling betrayed and she will have almost no chance at beating McCain. McCain beats her on every factor that she beats Obama.

If the Clintons cared as much about the country as they do about themselves, she would have done that already.

In sane world she can't say "Put me on top of the ticket because I won a few more delegates in Ohio."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 11:19 PM

M Ted is right about that. I hope defeatism is not the new liberal credo. Obviously it can be a self-fulfilling prophecy--look at the French in 1940.

Obama is still beating McCain---(it's not McWar, by the way)--by more than Hillary is--per the latest polls.

And the ones which have her ahead, as Bobert and others have pointed out, were taken before the speech which is this thread's topic.

More telling will be what the situation looks like at the weekend.

Also, her path to the nomination is narrowing--especially with the MI and FL options fading.

Obama is still, by far, the better choice for the general election against McCain.


Now, to the topic itself:

Obviously the main attack point on Obama is the allegation that he sat in that church for 20 years of anti-white or anti-American hate messages.

This is total drivel. If there were such a pattern, do you not think we'd have heard more than just the post-11 Sept outburst?   I suspect somehow that Hannity, etc. would have been broadcasting as many examples as they could find.

But it's still the same sound-bytes over and over.

Whereas, for instance, as has been noted by other posters, the anti-homosexual rantings of Falwell are easily found--in profusion.


Obama--and any reasonable person--totally rejects the bile about "chickens coming home to roost" or "God damn America". (Nor was he there when Wright made the outrageous remarks. )

Of course I do also--but I'm also against political correctness in general--as in changing words to songs since the original words are objectionable now.

However, as seems to be happening on political threads, some posters are commenting from ignorance--or just seeking justification of their own prejudices--"church that seems to base its message on a doctrine of hatred".

It's interesting that the posters most upset by Wright's comments are also the ones who have consistently bad-mouthed Obama and his chances from the start, gleefully citing every crackpot rumor about him--while of course, being "only the messenger". Raises the suspicion that they have been desperately seeking a reason with some basis for opposing Obama, and now believe they've found it.

But the real question is what has been the actual long-term attitude of the church. The answer is that there have been instances of a far more standard approach--the sort associated with Christianity by people who actually attend church. For some people no other statements could offset that vile outburst. But the fact is that there have been far more classically Christian messages by Wright at that church--"Christ did not come just for black folks. He did not come just for white folks.   All people".

Also, while waiting in line for the Obama rally at the U of MD, I was talking to a family--white man, black woman, who are members of Wright's church. The white man obviously did not leave after the outburst in question--nor has he heard rants since then which would convince him to leave.

If I were Obama, I'd be looking in the videos of Wright's sermons for more examples of inclusive Christianity--white, black, all races welcomed by Jesus. And I'd broadcast some of them.

Interestingly, even "God damn America" can be seen in a theological context--Jeremiah. Was Jeremiah preaching a "doctrine of hatred" when he warned that Jerusalem would fall? Were his threats of punishments to be inflicted on Judah proof that he hated the Jews?

It's fairly evident that some actually believe Obama has not addressed the Wright problem sufficiently. But some, including some Mudcatters, are, as I said, seeking justification for their own abysmally ignorant attitudes--or their prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 11:33 PM

I swear I had not seen the Daily Show when I osted a comparison with the Gettysburg address.


In defense of the Pastor when he said that the CIA imports cocaine and heroin and then arrests US users and puts them in jail where they have to work for $15 a month like slaves...

well thats all true. The CIA admitted it, the prisons brag about it, and I have it on film as do many people.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 11:49 PM

Sorry Ron but here's the Latest Gallup which shows McCain leading both and Clinton leading Obama. Now I don't give two shits about the polls but as political fodder for the news spinners they go a long way.

But in case you missed what I said before, I am willing to bet that in Nixon's "Silent Majority" out here in the fuckin' heartland, McCain fares even better. Feel free to think I'm a neocon/middle roader or just plain abysmally ignorant as I may well be the last. On the other hand I'm a radical leftist who believes the system is in need of revolution and not just a few improvements.

"The people will fancy an appearance of freedom; Illusion will be their native land."......Jacques Ellul


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 12:04 AM

I swear I refreshed the Obama Plummets thread and posted to it but it didn't show up so I'll say the same thing here.

On NBC News tonight they had a segment on whether Senator Clinton has a chance of getting the nomination.

Senator Obama, they said, leads in states, popular vote and delegates. Senator Clinton leads - but only slightly - in Superdelegates.

This would be true, they said, even if as expected she takes Pennsylvania.

So what gives?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 06:48 AM

We like people who don't admit defeat, even when the odds, and polls, area against them

That's about determination and defiance, not about forced optimism. "We shall overcome" isn't about some notion of effortlessly crushing the opposition.

"Little man beats the big man every time, if he's in the right and keeps a-coming."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 08:00 AM

Another view, from the Washington Post:

Another Angry Black Preacher

By E. J. Dionne Jr.
Friday, March 21, 2008; Page A17

Let's ask the hard question about the Rev. Jeremiah Wright: Is he as far outside the African American mainstream as many of us would like to think?

Because Barack Obama's speech on race in America was so candid about both the legitimacy of black and white grievances -- and the flaws in those grievances -- it carried the risk of offending almost everyone.

A man who, by parentage, is half black and half white took it upon himself to explain each side's story to the other. Obama resembled no one so much as the conciliatory sibling in a large and boisterous family, shouting: "Please, please, will you listen to each other for a sec?"

