BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid

Subject: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,open mike
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 07:44 PM

I do not see a thread on this yet..
today i heard news reports about a
Latter Day Saints Cult (Mormon)
which was apparently practicing
multiple marriages with some under
aged "wives" involved. An emergency
phone call alerted authorities to
problems, and many children have
been removed and mahy women have
left the area. I think the members
had moved to Texas from Utah when
they got in troubel with the law
there.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 07:50 PM

Laurel, there have been references to it on this thread and also here
but it possibly deserves a thread that can't be just diverted into into other issues or just turn the page over

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 08:30 PM

Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 08:42 PM

Because.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 10:22 PM

This has the clearer title, but I'm not going to repeat myself. There has been a lot of discussion of this on other threads.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 11:47 PM

Thread 34518, Polygamy.
Polygamy

Bountiful, British Columbia, has had a colony for many years. The Mounted Police investigated briefly in 2006, but no prosecutions.
It is unclear whether prohibition of polygamy in Canada is legal under current statutes.
Merchants in the nearby town of Creston consider them to be good, reliable customers.
Bountiful is listed at about 1000 members in the commune.

Some Muslims in the Toronto-Ottawa regions are said to maintain polygamous marriages (four wives permitted) according to Alia Hogben, executive director of the Canadian Council of Muslim Women.

(Some of this posted in another thread recently)

Not pertinent, but at the bottom of this thread Google has put the adv. "Wives in Utah," "These Local Wives Like to Play Around...With You? Join for Free!" Have you clicked on it?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 09:09 AM

My Google ads, this time:

"See Mormon Personal Ads"

"Polygamy Personals"

I suppose there's someting for everyone on the internet...

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 09:44 AM

There are, I understand, polygamist families around here. They keep low and don't involve underage people.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 01:25 PM

The issue with the FLDS is that the girls do not have a choice whether they are married or not and to whom. They do not have a choice whether they want to get pregnant or not.
Robert Jay Lifton is an excellent source of information on groups like this. He studied the POW's coming back from North Korea, as we saw behavior in those POW's that at the time was called brainwashing. The term used now is thought reform or mind control. The groups doing this are totalistic groups. Lifton's criteria that identify such groups can be read here:


http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria


Not all 8 criteria are necessary for a group to be totalistic.

The FLDS group has a rare form of retardation created by the inbreeding. You can read about it here at wikipedia.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumarase_deficiency


Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 01:52 PM

"The groups doing this are totalistic groups. Lifton's criteria that identify such groups can be read here:
...
Not all 8 criteria are necessary for a group to be totalistic."


hmmm.. #3, 5, 6, AND 8 would apply to many discussions here on Mudcat... global warming, anything political...

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 01:55 PM

There is no leader on Mudcat forcing people to believe a doctrine. People are free to express their opinion. If you feel you have a minority opinion, that does not mean someone is forcing you to change your opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 02:03 PM

I find that people have a great deal of trouble understanding the concepts of thought reform, mind control and totalistic groups - and tolerance.

Many do not know how to draw the line between a benign unusual group or belief and a totalistic group using mind control that damages or endangers others.
As an evolving race, we are trying to provide worldwide "human rights".
If you can understand that concept, then you need to recognize there is a line drawn between the right to believe something and the right to be free of being damaged or controlled physically or psychologically.

Yes, we have rights, but human rights means there is a limit to what someone can do to another person. Although we still have things in the world like slavery, cannibalism, human sacrifice, ethnic cleansing, honor killing, that does not mean people can be allowed to do these actions based on their religious belief. One must learn to understand what tolerance is. Tolerance does not mean allowing rape and slavery because someone says it is part of their religion.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 02:17 PM

Alice:

Social ostracism, verbal abuse, being made fun of, put into the "less than human " catagory, ... seems a lot like the same pressures that other totalitarian groups use.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 02:23 PM

Bruce, when humiliation is allowed, personal attacks, etc., I agree that this is a tool of totalism. It is part of the "us vs. them", and I am glad that the clones say they will try to control this. It can be hard to have a minority opinion in a group. You are right that totalistic groups either force out those who do not agree or pressure them until they conform. I do think Mudcat is full of opinions, we are a group that likes to discuss our opinions, but hopefully the attacks will not be tolerated.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 03:25 PM

The Hutterite (Anabaptist) colonies in Western Canada and U. S. ostracize anyone who leaves the colony; parents and colony members are barred from contacting them (of course some do) and I have seen Hutterite parents break into tears when they remember a son or daughter who left and can be seen only secretly and rarely.
In Alberta, Hutterite children are educated approximately to 9th grade level, within the colony, and taught English and a form of low German; the few that break away are thus restricted in the jobs they can do. Television, musical instruments, personal cars, etc. are barred.

