BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 06:45 PM

In either case the implication is that any retribution is a matter to be left to God - "Vengeance is mine, says the Lord - I will repay".

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 06:24 PM

There's no way to delay that trouble coming every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 05:31 PM

I understand, M. Ted.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 05:27 PM

I'm not black, but there's a who lotsa times I wish I could say I'm not white.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 05:08 PM

Malcolm X appears to have been talking about divine retribution against White people generally, and I can see how people might be uncomfortable about that. But Rev. Wright was not talking about divine retribution against White people, since he was talking about this country in that part of his speech, and also, instead of saying there should be retribution of any sort, he was saying we should, as a nation, be circumspect about our response to the attacks on 9/11. Malcolm X was saying that White people would be punished. Reverend Wright was saying that we should not respond by killing innocent people as a way of getting revenge. These two speeches could not possibly be more opposite.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 04:55 PM

It's pretty obvious that Rev. Wright meant something entirely different in his speech than what Malcolm X meant both in his speech as well as in his comment on JFK.

Surely what Malcolm X and Wright meant by using the expression "chickens coming home to roost" were what anybody else would mean by the expression - that actions have consequences, and bad events often have their roots in previous bad actions.

This isn't something Malcolm X dreamed up - he was just using an expression that has been around for ever. The earliest recorded occurrence of the expression seems to be in the Roman poet Terence, back in the second century BC.

The same notion as the Hindu "Karma".

How come it's suddenly seen as a particularly controversial thing to say?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 04:48 PM

I don't know why you think you're in a position to tell me what's what, M. Ted. You appear to have either not listened to Reverend Wright's speech, or you have decided to disregard what he has said because you know better than him what he meant by what he said. This makes me disinclined to accept you as any kind of expert on Black history. Are you Black yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 04:35 PM

The telling wink

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 04:18 PM

Ted, I think you should always be careful when using words like "always" when you are talking about conversations which occur when you are not there.

You seem to be representing yourself as someone who knows what all civil rights folks say all the time. Common sense tell me that is unlikely.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 04:00 PM

I give you a lesson in Black History, and now I am a racist?   You have no idea who you're talking to.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 12:38 PM

and when they are quoted, it is always with full understanding of what they imply.

What they might imply. This is obviously an assumption on your part. If you just go by that one phrase, rather than examining the rest of the speech, you are engaging in stereotyping. It's pretty obvious that Rev. Wright meant something entirely different in his speech than what Malcolm X meant both in his speech as well as in his comment on JFK. If you ignore that and only look at the one phrase to form your judgment, while ignoring the meaning of the speech as a whole, you are engaging in stereotyping, and it does look a bit racist. Are Blacks required to abandon the use of the phrase entirely just because Malcolm X used it in a way that we don't like? White people are allowed to use it without being judged in that way. But from now until the end of time, no Black person is allowed to use it without being accused of being racists or separatist, just because one Black person used it in that way, regardless of what he or she actually meant when he or she used it? Sorry, but that definitely looks racist to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 10:10 AM

Malcolm X's "Chickens coming home to roost speech" is so called because after the speech, he made a comment about Kennedy's Assassination, which had taken place two weeks before, to th the effect that"Kennedy never knew the chickens would come home to roost so soon."

He was much reviled because of the comment, and it led to his leaving the Nation of Islam, and it has since been regarded as a defining moment in the Civil Rights movement.

For those of us who were involved in the Civil Rights and Anti-War movements, those words and their implications were the beginning and/or the end of many long discussions and debates--they have as much significance and importance as "I have a dream", and when they are quoted, it is always with full understanding of what they imply.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 10:04 AM

One thing for sure that has come out of this is that "typical white" folks wouldn't feel too comfy in many "typical black" churches...

I've been in a good number of black churches over the years and compared to "typical white" churches what goes on in these black churches is down right rowdy...

That's part of thr discussion... The fact that there has been so mush push back by white folks in general in the media demostartes that white folks are the ones with such a low level of understanding of black culture....

I think that is why the white media is keeping this going... It's guilt... They want Wright to prosrate himself himself as a "precopndition" for them to make any effort to undertsand what beefs blacks have with the country... It's typical Bush thinking... Preconditions...

I mean, white people are the one's who sould be doing the prostrating for now only what it ahs done but what it continues to do to black folks in America...

Yet the media thinks it is their job to sit in judgement and say "Not enough" yet... More groveling... More, more... We want more...

Beam me up, Scotty... Too many white hypocits down here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 08:54 AM

What struck me about Wright's speech was how similar it was to what Ron Paul was saying in the Republican debates. Paul continually tried to make the point that the reason people around the world don't like the US is because the US is always trying to "big-ass" its way into other countries and take their resources and change things to fit American models.
                   Paul said that on several occasions and each time he did, all the other Republican candidates laughed at him.
                   It seemed to me that was what Wright was saying about 9/11 and the chickens coming home to roost.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 12:40 AM

Malcolm X's speech doesn't make any mention of chickens coming home to roost either (except possibly in the title). Rev. Wright's speech is clearly not in any way about what Malcolm X was saying in his speech. They are two entirely different speeches. Malcolm X was talking about god's retribution on White people. The Rev. Wright's speech was about the nature of retribution, and how it is more an Old Testament idea and not a Christian idea. Malcolm X was promoting the idea of Blacks being separate from Whites, and Rev. Wright's speech was promoting the idea that we should use 9/11, not as an opportunity to seek revenge, but as an opportunity for each person to look within and examine the quality of his or her relationship to God.