One of the least remarked upon passages in Obama's speech is also one of the most important -- and the part most relevant to the Wright controversy. There is, Obama said, a powerful anger in the black community rooted in "memories of humiliation and doubt" that "may not get expressed in public, in front of white co-workers or white friends" but "does find voice in the barbershop or the beauty shop or around the kitchen table. . . . And occasionally it finds voice in the church on Sunday morning, in the pulpit and in the pews."

Yes, black people say things about our country and its injustices to each other that they don't say to those of us who are white. Whites also say things about blacks privately that they don't say in front of their black friends and associates.

One black leader who was capable of getting very angry indeed is the one now being invoked against Wright. His name was Martin Luther King Jr.

An important book on King's rhetoric by Barnard College professor Jonathan Rieder, due out next month, offers a more complex view of King than the sanitized version that is so popular, especially among conservative commentators. In "The Word of the Lord Is Upon Me," Rieder -- an admirer of King -- notes that the civil rights icon was "not just a crossover artist but a code switcher who switched in and out of idioms as he moved between black and white audiences."

Listen to what King said about the Vietnam War at his own Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta on Feb. 4, 1968: "God didn't call America to engage in a senseless, unjust war. . . . And we are criminals in that war. We've committed more war crimes almost than any nation in the world, and I'm going to continue to say it. And we won't stop it because of our pride and our arrogance as a nation. But God has a way of even putting nations in their place." King then predicted this response from the Almighty: "And if you don't stop your reckless course, I'll rise up and break the backbone of your power."

If today's technology had existed then, I would imagine the media playing quotations of that sort over and over. Right-wing commentators would use the material to argue that King was anti-American and to discredit his call for racial and class justice. King certainly angered a lot of people at the time.

I cite King not to justify Wright's damnation of America or his lunatic and pernicious theories but to suggest that Obama's pastor and his church are not as far outside the African American mainstream as many would suggest. I would also ask my conservative friends who praise King so lavishly to search their consciences and wonder if they would have stood up for him in 1968.

These are realities that Obama has forced us to confront, and they are painful. Wright was operating within a long tradition of African American outrage, which is one reason Obama could not walk away from his old pastor in the name of political survival. Obama's personal closeness to Wright would have made such a move craven in any event.

I'm a liberal, and I loathe the anti-American things Wright said precisely because I believe that the genius of our country is its capacity for self-correction. Progressivism and, yes, hope itself depend on a belief that personal conversion and social change are possible, that flawed human beings are capable of transcending their pasts and their failings.

Obama understands the anger of whites as well as the anger of blacks, but he's placed a bet on the other side of King's legacy that converted rage into the search for a beloved community. This does not prove that Obama deserves to be president. It does mean that he deserves to be judged on his own terms and not by the ravings of an angry preacher.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 08:03 AM

And of course, one you can disagree with...

Washington Post:

The Speech: A Brilliant Fraud

By Charles Krauthammer
Friday, March 21, 2008; Page A17

The beauty of a speech is that you don't just give the answers, you provide your own questions. "Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes." So said Barack Obama, in his Philadelphia speech about his pastor, friend, mentor and spiritual adviser of 20 years, Jeremiah Wright.

An interesting, if belated, admission. But the more important question is: which"controversial" remarks?

Wright's assertion from the pulpit that the U.S. government invented HIV "as a means of genocide against people of color"? Wright's claim that America was morally responsible for Sept. 11 -- "chickens coming home to roost" -- because of, among other crimes, Hiroshima and Nagasaki? (Obama says he missed church that day. Had he never heard about it?) What about the charge that the U.S. government (of Franklin Roosevelt, mind you) knew about Pearl Harbor, but lied about it? Or that the government gives drugs to black people, presumably to enslave and imprison them?

Obama condemns such statements as wrong and divisive, then frames the next question: "There will no doubt be those for whom my statements of condemnation are not enough. Why associate myself with Reverend Wright in the first place, they may ask? Why not join another church?"

But that is not the question. The question is why didn't he leave that church? Why didn't he leave -- why doesn't he leave even today -- a pastor who thundered not once but three times from the pulpit (on a DVD the church proudly sells) "God damn America"? Obama's 5,000-word speech, fawned over as a great meditation on race, is little more than an elegantly crafted, brilliantly sophistic justification of that scandalous dereliction.

His defense rests on two central propositions: (a) moral equivalence and (b) white guilt.

(a) Moral equivalence. Sure, says Obama, there's Wright, but at the other "end of the spectrum" there's Geraldine Ferraro, opponents of affirmative action and his own white grandmother, "who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe." But did she shout them in a crowded theater to incite, enrage and poison others?

"I can no more disown [Wright] than I can my white grandmother." What exactly was Grandma's offense? Jesse Jackson himself once admitted to the fear he feels from the footsteps of black men on the street. And Harry Truman was known to use epithets for blacks and Jews in private, yet is revered for desegregating the armed forces and recognizing the first Jewish state since Jesus's time. He never spread racial hatred. Nor did Grandma.

Yet Obama compares her to Wright. Does he not see the moral difference between the occasional private expression of the prejudices of one's time and the use of a public stage to spread racial lies and race hatred?

(b) White guilt. Obama's purpose in the speech was to put Wright's outrages in context. By context, Obama means history. And by history, he means the history of white racism. Obama says, "We do not need to recite here the history of racial injustice in this country," and then he proceeds to do precisely that. What lies at the end of his recital of the long train of white racial assaults from slavery to employment discrimination? Jeremiah Wright, of course.

This contextual analysis of Wright's venom, this extenuation of black hate speech as a product of white racism, is not new. It's the Jesse Jackson politics of racial grievance, expressed in Ivy League diction and Harvard Law nuance. That's why the speech made so many liberal commentators swoon: It bathed them in racial guilt while flattering their intellectual pretensions. An unbeatable combination.