Within the colonies, some individuals have taught themselves (or in a colony apprentice system) to be computer-savvy as well as skilled in a trade; these individuals operate colony commercial automated poultry raising, service and repair expensive equipment, built farm structures and family living quarters and install subfloor heating, etc., etc. The colony I have visited often is up to date in many ways.
The women mostly are skilled in making clothes and cooking, taking care of flocks and gardening; they do not operate major machinery such as combines, and are not permitted to drive.

Music outside the church is not permitted, thus popular and folk music is non-existent- but the young often sneak away to nearby farms of non-Hutterites, and some know an amazing amount about current movies and pop songs.
The adults themselves also sneak away when in town and see a film, or go to a non-Hutterian farm and watch television. They are always on the lookout for books- the women go through romance novels, the men like instructional materials or factual magazines like Nat. Geographic. Perhaps a few more generations and they will change or perhaps not.

A colony or two in the States, and I think one in Manitoba, are said to have abandoned the rigorous separation from our type of life, and seem to be regarded as beyond the pale, but I don't know any members from these wayward colonies, so know very little about them.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 03:50 PM

We have Hutterites in Montana, Q. They raise excellent produce and livestock. They sell it at our local farmer's market and food co-op. I've had them come over to my art booth in the past at the farmer's market and chat with me, the girls and women. I had a penny whistle with me one day, and a girl came over and asked me if I could play "Golden Slippers". The ones living near us must have more freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 04:37 PM

The Hutterites mention a colony in Montana that is relatively open, but I am not familiar with those outside of Alberta.
Hutterites do like to talk, subjects much like those of any other farming group, but one stays away from topics that would upset them. They have a store of jokes, many pc, garnered in town or neighboring farms, that is unlimited.

It should be remembered that the bulk of the members go along with the 'totalitarian' ways- just nibble at the edges, as it were. They do not seem to tell tales on one another, not talking about minor indidcretions.

sThe colony I know best- I won't name it- is pretty well off. A sort of 'dividend' is paid to each family, which is used for personal items. A toaster-oven for the kitchen (meals are communal, but snacks, coffee, etc are made in the home), more goodies are made communally than can be consumed in the dining hall and there is always something for guests and talk. A popular item, not talked about when the boss is around because forbidden, is a digital camera; another is a radio and small tv, if they can get a signal, again forbidden but kept in the basement area, out of sight of the 'boss.'

The 'boss' of the colony I visit, I think, knows what is going on but doesn't interfere unless it is a serious matter. Strict, but knows when not to make an issue of something relatively minor. He is not a 'king,' but has been selected for the position.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 06:43 PM

Back to the thread topic, there is a good article in a Utah paper about this called "A Tainted Womb".


Daily Utah Chronicle

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 07:55 PM

The student who wrote the opinion makes his point, but separation from the mother may exacerbate the mental upsets.

Do the mothers agree with the treatment accorded by the 'fathers'? Is it a general failure of these colonies that the young are mistreated? Are all the men at fault or just a few? I don't know.

From the articles I have read, it seems that a few men are responsible in the colonies so far raided; if so, separation of children and mothers seems draconian.
It seems to me a case by case examination would be better. But without details, I repeat, "I don't know."

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 08:34 PM

Child Protective Services works on a case by case basis. But the children do not all know who their natural mother is, so it will take time to sort that out. They call all the women mother who are married to their father.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 08:46 PM

This is a you tube video of a film recently made called "Damned to Heaven". The sound of Warren Jeff's voice is narrating. Women and men talk about what happened to their children and to themselves in the FLDS cult.

Damned To Heaven

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 08:46 PM

Ummmm, not to be sounding unsypathetic but I'd like to know ehat the olther girls think... Seems to me that everone was well dressed---okay, not my style of clothes mind you, but clean... The compound loooked weel kept... Not exactlty Charles Manson's farm....

I ain't prejudgeing here and will wait until more facts come in but this bust does arouse my libertarian suspiscions...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 08:49 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1cTk2cJQac

Sorry, more direct link


Damned To Heaven

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 09:05 PM

So it is ok to rape a 14 year old as long as you give her clean clothes?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 09:30 PM

15 year old running away from FLDS
telephone conversation and video
corrected link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xPJPHIx590

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 09:36 PM

The most recent story in the Dallas Morning News says 416 children and 139 adult women were removed from the colony. Siblings are being encouraged to stay together.
The girl who called a family violence center has not yet been identified, and may have been spirited out, or may be too scared to come forward.
Some details of the formation of the group have been ascertained. In 2003-2004, Jeffs, the leader, took children under the age of six from the Utah-Arizona colonies and brought them to Texas without their parents, according to a former sect member (who has 38 siblings). Most of the children have never attended public school. Most seem to be the children of the 'inner circle,' including Jeffs. Birth records, etc. found at the site may help social workers to sort the children. A hearing Apr. 17 will apparently determine if the children remain in custody or are returned to Eldorado.
Medical and educational needs are being assessed. About 500 volunteers are working with the children and female parents who left the colony with them.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D90002100.htm
Story by Jennifer Dobner, Associated Press, 04/12/2008

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 09:42 PM

Interview of former FLDS member.
"Inside Warren Jeff's World"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0RV4fKtKp0

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 09:50 PM

And all those 'wonderful clean clothes' were sewn by hand by the mothers. Does that mean it's OK to 'marry off' a girl of 13 and keep her pregnant the rest of her life?

