BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM

Subject: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: GUEST,Another milestone in Bush's War!
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 11:51 PM

4,000 soldiers dead.

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 11:51 PM

that was me.

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 12:06 AM

...but who's counting?

While I am unhappy that anyone has been killed in Iraq, I wonder why we don't take more notice of the many thousands more here at home who have been killed by drive-by shootings, robberies, and in the heat of passion, not to mention school, college and houses of worship shootings, and sundry crimes causing death during this same period.

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 12:12 AM

Good point, John on the Sunset Coast. Better if we don't discuss the number of US service men and women who have died in Iraq. Better to keep the voters ignorant about that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 12:36 AM

I think we should count them all.

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 02:07 AM

Here are their names.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: folk1e
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 06:21 AM

Not just US servicemen (and women) eather!

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 07:29 AM

Not just Service men and women from ALL the coalition forces either -

The Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health estimate that 655,000 civilian Iraqis have died since 2003 who might still be alive but for the US-led invasion.

This figure is vigorously disputed by supporters of the war in Iraq, including US President George W Bush who puts the figure at 30,000 while the Iraq Body Count's figure (based on media reports) estimates 44-49,000 civilian deaths.

Nevertheless the Bloomberg School team says its method may actually underestimate the true figure.

The survey is to be published in a UK medical journal, the Lancet, on Thursday.

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 11:22 AM

Thank you, Carol, for once again torturing my words. I said nothing about not counting the war dead...I wondered why we 'only' count war dead when there is all this domestic terrorism happening concurrently. Peace and love.---John

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 11:24 AM

That's good to know, John.

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: folk1e
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 11:36 AM

NOT good! (but I know what you mean CC)

Avoidable death is wrong! But it may be less wrong than the alternatives!

I just wish a little peace and self respect to all concerned .... whatever their allegence.

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 01:05 PM

"wondered why we 'only' count war dead when there is all this domestic terrorism happening concurrently."

There is a logical reason.

There is a fix for stopping the deaths from our occupation of Iraq - bring them home. The other deaths that you mentioned - drive-by-shootings, drunk driving and other deaths related to crime is not as easily fixed - but once we get this administration out on the unemployment line and our troops home, we can start tackling these issues in earnest.

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 01:58 PM

I said that I think that we should count them all. But not on this thread. 4000 is a significant milestone and those people should be honored separately. It looks like for reasons he has not made clear, John on the Sunset Coast has changed the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 02:11 PM

You are right Jack - it is important that these people be honored separately.   4000 is a disturbing milestone that we reached, and it will only continue to rise unless something is done.

Tell me I'm wrong, but I suspect John wishes all the numbers were counted together - not so much to recognize the issues that we face domestically, but rather to cloud over the significance of our unneccesary losses do to this police action taken on by those who are currently governing this country.

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 02:28 PM

Ron and Jack - You are partially right. I care as much or more about domestic terror, because it more directly affects me and the greater communty than does the war in Iraq.

Ron, I do not believe that we can't solve the domestic terrorism problem (and that's what it has become) while we have troops at war. They are concurrent, but separate problems, and need to be addressed simultaneously.

And to anticipate a non-sequiter criticism, this does not mean that I don't want the war to end, and the troops to come home safely.

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: GUEST,John
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 02:30 PM

Sorry, the above post is from JothSC from a different browser.

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 02:36 PM

I care as much or more about domestic terror, because it more directly affects me and the greater communty than does the war in Iraq.

This is not true for the people who are fighting the war, nor for their families and friends. I think I'll torture your words once again and say again, good point. Why should we care about those people if the war is not affecting us the way it is them? We're ok, and that's all that should matter.

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 02:38 PM

Bringing them home and addressing the problems at home may be interrelated, but as challenges to this country they will have to be addressed separately. The war is being paid for by deficit spending. When it is over we will be faced by the dual challenges of paying back what we have borrowed from our children and facing the problems at a home which the war has distracted us from.

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 02:45 PM

Again, Carol, not what I said, but if it makes you feel better and superior, go for it.

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 02:52 PM

What was your point, then, John? If you care more about people killed in this country than you do about people from this country being killed in Iraq, and you say that's because it affects you more, what other meaning might there be for this assertion? It's certainly not a true statement for the many thousands of people whose lives are devastated by losing a loved one in Iraq, or by those whose family members come back home injured, maimed, or emotionally crippled. The war affects them profoundly.

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 03:20 PM

I meant exactly what I said. If you wish to deconstruct something, deconstruct Moby Dick.

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 04:50 PM

"I do not believe that we can't solve the domestic terrorism problem (and that's what it has become) while we have troops at war. They are concurrent, but separate problems, and need to be addressed simultaneously. "

I was not trying to say that we could not work on both simultaneously, but resources do have limits. The human lives as well as the money that is being wasted in Iraq could be better utilized at home where we actually face terrorism issues - both domestic and foreign. We do not face a threat from Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 07:01 PM

Faces of the Fallen.



A

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 12:11 AM

They sacrificed themselves??

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: GUEST,strad
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 07:16 AM

I abhor all unnecessary deaths from whatever cause. But perhaps we should look closer to home for a way to save lives. Here in the UK road deaths are over 3,000 a year and in the US over 40,000 a year. It is within everybodies grasp to cut down these numbers in future years and will save millions of pounds/dollars as well. A road death in UK costs approx £1.5 millon.

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 12:00 PM

You know, my orange is drying out and may no longer be edible but let me tell you about the worm in my apple.

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 01:46 PM

This photo was in the newspaper today, on the cafe table, where my young son and I had a cup of tea.

Bush & The Bunny

It was taken on the same day the 4,000th soldier was announced, and I thought of that mother, somewhere, cradling a photo of her dead child, in *her* hands, whilst the man who sent her son to his death was cradling that rabbit.

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 01:48 PM

Sorry, messed that link up:

Bush & The Bunny

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: Amos
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 02:19 PM

IT's beginning to look like all those who promoted the "effectiveness of the Bush surge" are going, perhaps, to eat crow as it becomes obvious that the cause of any recent improvement was the restraint, now beling unleashed, of the Mehdi militia. As they start demonstrating non-compliance, the statistics of harm go back up. OF course, the mouths who asserted the surge was the effective cause of the improvement will conveneintly forget that they said any such thing. Otherwise, it might be embarassing to the dittoheads who bought yet another PR line.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 02:22 PM

It's McCain's Surge. Do you think that Faux News will try to say that America's Enemies support the Democrats.

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: Amos
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 03:16 PM

That would be just the kind of twist IsHannity would try -- the results of the surge were caused by Mahdi insurgents being ordered to stand down; during the rise of the Democratic candidates, that changed and the Mahdi started fighting again. Therefore the Democrats are attracting America's enemies and are causing the surge to fail. Why, it's just so obvious!!!


Oy vey. Such tsuris no nation should have.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 4000 - 4K - MMMM
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 03:29 PM

I think it is worth while to point out that the entire decrease in violence from the surge, can be attributed to the Bush Administration giving our money to the people they were calling terrorists a few months ago, bribing them not to fight.

Even more interesting is that John McCain is calling those same bribe takers, the Shiite ones at least, "Al Qaeda".