Lyr Req: Joe Muggins and Sweet Sally

Subject: Lyr Req: Jo Muggins and Sweet Sally
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 07:07 AM

Dose anybody know this song? I heard it from a singer called Norman, from Higher Openshaw, people from the Manchester area will know him as a great character and singer of local songs.

He sang the song on the Folk Train coming back from Whalley Bridge yesterday. He is not on the net. I will follow him up by phone.

It is a truly brilliant song - any info?

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jo Muggins and Sweet Sally
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 01:37 PM

There seem to have been three 'Joe Muggins' songs issued on mid-C19 broadsides; copies can be seen at Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads:

Joe Muggins

Roud lists only examples, under various titles, of 'I don't mind if I do' (Roud 857); but from your mention of '(Sweet) Sally' I'd guess that the song you're looking for may be the 'Lord Lovel' parody. Let us know if it is.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jo Muggins and Sweet Sally
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 01:51 PM

Malcolm,

thanks a lot, the very song. Is this another anon. or is an author known? Were lots of parodies of ballads written? I seem to remember that one about "Little Boy Willie" - a parody of the Ship in Distress.

Thanks again

Les Jones

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jo Muggins and Sweet Sally
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 03:44 PM

I've been singing a version of the Lord Lovell parody for over 20 years. Can't recall where I first heard it done, but I later got the words from a book in Bradford's main library. The book was actually looking at songs from a fairly serious perspective, and had the two versions, Lovell and Muggins on facing pages with the versions matched verse for verse and line for line.
It is close, but not the same as the two versions linked to by Malcolm. If I have time in the next couple of days, I might manage to post them.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jo Muggins and Sweet Sally
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 05:14 PM

This one seems to be anonymous from the little I know about it. Parodies were popular then as now. 'Little Billee' is a parody of the French 'La Courte Paille' or 'Le Petit Navire' (Thackeray apparently used to sing his poem to that tune) rather than 'The Ship in Distress', but of course the latter is based on the French song, which in turn was probably based on a C17 Scandinavian one.

There were other parodies of 'Lord Lovel', and also of 'George (Giles) Collins', 'Green Willow' ('All Around My Hat') and so. Steve Gardham is interested in the genre and may well turn up here in due course; he will be able to add a lot more.

Meanwhile, what tune did Norman use? Logically it would be a 'Lord Lovel' variant, but that would depend on where he got it. I don't know of any survivals in tradition of the 'Muggins' parody, so he (or whoever he learned it from) may have put a convenient melody to a broadside text.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jo Muggins and Sweet Sally
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 05:20 PM

I will discuss such things with Norman asap.

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jo Muggins and Sweet Sally
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 07:43 PM

Jo Muggins is recorded by Will Duke on his new CD. According to the notes published in "Charles Chilton's book of Victorian folk songs".

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jo Muggins and Sweet Sally
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 08:18 AM

Parodies of the Works of English & American Authors collected and annotated by Walter Hamilton, 1887, contains a parody called JOE MUGGINS AND SALLY BELL.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jo Muggins and Sweet Sally
From: GUEST,Murphy
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 08:48 AM

I remember one called "Joe Muggins' Ass".

Joe Muggins went out to his little back yard to get his poor donkey some grass
Then out of his pocket a currycomb took and then began scratching his ass.

Now, "what must I do" joe muggins cried he, "the Cork exhibition to pass?
She's a beautiful sight so I think its all right if I go there and show them my ass.

At the Cork exhibition the very next day the judge thougth joe's entry "first class"
He went away in a flash and came back with a sash and he scratched number one on his ass.

In Cork city that night there were celebrations galore and a terrible thing came to pass
A butcher called Ward got as drunk as a lord and cut a big slice off his ass

Now the very next day the poor donkey died an an even worse thing came to pass
Joe cursed and he swore and he ripped and he tore 'til he tore all the hair off his ass.

Joe muggins went out with curry and stout to pickle it all in a mass
He pickled his head, he pickled his tail, he pickled the whole of his ass

Don't pickle his head, dont pickle his tail but pickle it all in a mass
For when you get home you can cook your ass whole and serve up the whole of your ass.