Please, folks, read some of the books by the escaped wives. Please.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 09:56 PM

Banking on Heaven
video First woman says, "I spent 17 years being beat by my mother cause I wouldn't be obedient to my Father. And he wanted me in his bed. I never will back down."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI6pBftroEc

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 10:01 PM

Listen to Banking On Heaven, above link. Voting as a block to take over county government. Welfare income because the mother's that are not legally married claim welfare for their children. Corruption and abuse, see the video.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 10:06 PM

You can order the full documentary of Banking on Heaven at
http://www.bankingonheaven.com

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 10:14 PM

Q, I don't CARE if the Hutterites 'seem' OK to you. Or if any 'other' polygamous sect/cult seems 'OK' to you. What is going on inside the Warren Jeffs cult is evil. Pure, unfathomable evil to me.

A 'father' held a crying infant's head under running water to 'teach' it to be silent while another 'mother' held the infants birth mother. This is OK? Just one incident among many. Read the books. Watch the videos.


Please.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 11:26 PM

I did not say that the Hutterites were polygamous. I did not say that this polygamous sect seemed OK. Jeffs needs to be stopped. You are inventing a position for me. You obviously have poor reading ability and your autonomic nervous system needs tranquilizers.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 12:10 AM

Underground Polygamy Railroad Fawn & Fawn Run!
Interview of 16 year old girls escaping.
Interview of mother trying to keep her 16 year old
daughter from being given to a an older man.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HonSp_Lmjrk

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 01:02 AM

Bobert,

I'm surprised! You should know better than to assume that sexual abuse does not happen to women who are well dressed and well fed. In fact, Bobert, sexual abuse happens across the socio-economic spectrum. I can't believe you said what you did.

Tell me I misunderstood.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 01:45 AM

OK, then, Q, I'm sorry. I thought that was what you 'seemed' to be implying. I was wrong. No reason to insult me though.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Megan L
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 04:36 AM

Q whether someone agrees with you or not, whether they understand you or have missinterpreted something you wrote there is no excuse for pouring out such vitriolic personal abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 08:31 AM

Woe down there, ladies...

I ain't condoning sexual abuse or rape.... The kinda behavior is the worst sin I can think of 'cuase it mars a woman for life...


Maybe I'm just not glued 24/7 to the TV so maybe there is alot of "factual" evidence that I am not aware and in that case... I've just become paranoid of the media... Especially after the the mad-dash-to-Iraq...

If sexual abuse occured then I'm glad alll these girls are now safe but my gut feeling is that there is more the story than meeats the eye...

Think Ruby Ridge here...

I don't know...

I'll try to get bettyer informed but, for God's sake, I do not condone sexual misconduct...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 08:49 AM

Some good news from 'The Children of Diversity' aka The Lost Boys of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints ("FLDS")

Beginning in 2002 the FLDS church began exiling young men between the ages of 14 and 23 for infractions that were in violation of church tenets. These infractions could be talking to a girl, wearing a short sleeved t-shirt, listening to music or watching television.
Former members claim that the real reason for these 'excommunications' is that there are not enough women for each male to receive three or more wives as dictated by their beliefs in order to be 'glorified in heaven'

On March 20th this year the six young men who brought the "Lost Boys" lawsuit against Warren Jeffs and the FLDS Church filed court papers to voluntarily dismiss their case as they had met their goals

Those objectives included -
wresting control of the trust from church leaders - FLDS parents who didn't give in to Church control and expel their sons or marry their daughters when commanded risked losing their homes.

ousting some members of the police department in the church-controlled border towns of Colorado City, Ariz., and Hildale, Utah - who acted as "little more than the Church's private security force."

helping law enforcement locate victims of child abuse willing
to testify against Jeffs - Jeffs was tried and convicted in Utah last September for his role in facilitating the rape of a 14-year-old and is now awaiting trial in Arizona on additional charges.

to pass legislation making it illegal to abandon minors by intentionally causing parents to kick their children out of their homes - The Child and Family Protection Act was passed this year by the Utah Legislature making possible the criminal prosecution of Church leaders who make parents choose between their religion and their children
details here

Walter Fischer, one of the Lost Boy plaintiffs stated, "The only thing left to do is to go after money and this case has never been about that."

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 09:10 AM

'If sexual abuse occured then I'm glad alll these girls are now safe'

Unfortunately bobert it's just not that simple.... think instead Short Creek.

'COLORADO CITY, Ariz. — Horrified by stories of rape, incest and men taking young girls as brides, the new governor of Arizona quietly made plans to invade this polygamist settlement in the summer of 1953.

