BS: How many socialists are there here?

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 04:16 AM

Dear Les,
I offer these remarks in a comradely spirit!!
"The emancipation of the working class will be the act of the working class!"

Marx wrote that over 100 years ago because he recognised that no other class or force would usher mankind to socialism.
How to get to that place has been the century old problem since.
New Labour has consistently failed the test when it came to war,privatisation and the redistribution of wealth.

I think the answer lies outside New Labour.Its best activists have been deserting the party in droves for years now and many of its remaining socialists have been broken politically on the party wheel [Peter Hain springs to mind as does Joan Ruddock ].

I am a member of Respect which came into existence out of the anti war and social justice movement.I make no claims whatsoever that Respect [or the Left List ] is the answer because Respect along with all the other left groups has to prove itself over a period of time and in practice!!
albert

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 11:53 AM

OK, some elements of agreement perhaps? Will we be needing some kind of collective action, maybe even a political organisation then?

No, I thought not, just another swapping of possible ideas then?

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 11:42 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7324485.stm

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Stu
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 11:28 AM

"Not all socialists and capitalists are as doctrinaire and ideologically pure, stigweard."

Capitalists adhere to no ideology - unless self-interest counts.

"That is why hybrid solutions drawing from both models need to continue receiving support from all quarters."

But they need a common aim, and the aims of pure capitalism and socialism are not compatible. This common aim should be the welfare of all those who live within a society, not just those who can afford it. We should strive to gather not just material wealth but also knowledge to be used for the advancement of science and reason to improve the lot of every man, woman and child on the planet, not generate income for an elite few.

Unfortunately we are in a situation where socialism has become a dirty word. The elitist New Labour grandees have abandoned the very ideology they falsely claim as their own - they are as far from the Tolpuddle Martyrs as it's possible to get. They are capitialists to the bone - witness the fact a so-called Socialist Prime Minister won't even stand up to the tyranny of China because it will effect trade despite the injustices of this oppressive regime - this abandonment of socialist principles is astounding and is damning in it's indictment of modern Labour policy - the true heir to the Thatcherite mantle.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Doc John
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 11:09 AM

Well if you've ready my postings on the 'Lights Out' thread, you'll know you can add me to the list.
Stigwaerd, I agree with much you say but there may have been some kind of balance in the UK before Thatcher and Blair her Heir. In my view some things should be run on socialist, nationalised (dirty word now) or is a better word 'mutual' manner: health, as you mentioned, but then there are railways, postal service, water, electricity ... services we all need. The rot set in when these items were privatised and are now run for profit rather than use. Did anyone hear of anything so silly as a private prison? The hospitals are now famously dirty because the cleaning is no longer done 'in house' but given to the lowest bidding private company, who then proceeds to cut corners. OK, let market forces (= law of the jungle) operate with burgers and jeans but not with essential services. However have you noticed when market forces work against the government's business friends (eg Lloyds), suddenly they don't like these forces anymore?
Doc John

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 10:43 AM

I enjoy the services of a socialized Police and Fire Department. Does that make me a socialist?

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 10:39 AM

Not all socialists and capitalists are as doctrinaire and ideologically pure, stigweard.

That is why hybrid solutions drawing from both models need to continue receiving support from all quarters.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Stu
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 10:36 AM

"Together the two can work very harmoniously and very well...as they do right NOW in all developed societies...and there is no reason whatsoever to demonize either socialism or capitalism in an all or nothing fashion."

I disagree with this utterly - where does this happen?

You can't work capitalism and socialism side by side because by definition a socialist does not accept that the capitalist ideal of free market economics can be applied to all areas of society and the economy.

Healthcare is the best example of this. Here in the UK our excellent NHS should be providing high quality healthcare for free, regardless of social class, income or location. Free dental care, free eye care etc etc. However, as the powers that be have gradually privatised the NHS we find we now all have to pay for healthcare to some degree, and the rush to profit from people's illness and misfortune has led from everything from the phones the patients use, to the cleaning/portering services to the management of top-rank consultants being run by outside agencies whose aim is to make a profit rather than provide the absolute best in healthcare (you pay extra for that).

In truth, the NHS should be paid for totally by taxation and be totally inclusive. The idea that healthcare should have to turn a profit for shareholders is an anathema to socialists, and quite rightly. No-one expects the military to be profitable - that's why it's OK to rain bombs that cost 25k a time down on mud-huts in Afghanistan.

I'll declare my politics loud and proud - I'm a Socialist with a leaning towards certain aspects Marxism, and here's why. I firmly believe people need to be able to realise their potential, to be free from suffering and oppression, and to live peaceful lives, in the manner of their own choosing. I believe that capitalism fails utterly in being able to deliver these objectives both locally and internationally - it keeps the poor in the gutter, the rich in the penthouse and those in between distracted by trying to sell them tat they don't need. The dreams it offers are mirages - unobtainable and ultimately, hollow. In the UK, the combination of capitalism and the odious class system we still live with means gradually the most vulnerable in our society are being marginalised in increasing numbers whilst the wealthiest top 2% in our society get richer whilst contributing less and less.