Conflating these two speeches in the way some are doing seems a bit smarmy to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 10:42 PM

Kevin is right about Jeremiah, as I noted 20 Mar 2008 11:14 PM.

Also, having now heard the context of "God damn America",--thanks to Carol's link-- Wright states "....as long as..." various injustices persist. It is therefore not a blanket call for God to destroy America---- unless there is no improvement. Therefore it parallels Jeremiah's railing against Judah. They are both--very inflammatory--calls to improve.

As Obama however noted, Wright seems to take the attitude that nothing has improved--which Obama realizes is not so.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 09:40 PM

Apparently, what Wright was referring to was this--Ambassador Ed Peck Interview on Fox. Peck does not mention chickens, roosts, or any such thing, however, and, the closest anyone comes to expressing that idea is the Fox interviewer, who says
" Well, these things change, and then they come back to bite us."

Enough said about that.

At this juncture, I should point out that, whether you agree or disagree with Rev. Wright in his comments, he is not running for anything, and the reality is that they have little to nothing to do with Obama or his campaign for the Democratic nomination.


The fact that many people choose to focus on this non-issue, (which, to be really honest, is more like McCarthy-era guilt by association than anything else), rather than the very real economic problems that we are facing, or the abominable war that is bleeding us dry,
is the real problem, at this point.   Obama's inability to redirect the dialog is my issue with him--

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 08:45 PM

The real scope of those clips makes it stunningly clear that the whole flap has been promulgated on a scandal, a slander caused by intentionally omitting information. Hannity should be forced to apologize publicly.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 08:04 PM

And thanks Carol for that link to the extended version of two sermons from which clips have been wrenched out of context and have been used to cause the most damage. Set in context the effect of the words is dramatically different.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 07:34 PM

Very appropriate that a preacher called Jeremiah should supply a Jeremiad, defined as "a speech expressing a bitter lament or a righteous prophecy of doom".

As for "God Damn America", there's nothing this Jeremiah sees to have said about America that is any fiercer than what the prophet Jeremiah said about the Kingdom of Judah and its rulers. And it didn't make him too popular at the time either.

Ironically enough, the Jeremiad is a very time-hallowed American tradition of preaching - see here: Forms of Puritan Rhetoric: The Jeremiad and the Conversion Narrative.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 07:27 PM

It was the White ambassador who was quoting the speech from Malcolm X. Wright was quoting the ambassador. He says so in his speech. If you watch it and listen to it, you can see/hear for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 07:02 PM

Ah. I withdraw my quibble in this instance, then. Thanks.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 07:01 PM

Ted Amos,

a couple of minutes before he says that, Wright references Malcolm X's speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 06:56 PM

What did the expression mean before that speech was given, Ted? It's been in common parlance for centuries, amongst both whites and blacks.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 06:44 PM

When an African-American speaker, whether a minister or not, talks about chickens coming home to roost in front of an African-American audience, it is always an allusion to this: Malcolm's "Chickens Coming Home to Roost" Speech and, particularly, his comments after the speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 06:22 PM

I saw a part of the speech in a longer context, and he isn't saying what people think he's saying. At least not the part where he talks about the chickens coming home to roost (which, by the way, is a quote from someone else - an ambasador who is White). He's telling his congregants that we have caused a lot of suffering for a lot of people in other countries, and that, now that we are experiencing suffering in turn (that Rev. Wright suggests we are at least partly responsible for), we should follow Christian teachings when we decide how to respond. He is saying that we should not respond in a way that will result in the killing of a lot of innocent people, especially children.

I can't see anything wrong with this part of the speech myself.

The part where he says "God damn America", I have also heard in a longer context, but I need to hear what comes after that line before I can say what I think about that part of the speech, and I haven't heard that yet.

Here's the longer version of the first one...

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/election08/80481/

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 06:12 PM

Good stuff. Huckabee has always impressed me as a good man, and what he says there is very fair-minded. He's not cynically using the situation, as he could, to damage Obama's run for the presidency. This speaks very well for Mike Huckabee.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 05:55 PM

Here's a YouTube clip of Mike Huckabee talking about all this - confirming my gut feeling that, set aside politics, Huckabee is basically a pretty decent kind of a man.

...I'm gonna be probably the only conservative in America who's gonna say something like this, but I'm just tellin' you — we've gotta cut some slack to people who grew up being called names, being told you have to sit in the balcony when you go to the movie, you have to go to the back door to go into the restaurant...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 05:40 PM

Geez, Louise. Wright isn't running for anything. Ferraro isn't running for anything. Just listen to the candidates who are running.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 05:14 PM

Some words missing from my last post:

Nothing racist about saying that America and that some of those help explain why there have been terrorist attacks on the USA

should have read: Nothing racist about saying that America has done some terrible things at times (what nation hasn't) and that some of those things help explain why there have been terrorist attacks on the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 11:50 AM

Neither Obama nor Wright are in hiding, and this is just snide noise, Rig. And you know it full well.