But Obama was supposed to be new. He flatters himself as a man of the future transcending the anger of the past as represented by his beloved pastor. Obama then waxes rhapsodic about the hope brought by the new consciousness of the young people in his campaign. Then answer this, Senator: If Wright is a man of the past, why would you expose your children to his vitriolic divisiveness? This is a man who curses America and who proclaimed moral satisfaction in the deaths of 3,000 innocents at a time when their bodies were still being sought at Ground Zero. It is not just the older congregants who stand and cheer and roar in wild approval of Wright's rants, but young people as well. Why did you give $22,500 just two years ago to a church run by a man of the past who infects the younger generation with precisely the racial attitudes and animus you say you have come unto us to transcend?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 10:02 AM

Jeeze, what a windy exegesis; and as so often in such efforts, a complete miss. Talk about not getting the concept. Wow.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 10:13 AM

Photo of the month -- Billy Meets Pastor Wright in WHite House.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: DannyC
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 10:34 AM

The Clintons and the GOP are merely different sides of the same coin. They have each demonstrated that they will quickly and coldly burn human flesh for their own selfish political gain.

The media continues to soldier on with its flogging of Barack Obama. I am beginning to be reminded of the words of Albert Camus regarding events of a separate age: "It was in Spain that men learned that one can be right and still be beaten, that force can vanquish spirit, that there are times when courage is not its own reward. It is this, without doubt, which explains why so many men throughout the world regard the Spanish drama as a personal tragedy."

I'll continue to work and hope that - in our age - it won't be so...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 11:11 AM

Good quote, DannyC.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 11:27 AM

Comment by M. K. Asante, Professor, African American Studies, Temple U.

"Barack Obama at Constitution Center: A Historic Encounter with America - Mar 20, 2008

Obama's address at the Constitution Center in Philadelphia will take its place alongside the great addresses in American history. One thinks of Lincoln at Gettysburg, Frederick Douglass on the Fourth of July in Rochester, Booker T. Washington at the Atlanta Exposition in 1895, John F. Kennedy's Inaugural Address, Martin Luther King in 1963, and perhaps five or six other speeches that have elevated the best instincts in the American nation, when one considers Barack Obama's address on the 18th of March, 2008. The speech was remarkable for its judicious and careful use of language and its perfect tone for the occasion. He not only answered questions regarding his relationship with his imperfect pastor, he told us of his own imperfection, and that of his grandmother whom he loves and admires. I am not so much struck by the fact that Obama spoke on the question of race; I am particularly astonished that he did not speak like a politician, but like an ordinary human grappling with the complexities of historical racism in America and what it has done to the American psyche. This was a courageous, audacious, and brilliant exposition of the type we have come not to expect of our politicians. Barack Obama raised the ante, exalted the thinking of the political arena and showed us what a presidential address could look like if a person was bold enough to tread and lead where others refused to go. I am sure that the Constitution Center speech will be studied, cited, and referred to for many years to come."

Looks like somebody got it, anyway.




A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 11:36 AM

"he did not speak like a politician, but like an ordinary human grappling with the complexities of historical racism in America and what it has done to the American psyche."

That's exactly the impression I got too. That's what's so striking about Obama...he talks like a real human being, not like a politician. He talks like he is actually thinking seriously about the matter at hand rather than just trying to sink the next strategic shot (at someone else) and jack up his PR ratings.

This is so rare in the political scene that to see it happening is kind of breathtaking as far as I'm concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 11:37 AM

Make no mistake about it, Amos, ol' buddy... Everyone got it... Some are just in denial...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 12:11 PM

What bothers, me, Bobert, is the raucous volume of the denial. It is like standing in the middle of Times Square at rush hour, trying to hear an apple blossom. The flogging of American ignorance and insensitivity is a national disgrace, and it has been forwarded by every channel of the MSM.

Oh, dear. IS this disillusionment with the Establishment raising its ugly head? I hope not. :D

I try to recognize that each instance of blindered obtuseness in the writing public, whether for MSN, WaPO, or some blog somewhere, is a matter of individual reactance. It's like rabid chipmunks or something. Once they start off being rabid, nothign else matters.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 12:16 PM

Obama: BBC Recap...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-ls64uNs4A&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 01:32 PM

Heard on NPR this morning (just a few minutes ago, in fact):

"A prominent politician (Obama), in his speech about racism, has just talked to the American public as if they were adults. This is a refreshing change."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 01:44 PM

Perhaps I haven't been listening hard enough or to the right things, but there doesn't seem to be much if anything in Rev Wright's preaching that sounds like racism. At any rate none of the picked up in those articles bruce cut and pasted would qualify.

Some of the charges laid against the US government might be mistake or over the top, but what's racist about that? If a white preacher said that America was at fault in those ways, and did not deserve to be "blessed", would that be racist? And yet "racist" is the term being used, presumably because it is seen as the most damaging.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 02:00 PM

Yeah... ;-) It's THE word people in our society use to brand others when they wish to do them permanent damage. It's like calling someone a "witch" in Salem...or an "apostate" during the religious wars in medieval times. The target of such a branding word, even if they're completely innocent of the charge, becomes like someone thrown into quicksand...they harder they struggle, the faster they sink.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 02:17 PM

You make an excellent point, Little Hawk.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 03:07 PM

From a CNN commentator, an excellent perspective:

"There is no doubt that a lot of Americans are angry and confused by Obama staying at Trinity United Church of Christ and not disowning his pastor.