I'm not against a certain amount of free-market economics - it might even be essential as people need choice and the possibility of advancing themselves materially if that is what they wish, but not at the expense of all other human endeavours and the quality of life for a significant part of society. Unfettered capitalism has led the world to the brink of environmental disaster, I see no evidence unregulated capitalism offers any solutions to the worlds problems - and that has to change.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 08:08 AM

Don't count the chromatically co-ordinated, it is a purely sartorial affectation.

Politically - water is the nearest hue to Mr Red's voting pattern - he can see through them!

And he never declares his politics. Leaving him free to criticise or praise (tick one of the above) as the need arises.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 04:46 AM

Don't understate your case Albert. Socialism has not been "delivered" anywhere. It is a long term process. Some one asked Cho En li, sorry I cannot spell the name of Mao's Prime Minister, what he thought of the French Revolution. He said it was too early to tell.

If the Labour Party has few ideas it is partly because few ideas exist. My point is simply that as far as parties go Labour is still the only party of the left

Perhaps you have some ideas to offer?

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 03:37 AM

I don'think New Labour is the political party that will deliver socialism in Britain.
It was founded at the start of the 20th century to tame the wilder excesses of capitalism but a hundred years later has retreated from even its initial ambitions.
Blair removed Clause 4 [the nationalisation clause ] from its constitutionand both Blair and Brown have embraced neo liberalism,the free market ,privatisation and all the obscene excesses of capitalism.
Both Blair and Brown have embraced imperialism and war and the New Labour leadership which is imposing wage restraints on working class people is content to see the super rich continue receive the fabulous wealth they believe they deserve.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 03:28 AM

Much truth in what you say akenaton,

All of this can be laid squarely at the door of Blair and the right wing policies of his administration. Especially the war in Iraq and his privatisation agenda.

But the Iraq war has little to do socialism.

We spent 20 odd years with a slightly more socialist agenda than Blair's and people chose Thatcher and Major and then Blair.

As for other parties of the left there are none in England. that'smy point

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 03:22 AM

Les , the SNP, who have just ousted Labour from power here in Scotland, are proving more "socialist" than the last Labour administration.
Although only having a majority of one in Hollyrood, the party's popularity in the country has increased dramatically since coming to power.

The worrying thing (for Labour), is that when they lose their Scottish power-base, they will never again be in a position to rule the UK.

All of this can be laid squarely at the door of Blair and the right wing policies of his administration. Especially the war in Iraq and his privatisation agenda.

Its all very well to be a socialist in a New Labour administration,
but a real socialist has to have balls...or the female equivalent.
And I don't see many of them hanging around Westminster.

Whenever any "dangly bits" do appear, they are swiftly amputated by the "Party machine"....,..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 08:51 PM

I don't think what we've got in the UK can be called Socialism with so much inequality around! (the divide between rich & poor getting wider)

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 09:44 AM

That's a good start, Rap... This book 'ill take the staunch outta even the stanchiest...

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 09:27 AM

We've got it in the Library. You'd be surprised how many people, many of them good, staunch, Red Republicans, have read it.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 09:10 AM

make that "Free Lunch"...

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 09:09 AM

Yup, that's the point, Rap...

BTW, did you get ahold of "Gree Lunch" yet??? The Bush/Texas Rangers chapter is a must read...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 09:03 AM

"Stewardship" implies more than "ripping off for myself". Stewardship implies caring for something AND for the environment (including the people) which created it.

No, Bobert, they haven't been very good stewards.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 08:49 AM

Well, one thing si for sure and that is the current crop of capitalists have not been good stewards of the capital... They think it is their ***job*** to corral it and corral it they have done... And worse then that they have corraled the capital with a lot of help from the government with corrupt policies that has increasingly redistributed more and more wealth upwards...

Does anyone know how or where George Bush made, if you can call it that, his money??? Google "Texas Rangers" and check out how he and a bunc of corrupt tax/cheat investers bilked the Arlington, Texas tax payers outta a couple hundred million dollar$$$$... This scam couldn't have been pulled off 40 years ago... It wopuld have been illegal but these corporate crooks have used the laws to steal...

This is what i mean when I say that the current crop of capitalists are not good stewards of capital.. And it has settled in as a culture and that is the worst part... They feel entitled to this wealth... And when folks bring up these inconvient facts these folks hire PR folks and op ed shills to twist things around... Probelm is that the twistin' 'round days are numbered because now they have even gotten into "Southern Man's" pocket and when they can no longer control Southern Man they will find themselves havin' to readjust...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 07:40 AM

Socialism must be coincidental with democracy and about making the means of production, distribution and exchange more democratic.