By day's end, families and crying children were separated in a scene that would haunt political leaders for years to come. In all, 36 men were arrested. Authorities loaded 86 women and 263 children aboard buses to Phoenix.

C.D. Tyra, 86, a former highway patrolman who took part in the raid, recalled encountering a girl, about 8. She showed off her new patent leather shoes, which Tyra noticed were actually well-worn and stuffed with cardboard to make them fit.

"She was so proud of those shoes," he recalled.

"Then my partner Frank said to me, 'How would you feel if that was your little girl and she was going to get married that night?' That really got me."

BUT the public was angrier at the state than at the polygamists.

Arizona Gov. J. Howard Pyle, a Republican, took to the radio, saying "the foulest conspiracy you could imagine" was underway in the community. He said there had been wholesale abuse and enslavement of children, especially girls who were forced into a "shameful mockery of marriage."

"Here is a community dedicated to the wicked theory that every maturing girl child should be forced into bondage of multiple wifehood with men of all ages for the sole purpose of producing more children to be reared to become more chattels of this totally lawless enterprise," he told the radio audience.

As sympathy built for the FLDS, Pyle was denounced and ridiculed by newspaper editorials. The raid was called "Pyle's Folly."

The raid's results were meager in court as well. Charges of statutory rape and contributing to the delinquency of a minor were dropped. The men pleaded guilty to conspiracy to violate laws against bigamy, and open and notorious cohabitation. One-year suspended sentences were handed out. Many promptly returned to Short Creek with their families.

For years, the raid was memorialized each July with speeches and parades. Town officials erected a monument to the event.'

from Los Angeles Times, USA
May 12, 2006

Don't let history repeat itself here.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 11:30 AM

At least the leader Warren Jeffs is in prison, but I agree, Emma, the girls and boys and wives are not yet safe.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 11:36 AM

Some things is real messes up, that much is fir sure...

Ummmmmm, I my concern is two-fold... First there is abuse and second there is liberty... I lived briefly in a commune in the 60's and we were viewed by many locals as "evil" though there was no alcohol allowed, no physical violence allowed (which would include sexual abuse) and for the most part folks there just wanted to be left alone... But to the many of the young townies we were the enemy...

This is where liberty comes into play... Certina cultures continue to arrange marriages and in those cultures the divorce rate is lower than the US's genaral rate??? I donno???

I think when we try to gentrify culture we have gone too far...

I will try to become better informed about the Texas case but if there were, say, 500 people living there and half a dozen of them were bad people than, by inlarge, that smapling is purdy peaceful compared to the population on the whole... Like I said, I'll trym to get mote info but my initial ***reaction*** and yes, it is just that, that if there were a dozen bad apples then why punish the entire group... Juts get the bad apples??? Ain't that what law enforcment does everywhere else???

I donno... Something just bugs me when an entire group of folks get rounded up and, in essence, detained... Lotta the piocures I've seen are of some very nomrmal looking people... BTW, I live in Mennonite country so seeing folks dressed in, what some folks would say is funny, is normal around here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 11:43 AM

It has already been proven in court that the group has institutionalized rape of minor girls. That is why the leader is in prison.
Look at what I wrote above. Having unusual clothes or culture has NOTHING to do with this. You're not getting the point, bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Peace
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 12:29 PM

I think many people are missing the point. There are laws to deal with shit like that. ENFORCE THE LAW! If men are 'interfering' with young children--I'm old enough to think of anyone under the age of 30 as young--then throw the trash in jail, get counselling for the kids.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Peace
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 12:39 PM

And a question I have regarding this: has there been concomitant abuse of male children?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 12:40 PM

Bobert, would you have said the same thing about Jim Jones and his followers? It is about mind control and power over all congregates. What Jeffs says is essentially the word of god to ALL members and anyone who dares to question that will be punished, in most cases, quite severely. This is not a question of a few hippies living off the land, playing folk music or whatever. This has a long history, over 100 years, and has been a dirty little secret for too long in this country.

I was married, for three years, to a regular LDS member. I warned him if they came to my house to try to convert me, I would meet them at the door with a shotgun. They did not bother me. The control his older brother had over him eventually took him away from me and his stepchildren and daughter, when she was just a baby. I am grateful it got me out of that marriage in a short time.

Even regular LDS are extremely patriarchal and must be obeyed, esp. by their women. I have a Mormon cousin who had something like 13 kids. His wife's heart was dying, yet he impregnated her, again, and sure enough, just as the docs predicted, she died giving birth to the last child, born prematurely because mom's heart was done in. I despise my cousin for doing that to his wife and was angry for a long time at her, even though I'd never met her, for allowing him to do that to her. But, when I thought about how she was raised, it was no surprise and reminded me of why I have a prejudice against patriarchal religious people.