Folks, that's just not what church folks do. I don't recall folks asking members of the Rev. Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson to leave their churches in droves. They knew their leaders are fallible and make mistakes. Should they be criticized for hateful and divisive comments? Absolutely. Disowned?

I would never say that.

This is an opportunity for us. Those of us in the media, as Obama said, can continue to run the same clips, but is that providing healing to America?

No.

What we can do is begin to show where communities are coming together, talking openly and honestly about their hurts, frustrations and pain. Will we get angry and upset because of the other person isn't fully getting what we are trying to say? Of course! But until we decide to look in that mirror, and confront our deep-seated fears of the other because of their race, religion and political affiliation, we'll remain a fractured nation.

The Bible says don't put new wine in old wine skins. So let's stop using the resentments and anger of the past against the people of today and the future.

So, what are YOU prepared to do?"


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 03:18 PM

I've known a lot of ministers, pastors, priests, and preachers, many of whom had a lot of good things to say, but I've never met one who could walk on water.

Well, I have heard tell of this one guy, but that was a while back.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 03:44 PM

I seem to remember an old minister saying, "Well, I can walk on water but I'm not sure I can walk on so much beer."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 06:48 PM

Bill Richardson - "A Once-in-a-Lifetime Opportunity for Our Nation..."
http://youtube.com/watch?v=smZGgzdNyA8&feature=bz303

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 07:14 PM

Amos and all others: Please observe the Copy and Paste suggestions in the FAQ. The political threads are especially bad right now. A tiny snip and your personal comments with the link only please.

Huffington Post:

Obama Offers a Progressive Vision of Patriotism
By Drew Westen, Huffington Post. Posted March 21, 2008.

Obama's brilliant discussion of race, class and patriotism shows substance unlike any politician in recent history.

I watched Barack Obama's speech Tuesday morning intently. The "pre-game show" of cable commentators predicted a somewhat grim outcome. What could Obama say that could possibly overcome his association with the words of his pastor, Jeremiah Wright? Would he throw his pastor on the train tracks? And even if he did, would he still suffer from guilt by association?

But then, for 45 minutes, I saw a man who for days had appeared somewhat at sea, buffeted by waves that relentlessly pushed him off course, seem to find his compass and chart a course directly into the eye of the storm. I saw a man with the inner confidence, and the steadiness of a captain who knew he was sailing on uncharted waters but needed to go there anyway, take the nation with him and land them safely on the shore.

The pundits were clearly stunned. They knew they had witnessed something extraordinary, a moment when time seemed to stand still and a politician in the midst of a withering electoral storm did the unspeakable: he spoke the truth. The unspoken, unspeakable truth. He told the nation that he understood what was happening in white barber shops and black barber shops, around white water coolers and black water coolers, and that we are neither free from our prejudices nor merely prejudiced in our respective grievances, and that in both our prejudices and our grievances, we have more in common than we know.

With the exception of commentators who pride themselves on their bigotry, the speech drew immediate, nearly universal acclaim, and I suspect that its lasting impact will mirror its initial impact. But as the great French sociologist Emil Durkheim described it, we live our lives in the realm of the profane, punctuated by moments of sanctity, only to return again to everyday life. And by nightfall, as I listened to reports of the speech on television, many of the talking heads had returned to the realm of the literal, the crass, and the profane: Did he distance himself enough from Reverend Wright? Did he condemn his former pastor enough to reassure white voters?

But the speech wasn't about Reverend Wright, even though the controversy surrounding pieces of his sermons was the impetus for it. Obama delivered a message that spoke to the conflicts and contradictions around race that have existed since the earliest days of this nation, and he delivered it in a personal way that spoke to his own history and his own complex response to his pastor's messages over many years. The speech brought to mind a passage written by the psychoanalyst Erik Erikson a half century ago in his psychobiography of Martin Luther, which could just as easily have been written last night. Erikson was describing that ineffable quality we call charisma, and the way an individual life history sometimes converges with the historical moment: "Now and again," Erikson wrote, "an individual is called upon (called upon by whom, only theologians claim to know, and by what only bad psychologists)," to lift his personal conflicts to the level of cultural conflicts, "and to try to solve for all what he could not solve for himself alone."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 08:18 PM

Last night I watched a speech that Senator Obama made yesterday at a university in Massachusetts (?). It was a good one and well received. I was glad to see that he discussed McCain's positions far more than he did Senator Clinton's.

I think it's time for both Clinton and Obama to do that. Let us see what options we have.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Janie
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 08:35 PM

I agree, Ebbie. And if they don't, they are simply doing McCain's campaigning for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: DougR
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 01:32 AM

Obama is slicker than slick Willie. I don't think he will slide into the White House, however.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 01:36 AM

DougR:

Your defamation is -- IMHO -- an indication of your jaded fixed thinking; it is not up to simple recognition of a human being.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 07:57 AM

Wouldn't you agree, Doug, that we should never feel that because we disagree with someone's politics we should feel it necessary to despise them? Or conversely that just because we agree with someone's politics we should feel it necessary to admire them.

Maybe it would be interesting to have a thread in which we could list people we disagree with and admire, and people we agree with and despise.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 08:58 AM

Play nice, Dougie...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 12:14 PM

I knew Republican smear campaigners would use that 'Slick Willie' smear on Obama. To such people, if you're a Republican and you give good speeches, you're a great speaker (the Republican perception of Reagan, for instance). If you're a Democrat and you give good speeches, you're 'slick'. Smear tactics are slimy. People who use smear tactics are slimy.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 12:27 PM

Perhaps, Doug, you're not used to hearing a political figure who actually believes in something--other than figments of his own imaginations like "Evil Empires" and "welfare Cadillacs".

