Is there a terrorists attack on Economy?

Subject: Is there a terrorists attack on Econamy?
From: skarpi
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:43 PM

Hallo all , I just wander about this question , is it possible
that terrorists are making all this happening on the money market over the world ? I wonder,after two days we are gettin message from Osama Bin
Ladin ? about what ?

some things we can explain in the markets behavour but some we cannot
and things here in Iceland are realy bad and its gettin worse by everyday

Now I know about the house market in US and UK but it does not explain everything .

well its just a thought in my mind , beware they once said we can attack you where ever we want to .


All the best Skarpi Iceland

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Econamy?
From: treewind
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:58 PM

Bush blew the bank on a war and we're all paying for it, that's how it seems to me.

I'm sure Osama binbag would like us to think he's that powerful - that's exactly the way terrorists work - by threat.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Econamy?
From: Connacht Rambler
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 07:16 PM

Bush should help the democracy-loving, freedom-seeking people of Tibet.

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Econamy?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 07:42 PM

Attacks on markets are something people could do, for sure. Terrorist might not be the correct term. Possibly capitalist is more correct. Specific stocks have to be hit and timing is important. Certainly China has sufficient US currency to cause big bumps on the NYSE, for example. Thing is, even terrorists require money to do what they do. That said, it should be fairly 'simple' for analysts to see if specific trading orders have 'attacked' parts of the system that have large investments by large companies that are American. BUT, as always, there will be buy/sell orders that can be traced. Money seldom gets completely laundered. If the aim is to cause chaos, that might be different. Then ya look to the old Latin phrase, cui bono. IMO, multi-nationals are still making large profits, so if you want the 'real' terrorists, look there.

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Econamy?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 08:32 PM

It is simple. The banks will not lend each other money because they are worried that anyone they lend to may not be there tomorrow. They are on strike and not doing what they normally do. (Partial performance of duty).

Of course if the workers go on strike the wrath of the government comes down from high........but if the banks go on strike.......

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Econamy?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 08:53 PM

No, skarpi, I think it is the result of a very stupid war and a consumer society that encourages everyone to spend money they don't yet have...the irresponsible use of credit, in other words.

You have a whole society conditioned to behave that irresponsibly and sooner or later there's a price to pay for it.

Why blame Osama for our own collective stupidity?

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Econamy?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 08:56 PM

I'm surprised this has lasted so long above the line ...

... elves? ...

... now what are the magic words again ...

... hocus pocus jiggery-jee ...

... little mud elf come hither prithee ...

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Econamy?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:21 PM

I sometimes wonder.

My wife and I own a share in a cooperative apartment building, and part of that share includes a very nice apartment. We paid off the loan years ago, and we currently pay a nominal monthly maintenance fee (covers all taxes and insurance on the property, and some utilities, plus routine mainenance on the building, with a little stuck aside for emergencies, such as the occasional plumbing leak), probably about a fifth of what we would have to pay if we were renting an equivalent apartment. We are not wealthy at all, but we have a fair amount of savings and a few investments. We're both receiving a monthly Social Security check (earned through paying into the system during our working years), and my wife works part time at the Seattle Public Library, not because we need the money (nice though it is), but because she enjoys the job. We are debt free. We have one credit card, which we do use, but we pay off the total every month.

I learn on the news that the average American is up to his or her armpits in debt, scrambling to pay off miscellaneous mortgages and loans, carries a whole walletful of credit cards, and on the average, is carrying $8,000 in credit card debt, on which they make the minimum monthly payment (pays on the interest, but not the principal), guaranteeing that they will be paying on it forever.

When Bill Clinton (no matter what one may think of him) left office, he left the nation's economy in good shape, with a budget surplus. In fewer that seven years, George W. Bush has run the country's debts up to where it will take several generations to pay them off—if ever!

George W. Bush has proven that he is a Real American.

My question is this:

Where did my wife and I go wrong?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Economy?
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 10:18 PM

Gee, Don. My wife and I do the same things, only we have two credit cards (one for Internet purchases, with a much lower credit limit than the other). We also have enough socked away to pay off the mortgage completely if we had to.

I work because I enjoy it, because I get a good salary and good benefits, and because I think I'm doing something important. I'll start drawing my Ohio and Indiana retirement money this year, and she'll start collecting Social Security. I also get a very small disability check from the VA -- that goes right to a savings account.

Thing is, we've worked a long time together to get to this point, just as you have. Our first house was 900 sq. ft., our second 3000, including the basement and the attic (both unfinished).

However -- my neighbor's place goes on the foreclosure block March 27. There are about 16 more places in Pocatello that are in active foreclosure, still more in pre-foreclosure or bankruptcy. Of course, I don't have a fifth-wheel trailer, two pickups, jet skis, dirt bikes, or any of that junk...and I don't want it.

We're pretty much content with what we have.

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Econamy?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 10:30 PM

Don Firth, That is totally un-American! (We could pretty well duplicate your condition, except that we have a detached dwelling).

