BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy

Subject: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 01:16 PM

The CEO of Lehman Bros. said today that he has information and proof that billionaire short sellers in Hedge Funds manufactured the demise of Bear Stearns for quick profits and that they tried to do the same to Lehman Bros.

The Bush economic reform made certain to keep all Hedge fund operations secret and confidntial as always... as well as certain practices of investment banks.
HE only wanted more power for the Federal Reserve to bail out the "losers".

If this claim about short selling Hedge fund billionaires is true, they are not merely domestic enemies of the USA but of the entire financial world.


Manipulating the market is common, such as walking a stock up and then selling at the high piont, but if this is true about trillion dollar short selling that will cause massive bank failures for a quick profit for a priviledged few...

then they need to be attacked in every sense of the word.

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 02:28 PM

Then again it could be a clever yet believable lie by a CEO hoping to save Lehman Bros.

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 03:12 PM

fascinating and bizarre

http://seekingalpha.com/article/70489-novated-bears-and-the-education-of-ben-bernanke

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 03:30 PM

Well H. Paul Bremmer, on the ride in from the Baghdad airport allegedly said something to the effect of "If we shoot a few looters the looting will stop." Can this principle be applied to the billionaires?

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 03:44 PM

It is my opinion that anything Dubya or his cronies touch from this point out (and prior to this, but especially now since they're all short timers) is done expressly and exclusively to better their financial positions once they're out of office. They don't give a rat's ass about the general U.S. population or in making anything better. The idea that they're going to "fix" the regulatory system right now sends shivers down my spine--they're going to "fix" the trough for the rich that Reagan built.

Yeah, right.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 04:09 PM

We could shoot a few but I think instead we throw eleven figure sums of public money in so the scum (am I allowed to use that word on mudcat?) can dance away with their nine figure party packs. As along as the indices climb slowly we, the masses, will remain complacent and all will be well.

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 09:31 PM

Yes its anything goes until January. They are going to get while the getting is good even if it means the total destruction of a once properous nation. For the super rich beyond measure, nationalism and patriotism ends at the front door.

Hedge fund mafia tactics are backed fully by the crooks and criminals in and around the White House just like the last time the Savings and Loan money was raided under Bush 1.

Yes they were bailed out
and McCAIN voted for the bail out as well as being involved in the savings and loan heist AKA the Keatin 5.


This latest BLATANT short selling robber baron game has not been played so openly since 1900.

In real life these guys don't look anything like the meglomaniac villians in the James Bond movies... they look like well dressed geriatrics. They dont even show up for meetings. They have their people represent their family interests. Well the Bilderburg meetings might be an exception.

They will not appear on the richest men in the world lists.
They are the owners of the 5 leading banks and more than half of all the value of Wall Street invesments. Hedge funds secrecy rivals that of Swill opps Swiss Banks.
Hedge fund managers are paid well to keep the secret but compared to the big 5, they are merely errand boys sent to fetch lunch.

They are in it for the money be it ,real estate, global wars, weapons, global drug sales and anything else that involves sums of money that most of us can not even imagine.

The Machiavellian tactics of the "Rich Beyond Measure" does in fact employ armies to take fortunes by force and to guard fortines by force. Where the goverment ends and the "RBM" begin is invisible.
For the RBM the CEO's of multinationals are but pawns and are rewarded too keep silent no matter how they perform.

The first decision by Chase Morgan who just "acquired" Bear Stearns and Country wide Mortage Co. was to give the last CEO of Country Wide a $10,000,000.00 BONUS. Thats is one nice diamond parachute.

There are a couple odd characters like Warren Buffet who just bought most of Bank of America but most of the big movers are invisible ghosts.


Their first rule.
They NEVER want to be a target or a celebrity and go to great lengths to avoid any media mention. Occaisionaly they have an upstart grandson who blabs a bit too much but 5 or 10 million dollars buys a lot of blind eye forgiveness from anyone close to the scene.

heric, As their apprehension of retalliation and civil unrest grows so does the deay of our privacy and the cancerous growth of domestic spying on every person who communicates. Yes they are scared despite their outrageous security measures.
They know all too well that even a king can be dispatched by a pauper.

Ask Greg Palast for the A list. It will not resemble the 100 richest list I assure you.

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 09:42 PM

I wish somebody would explain to me what a "hedge fund" is, actually. Or recommend some publication that explains it in relatively simple terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 10:01 PM

Actually there has been a lot of fuss about this 'robber baron' short selling game...

In Aus there has been a lot of fuss about 'share lending' which is exempt from Capital Gains Tax. the Robber Baron gets a bank loan to borrow a large number shares of a particular company from a super fund (and from several funds at the same time) for a fee and agrees to return the shares at a future date. These are then dumped in the market in a big block, which drives down the share price. The robber baron has 'short sold' the shares, which means that he has agreed to buy them back at a future date at a lower price. This means that he has made a profit - then the lower priced shares are returned to the super fund. All 'expenses' are a tax loss...

Only one person gains - eberybody else loses - the other day it was reported that Aussie super funds gave a negative return this year - which means that your super packages WENT DOWN IN VALUE this year - i.e. you LOST MONEY from your retirement payout...