And who talks about issues in something above a bumper sticker approach. Sorry if it's too hard for you to grasp. Though that's not surprising.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Hold On!!!
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 12:29 PM

Click for Barack

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 12:31 PM

Amos isn't going to tolerate anyone who doesn't shout Obama's praises from the rooftops, DougR-but you knew that;-)

Drew Western's article is the kind of after-the-fact political spin that would have offended Amos if it was about anyone but Obama-

The sad fact is, Obama failed to put the problem behind him, as evidenced by the fact that people are still talking about Wright, and showing those wonderful clips five days after Obama was supposed to put the issue to rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 12:35 PM

GUEST,Eyes on the Prize, here's that hyperlink:

http://ky.barackobama.com/KYmorevoicesvideo

-snip-

The video is about Barack Obama's community work in Chicago with Project Vote. That community project to register new voters occcurred just after Obama had graduated from Harvard's Law school.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 12:50 PM

Geeziz..............Sorry Doug. I don't agree with you myself but considering some of the other things said about Clinton and McCain around here I felt you were just throwing in the easy jab, perhaps even from a humrous angle????

Maybe someone could tell me how Doug's post was nasty and rude and all??????


Spaw---NASCAR Voter

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 12:55 PM

M. Ted--

You show your own naivete. Of course "people" will still show that video. It's in their interest to do so---and they would have continued to do it no matter what Obama said, as I think you actually know.

And if there are people who now say they will not vote for Obama, there are also people who say he has won them over as a result of that speech.

If Obama has made an error, it seems to me, as I said before, that the error is neglecting to broadcast the examples of inclusive Christianity given other times by Wright--giving the lie to the widespread slander that sitting in that church was listening to 20 years of anti-American and anti-white diatribes.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 01:03 PM

I think it would be wise to flood the internet with the most compassionate clips of Wright they could find.

M. Ted, I tolerate all kinds of people with all kids of perspectives. I do not like slanted, bitter jabs, covertly destructive remarks (even when mine) or irational assertions designed to manipulate people into shared bitterness.

Obama is not a perfect human being. But he is head and shoulders abetter human being than any of the other contenders on either side of the division.


ANd I think it is about time we had a better human being in charge.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 01:09 PM

I'm not an Obama supporter, but I just hate it when people try to dumb down political discourse by calling intelligent speech making 'slick'. And I hate smear politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 01:12 PM

BTW, I'm not even a Democrat. I'm one of the independent voters (not Independent Party, but independent as in 'unafilliated') who votes my conscience rather than by party affiliation.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 01:13 PM

Doug is like a rabbit on a firing range here, Spaw. Every time he sticks his fuzzy little conservative little out of his hole, wiggles his nose, and takes a look around, all hell breaks loose as a battalion of sneering Elmer Fudds take aim with every weapon at their disposal and blast away. ;-) It's like the first scene in "Saving Private Ryan". LOL!

This place needs a few isolated individuals like Doug, just so the mainstream here have someone to vent their inner rage upon. He gives us the catharsis we all secretly yearn for. That's my theory.

I thought Obama's speech was wonderful. The man truly impresses me. He's one of the very few politicians I've heard who seems to actually think about things deeply rather than just utter predictable slogans, and one of the very few who talks to an audience of Americans as if he were talking to mature adults.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 01:27 PM

DougR's not a conservative, LH. He's a radical.   ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: heric
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 01:36 PM

>Perhaps I haven't been listening hard enough or to the right things, but there doesn't seem to be much if anything in Rev Wright's preaching that sounds like racism. At any rate none of the picked up in those articles bruce cut and pasted would qualify.<

You can name it race baiting if you prefer, but telling your parishioners that the Federal government is using manufactured biological weapons to kill you (if you are a person of color) is a tad . . . what's the best word?

Looney?

(Barack addressed a near-impossible conundrum.)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 01:53 PM

Very few rabbits pop their heads up to intentionally draw fire.

>>>Doug is like a rabbit on a firing range here, Spaw. Every time he sticks his fuzzy little conservative little out of his hole, wiggles his nose, and takes a look around, all hell breaks loose as a battalion of sneering Elmer Fudds take aim with every weapon at their disposal and blast away. ;-)<<<

If the rabbit were just looking around, I might agree with you. But no, he is throwing stink bombs and trying to draw attack.

I don't see the people who respond as Elmer Fudds any more than I would elevate Doug's tactics to the giddy rhetorical heights of Bugs Bunnydom.

DougR is afflicted with that all too common Internet syndrome I call Assburglar's, that is he steals lines from the Asses on talk radio and tosses them into Internet discussions as if they were his own.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 01:55 PM

Actually Carol, Doug is over on the side of "Reactionary" which loosely means an Ultra Conservative.........Were he a bit moreso he would be very close to the same positions held by "Radicals" who might be thought of as Ultra Liberal. Both hold many very similar beliefs but they arrived there through different means.

I agree with you Hawk and I think Doug needs an award sometimes around here for not completely flying off the handle {;<))

Spaw---NASCAR Voter

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 02:00 PM

I don't know, catspaw. He supports the NeoCons and they're radicals who got to where they are by first being Socialists.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 02:01 PM

"Very few rabbits pop their heads up to intentionally draw fire."

Bugs Bunny does! And that's who I'm comparing Doug to. He just can't resist popping his head up...and people just can't resist opening fire when he does.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 02:01 PM

Correction: I aaid above that Obama had spoken in Massachusetts the other night- it, of course, was at the University of West Virginia.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 02:27 PM

Spawzer, given the general tenor of conservative epithets about Clinton, such as "slick willy: with iits crude sexual overtones, it should be plain that the invidious parallel Douggielad decided to draw with Obama was intended as defamatory, as well as being unintentionally delusory.