It is impossible for terrorists or unknowns to cause big swings on the market. The big players (and even the small ones) have no secrecy on their stock or commodity trades. Moreover, they don't have enough cash.

Little Hawk has a good deal of it in his explanation. These problems have occurred several times, and economists and governments have never been able to deal with them. The money institutions, banking on continued growth, loaned money to people with no security; both are at fault. The governments didn't seem to see the developing problem- not just our government, but the European market countries and those in Asia.

The same syndrome has popped up everywhere. I listened to what was essentially a state of the union message from China's leader, carried live on BBC. He is worried about slowing down China's inflation and wants to slow down corporate spending, and only talked about Tibet and international problems in the question period.

I noticed that the pound started dropping against the Euro the last couple of days, they have troubles too- same reasons.
Meanwhile Germany, with the high Euro, is starting to lose export sales, and inflation bothers them too.

BMW is worried enough that it plans to switch more production to the U. S., which has lower wages. It is just one of many companies that is getting worried, although sales are still good. Japan is suffering from the increased value of the yen and I am sure many of their businessmen are having sleepless nights.

The tremendous growth in India and China caused shortages, notably of oil and grain. This, with other factors is fueling inflation.
The commodity traders of course bid up prices when the shortages became apparent, adding a spiraling effect that has put people out of work in both manufacturing and supply industries.

The attack on the economy is being pushed by the average Joe, uncontrolled by inept governments.

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Economy?
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 10:50 PM

You've got a lot of it right there, Q.

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Economy?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 11:29 PM

I think treewind nailed it!

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Economy?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 12:00 AM

My friends, when you have an entire planet whose finances are in the control of the spiritual and ethical counterparts of the Ferengi (of Star Trek Next Gen. fame)...you are in deep trouble!

And that's what we've got.

We have not yet evolved a truly responsible civilization on this planet, because we're enslaved to the concepts of profit and conspicous consumption ("he who dies with the most toys wins").

That's just plain stupid. However, it is better than practicing slavery, holding gladiatorial shows in public arenas, and burning people at the stake over accusations of witchcraft...so I'm not saying we have made no progress at all so far. ;-) Nope. We are slowly and painfully moving ahead in a number of respects.

But our understanding of how to properly manage a world economy is still in the Dark Ages, as far as I can see.

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Economy?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 02:31 AM

"I learn on the news that the average American is up to his or her armpits in debt"