Those who own and control the "means" use them for themselves. We cannot change this without a democratic organisation.

Stand back to be enraged.

In the UK the organisation best placed is the Labour Party. It has more people in it who call them selves socialists than any other organisation.

Yes I know it isn't very democratic and it doesn't really run the government, but you either join it and work within or build another one rather like it. All other parties of the left are ineffective.Democracy, like socialism, is not answer it is a process, a very long term process.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 01:54 AM

Speaking of the scarcity of water, there would be plenty of water far into the future in the developed world if we stopped flushing drinking water down toilets and lavishing drinking water by the ton onto home lawns and golf courses.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: autolycus
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 01:52 AM

On the other hand,Lonesome, business is never backward in looking to government for mone, halp and everything - even banks!! Just look what's been happening there both sides of the pond lately.

How many companies rely on government for business, contracts (arms industry; defence contracts; consultancies;computer companies; government suppliers; et cetera), grants (like relocation ones), subsidy (rail, farmers).

I mean it goes on and on the list does of how many are looking to government for business and money while simultaneously telling everyone 'we need to get the govenment off our back'.

And presumably onto someone else's.


Business wants people(i.e. workers) to buy their products and services, and simultaneously see working people (i.e. staff) as a cost; and a cost to be held down.


I repeat the song lyric

Somethings gotta give

Somethings gotta give

Somethings gotta giiiiiiiive.



Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 11:10 PM

"I consider myself to be a socialist but regret that those polititians who claim to be bear no relation to my concept of socialism."

                         Yes, Mrs. Duck, that's exactly what I thought when I looked into it.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:15 PM

And business spends a lot of its energy trying to get the government off its back and persuading others to think the same way

Absolutely Ivor. It is the nature of unfettered corporate business interests to seek growth and maximization of profits regardless of ethical, moral, and legal standards. Should the proprietor, CEO, or board of shareholders fail to hold the business to a legal and ethical standard, the will of the people, as manifested in the state or federal government, must stand by to do so. Business and government should be engaged in a healthy antagonism that will keep them both serving the citizen, the worker and the consumer.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:05 PM

It seems to me, hidden away in the hills of Idaho, that we must first begin caring again about others. Capitalists -- management, if you will -- must realize that it cannot survive without labor. Labor needs management. We are all interdependent -- everything touches. It's only when we realize that we really ARE what we eat, what we create, what we destroy, what we share, that we can begin thinking beyond the tips of our fingers.

People are NOT created equal: some are smarter, some are musically talented, some create beauty with their hands, some to make money, some have an ability to teach, some to raise children, some to organize the knowledge we already possess, and some to use that knowledge so that the same mistakes aren't repeated over and over. Human society will work best when all of the talents given to people are recognized as such and used for the good of all.

I think that this can be done. Unfortunately, I don't think it will happen easily and will be watered with blood.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 06:17 PM

"RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?"

There are three, but no two people can agree on which three.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 06:13 PM

How many socialists does it take to change a lightbulb?

It's society that needs to change!


Socialism is a state of mind. I don't see it as a political decision, I see it as a motivation.

The belief in the impportance of altruism in society both for it's own sake and to maintain it's integrity (or prevent it's disintegration depending on how you look at it)

Enfranchising social pariahs and making those with too much power accountable to those whose lives their every decision affects.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Cats
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 04:25 PM

Sorry wee little drummer but your composite does not comply with standing orders......

count Jon and I in as socialists. Check out the old Liberal party. We still have them here in Cornwall. They have never moved on their politics and are now about as far left wing as you can get in this country!

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: autolycus
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 04:25 PM

From: Lonesome EJ - PM
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 03:27 PM
Corporate monopoly is the greatest threat to a free capitalist society when not held in check by an aggressive central government.

And business spends a lot of its energy trying to get the government off its back and persuading others to think the same way.

Shurely shome mishtake. Ed

Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 03:27 PM

And it should come as no surprise that as we have seen the global explosion of consumer capitalism and the exploitation of global resources by the global corporate plutocracies, that we have also seen an explosion in human slavery, human trafficking, child exploitation as laborers, prostitutes and soldiers.