In case there is some question about what Obama actually stands for, here's a brief excerpt from his Convention Center Speech:

"This was one of the tasks we set forth at the beginning of this campaign Ð to continue the long march of those who came before us, a march for a more just, more equal, more free, more caring and more prosperous America. I chose to run for the presidency at this moment in history because I believe deeply that we cannot solve the challenges of our time unless we solve them together Ð unless we perfect our union by understanding that we may have different stories, but we hold common hopes; that we may not look the same and we may not have come from the same place, but we all want to move in the same direction Ð towards a better future for our children and our grandchildren.

This belief comes from my unyielding faith in the decency and generosity of the American people. But it also comes from my own American story....".

I'd like to know what it is about this platform that Doug R thinks deserves ridicule.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 02:55 PM

Hawk,

To paraphrase a politician.

I know Bugs Bunny and DougR is no Bugs Bunny. Bugs didn't steal his lines from Limbaugh, Hannity and O'Reilly.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 03:02 PM

Heh... now that I think about it, I think DougR is a bit of a pinko himself. He supports big government. He used to work for the government, so he got his living paid for by the taxpayers. If he got his excellent health insurance from a government job, even his health care is paid for by the taxpayers. Yup. Sounds like a socialist to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 03:05 PM

Well, Jack, he's not as slick as Bugs Bunny, I'll admit that. Nothing sticks to that wabbit.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 03:15 PM

These clips give some perspective on the Rev Wright clips.

Rev Wright

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: meself
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 03:32 PM

Um, people: ... don't you think you're getting a little carried away in your response to one snide, obviously partisan, remark?

I'm just sayin' ...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: heric
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 03:34 PM

... can't we all just get along

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 03:42 PM

DougR has a healthy sense of humor, which is pretty much required of anyone who contributes *anything* to Mudcat--

And anyway, if you call Bush "Shrub", and Nixon "Tricky Dick", you've got no business objecting to "Slick Willy"--


And I'm not naive, Ron Davies, I know that people will show the video as long as they think that they can get mileage out of it--Obama needs to be able to let the air out of the tires of any issue that gets ahead of him on the road to the White House--

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 03:43 PM

DougR likes it when we play rough. He told me so himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 04:03 PM

A certain measure of goodwill, combined with a sense of humour (about both oneself and others), is pretty vital to maintaining a reasonable political discussion around here...or probably anywhere. It keeps things from turning just downright ugly.

I expect a certain amount of duplicity from all political candidates. Their job requires it. I don't expect whoever I'm backing to be perfect. Such expectations would be unrealistic.

Obama ain't perfect...but as they go, he's a lot more impressive than most.

Now take my guy Chongo. FAR from perfect! But, hey, that's part of his simian charm. Chongo makes no apologies for being what he is, but he won't let you down in a jam.

I don't think Obama will let you down in a jam either. We'll see...if he gets elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: heric
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 04:10 PM

>I don't think Obama will let you down in a jam either.<

That's what I'm thinking. Everything will be all fucked up under any scenario, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 08:37 PM

These clips give some perspective on the Rev Wright clips.

Wouldn't open for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 01:30 PM

"David Eisenhower teaches a class at the University of Pennsylvania on American political speeches. Senator Barack Obama, with his address last week on race and politics, gave him a new course.

"It was a very powerful speech," said Eisenhower, whose grandfather was president of the United States and supreme allied commander in World War II. "Obama gives a very compelling reason as to why this is his time."

(International Herald Tribune)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 01:40 PM

It works for me McGrath.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/231/story_23112_1.html?WT.mc_id=HOMELEAD2

Here is the url. Maybe you can go to Belief net and search on "Wright."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 01:41 PM

Eisenhower's granddaughter, Susan (a Republican), has endorsed Obama as well...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/01/AR2008020102621.html

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 01:43 PM

It looks like the L.A. Times is picking up on Obama's challenge to continue the discussion on race.

Check out the photo essay. What a huge and wonderful crowd!

LA Times on race.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 03:44 PM

Unfortunately the clips do not help the cause. What should be established is that Wright's church--and his attitude--was not anti-white or anti-American---and that therefore to extrapolate from a few outbursts to 20 years of sermons is not reasonable. There are clips which support this, but these are not they.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 12:52 AM

Even Peggy Newnan liked the speech!

The discussion on Meet the Press.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jim Lad
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 01:29 AM

Maybe the good Reverend Wright should come out of hiding.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 01:38 AM

>>>
Maybe the good Reverend Wright should come out of hiding.<<<

What makes you think he is hiding?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 02:04 AM

My understanding is he is giving public sermons; what does he have to hide about. Those who know him and the context in which he spoke know what an empty wind the noise being raised around him is. He knows it, as well.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 07:13 AM

"Maybe the good Reverend Wright should come out of hiding."

                He can't. If he does he'll blow Obama's cover too!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 08:20 AM

If Wright has given "racist sermons" how come the clips picked out by Fox and suchlike to demonstrate that don't seem to show this?

There is nothing racist about denouncing the slave trade and segregation. Nothing racist about saying that America and that some of those help explain why there have been terrorist attacks on the USA. Nothing racist about reminding people of medical experiments which have been carried out on black people which have caused suffering and death. Nothing racist with using terms like "state terrorism" to refer to what has sometimes been done by governments.

Some of Wright's rhetoric has gone over the top, some of his accusations are shaky or just plain wrong - but that is not what accusations of "racism are about.

