BS: Who Owns The Glen?

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 07:02 PM

Whiskey and whisky are both anglicised ways of writing the Gaelic word for water.

I suppose it might get confusing if the people selling bottled water from the Scottish highlands started calling it "Pure Highland Whisky"...

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Gurney
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 06:43 PM

Bit of a storm in a tot-pot, eh?

The celtic peoples would have a case against anyone using the name whisky or whiskey as well, words derived from gaelic.

While Scotland may not be the centre of the universe (that would be China, wouldn't it?), it is certainly the centre of the whisky-making world. No matter who makes how much elsewhere.

Remember the TV advert, 'Port comes only from Portugal?'

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 11:55 AM

Well Bee, I too find distressing is that the riches of the real Gaelic culture is overshadowed to the point that it lies unknown.
Good one HiLo!

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 11:48 AM

perhaps he was drinking "Scotch" ? made in Glendale Cal.LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Bee
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 11:30 AM

Stillwater, what earthly connection does that have with the subject matter of this thread and whyever would any of us be interested in a rich boy's DUI charge?

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: GUEST,Stillwater
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 10:24 AM

Paris Hilton's younger brother Barron has been sentenced to three years' probation after pleading no contest to a charge of driving under the influence.

The 18-year-old was stopped by police on the Pacific Coast Highway on 12 February, when he was reportedly found to have almost twice the legal limit of alcohol in his system. Hilton was held by cops and then released on bail.

Barron appeared in a Los Angeles court yesterday, where a judge ruled that he be placed on probation and have his driving licence suspended for one year.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: GUEST,Bee
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 09:41 AM

Durn.. guest above was me. Must find cookie!

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 09:41 AM

Yes, Sandy, it was certainly polite to refer to a person as 'Scotch' when I was a child. 'Scottish' wasn't heard of.

But then, along with genuine cultural inheritance, there's few wagon-loads of spurious 'Scottish' nonsense perpetrated by various marketeers over the last couple centuries, in Nova Scotia and Scotland and elsewhere. The history of 'clan tartans' is an eyeroller, and don't get me started on heraldry or the proliferation of nonsense associated with the term 'Celtic'. The word 'Scottish' is just part and parcel of all that.

I've worked in both arts/crafts and publishing businesses where the production of genuinely culturally influenced items was necessarily bolstered by the production of stuff made to satisfy a market brainwashed into thinking 'everybody has a family coat of arms' and 'Celtic knotworks have specific meanings related to our pagan past' and other silliness. I never felt good about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 08:44 AM

There has been a campaign by Scotland's distillers for many years to reserve the word "Scotch" to be applied only to whisky produced there. (sticky-tape notwithstanding) This included convincing people who called themselves "Scotch" to substitute Scots or Scottish instead. Some today may even take offense if you call them Scotch and admonish you saying that is not the proper term. However, years ago it was very common and accepted. Along the line the word migrated from being an adjective to a noun so that scotch and whisky are becomming synonymous. Language is fluid and words that were common and yot considered even impolite at one time may now be offensive even racist. Other words not fit to repeat in public at one time are injected into every conversation.
While I don't argue that Scotch Whisky should only be produced in Scotland I wanted to point out how a word could be hijacked and trademarked. Now by wanting to extend that to "glen" they go too far!
McGrath is correct in saying that they make no "whiskEy" in Scotland.
    Suas an poit dhubh!

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 07:52 AM

Unlike Glen Breton,many whiskies made in Asia are counterfiet whiskies.. In fact, even the goverment of Korea is planning to put laws in place to curb this practise. Also, There are plans both by the European Union and Scottish officals to make consumers aware of these issues. There are, and have been, for some time, laws protecting the name "scotch". This is not the Problem Glrn Breton has. They make a very high qualty whiskey, it just isnot Scotch whiskey. A very different legal situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 09:18 PM

"Scotch" made in Korea? Would not the Scotch Whisky Association of Scotland be better advised to fight that? I guess they didn't use "glen' so it's not an issue or are the Korean courts less friendly to their trademark claims?