In the hospital where I worked, in a community of regular LDS, we used to joke about having to let Mormon fathers in the delivery room so they could start making the next baby once that one was delivered. It's what they expect of their women. Remember this is "mainstream" LDS. In that same hospital, I watched as a woman's uterus fell out of her body, prolapsed because it couldn't hold in any more babies, it was so worn out and had lost its elasticity. THAT baby was born at 7 months, barely able to survive and do you know what the docs had to do because the woman's husband insisted and she had to go along with it? They stitched her uterus back up inside her, rather than perform a hysterectomy because her husband wanted to be sure they could have more babies! She was in her 30s.

Then there was the man whose wife and children were on vacation in Salt Lake City. He lost her and, I think it was five of his children, to a car accident. It was a terrible shock to the whole community. Six months later, he was already remarried to a woman who had her own children and who immediately became pregnant by him, so he could perpetuate his duties or whatever they call it.

Bobert, those were all so-called mainstream Mormons. Multiply that kind of control, etc. a hundredfold and more and you might get an inkling of what it is like for the women and children of FLDS. They may have organic, fresh food and nice cotton clothing, but those are just trappings. I do not use the word "evil" lightly when I say there is evil deep down in those communities and the few who try to fight it have horrendous stories to tell. Please do not doubt their veracity nor the authorities who have believed in them.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 12:52 PM

Bruce, all the children are raised to fear anyone not of FLDS, beatings are normal, forced labor in the fields at a young age, no education except the FLDS doctrine, no books, living in fear that they may do something wrong. Boys reaching puberty are often turned out because the older men see them as competition for the girls for brides. See the Lost Boys.

Here is a web site of a young woman who escaped FLDS.

http://outofpolygamy.com/

That site may help answer some questions for people who do not understand the abuse in FLDS.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Peace
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 12:56 PM

Read what that lady wrote (kat). She's right!

Sexual 'slavery' however ya dress it up is still sexual slavery. Hell, let's make up some bloody religion and have one of the tenets be "Children must be chained work stations until they have filled their 'production quota' or reach the age of twenty-one. GOD demands this. It has been revealed!

I would have no problem killing any person who tried to subject my daughter(s) to that kind of treatment. Not in the name of religion, economics--in fact not for any reason whatsoever. However, that is easy for me to conceptualize because I wasn't told from the time I was born that "that is the way things are". The 'problem' (more like a travesty of anything that resembles justice) is ingrained. For example, the law in Alberta states that children will remain in school until they are 16 years old. Hutterites remove their children on their 15th birthday. The government does nothing--turns a blind eye. Why? Because it's easier than doing something. I guess they 'fear' the backlash of these various religious idiots who create self-serving religious credos and then 'go forth' to carry out those credos regardless the consequences to kids or families. This then falls back on main-stream society to get off its collective ass and FORCE laws to be enforced. Is it gonna happen? IMO, best not to hold yer breath on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 12:56 PM

Here is a case of abuse of an FLDS boy.
Justice for Johnny

http://outofpolygamy.com/justiceforjohnny.html

quote
Justice for Johnny
My little brother John William Nicholson attended Alta Academy while Warren Jeffs was headmaster. My brother was in the same grade and class with Brent Jeffs, the young man who publicly accused Warren Jeffs, Leslie Jeffs and Blaine Jeffs of sodomizing and molesting him at Alta Academy. end quote

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Peace
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 12:58 PM

Thanks, Alice. Just opened this thread for the first time. The situation is disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 01:59 PM

Lifton's criteria of totalism that I referred to earlier in the thread is described on this linked page, with examples given of how each relates to the FLDS cult. All 8 criteria exist in FLDS.
http://outofpolygamy.com/mindcontrol.html

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 02:14 PM

Let me see if I have this right... ***All*** the men in this place are rapists??? Some of the men??? A few of the men???

I'm not trying to be obstinate here... I just don't have time to read s bunch of stories so please forgive me if I juts cut to the chase...

Just how widespread is the rape???

And forgive me here but how are we defining rape???

In some states a 14 year old girl has the hots for an 18 years old boy and after the consentaul deep is done it is legally considered rape....

Ummmmmmm, not to sound to argumetative but aren't we all products of our envirnments and culture??? I mean, down to sex... We all, to some degree, are motivated to behave in a certain way because others in the group behave that way... I understand cult but I also understand liberty and freedom of the individual to join groups...

I do draw the line when people are hurt... That is wrong... But when people aren't hurt but the society outside the alternative group try to appl;y their morays and valules to others there is a line where one's liberty is infringed upon...

I donno... This is a tough one...