O K, that's not the one you wanted!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jo Muggins and Sweet Sally
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 11:59 AM

Thanks Murphy. A different song but clearly an excellent one. Any idea of a tune?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jo Muggins and Sweet Sally
From: GUEST,Jim Dixon
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 02:45 PM

I just noticed that the parody I linked to above has the notation "Three coarse verses omitted"!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jo Muggins and Sweet Sally
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 02:58 PM

Another out-of-copyright text (1887) withheld by GoogleBooks from the undeserving eyes of non-American users.

Fortunately, The Internet Archive has all 6 volumes, available to all without prejudice:

Parodies of the Works of English & American Authors

The relevant one is vol IV

The text differs in wording from the broadsides cited earlier, but the omitted verses will have been substantially the same.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jo Muggins and Sweet Sally
From: domo
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 07:16 PM

Hi,
There's a version of Joe Muggins recorded by George Withers on a compilation Cd called "Old Uncle Tom Cobleigh and All" on the Veteran Label. If you search their catalogue at www,veteran.co.uk and locate this CD, the lyrics to all songs on the Cd are available.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jo Muggins and Sweet Sally
From: GUEST,COF
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 03:03 PM

Hey Murphy,

I remember the song "Joe Muggin's Ass" sung on Cape Clear Island, Cork during the 1970s by a man named Pete Higgins. Lovely to see the full version (two verses are new to me).

Great memories.

Subject: Lyr Add: JOE MUGGINS (parody of LORD LOVELL)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 06:53 PM

From The Bodleian Library Ballads Catalogue: Harding B 26(289):

JOE MUGGINS.
Parody on "Lord Lovell."
Printed and sold only at the "Poet's Box," by JAMES
MOORE, 1, Castle-court, Belfast.

Joe Muggins he stood at his old doncay [sic] cart,
While a-combing his black-looking mop,
When up comes his love, then Sally Bell,
And this to her Muggins she spoke, spoke, spoke,
And this to her Muggins she spoke:

"Oh, where are you going, Joe Muggins?" she said,
"Oh, where are you going?" says she.
"It's I'm going away, love, Sally Bell,
To Smithfield to sell my donkey, donkey,
To Smithfield to sell my donkey."

"Oh, when will you back, Joe Muggins?" she said,
Or, "Ven vill you back?" say she.
"At 'alf-past five, or six, at the most,
So get me a red herring for tea, tea, tea,
So get me a red herring for tea."

He had not been away scarce a couple of hours,
To Smithfield, and sold his donkey,
When the thoughts of the herring came into his head,
Saying, "I hope it's a nice one," says he, says he,
"I hope it's a nice one," says he.

When he walked, and he walked, along Kennedy's Pad
Till he came to that far-famed "Rose and Crown,"
And there he saw his young woman lying drunk on the ground,
And the people a-fighting around, round, round,
And the people a-fighting around.

Then he sent for two boxes of Dr. Frew's pills,
Sixty-four of big mug he run down,
Saying, you won't get drunk in a hurry again,
As the pills they kept still running down, down, down,
As the pills they kept still running down.

Then pretty Sally Bell died through taking the pills,
And Joe he did shiver with fright,
Then he swallowed six dozen or seven at the most,
And he kicked the bucket that night, night, night,
And he kicked the bucket that night.

Pretty Sally Bell was buried as it might be to day,
Joe Muggins in less than a week;
When out of her bosom there grew a red carrot,
And out of Joe Muggins a leek, leek, leek,
And out of Joe Muggins a leek.

Now they grew, and they grew, to the top of the grave,
And they were not let grow any more,
So they cut them down to season the soup
That was given away to the poor, poor, poor,
That was given away to the poor.

[I don't see what's so "coarse" about any of this.]