I've never thought making videos of sermons is a very good idea. Asking for trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 11:15 AM

Good point, McGrath--even the blandest religious doctrines and theologies have spawned bitter conflicts--if you put these ideas in a video, sooner or later, someone with a contrary view will see it, and all Hell will break loose--better to publish them in a book, where no one will ever see them--

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 11:50 AM

Neither Obama nor Wright are in hiding, and this is just snide noise, Rig. And you know it full well.

Wright's passion, viewed in full context with the long history of other lectures and comapssionate acts he has produced over the years, would create a very different profile int he public mind. So the Clinton/Republican machinery of war has once again seriously damaged the repute of someone who deserved better.

Viewing things in context is nopt something Fox-heads do very well at all; their specialty is pushbutton reaction.

If we are to govern the nation on this principle,k we will be at war again and again, just as McCain projects. Perhaps it is time for a saner hand on the helm, don't you think? SOmeone who can assess the place of events in history and context without jumping like a frightened hare every time somethign creaks?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 05:14 PM

Some words missing from my last post:

Nothing racist about saying that America and that some of those help explain why there have been terrorist attacks on the USA

should have read: Nothing racist about saying that America has done some terrible things at times (what nation hasn't) and that some of those things help explain why there have been terrorist attacks on the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 05:40 PM

Geez, Louise. Wright isn't running for anything. Ferraro isn't running for anything. Just listen to the candidates who are running.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 05:55 PM

Here's a YouTube clip of Mike Huckabee talking about all this - confirming my gut feeling that, set aside politics, Huckabee is basically a pretty decent kind of a man.

...I'm gonna be probably the only conservative in America who's gonna say something like this, but I'm just tellin' you — we've gotta cut some slack to people who grew up being called names, being told you have to sit in the balcony when you go to the movie, you have to go to the back door to go into the restaurant...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 06:12 PM

Good stuff. Huckabee has always impressed me as a good man, and what he says there is very fair-minded. He's not cynically using the situation, as he could, to damage Obama's run for the presidency. This speaks very well for Mike Huckabee.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 06:22 PM

I saw a part of the speech in a longer context, and he isn't saying what people think he's saying. At least not the part where he talks about the chickens coming home to roost (which, by the way, is a quote from someone else - an ambasador who is White). He's telling his congregants that we have caused a lot of suffering for a lot of people in other countries, and that, now that we are experiencing suffering in turn (that Rev. Wright suggests we are at least partly responsible for), we should follow Christian teachings when we decide how to respond. He is saying that we should not respond in a way that will result in the killing of a lot of innocent people, especially children.

I can't see anything wrong with this part of the speech myself.

The part where he says "God damn America", I have also heard in a longer context, but I need to hear what comes after that line before I can say what I think about that part of the speech, and I haven't heard that yet.

Here's the longer version of the first one...

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/election08/80481/

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 06:44 PM

When an African-American speaker, whether a minister or not, talks about chickens coming home to roost in front of an African-American audience, it is always an allusion to this: Malcolm's "Chickens Coming Home to Roost" Speech and, particularly, his comments after the speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 06:56 PM

What did the expression mean before that speech was given, Ted? It's been in common parlance for centuries, amongst both whites and blacks.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 07:01 PM

Ted Amos,

a couple of minutes before he says that, Wright references Malcolm X's speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 07:02 PM

Ah. I withdraw my quibble in this instance, then. Thanks.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 07:27 PM

It was the White ambassador who was quoting the speech from Malcolm X. Wright was quoting the ambassador. He says so in his speech. If you watch it and listen to it, you can see/hear for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 07:34 PM

Very appropriate that a preacher called Jeremiah should supply a Jeremiad, defined as "a speech expressing a bitter lament or a righteous prophecy of doom".

As for "God Damn America", there's nothing this Jeremiah sees to have said about America that is any fiercer than what the prophet Jeremiah said about the Kingdom of Judah and its rulers. And it didn't make him too popular at the time either.

Ironically enough, the Jeremiad is a very time-hallowed American tradition of preaching - see here: Forms of Puritan Rhetoric: The Jeremiad and the Conversion Narrative.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 08:04 PM

And thanks Carol for that link to the extended version of two sermons from which clips have been wrenched out of context and have been used to cause the most damage. Set in context the effect of the words is dramatically different.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 08:45 PM

The real scope of those clips makes it stunningly clear that the whole flap has been promulgated on a scandal, a slander caused by intentionally omitting information. Hannity should be forced to apologize publicly.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 09:40 PM

Apparently, what Wright was referring to was this--Ambassador Ed Peck Interview on Fox. Peck does not mention chickens, roosts, or any such thing, however, and, the closest anyone comes to expressing that idea is the Fox interviewer, who says
" Well, these things change, and then they come back to bite us."

Enough said about that.

At this juncture, I should point out that, whether you agree or disagree with Rev. Wright in his comments, he is not running for anything, and the reality is that they have little to nothing to do with Obama or his campaign for the Democratic nomination.


The fact that many people choose to focus on this non-issue, (which, to be really honest, is more like McCarthy-era guilt by association than anything else), rather than the very real economic problems that we are facing, or the abominable war that is bleeding us dry,
is the real problem, at this point.   Obama's inability to redirect the dialog is my issue with him--

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 10:42 PM

Kevin is right about Jeremiah, as I noted 20 Mar 2008 11:14 PM.

Also, having now heard the context of "God damn America",--thanks to Carol's link-- Wright states "....as long as..." various injustices persist. It is therefore not a blanket call for God to destroy America---- unless there is no improvement. Therefore it parallels Jeremiah's railing against Judah. They are both--very inflammatory--calls to improve.