Like I said, I need to learn more about this... I've got way to much one-armed-man work to to today to get real bogged down but I would appreciate someone answering the question I began this post with, thank you...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 02:18 PM

Bobert, you say you want to learn more about this. Reading the info already referenced in this thread will do the trick.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 02:23 PM

I'm not going to copy and paste all of those articles into the thread.
Here is part of one regarding the conviction of Warren Jeffs, the leader.
The men who were accomplice to Jeffs are the ones who participated in "spiritually marrying", having sex with, underage girls against the girls' will.
Some of those men are on probation as sex offenders. Some are still going to trial. The leader, Warren Jeffs, is now in prison.
--

Utah jury convicts Jeffs
Verdict a start to ending forced marriages of underage girls
Daphne Bramham, Vancouver Sun
Published: Wednesday, September 26, 2007

ST. GEORGE, Utah -- The conviction Tuesday of fundamentalist Mormon prophet Warren Jeffs on two counts of being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old girl is a first step toward ending the polygamous group's forced marriages of underage girls.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Amos
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 02:26 PM

The eight principles listed in that article, Alice, are reminiscent of many groups and cults, including some variants of "main stream" Christian ones.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 02:28 PM

Yes, Amos, you are right. It is a matter of degree.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 02:34 PM

Understanding thought reform is a matter of seeing behavior not as black or white, all or nothing. You have to be able to critically think about to what degree, how extreme, are the criteria present in a group, because many benign groups can have some aspects of the criteria.

------
Lifton wrote that any group has some aspects of these points. However, if an environment has all eight of these points and implements them in the extreme, then there is unhealthy thought reform taking place.
quote, http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/responsibility/lifton.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Peace
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 02:34 PM

Nope. It's a matter of interpretation. And, IMO, that is BS. Enforce the law. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 02:35 PM

'The phrase 'statutory rape' is a general term used to describe sexual relations that take place when an individual (regardless of age or gender) has consensual sexual relations with an individual not old enough to legally consent to the behavior
The term.. generally refers to sex between an adult and a sexually mature minor past the age of puberty'
wiki

There is suffcient evidence that the practice of entering into 'spiritual marriages' (so called because polygamy is illegal) by 'elders' with young women below the age of legal consent was a wide spread practice in this cult.

In addition many, although not all (these girls were brought up from birth with a strong sense of 'duty'), could be considered to be 'forced marriages'

While the tradition of arranged marriages has operated successfully within many communities and many countries for a very long time;
a clear distinction must be made between a forced marriage and an arranged marriage.

In arranged marriages the families of both spouses take a leading role in arranging the marriage but the choice whether to accept the arrangement remains with the individuals.

In forced marriage at least one party does not consent to the marriage and some element of duress is involved.

In the FDLS it was also known for parents who objected to the spiritual marrige of their daughter to a much older man (frequently a relative) to be evicted from their own homes on cult land.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 02:44 PM

There is no need for me to get bogged down in the minutiae of a debate on this one, and there is no middle ground. It is not acceptable to force young children into spiritual marriage (whatever the hell that is!) and then beat them, and have sex with them, especially full grown men. I don't need to read the articles, I don't care to have reasoned debate. It is wrong, period. One of the problems we have in this world is that we mistake the fact that they look grown, and are able to have worldly conversation on a variety of topics, with actually being an adult. They are not. The years from 12 to 18 or 20 are the years that they begin the mental maturation to deal with the world. Any fiend who proclaims himself God, and uses his experience and image as a man who must be obeyed, to force sex on little girls and create babies, is a monster and should be destroyed. Any person who warps a growing young woman's mind into believing her true calling is to be his sexual slave, and a baby factory, has a twisted view of religion, couched in his own weakness and desire to have sex with property instead of with a partner. In my view these young people should never see their fathers again or the women who are unrepentant. The children need strong counseling, and will likely never recover the sense of self determination that was robbed from them at a very young age.

And before anyone raises it, I would feel the same without regard to what religion someone was using for cover. People that twist the wonderful messages that religion carries for their own use have a special section in Hades, especially where they are doing so at the expense of children. I would not hesitate for a moment to hasten their arrival into their own eternal living quarters.

Mick, disgusted that there is any equivocation on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 02:53 PM

Thank you, Mick.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 02:54 PM

'I understand cult but I also understand liberty and freedom of the individual to join groups...

bobert, the young people being described here are not converts into some religious belief or willing recruits to an alternative life style.

They have been brought up since infancy cut off from outside society and it's 'norms'
Jeffs would not accept any child over the age of 6 years into the cult as he regarded that they had already become 'contaminated'

Even the parents (and possibly the grandparents) of these unfortunate programmed children are themselves a product of the same abusive practices that have been going on for over 50 years - see my post at 9.10am earlier today.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 02:55 PM

Thanks Mick and Bruce also.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Melissa
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 04:29 PM

An article about the role of women in Mormonism:
http://www.exmormon.org/mormwomn.htm

Somewhere on the site, there's also a list of Church-Owned businesses and information/history from an outside/inside viewpoint.
For a broader insight on why members fall for things like polygamy, see some of the articles about Independent Thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 05:10 PM

Bobert, you say you want to learn, but don't have the time to read the material. So I guess you won't learn.

For the record, imo, no, not all of the men are accused of raping and impregnating young girls, but by their living there and allowing it to happen to their own daughters, they are complicit and as guilty, imo, as the rapers.