It should be noted that there have been no greater spoilers of the land, exploiters of labor, and violators of basic human rights than the USSR and China, both socialist states. While I won't deny that there are global corporate abuses, socialism is not the solution. It is a basic suppressor of individual innovation and entrepeneurship, eliminating many of the basic motives that lead to technological advancement. Should capitalism be allowed unfettered and unchecked operation? Absolutely not. But government has never been shown to be more efficient than business in the regulation and control of wealth. T Roosevelt had it right, though. Corporate monopoly is the greatest threat to a free capitalist society when not held in check by an aggressive central government. We are now reaping the rewards of the last years of failure to correct those and other abuses.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 02:52 PM

I consider myself to be a socialist but regret that those polititians who claim to be bear no relation to my concept of socialism.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 11:55 AM

Which is one of the main reasons why we have to kill the demon that is global agribusiness, global forestry, and the global energy monsters that are oil, gas, and nukes.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 11:48 AM

Water isn't "becoming" scarce. It is scarce, and has been for the better part of 50 years.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 11:39 AM

There WILL be a reckoning, perhaps sooner rather than later. With rice becoming unavailable and water becoming scarce, with wheat flour and the flours from other grains becoming unaffordable, oh yes...there will be a reckoning. It can be stalled off, perhaps, but not avoided. Malthus is still out there, nodding, saying, "I told you so."

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 11:02 AM

Oops! Anonymous guest above was me.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:56 AM

And it should come as no surprise that as we have seen the global explosion of consumer capitalism and the exploitation of global resources by the global corporate plutocracies, that we have also seen an explosion in human slavery, human trafficking, child exploitation as laborers, prostitutes and soldiers.

The one is directly linked to the other.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:44 AM

"Interestingly, in the UK, the philanthopy of the 18th and 19th centuries that improved workers' conditions and began the educational revolution that led to the foundation of the ideals of Socialism, were largely assisted by Capitalists putting wealth created from capitalist activities into "good works." "

Ah, but how did the capitalists get the money in the first place? That's right, by screwing the workers - long hours, child labour, unsafe working conditions - and then their 'charity' was riddled with conditions such as attending church, not drinking, do what your betters tell you. A quick dip into the works of Dickens will show you what things were really like.

If you're looking for true socilist ideals go back to the 1640s. Read what Lilburne, Overton, Walwyn, Winstanley etc. wrote. The practical application of thse priciples was, of course, soon stamped on the by those who owned the land and, therefore, had the power - a commonwealth in name only.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Rog Peek
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:31 AM

Sapper82, I think the model you refer to might be best called 'crumbs from the rich man's table'. Of course the flaw is: 'assuming the rich man lets them fall'.

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:23 AM

The credo that "Thou shall not rip off your fellow human (or your environment)" does has some basic appeal to me.

However, the thought of gathering around to discuss how to do that, the heavy reading and the thinking, encourages me to begin working on my taxes today.

I'll check back and see what you have all come up with.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:16 AM

Oh--and let's not forget the scarcity of water which already exists in most places in the world, not just in pockets here and there--and how much water the generation of centralized energy and power generation uses.

Making nukes so not the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:14 AM

Yes, and when one owns the systems by which capital is produced, one can afford to do good works. Or not. Which is why capital needs to be redistributed; generation of it regulated, monitored, and policied, and; new models created to deal with the brave new world we are facing when the oil and gas that fuels the world's economies, runs out.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: sapper82
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:08 AM

Interestingly, in the UK, the philanthopy of the 18th and 19th centuries that improved workers' conditions and began the educational revolution that led to the foundation of the ideals of Socialism, were largely assisted by Capitalists putting wealth created from capitalist activities into "good works."

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:08 AM

I don't know akenaton. I think the hybrid models could be used transitionally to get us to where we will eventually have to go, based upon the realities of resource scarcities.

And, the socialist model will have to be as ideology free as we can make it, in order for it to have staying power.

One reason why I have never been able to climb onboard with the party lines, is that moralistic attitude rooted in moralistic ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:57 AM

...present...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:57 AM

A number of poster have stated that we require a degree of socialism and capitalism to effect a balance.
This is pish!!
True socialism is the desire to construct a workable caring community of our species as most of the higher mammals do.

Capitalism is a virulent ideology based on the exploitation of the many by the few.
Progress will never be made until this ideology has bee properly explained to all and destroyed forever..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:53 AM

Not necessarily, autolycus. Give it your best shot.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: autolycus
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:38 AM

Rather than tossing about labels, it might be more useful some time to analyse society, the economy, politics. Putting it like that is itself a liberalt take on these matters


However, that all sounds like a different thread.

Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:34 AM

It is a simplistic sort of labeling, isn't it Ruth? It doesn't really reflect our contemporary values anymore, except maybe the few to whom Rockin' Reeler refers. I'm not quite so derisive of the elders as all that, and I don't think the current, upcoming generation is either, at least in the States. If anything, many young people seem to be searching for just those sorts of histories without the demonization the education system and mainstream society puts upon the leftist labels.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:22 AM

Last time I checked, I thought I was. But I have a cleaner, shop for food at Mark's and Spencer and my daughter is at a selective (state) school - so I'm probably hoisted by my own petard.

I still believe in socialised education (including higher education)and medicine, and in re-distribution of wealth through taxation, and would happily pay higher taxes to support all of these things...

So you tell me: am I a socialist?