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 07:10 PM

I sorta suspect that folks had better get clued in, globally:

Korea: Among rows of imported liquor bottles, Lotte Chilsung's Scotch Whisky Series has stood out as one of drinkers' favorites, and the maker credits the product's quality, distribution method and marketing strategy for its success.

Since debuting in late 1997, Scotch Blue has recorded a consistent hike in sales even though the liquor market slumped in 2004 pushed by various societal issues.

Through Scotch Blue that umbrellas products, including Scotch Blue International (SBI), New Scotch Blue Special (SBS) and Scotch Blue (SB), Lotte Chilsung enjoyed high sales of more than 200 billion won last year. The company attributes such popularity to its smooth taste.

``While imported whiskies were made tailored to Westerners' taste, Scotch Blue was customized for local drinkers,'' said a Lotte Chilsung official.

"Scotch" doesn't necessarily mean Scotland any more....

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Bee
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 03:43 PM

HiLo, me also, and yes, I'll disagree, along with me buddy Sandy, there.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 02:49 PM

"In fact, there are twenty or more products, all spelled that way." In which case they clearly aren't claiming to come from Scotland, because they don't make "whiskey" there.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 02:11 PM

It is under appeal.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 01:30 PM

In fact, there are twenty or more products, all spelled that way..this is where the original confusion arose.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 01:21 PM

If the court found that "Glen" was associated with "Scottish whiskey" I'd have thought any competent lawyer could get the ruling overturned, because there is no such product. Not spelled that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 01:00 PM

Hi Bee, No I am not a lawyer nor am I in any way involved in this case. I just find it very unfortunate that this small and excellent maker of whiskey was unwise enough to allow this to happen. As you may recall there was a lot of discussion at the time of the naming of the whiskey. Many, myself included thought it unwise and, unfortunately, we have proven to be right. Currently there are about twenty whiskies with the name "Glen" in the title, all of them made in Scotland so the connection beetween that term (name if you will) and Scottish whiskey is clear and incontrovertible,,that , at least is what the court found.
I do, however, agree that Nova Scotians should support this excellent product, I certainly will. I simply wish they had had better advice at the start.
In any case, I have enjoyed the discussion and it appears we will just have to agree to disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Bee
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 12:39 PM

I see the Scotch Whiskey Association is proudly announcing this victory on their website.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Bee
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 12:27 PM

HiLo, no one wants to call it 'Cape Breton' whiskey because the distillery is located in a very specific location on Cape Breton. Cape Breton is 10,282 sq. km in area, and includes many distinct landscapes and features, including the city of Sydney, unfortunately famous for its highly toxic Tar Ponds, not for its clear, sparkling clean water - not an association one wishes to have with one's whiskey.

I'm rather curious about your interest in this case - are you a lawyer involved in such cases, or even in this case?

I quite understand the concept of provenance, but in this instance I think that Glenora should have an equal right to claiming provenance with regard to the word 'Glen', given the community and the common nature of the word. It would be understandable if they used the term 'Scotch'; that would be wrong.

Again, I understand the court's decision, I just do not agree with it at all, and think it very petty of the Scottish distilleries to have even bothered with it. Rulings like this one can have the effect of making ordinary people feel something of their own has been unfairly stolen from them by the marketing industry and the courts. Certainly in this part of Canada the decision makes for very bad publicity for the Scottish distilleries, not that any of us think they care.

And I will follow my only recourse, which will be to encourage my single malt drinking friends to buy Glenora and no other single malts from Scotland. I realize that will have no effect whatsoever on the Scottish distilleries, but it may aid Glenora in sending a bit more revenue their way, and accomplish a bit of word of mouth promotion for their product.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 12:03 PM

The word "Glen" (with a capital "G") was copyrighted in 1948 by a D. McDonald, on behalf of his company of the same name. He and his wife Flora were involved in a potholing accident soon after that, however, and their bodies were never discovered. There is a stone on the site where they were last seen, and the inscription says

"...And now over their heads the green grass it does wave,
And the wild flowers nod over their desolate graves,
And the strangers that pass shed a tear as they go,
For Flora and Donald, the pride of Glen Co"