If you really want to learn, do some reading and watch the videos.

Thanks, Melissa, for the link.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 06:07 PM

I will read thje articles...

I agree with just about evryone here... Brainwashing children to thisnk iot is their duty to have sex with someone not of their choosing is horrendous and hideous... It makes me sick!!!

Again, I live in an area that is strongly Mennonite and, UIMHO, the Mennonites are kinda cultish... But Mennonite women are expected to marry Mennonite men and are on accasion pressured to marry a certain Mennonite man...

Okay, this may not be even worth discussing here... But, conversely, it may...

What I do know is that when stories like this one breaks there is a rendency to sensationalize it... I'm sure that the Washington Post will ahve had time to get beyond that stage and will read the Post's version of events in tomorrow's Sunday edition and then perhaps come back here with some further thoughts...

At least, unlike Ruby Ridge and Waco, no one got killed here that I've heard of... That's a plus...

But, yeah, what Big Mick said are my exact sentiments, no ifs and or but's about it...

I would love for Ebbie to wade in and share some of her thoughts on being raised, if I am not mistaken, as a Mennonite...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 06:23 PM

The videos are primary sources - interviews of the people who this has happened to in FLDS. You would be hearing their experiences from their own mouths. Maybe your internet connection can't run the videos?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Peace
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 06:59 PM

One of the things that is even more disgusting than the 'facts' that are emerging is the likelihood that many people nearby who are not involved KNEW about it but allowed business as usual to continue. This is some seriously sick stuff. And it is true: all it takes for bad things to happen is for good people to do nothing.

See the Jim Keegstra case from Eckville, Alberta. He taught his students that the Holocaust did NOT happen. He did that for years before a mother who'd moved to town read her (can't recall if it was daughter or son's) childs homework and began to ask a few questions.

This is our world. WTF are we allowing this kind of stuff for? And last, WHERE WAS THE LAW?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 07:41 PM

Yeah... Where was the law???

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 10:57 PM

Turning a blind eye because of 'religious freedom' OR the Law are also members of the same 'religion'. That happens quite frequently within the FLDS.

I will not paint the Amish and Mennonites with the same brush as the LDS. At least their children are given a 'wilding' year to decide if they want to remain in the community. The FLDS children are given NO choices about anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Melissa
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 03:10 AM

This isn't a small, disorganized cult we're talking about. I haven't needed to learn about Compounds or Polygamy yet, but I've spent quite a lot of time learning everything I can in hopes of figuring out why the law lays so low here.
It's thread drift, and I apologize for that.

I have decided that our sheriff dept guys were intimidated/scared/unsure..and although they're supposed to be able to ignore those things, I can understand taking the "wait and see" approach in hopes of never having to be involved.

We don't have a Compound.
We have a School for Troubled Teens.

Mormons have Generational Memory, excellent PR skills and a talent for screaming "Persecution!" when they're caught breaking laws.
Doesn't anybody wonder WHY they keep such excellent geneology records?

I think the practical way for the Law to handle the Texas Compound would be to let the children and moms live there for a while and set it up like a women's shelter with outside staff to rehab/acclimatize the ones that want to break away. Taking them away and spreading them apart won't give them their minds and let them learn to use them.
A set-up like that would probably cost less, be more effective, create less of a stir and most importantly, it would let the 'innocents' be in an area they're familiar with. That Compound is their Home. The Believers have been put in a position where they will lose their chance at Heaven and there are very few people in the group who would be capable of living happily on the outside without a lot of help getting their feet found. They have learned to be completely dependent and fiercely protective. Some of them probably don't want to be 'rescued' and a lot of them won't have any concept of what being rescued would mean..just that it would be scary and wrong (according to their teachings)

I imagine the county law in Texas is in over their head..and had no clue how to handle the situation. They were probably just hoping nothing would happen to make them have to Do Something.
What was there to do?   Rage into the compound and end up punished for religious persecution?
Those cops are just people, not super-wise superhumans...

I don't want to pull the thread, but here are a couple links to another story for anybody that might be interested in broader information on the type of things these folks know how to get away with.

http://www.isaccorp.org/thayerlearningcenter.asp
http://www.closethayerlearningcenter.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 06:19 AM

'Yeah... Where was the law??? '

'ST. GEORGE, Utah (AP)–A police officer accused of bigamy and illegal sex with a girl he took as a third wife when she was just 16 was convicted by a jury Thursday*.

Jurors ruled that Rodney Holm, an officer in the polygamous border towns of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz., broke Utah law banning sexual relations involving 16- and 17-year-olds when their partner is 10 or more years older, unless the couple is legally married.

Holm, 37, was accused of having sex with Ruth Stubbs when she was 16. He was 32 when he allegedly took Stubbs as a "spiritual'' wife, which is not a legally recognized union.'