As Obama however noted, Wright seems to take the attitude that nothing has improved--which Obama realizes is not so.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 12:40 AM

Malcolm X's speech doesn't make any mention of chickens coming home to roost either (except possibly in the title). Rev. Wright's speech is clearly not in any way about what Malcolm X was saying in his speech. They are two entirely different speeches. Malcolm X was talking about god's retribution on White people. The Rev. Wright's speech was about the nature of retribution, and how it is more an Old Testament idea and not a Christian idea. Malcolm X was promoting the idea of Blacks being separate from Whites, and Rev. Wright's speech was promoting the idea that we should use 9/11, not as an opportunity to seek revenge, but as an opportunity for each person to look within and examine the quality of his or her relationship to God.

Conflating these two speeches in the way some are doing seems a bit smarmy to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 08:54 AM

What struck me about Wright's speech was how similar it was to what Ron Paul was saying in the Republican debates. Paul continually tried to make the point that the reason people around the world don't like the US is because the US is always trying to "big-ass" its way into other countries and take their resources and change things to fit American models.
                   Paul said that on several occasions and each time he did, all the other Republican candidates laughed at him.
                   It seemed to me that was what Wright was saying about 9/11 and the chickens coming home to roost.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 10:04 AM

One thing for sure that has come out of this is that "typical white" folks wouldn't feel too comfy in many "typical black" churches...

I've been in a good number of black churches over the years and compared to "typical white" churches what goes on in these black churches is down right rowdy...

That's part of thr discussion... The fact that there has been so mush push back by white folks in general in the media demostartes that white folks are the ones with such a low level of understanding of black culture....

I think that is why the white media is keeping this going... It's guilt... They want Wright to prosrate himself himself as a "precopndition" for them to make any effort to undertsand what beefs blacks have with the country... It's typical Bush thinking... Preconditions...

I mean, white people are the one's who sould be doing the prostrating for now only what it ahs done but what it continues to do to black folks in America...

Yet the media thinks it is their job to sit in judgement and say "Not enough" yet... More groveling... More, more... We want more...

Beam me up, Scotty... Too many white hypocits down here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 10:10 AM

Malcolm X's "Chickens coming home to roost speech" is so called because after the speech, he made a comment about Kennedy's Assassination, which had taken place two weeks before, to th the effect that"Kennedy never knew the chickens would come home to roost so soon."

He was much reviled because of the comment, and it led to his leaving the Nation of Islam, and it has since been regarded as a defining moment in the Civil Rights movement.

For those of us who were involved in the Civil Rights and Anti-War movements, those words and their implications were the beginning and/or the end of many long discussions and debates--they have as much significance and importance as "I have a dream", and when they are quoted, it is always with full understanding of what they imply.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 12:38 PM

and when they are quoted, it is always with full understanding of what they imply.

What they might imply. This is obviously an assumption on your part. If you just go by that one phrase, rather than examining the rest of the speech, you are engaging in stereotyping. It's pretty obvious that Rev. Wright meant something entirely different in his speech than what Malcolm X meant both in his speech as well as in his comment on JFK. If you ignore that and only look at the one phrase to form your judgment, while ignoring the meaning of the speech as a whole, you are engaging in stereotyping, and it does look a bit racist. Are Blacks required to abandon the use of the phrase entirely just because Malcolm X used it in a way that we don't like? White people are allowed to use it without being judged in that way. But from now until the end of time, no Black person is allowed to use it without being accused of being racists or separatist, just because one Black person used it in that way, regardless of what he or she actually meant when he or she used it? Sorry, but that definitely looks racist to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 04:00 PM

I give you a lesson in Black History, and now I am a racist?   You have no idea who you're talking to.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 04:18 PM

Ted, I think you should always be careful when using words like "always" when you are talking about conversations which occur when you are not there.

You seem to be representing yourself as someone who knows what all civil rights folks say all the time. Common sense tell me that is unlikely.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 04:35 PM

The telling wink

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 04:48 PM

I don't know why you think you're in a position to tell me what's what, M. Ted. You appear to have either not listened to Reverend Wright's speech, or you have decided to disregard what he has said because you know better than him what he meant by what he said. This makes me disinclined to accept you as any kind of expert on Black history. Are you Black yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 04:55 PM

It's pretty obvious that Rev. Wright meant something entirely different in his speech than what Malcolm X meant both in his speech as well as in his comment on JFK.

Surely what Malcolm X and Wright meant by using the expression "chickens coming home to roost" were what anybody else would mean by the expression - that actions have consequences, and bad events often have their roots in previous bad actions.

This isn't something Malcolm X dreamed up - he was just using an expression that has been around for ever. The earliest recorded occurrence of the expression seems to be in the Roman poet Terence, back in the second century BC.

The same notion as the Hindu "Karma".

How come it's suddenly seen as a particularly controversial thing to say?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 05:08 PM

Malcolm X appears to have been talking about divine retribution against White people generally, and I can see how people might be uncomfortable about that. But Rev. Wright was not talking about divine retribution against White people, since he was talking about this country in that part of his speech, and also, instead of saying there should be retribution of any sort, he was saying we should, as a nation, be circumspect about our response to the attacks on 9/11. Malcolm X was saying that White people would be punished. Reverend Wright was saying that we should not respond by killing innocent people as a way of getting revenge. These two speeches could not possibly be more opposite.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 05:27 PM

I'm not black, but there's a who lotsa times I wish I could say I'm not white.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 05:31 PM

I understand, M. Ted.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 06:24 PM

There's no way to delay that trouble coming every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 06:45 PM

In either case the implication is that any retribution is a matter to be left to God - "Vengeance is mine, says the Lord - I will repay".