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 11:56 AM

To the best of my knowledge all Whiskies containg the term "Glen" are made in Scotland, this was part of the consideration of the court. Even if the distilleries are owned outside Scotland, the whisky is Known a Scotch Whiskey because it is made in Scotland. I am afraid that in this case the court did make the correct descision. I recall that at the time there were many people who had misgivings about the naming of this N.S. whiskey as "glen".
I know it is a small operation and that they do make an excellent whiskey..so why not advertize its' Cape Breton roots by calling it Cape Breton Whiskey ?I can also see why some people may find the concept of provenance difficult, but it is a highly valued aspect of business, especially small and unique businesses, therefore it seems reasonable that no confusion be attached to it.
Part of my problem with this whole business is that the owners of the CB distillery where aware from the beginning that a problem might arise concerning the term Glen, and yes, I do know it is near a "Glen", they should have avaided this problem right from the start. Srely anyone who is about to embark on business venture considers all the possible problems. This problem should have been dealt with at the outset. I agree, calling it "Glen Breton" was a no brainer.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 11:27 AM

Well said Bee! HiLo the Glen Breton name simply is a contraction of the place where the product is made being Glen(ville), (Cape)Breton. It really is a glen and there was no hidden attempt to deceive anyone as the lable is explicit as to it's origin. I fully understand the argument made by Scotland's distilleries. I just don't agree with them and I don't think our court should have either. This court decision was also overturning, on appeal, a much wiser earlier ruling.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Bee
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 10:42 AM

HiLo: "I do realize that Scotland is not the Centre of the Universe, nor is Cape Breton."

Well, that could be argued, given a little extrapolation: see link. ;-)

http://www.amazon.fr/Cape-Breton-Thought-Control-Centre-Canada/dp/images/0889840997

HiLo, it isn't that we cannot see where the court is coming from; it is that we think it is unfair and over the top to allocate a very common word, commonly used as a place name in both Scotland and Cape Breton, to a bunch of distilleries which in fact are often not even located in Scotland.

If a buyer of single malt cannot be arsed to even read a label for country of origin, then single malt marketers have more to worry about than a little Cape Breton distillery's label.

There is also, if truth be known, a lingering love/hate feeling amongst many of Cape Breton's older Gael descendants towards Scotland, the country many of their families were forced to leave. You'd think six or seven generations would have eliminated that, but no. I remember my father, five generations out of Scotland, reacting to a visiting 'Clan Chief' with a surprisingly bitter and uncharacteristically political objection to to the event. Until the historically recent popularity of Cape Breton's Gael derived piping, fiddling and dance, it was common for some Scottish pundits to regard Cape Breton's heritage as unsophisticated or even crude. Of course, many Cape Bretoners visit Scotland and love their experience there, and since we are so fond of genealogy, many of us are well aware of our roots there. But the upshot is that an incident like this silly labelling thing brings an extra rush of annoyance towards 'the Old Country'.

I'm a pretty abstemious person, but I do like single malt now and then. I think I'll just stick to buying Glenora's product from now on.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 09:09 AM

Let us put it in Folk terms.. If my name was Henry Martin and I decided to make guitars, could I, or should I be allowed to call them Martins, even if that is my name. In the Macdonalds case the court found that there was no attempt, intended or otherwise ,to confuse consumers. However, in the case of Henry Martin, the court would , in all probabilty, disallow Mr. Henry Martin from using his surname as the brand name for his product..on the basis that an assumption could reasonably be made that a "Martin" guitar has a certain provenance and that Henry Martin was clearly aware of the association that would be made by the buyer. Also, Glen Breton was not using a family name and therefore had other alternatives and chose to use a designation that also had a previous and well known provenance. Not the same as the MacDonald's case at all, at least not in legal terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 09:00 AM

Well there was a case where McDonald's (fast food chain) tried to sue a man for putting the McDonald name on his restaurant. When the judge found that the defendant was born a McDonald and the chain was owned by Ray Crock he sent them packing. This would seem similar.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 08:15 AM

I do realize that Scotland is not the Centre of the Universe, nor is Cape Breton. All I was wanting to say is that had the N.S. distillery had had good legal advice in the beginning they would have been advised, wisely I think, to not use the word Glen as that appellation is decidely linked to Scotland when it comes to Whiskey. And, as I have previosly stated, there are many legal precedents for this . Ridiculous as it may seem to some, the word Glen is almost always associated, in terms of Whiskey, with Scotland. That was the finding of the court. They were not concerned with the linguist genesis of the word Glen, as I am sure is obvious in the ruling.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 08:29 PM