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jo Muggins and Sweet Sally
From: GUEST,Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 06:55 PM

Okay, Malcolm, I've taken the bait.
The one you don't want 'Roud 847' 'I don't mind if I do' is common in British oral tradition and on broadsides from about 1850 onwards.
The previously posted 'Joe Muggins's Ass' seems to be based on 'JM's Donkey' which is, as has been noted, a parody of 'Lord Lovell' Burlesques and Coster versions of broadside ballads were very popular in the early nineteenth century reaching a climax with the performances of Sam Cowell and Fred Robson in the 1850s. In some cases the words were very little altered and the humour was injected by putting on an exaggerated coster's accent and lots of facial grimaces whilst wearing the appropriate costume. For instance it didn't take much doing to burlesque Lord Lovell, the burlesque version is almost word for word the traditional version. Other well-known burlesques were Billy Taylor (William Taylor), Villikins and His Dinah (William and Dinah) Molly the Betrayed or the Fog-bound Vessel (The Cruel-ship's Carpenter/ Daemon Lover), Barbara Allen almost unchanged and many more to a greater or lesser degree based on traditional ballads (All around my hat which was parodied and burlesqued mercilessly).

As for origins very few of these have been attributed accurately. They are often attributed to Sam Cowell as they appeared in his songbooks, but some of them were on the go before he was born.

The earliest version of JM's Donkey I have been able to find off hand is Hodges/Disley which puts it at mid nineteenth century, but I've a feeling I've seen it in The Universal Songster which would date it before c1825.

SteveG

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jo Muggins and Sweet Sally
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 03:35 PM

I finally found the sheets of paper on which I copied the words.
As previously mentioned, I do not know the title of the book I found them in, but it had Lord Lovell on one page and Joe Muggins on the facing page, plus notes comparing them verse for verse.
The book was in the reference section of Bradford Central Library around 1982. It may still be there.
The version I actually sing has undergone its own minor changes to the words used, although keeping the same basic meaning.

Below is as transcribed from the print version.
JOE MUGGINS.
Parody on "Lord Lovell."


Joe Muggins he stood by his old donkey cart
A' stroking his old black moke
When up came his lady love, sweet Sally Belle
And thus to Joe Muggins she spoke, spoke, spoke
And thus to Joe Muggins she spoke

Where are you going, Joe Muggins, she said
Where are you going cried she
Oh I be a-going, you scamp Sally Belle
To Smithfield to sell my donkey ;key ;key
To Smithfield to sell my donkey.

When will you be back, Joe Muggins? she said
When will you be back, said she
About half past five, or six at the most
So yoo'll get me a bloater for tea, tea, tea
So yoo'll get me a bloater for tea.

Scarce had he been gone three hours or more
To Smithfield and sold his donkey
When the thoughts of his bloater came up in his head
Oh! I hope it's soft roed, said he, he, he
Oh! I hope it's soft roed, said he.

So homeward he went on the Marylebone stage
Till he came to the famed Rose and Crown
And he saw there his Lady-love stretched on the floor
And the people all fighting around, -round, -round
And the people all fighting around.

He sent for two boxes of Morrison's pills
Seven dozen her throat he rammed down
Saying "You won't get drunk in a hurry again"
As the pills she kept swallowing down, down, down
As the pills she kept swallowing down.

Poor Sally she died from the pills, so they say
Which made poor Joe Muggind afright
He swallowed twelve dozen without delay
And gave up the ghost that night, night, night
And gave up the ghost that night.

Joe Muggins was buried the very next day
And Sally in less than a week
And out of her ashes there grew a great carrot
And out of Joe Muggins a leek, leek, leek
And out of Joe Muggins a leek.

They grew and they grew to the top of the grave
Till they wasn't let grow any more
For cut up they were for to season the soup
That was given away to the poor, poor, poor
That was given away to the poor.



I will also be clever, and transcribe the music into ABC format :-


X:1
T:Joe Muggins
M:6/8
C:Transcribed by GtD
L:1/8
Q:100
K:E
B | G E G B B B | c A c B2 B| e e e e2 G | B3-B2
B| e e e e B G | A G A c2 c | B c B A G F | E2 F G2
A | B c B A G F | E3-E z |

A good place to turn this into to MIDI or printable PDF is the ABC converter at Jon Freeman's site, Folkinfo.org .
Copy the text from the X:1 down to the z| and paste it into the input box of the converter.

Quack!
Geoff the Duck.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jo Muggins and Sweet Sally
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 02:23 PM

That was me - didn't realise I was on a computer baht cookie.
Quack!
Geoff.