Wright's passion, viewed in full context with the long history of other lectures and comapssionate acts he has produced over the years, would create a very different profile int he public mind. So the Clinton/Republican machinery of war has once again seriously damaged the repute of someone who deserved better.

Viewing things in context is nopt something Fox-heads do very well at all; their specialty is pushbutton reaction.

If we are to govern the nation on this principle,k we will be at war again and again, just as McCain projects. Perhaps it is time for a saner hand on the helm, don't you think? SOmeone who can assess the place of events in history and context without jumping like a frightened hare every time somethign creaks?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 11:15 AM

Good point, McGrath--even the blandest religious doctrines and theologies have spawned bitter conflicts--if you put these ideas in a video, sooner or later, someone with a contrary view will see it, and all Hell will break loose--better to publish them in a book, where no one will ever see them--

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 08:20 AM

If Wright has given "racist sermons" how come the clips picked out by Fox and suchlike to demonstrate that don't seem to show this?

There is nothing racist about denouncing the slave trade and segregation. Nothing racist about saying that America and that some of those help explain why there have been terrorist attacks on the USA. Nothing racist about reminding people of medical experiments which have been carried out on black people which have caused suffering and death. Nothing racist with using terms like "state terrorism" to refer to what has sometimes been done by governments.

Some of Wright's rhetoric has gone over the top, some of his accusations are shaky or just plain wrong - but that is not what accusations of "racism are about.

I've never thought making videos of sermons is a very good idea. Asking for trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 07:13 AM

"Maybe the good Reverend Wright should come out of hiding."

                He can't. If he does he'll blow Obama's cover too!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 02:04 AM

My understanding is he is giving public sermons; what does he have to hide about. Those who know him and the context in which he spoke know what an empty wind the noise being raised around him is. He knows it, as well.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 01:38 AM

>>>
Maybe the good Reverend Wright should come out of hiding.<<<

What makes you think he is hiding?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jim Lad
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 01:29 AM

Maybe the good Reverend Wright should come out of hiding.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 12:52 AM

Even Peggy Newnan liked the speech!

The discussion on Meet the Press.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 03:44 PM

Unfortunately the clips do not help the cause. What should be established is that Wright's church--and his attitude--was not anti-white or anti-American---and that therefore to extrapolate from a few outbursts to 20 years of sermons is not reasonable. There are clips which support this, but these are not they.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 01:43 PM

It looks like the L.A. Times is picking up on Obama's challenge to continue the discussion on race.

Check out the photo essay. What a huge and wonderful crowd!

LA Times on race.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 01:41 PM

Eisenhower's granddaughter, Susan (a Republican), has endorsed Obama as well...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/01/AR2008020102621.html

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 01:40 PM

It works for me McGrath.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/231/story_23112_1.html?WT.mc_id=HOMELEAD2

Here is the url. Maybe you can go to Belief net and search on "Wright."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 01:30 PM

"David Eisenhower teaches a class at the University of Pennsylvania on American political speeches. Senator Barack Obama, with his address last week on race and politics, gave him a new course.

"It was a very powerful speech," said Eisenhower, whose grandfather was president of the United States and supreme allied commander in World War II. "Obama gives a very compelling reason as to why this is his time."

(International Herald Tribune)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 08:37 PM

These clips give some perspective on the Rev Wright clips.

Wouldn't open for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: heric
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 04:10 PM

>I don't think Obama will let you down in a jam either.<

That's what I'm thinking. Everything will be all fucked up under any scenario, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 04:03 PM

A certain measure of goodwill, combined with a sense of humour (about both oneself and others), is pretty vital to maintaining a reasonable political discussion around here...or probably anywhere. It keeps things from turning just downright ugly.

I expect a certain amount of duplicity from all political candidates. Their job requires it. I don't expect whoever I'm backing to be perfect. Such expectations would be unrealistic.

Obama ain't perfect...but as they go, he's a lot more impressive than most.

Now take my guy Chongo. FAR from perfect! But, hey, that's part of his simian charm. Chongo makes no apologies for being what he is, but he won't let you down in a jam.

I don't think Obama will let you down in a jam either. We'll see...if he gets elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 03:43 PM

DougR likes it when we play rough. He told me so himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 03:42 PM

DougR has a healthy sense of humor, which is pretty much required of anyone who contributes *anything* to Mudcat--

And anyway, if you call Bush "Shrub", and Nixon "Tricky Dick", you've got no business objecting to "Slick Willy"--


And I'm not naive, Ron Davies, I know that people will show the video as long as they think that they can get mileage out of it--Obama needs to be able to let the air out of the tires of any issue that gets ahead of him on the road to the White House--

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: heric
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 03:34 PM

... can't we all just get along

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: meself
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 03:32 PM

Um, people: ... don't you think you're getting a little carried away in your response to one snide, obviously partisan, remark?

I'm just sayin' ...