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 10:59 PM

Rig: Without a net worth exceeding $1m AND an annual income exceeding $200,000, my understanding is the short and long answers both are: none of our business. Go to morningstar.com and click on "Hedge Funds." Seriously. Go do it.

They're like private equity firms, but not. That's the best explanation I've seen. I read somewhere that some of them play sophisticated day trend computer transactions, in such a manner that they pay high rent to install next to exchanges, to save microseconds of transmission time. Seriously.

Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 11:10 PM

Hedge fund explained here--Wikipedia article.

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 11:10 PM

The flip side of this, though, that the rich get poorer in a lot of cases, too. They sell, in some cases, such complicated products that even supposedly sophisticated buyers, such as pension fund managers and university trusts, get hit hard, clearly not understanding what they've bought. I'm sure many hedge funds got trashed in the Bear Stearns collapse. Probably a lot more than those that gained in this alleged collusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 11:17 PM

Thanks heric, thanks Peace. I'll look into it. Thanks again.

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 11:19 PM

see:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/player/nol/newsid_7320000/newsid_7324700?redirect=7324700.stm&news=1&nbram=1&bbwm=1&bb

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 08:35 AM

See this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/2008/03/we_lose_in_greed_game.html

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 10:25 AM

Heric - You're right. They don't want to talk to me there. More people should be directed to that site.

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 10:45 AM

I blame the English. Hedge funds were obviously a direct extension of the idea of hedge schools, the result of English colonial oppression of the Ould Sods.

Bye bye, pension.

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 11:17 AM

Short- and long-term GREED by those who already have way too much is what's doing in not only the economy of the US but touching off crises around the world.

"Money is like manure. Pile it up and it stinks. Spread it around and it makes things grow."

Can't remember who said it, but the rich guys have been more interested in piling it up for the past twenty or more years (5% of the population owns 95% of the wealth) and then can't understand why the economy isn't growing. AND they don't want to pay any taxes to contribute to the well-being of the country.

Greed is NOT healthy!

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 11:25 AM

Oh, and the last figures I saw (already a couple years outdated) is that in 1965 the average CEO made 44 times the average factory worker. Today [2000-something], the average CEO makes 212 times the salary of the average worker.

Ain't unregulated capitalism grand?

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: pdq
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 11:41 AM

Bat Goddess:

While you are regulating those evil corporate executives, do you plan to also regulate the money made by athletes and other entertainers.

You do know that Oprah Winfrey made 275 million dollars last year. Yes, over 1/4 of a US billion in one year.

A baseball player named Alex Rodriguez signed a ten year contract for 25 million per year. Yes, that is 1/4 of a billion in US dollars.

Many executives are overpaid, but they do provide a service by running businesses that provide most of our jobs. Rodriguez just hits a baseball, Madonna pedals soft porn and Oprah Winfrey bores people silly. Talk about overpaid.

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 11:51 AM

Yes, regulate investment bankers, hedge funds, and anyone who profits on gains with other people's money. When they make huge leveraged gains with massive risk that will later come crashing down on the real owners, that blurs the line between caveat emptor and fraud.

Huge CEO payouts upon failure, such as Countrywide and Bear Stearns - I don't know, but it does suggest that board oversight has been compromised, to the shareholders' detriment, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 12:10 PM

A correction: I said the newly proposed Federal Reserve powers did not include oversight of Hedge funds and investment banking.

They do include the ability of the Fed to look at and perhaps even publish data about Hedge Funds.

That the Fed will be able to see what is going on when even CEOs and CFOs claim they do not know, makes this oversight dubious, arbitrary and unclear. imo

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 09:42 PM

What purpose do hedge funds serve in the overall scheme of things?

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 09:52 PM

Free market economy apologists assert that they enable capital to work more efficiently.

The problem is defining them so that they can properly be regulated.

I say the answer is a tax system that enables tax to be collected without challenge and without loopholes, a fiscal Star Chamber. But who could be trusted to run it (except me, of course)?

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 09:55 PM

I think that wikipedia article said in earlier times they intended and tended to provide some risk management, but those days are gone. I can't imagine how their continued exclusion from regulatory oversight could be anything other than a perk purchased from the federal government.

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 09:58 PM

Hi Richard: Even if they can be structured as almost anything under the sun, don't they always share one feature: They get performance fees? Can't that fact alone be a trigger for regulation?

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 10:23 PM

which I guess becomes kind of a rhetorical question since Donuel says some kind of "oversight" is in the new proposal - so there must be a trigger - whatever it is. I'm pretty sure it will be weak and ineffectual. They should, e.g., get performance fees that are subject to backwards averaging. THEN you'd get some risk management and true incentives to "do good" in a larger sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 03:14 PM

Stealing from the rich:

Hedge-fund hemorrhage
$60 billion liquidated in last three years, shrinking investor options
By Thomas Kostigen, MarketWatch

SANTA MONICA, Calif. -- If you are considering investing in a hedge fund, you may be shut out -- not because the hedge fund is oversubscribed and closed to new investors, which has been the usual reason until now, but because so many hedge funds have shut down.
Funds representing almost $7 billion in assets have shut down so far this year, according to research published by Absolute Return magazine, a unit of HedgeFund Intelligence. Add that to the approximately 50 hedge funds representing $18.6 billion in assets last year, and the 83 funds managing approximately $35 billion that were liquidated in 2006 (including the collapse of a single firm, $9.1 billion Amaranth Advisors that year) and you have fewer choices in which to invest your money.

