BS: Religious freedom, or murder?

Subject: RE: BS: Religious freedom, or murder?
From: Slag
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 01:59 AM

"an evil and adulterous generation that seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it but the sign of the prophet Jonas: for as Jonas was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Mt 12:39,40)

"Then he said, 'I pray thee therefore father (the rich man in Hell to father Abraham) that thou wouldst send him (Lazarus the Beggar) to my father's house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham saith unto him, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'Nay father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.' And he said unto him, 'If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.'" (Lk 16: 27-31)

The proof has been given. It is up to you to either accept it or reject it.

However, in the case of this little child, it is hubris for the parents not to acknowledge that their faith was not sufficient and to have not availed themselves of proven medical procedure was criminal neglect. To quote another "A man's got to know his limitations." (Clint Eastwood as 'Dirty Harry')

Subject: RE: BS: Religious freedom, or murder?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 10:25 AM

There is no proof in the post above, period!

Subject: RE: BS: Religious freedom, or murder?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 10:27 AM

I need you to 'splain about how you demonstrate the reality of God not existing -- or existing, for that matter. I wish it could be demonstrated, but it seems to me that the believer can always say, "Of course I can't demonstrate God; He/She/It is a spirit and I just have to have faith in Him/Her/It," while the materialist has the hard task of proving the negative.
One cannot demonstrate the reality of no-gods. However, one *can* demonstrate that pretty much anything the faithful believe is god-based, isn't. And the point of faith is just what you said - it has no proof, needs no proof, you just gotta believe. Reality, in contrast, can be demonstrated, so there is no need of faith when you believe in the demonstrable.
The burden of extraordinary proof, furthermore, is on the people making the *supernatural* and thus extraordinary claims, not on the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious freedom, or murder?
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:15 PM

Mrrzy--

I hear you.

Plato, Plotinus, Buddha and Lao Tzu would, however, disagree with the "What you see is what you get" approach. Oh, well. I guess that's why there are philosophy professors in the world. I think I'll go back to something demonstrable, like the strings on several of my instruments being worn out and in need of replacing. I hold THAT truth to be self-evident, so I guess that's a start.

Best wishes,
Chicken Charlie

Subject: RE: BS: Religious freedom, or murder?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 01:22 PM

Well, Plato, Buddha, etc., didn't have fMRI, now, did they (LOL!)?

Subject: RE: BS: Religious freedom, or murder?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 05:49 PM

http://www.livescience.com//health/080410-bad-prayer-kills.html is of interest.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Religious freedom, or murder?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 07:38 PM

Amazing, ain't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Religious freedom, or murder?
From: Bob Pacquin
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 09:52 PM

Old Bob can't say for sure what happened here--but he does think that one ought to read up on a subject *before* coming to a conclusion about it. Link to News Stories about Kara Neumann

Subject: RE: BS: Religious freedom, or murder?
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 10:25 PM

Though the key scientist in THIS, is not happy with it being dubbed the "God particle," scientists believe they may be able to now prove the existence of a force which gives mass to the universe and makes life possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious freedom, or murder?
From: Slag
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 01:59 AM

Gee, I wonder where it came from?

Subject: RE: BS: Religious freedom, or murder?
From: Greg B
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 03:21 PM

But that's just an extension of the dozens of other creation myths, now isn't it Slag?

It's anthropologically arguable that virtually every society has
sought to extend the limits of their knowledge of their origins with
some sort of creation myth. Whether it's Yahweh saying "Let there be
light" or some great cosmic hippopotamus sneezing out a glob of
hippo-snot that became the world, the creation myths have always begun
where empirical or scientific knowledge has left off.

In latter days, Christianity (et al) have sought to prop up their
creation myths by shutting down science.

Other more enlightened spirtualists and theologians have sought either
to rationalize or or to mesh their creation myths with newly-acquired
scientific knowledge. Thus there continues to be a creator, but now
it's the one that set E=mc**2 as an immutable rule. Meanwhile, such
as Stephen Hawking continue to push the point where scientific
knowledge ends and creation myth begins further and further back
in time and space (which turn out to be two sides of the same
cosmic coin, after all).