My post of 10:05 yesterday contained a link that was only relevant on that date and later cartoons have no relation to this discussion. My apology! Perhaps it could be deleted by a clone.
                Thanks,
                   Sandy

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 06:57 PM

Jesse James was a boy who killed many a man
He robbed the G**ndale train;
He stole from the rich and he gave to the poor
He'd a hand and a heart and a brain.

As down the G**n came McAlpine's men with their shovels slung behind them.
It was in the pub that they drank their sub or down in the spike you'll
find them.
We sweated blood and we washed down mud with quarts and pints of beer.
But now we're on the road again with McAlpines Fusiliers.

In G**ndalough lived an auld saint
Renowned for his learning and piety.
His manners was curious and quaint,
And he looked upon girls with disparity.

Oh Danny boy, the pipes, the pipes are calling
From g**n to g**n, and down the mountain side

My name is Patrick Sheehan, and my years are forty-four;
Tipperary is my native place, not far from Galtimore;
I come of honest parents, but now they're lying low;
And many's the happy hour I spent in the G**n of Aherlow.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Thompson
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 04:07 PM

It's true, it's true: the law is an asal.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 03:35 PM

The people who own and run the operation on Cape Breton are Gaels descended from Highland Scots. The Gaelic language is still part of the culture and "glen" belongs to us as much as anyone else. The label clearly states where the product is made and any confusion could only be blamed on the buyer because ther is no attempt to call it Scotch. Part of the irony is that many of the big distilleries in Scotland are owned in Spain.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 02:29 PM

I see they make the whisky in "Glenville, Inverness County". Are they expected to change the name of the town too?

Clearly a linguistically incompetent court.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 12:34 PM

Looks like a lovely glen too Bee

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Bee
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 12:00 PM

Hi-Lo, the problem is that this very small distillery has already spent money marketing, labelling and promoting their single malt under the Glen Breton name. They are located in an area where many surrounding communities include the word 'glen' in their names, and it is (along the Cabot Trail) one of the more internationally well known parts of Cape Breton. I'm sure initially the name they chose seemed like a no-brainer in terms of locality recognition.

I don't know where you live, but this: "It is not, the court found, unreasonable to assume that Whiskey containg the word Glen would be from Scotland" would in fact seem unreasonable to many people. Scotland, however fine a country it is, is not the centre of the universe.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 11:54 AM

Gosh I never realized there were quite so many Canadian whiskies although I see the Glenora is the only single malt whisky.

The Fine Sève sounds lovely, wished I'd known about this before my visit to Montreal last year.

Is the story about the Japenese Whisky label describing the contests as "Made from all 100% Scottish grapes" apocrythal; I've heard they actually produce some nice single malts.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 11:08 AM

I think that if one reads the descision carefully it is not the word Glen where the problem lies. The court appeared to believe, with some justification, that there was an attempt to mislead consumers by assosiating a Canadian malt with traditional Scottish ones. It is not, the court found, unreasonable to assume that Whiskey containg the word Glen would be from Scotland. This type of control is often found on wines, cheeses and other products. Even if it may some foolish to some, the legal precedent has been set, the court simply followed it. Perhaps the soloution would be to call the whiskey in question..Cape Breton single malt whiskey, would that not solve this.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Bee
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 08:49 PM

Kat, I found that page through sheer serendipity - googled Upper Middleboro, NS, and it was in the first hit. Recognized what it was (been down that census route before!) and Bob's yer uncle... or maybe yer aunt Roberta...

'Course, I doubt there's gonna be too many references to Upper Middleboro - it ain't exactly a bustling urban centre!