Saw on the news a US family who lost their house living in a trailer. Scatterd around the ground OUTSIDE of a trailer fully packed with 'stuff' was more 'stuff' - a 'fireplace', lawn furniture, etc, etc, etc. They had paid that off before paying off the mortgage. I can remember when whole families with 4-6 kids (like MY ancestors) lived in 2-3 bedroom houses "worker's cottages" (often with an outside toilet and even sometime no dedicated 'bathroom') they were called here in Aus, and now DINKs (Double income no kids) want several bedrooms, 'ensuites with extra toilets', 'family rooms', 'office rooms', etc. ....

~~~~~~~~~

Now with regard to 'attacking the economy':

We had a big Aussie company with international holdings of child minding centres - 'ABC Learning' hit the skids recently. Well the directors held most of their shares 'on margin lending' - the price dropped, so the banks demanded they sell their shares - this pushed the price further down!

Now there is a racket - called 'share borrowing'.

In the days of paper records because it would take time to process the paper work (nowadays the ownership is transferred instantly on a computer database!), shares were allowed to be borrowed from a holder, with a promise to return them with a fee at a later date. There are still tax breaks - in that the lender does not have to pay capital gains tax over the gain since they bought them.

This means that clever bastards (terrorists maybe!) can 'borrow' large amounts of shares for a tiny fraction of the real current value, short sell them, which drops the price because large volumes of shares are being sold, allowing them to buy them back much cheaper, making a profit, then return them to the lender (with a drop in value of the lender's holding!!!) ...

The 'lenders' tend to be large organisations who hold large blocks of shares - such as Superannuation Companies! who lose large amount of value - and since the money they are playing with is the funds of workers who give them their superannuation funds, the workers lose too!

Is this 'terrorism' as originally asked by skarpi? I think so... but it has nothing to do with Bin Laden - wait on - he is supposed to have billions, doesn't he.... :-)

I'm NOT making this up you know.... :-)

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Economy?
From: autolycus
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 02:43 AM

What you're 'supposed' to do is spend, spend, spend, like there's no tomorrow. RHET just want your money.

Meanwhile, 2 news items today.

Through a false rumour, some City (of London) trader may have just made £100 million - THAT'S also what you're supposed to do - make a fortune by 'legitimate' gambling.

Secondly, an expert has said (BBC World Sevice prog on tax Evasion) that the total stimated to be salted away in tax havens (inclusing Delaware) is around $17 TRILLION.

Just get a bit of paper, draw a horizonyal line, mark 0 on the left, $17 trillion on the right end. Then see where along the line your own selection of expenditures lie.



    Ivor

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Economy?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:20 AM

Yes but LH, the unions bashers are trying hard to get back to as close as slavery for workers as they can, there are gladiator shows on TV, and Oprah comes pretty close to burning at the stake (and instead of "witchcraft" being the cry that ends any idea of an honest enquiry into guilt or innocence, now it is "paedophilia").

The reptile at the back of the brain is still in charge.

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Economy?
From: treewind
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:52 AM

instead of "witchcraft" being the cry that ends any idea of an honest enquiry into guilt or innocence, now it is "paedophilia"
Wow - ain't that the truth!
I've just seen exactly that springing up on the newsgroups concerning past allegations (that were firmly disproved and retracted at the time) about the late Arthur C.Clarke.

Back on topic though - my hasty reply to Skarpi's question was a bit incomplete. The war played its part, started to protect America's control of oil prices and in turn contributing to triggering the burst of the bubble, but in the background the global economic conspiracy *is* to blame, as had been admirably explained by many others above.

Anahata
"neither a borrower nor a lender be"

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Economy?
From: skarpi
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 05:47 AM

interesting answears ,

guest Iox : never talk down to the elves , they will get back to you
dont worry and hit you hard .


so you all think its starts with that crazy war Bush started and have
cost so much money and loss over 4000 soldiers ? over 90000 +
Iraq´s people and five years of what ? your econamy down . the world on the edge , well I hope in the coming future that this will all be good
and we start agin spending money and get our own houses back ,

I think in the future , the terrosrists will rahter attack the econamy
than blowin people away its more affektiv way to hurt , like a big nation like US .

I must meet up with the elves :>) and the fairy queen .

all the best skarpi Iceland .

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Economy?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 06:12 AM

"I think in the future, the terrorists will rather attack the econamy"

Actually as I remember, that sorta was the basis about 9/11 - making a wreck of 2 of the buildings prominently linked with 'the economy'....

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Economy?
From: skarpi
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 06:35 AM

yes , and they blew it away right in the future they will use computers
stockmarketing and so on ............

not bombs or killing pepole ..

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Economy?
From: treewind
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:32 PM

"they will use computers"
Cyberterrorism is a distinct possibility.
Denial-of-service attacks, data theft, etc.

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Economy?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:36 PM

Agreed, Richard. The reptile is still in charge. I've been watching its grisly rule in force ever since I was, oh, six or seven years old.

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Economy?
From: skarpi
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:52 PM

Well I just saw the new from UK yesterday , HBOS Bank was on the edge
yesterday why , becouse some crooks investors would get to bye
their share for little money so they started a story about the bank
was goin the same way as Northern Rock Bank did , and HBOS fell down at 17 % in one hour they say ? well this makes me wonder if they can do this
what can the others do ???

maybe I am not so stupied after all and my worry´s are real .

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Economy?
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 02:34 PM

Given the profligate stupidity of the markets this was bound to happen. Indeed I predicted it on this forum - unfortunately the precise date and route eluded me - or I would have rode the market.

Now the chickens are coming home to roost - there are enough terrorists in Wall Street and "the City" and any share market in any country. They make their money on rumour and inuendo. But yer average Bin Laden could spread the rumours as well. Just for the fun. Lets face it their target is "commerce". With all the instability it does not need too much effort.

And yes share dealers are constantly trying to be ahead of the game and falsities are part of that. Legality is hardly sitting on the shoulder.

People who make money out of money are not to be trusted. They want you to take the risk. And that is how the sub prime market has gone.

Sub Prime ? - doesn't anyone use the word "risky" any more.

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Economy?
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 03:11 PM

personally i'm much more worried about free market fundamentalists wrecking the economy than any other kind.

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Economy?
From: autolycus
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 03:58 PM

"free market fundamentalists" surely not.

Surely it's immigrants? No? Or benefit cheats? Hhm? Well how about Trade Unionists? You know , the ones who got neutered over the last 25 years. Got to be them. How come trade unionists got cowed into near-silence, after they'd been "the enemy within"(c in a circle. M.Thatcher), and yet, we have this massive load of problems? Did smebody fix on the wrong target? Or it's the commies what's wrecking it. The ones in the City of London. The international commie private investors (shurely shome mishtake. Ed.)- the ones you never hear interviewed or even tracked down on radio or telly.

Actually, it's all my fault. If I'd have worked at more law exams, woken up to wantiung to be a barrister, not solicitor, none of this wouls have happened.

Sorry, everyone.

   Ivor

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Economy?
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 05:14 PM

How do you spell "Osama W.Bush"???

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Economy?
From: autolycus
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 07:06 AM

Just read skarpi's last properly.

So it wasn't the governmint, it wasn't socialists, it wasn't trade unionists, it wasn't the usual tory suspects -

it was crooked investors.

WOW




Ivor

PS And there was me thinking investors were upright, conservative gentlemen working for the benefit of all to create jobs and everything.

Just shows how wrong it's possible to be.

I.

Subject: RE: Is there a terrorists attack on Economy?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 11:09 AM

Where's 'Teribus' when we need him/her to tell us that there's no alternative to the 'Free Market'?