The interesting thing is that the keepers of the creation myths, no
matter how absurd, have done pretty well for themselves in society.
Arguably by making it up as they go along. Which is a lot less work
than finding neutrinos.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious freedom, or murder?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 03:29 PM

The problem with a creation myth is that it is superfluous. A materialist would argue that if you must posit a God that did not come from anywhere, and was simply a primal Cause uncaused, there is no earthly reason the Big Bang could not serve just as well as the primary Cause uncaused.

I don't wholly buy this, but the logic is pretty straightforwad.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Religious freedom, or murder?
From: Slag
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 01:59 AM

Yes Amos, your argument has much more the force of logic. I hate to tell Greg B the E=mc2 is NOT immutable and is certainly not the finally answer in physics (hyper expansion at 10^-34) not to mention the broken symmetries.

Some folks cannot conceive of their God knowing anything beyond their own ken and when they get out of their league in things scientific they feel threatened in their faith. I would question whether their faith was really in God or in their own ability to understand! I love the sciences. It gives me insight into just how really powerful and beyond us God is! It is not WHAT you know. It's WHO you know!

Yup, big time thread drift. I looked back (again) to discover the point of departure from the topic. Somewhere around Mrrzy and Guest Charlie Chicken. I guess that it was inevitable that this would come up but it has been done to death in other threads. These people do not have a theological leg to stand on. They do not have a legal leg to stand on. What they did to their daughter, either through ignorance or pride or stupidity is inexcusable. They have to be made aware of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious freedom, or murder?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 01:33 PM

Love it, Amos - no *earthly* reason, indeed!

Subject: RE: BS: Religious freedom, or murder?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 02:08 PM

"What they did to their daughter, either through ignorance or pride or stupidity is inexcusable. They have to be made aware of this."


                The really sad part of it is, there is probably no way in the world to actually make them aware of it. They are most likely too far gone. You might have been able to save the daughter, if she'd lived, but...

Subject: RE: BS: Religious freedom, or murder?
From: Slag
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 06:17 PM

Well, praise The Big Bang, Mrrzy, Amos! It was IT that determined our anthropomorphic existence and the natures we enjoy- or suffer, depending on your point of view. Either way, we are hereby absolved of all responsibility for our actions. I mean, I'm only doing what comes naturally!

Subject: RE: BS: Religious freedom, or murder?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 10:47 PM

"...we are hereby absolved of all responsibility for our actions. I mean, I'm only doing what comes naturally!"


                         But how does that play in Peoria?

Subject: RE: BS: Religious freedom, or murder?
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 02:44 PM

"A materialist would argue that if you must posit a God that did not come from anywhere, and was simply a primal Cause uncaused, ..."

I do belive in evolution (duh!) but that statement, Amos, is v e r y close to what science says about the universe. If I understand it correctly, they say: It (the void with its suns and planets, et al) was always there. (huh?)

Having matter -that has always been there - deteriorate and combine and then regrow into higher entities doesn't take a lot less faith than creationism.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious freedom, or murder?
From: Slag
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 04:20 PM

Doncha just love this?

Subject: RE: BS: Religious freedom, or murder?
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 08:12 PM

The loss of a child is the most pain that a parent can feel. Some of you are so completely full of yourselves that you are oblivious to the human truths.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious freedom, or murder?
From: Slag
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 09:24 PM

Thread drift, dear Ted. Any conversation can go astray. It does not mean that anyone is making light of the tragedy. Ease up a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious freedom, or murder?
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 09:38 PM

It didn't drift--it started out there.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious freedom, or murder?
From: Slag
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 07:13 PM

Ahoy there! We're listing about 6 degrees of the Isles of Langerhans! (with all due apologies to Harlan Ellison).

Subject: RE: BS: Religious freedom, or murder?
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 07:24 PM

I'm surprised that no one gone the short step to say that "Religious Freedom is Murder"--

Subject: RE: BS: Religious freedom, or murder?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 07:56 PM

Religious Freedom is not murder, Religious Conviction is murder, or can be, and that's the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious freedom, or murder?
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 09:39 PM

Well, close enough, Riginslinger--and if you've got a conviction, you've got to do the time;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Religious freedom, or murder?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:06 PM

Um - you can't use "what comes naturally" as an excuse for bad behavior - that is the price of civilization. Or socialization, if you prefer. Only babies get to do what comes naturally, unfortunately...