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 03:20 PM

. . .The hedge fund industry manages about $2.8 trillion in assets, according to HedgeFund.net, of which $678 billion is domiciled in the U.S. and the rest managed through offshore funds.

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 05:46 PM

Voodoo Raygun-onomics rears it's ugly head and it ain't purdy...

I think alot of the finacial mover 'n shakers outta have to give the money back and be sentenced to live a year in a housing project...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 06:00 PM

Hedge fund definition: The rich get richer the poor get poorer.

Hell if I really know what is going on except that non trillionaires are getting screwed.

Performance fees in Japan are awarded when someone does something good and profitable.

It the US a CEO gets a performance reward even when they bankrupt the business, the state or nation.

A Hedge fund manager gets money coming and going but the insider crowd knows which "country club" is THE exclusive club. I did hear of one good johnny come lately Hedge manager.

Without total secrecy, I bet some Hedge funds may lose their appeal.

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: Cats
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 01:01 PM

I've just spent my hedge fund. I bought 120 box plants to grow a parterre [hedge garden].

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 04:01 PM

"The chairman of Lehman Bros said today he had information and proof..."
Where was this published?

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 08:53 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: Amos
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 08:58 PM

From a professional on the Greed game link posted upthread:

"Thanks for the article. It does explain some of the elements that led the credit markets into a bubble. There are many more culpable parties to all of this. They are mostly represented by the little guys (and gals) that so desperately wanted to have what they could not or should not afford. All of those millions of participants who were willing to spend more than they earned and finance it with the increasing equity from their rising home values. They did not think of the consequences of what they were doing. They lived for today with the expectation that they could re-finance tomorrow. Without them, the hedge fund managers would not have had the ability to increase their leverage to insane levels. There were millions drunk on greed and the party lasted a little too longÉÉ..and nobody likes a hangover!!!"


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 01:51 PM

Q: see e.g.

http://www.fool.com/investing/dividends-income/2008/04/04/take-that-lehman-short-sellers.aspx

see also:
http://blogs.wsj.com/marketbeat/2008/03/20/hints-and-allegations-and-bear-stearns/?mod=googlenews_wsj

or search google news for Lehman CEO Fulds Securities Exchange Commission hedge funds

Are these guys smarter than us or did they actively collude? False question! Of course they are smarter than us, they also have better access to inside information than us, and they would of course conspire for profit.

The strange thing in favor of their possible legitimacy is the Bear Stearns' CEO abrupt turnaround. He lashed out at false rumors and within two (?) days says well okay the rumours are true. Did the short selling hedge funds force out the truth or create the truth? Somewhere in between is the likely answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 02:02 PM

(The short sells are on record to the investment king-pins. Their existence alone speaks volumes, so they wouldn't have to spread false rumors through other channels on top of that. The only way the SEC is going to prove a conspiracy is to prove they agreed in advance to flood the exchange, and influence the market, with short sells on Bear Stearns and Lehman. Seems hard to do, since they put their money where their "mouths" were.)

But to answer your question(?), yes Lehman reported it to the SEC and the SEC is investigating. We don't know the exact supporting facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Hedge Funds - our domestic enemy
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 01:29 PM

Chronology of a Tipping Point (one e-mail):

But take a look at the timetable of events, as Roddy did, and draw your own conclusion:

March 10, the day the volume started to rise, and Bear's stock started to plunge, Bear Stearns issued a press release saying there "is absolutely no truth to rumors of liquidity problems."

March 11, as volume spiked higher, Bear's CFO, emphasized on CNBC that the rumors were false. But on that same day, according to Roddy, "the credit derivatives group at Goldman Sachs sent its hedge fund clients an e-mail" saying "it would no longer step in for them on Bear derivatives deals." This was important, Roddy points out, because in the weeks leading up to the Bear blowup, Goldman "had done a brisk business…agreeing to stand in for institutions nervous, say, that Bear wouldn't be able too cough up its obligations on an interest rate swap."

By March 12, "when word of the Goldman e-mail leaked out," Roddy writes, "the floodgates opened. Hedge funds and other clients, eventually running into the hundreds, began yanking their funds." At the same time, he says, banks other banks refused to issue any further credit protection on Bear's debt.

That, as we know now, was the beginning of the end.

And as it turns out, the Goldman e-mail may very well have been the tipping point, with market participants, both long and short, doing what they always do: Acting now, asking questions later.


Furthermore, as one short-seller notes, with other banks no longer writing credit default insurance on Bear debt, the best way to hedge Bear counter-party risk was to short its stock.

http://blogs.marketwatch.com/greenberg/2008/04/bear-blowup-why-it-wasnt-a-short-conspiracy/?mod=MWBlog