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 07:29 PM

I will walk through the dark
And the wild GLEN sae dreary
And return wi' me spoils
Tae the bower of me dearie


That's capitalism

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Skivee
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 07:25 PM

FWIW While researching my tome, I found it spelled 3 way, two of them on official sites.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 05:54 PM

Well, I've been through there but I never had a need to spell it before. There used to be a dinner theater there, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Skivee
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 04:32 PM

Rap- FYI: The correct spelling of the town you cited in Maryland is G**n BurnIE. I'm partial to the name because, unless my tourist Gaelic fails me, the name refers to a stream that runs through the glen. The town is actually on the edge of the largest estuarial plain on the planet. This means that there is no G**n in G**n Bernie. It is a lovely town gaily dotted with transmission repair shops, Tattoo parlors, abandoned strip malls, porn shops, government buildings and fast food establishments. Most members of the community are on government watch lists for a variety of reasons. Many pets vanish from the town. Nearly all whiskey consumed in G**n Bernie was made in Toledo, Ohio...last week.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 04:08 PM

Leave us our ****s

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 03:50 PM

I guess it will have to be known as the (deleted) Miller Orchestra, huh? No, both of those might be forbidden.

"Ladies and gentlemen, for your entertainment, the (deleted) (deleted) (deleted)!"

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Becca72
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 03:28 PM

I've no idea what to call my cousin Glen now...

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 03:16 PM

Uh-oh, Emma! Now what are we to do? My ggrandparents came from NEW Nova Scotia? Nah, too redundnat! How about ...came...came from Nova Socia-West? Or, Nova Scotia -New World, i.e. NS-NW? Oh, it's so confusing!**bg**

Bee, oh boy! No, I had not seen that. Thanks, I think. If I get lost will you throw a rope? Just kidding, I love getting lost in those kinds of sites. I am reminded now, looking through the names, that we have some other names,too. I'll have to look them up. I know on my mom's side we have some McKims and well as others. But they weren't in NS that I know of. This is fun anyway! Thanks!

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Bee
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 02:41 PM

http://automatedgenealogy.com/census11/EnumerationDistrict.jsp?sdid=319

Have you seen this link, kat? I took a glance in the first four views and saw a few Fountains.

That is a beautiful part of the province, by the way. Husband and I use a cottage up there sometimes, it's blueberry and fossil territory, legendary shipbuilding/schooner building history - the Marie Celeste was built in Spencer's Island down the coast.

I'd love to be related to you, but with those names it would be unlikely. However, the common family names (in my family) that might give you that genetic 'look' are Johnson, Beaton, Bartlett, Link (Lynk), Morrison, MacDonald.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 02:28 PM

Errrr....
Nova Scotia is just down the road from here!

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 02:05 PM

Careful, Rapaire...might not be able to use "Halifax" again! It's gotta be from somewhere else, right?*bg*

Bee, wow, wonder if we are related? My great-grandparents on my dad's side came from Nova Scotia. Ggrandma was born in "Upper Middleboro" and was a Fountain which we think may have been "La Fountain" a long time ago. She married a Crawford, my ggranddad. Her mother was a Sutherland and there is a Gordon in there, too. (I don't have my files handy at the moment.) I think most of their families stayed there when G&G came to Colorado.

Ggranddad certainly missed Nova Scotia. He asked my dad to learn to play Maple Leaf Forever for him when he learned to play fiddle as a kid. No one in CO knew it, at the time. My dad always regretted never learning what the tune was before his granddad died. Many, many years later, I was able to get it for him, from other Mudcatters, and send him a tape of it so he did finally learn it. I hope he and Gg. caught up to one another when he passed on, so he could *play* it for him, finally.

I'd like to see them tell my ggranddad what names he could and could not use. He was about 6'4" and fierce-looking with a full white beard. My dad said he was really very kind and soft-spoken.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 12:56 PM

Oh dear! Whatever will this do to my accounts invested in the Bank (whoops! can't use that)....

Oh dear! Whatever will this do to my accounts invested in the (Deleted) of (Deleted) (Deleted). You know -- the Money Keeping Place Of The Region Around Halifax.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Owns The Glen?
From: Bee
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 12:38 PM

Oh, good grief. Goes a ways towards explaining why most of my ancestors left Scotland, maybe.

Kat, you have some NS roots? Maybe that explains why, seeing your pic somewhere on Mudcat a while back, I immediately thought you bear a striking resemblance to one of my great-aunts.