*Friday August 15, 2003

'ST. GEORGE - The Utah division of Peace Officer Standards and Training officially voted Tuesday* to revoke the state certification of Colorado City Police Chief Sam Roundy, who's department also has jurisdiction over the bordering town of Hildale.

No one on the board opposed the motion to uphold the decision to decertify both Roundy and another officer.

An internal investigation judge found Roundy to be violating the bigamy laws, as well as improperly handling a child sex abuse case. In that case, Utah POST Director Rich Townsend said Roundy apparently did not properly report the incident to the Division of Child and Family Services.'

* published March 23, 2005

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 06:53 AM

An eight-month investigation by the state of Utah in 2004 found more than half of the police officers in the southern town of Hildale practice polygamy – that is, having more than one spouse.

Hildale has 13 officers who are certified by Utah, seven by our records are polygamists," Attorney General Mark Shurtleff told the Salt Lake Tribune.

He says some on the force were aware of the illegal activity by fellow officers, but did not take any action.

And though Shurtleff himself ordered the inquiry, he's not pursuing criminal charges on any of the accusations.

"We just don't have the resources to start charging bigamy," Shurtleff told the paper.

In a 115-page brief filed with the Utah Supreme Court attorney Rodney Parker (who has represented the UEP and FDLS members) argues the practice of polygamy is a constitutional right

Prosecutors contend that there is no constitutional right to have sex with a minor.
They add offenses such as forced marriages and child and spousal abuse can be difficult to prosecute in closed polygamous communities.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 12:35 PM

I live in the west where we have known about FLDS, other splinter groups and LDS for generations. It is common knowledge that they have their own law enforcement, their own city and county governments, their own staff of lawyers, their own politicians. The splinter groups of LDS vote as a block according to what the leader tells them. There are other towns across the west where only members of one sect lives in the town. Outsiders would not be comfortable or welcome moving in.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 01:17 PM

The FLDS is in Canada, as well.

Edmonton, Canada

And a phone conversation about trafficking girls over the border to Canada.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_DlDojGCi0&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 01:23 PM

To clarify, that is a link to an Edmonton newspaper.
The FLDS is in several places in Canada, but the article is about Bountiful, British Columbia.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 12:11 AM

Our local news just ran a story that some of them, FLDS, may have relocated to a town about an hour away from where we are in western Colorado. Someone has put up a fence for miles surrounding a 36 acre ranch. One townsperson who has spoken to some of the men said they told her they'd just moved up from Texas. She also said there are school-age children who do not go to public schools. The men told her they just want to be left alone. Windows in some of the structures on the property have purportedly been bricked up and no women have been seen.

More info may be forthcoming as the sheriff's dept. and the FBI have been notified. We'll see how it shakes out.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:00 PM

One source of FLDS money - government loans and contracts.
http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/1355580/
Members worked in the FLDS business for little or now wages.
quote from article
"He said he and other sect members thought their working for free or for extremely low wages would bring them redemption. Instead, Nielsen said in the affidavit, he was found to be "wanting" by the sect's leadership, ordered off the property and separated from his five young children and his wife. She was "reassigned" to another man, becoming the fourth of his six wives."

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:04 PM

"At least their children are given a 'wilding' year to decide if they want to remain in the community." Sorcha

The 'wilding' thing is bruited about but to my knowledge it just isn't so, certainly not in relation to girls.   There are books and movies to that effect (some of them are absurd!) but I suspect that the "hocher" got that impression from what some Amish say in explaining their lack of punitive action in relation to the young men of the church going 'wild'. As long as the young man is not a member, the church body has no jurisdiction over them. That is NOT to say that the parents don't.

Melissa: "Doesn't anybody wonder WHY they (Mormons) keep such excellent geneology records?"

Keeping "excellent geneology records" is not necessarily a pernicious thing. The Amish kept/keep excellent oral histories; it is only in recent generations that they have written things down.

I think the record keeping stems from the days when a body of people were or felt they were persecuted. Many smallish communities have alwayz done it. The Thlingits in Alaska do it, the Inuit and the Yup'ik do it, Jews have always done it... One of the most durable and rather charming Amish traits is the immediate question upon meeting an Amish stranger: Who is your father/grandfather?

Now back to the horrific. I wish there were answers, some way of ensuring that the blind ignorance of individuals doesn't do such tremendous harm. After the harm is done, the only recourse is to punish.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:28 PM

From the official LDS website about the question of why Mormons are so involved with genealogy in their beliefs.

"In the spirit world, the restored gospel is preached to those who died without receiving it in mortality. Many of those in the spirit world accept the gospel, but without a body they cannot receive the ordinances necessary for salvation. The primary purpose of family history work is to obtain names and other genealogical information so that temple ordinances can be performed in behalf of deceased ancestors."

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Melissa
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 03:04 PM

Ebbie,
I agree that record keeping is a practical, responsible, handy thing. I also see nothing inherently wrong with communal living.
There's a possibility that my distrust and questioning mind are off base.

Alice,
What does that explanation look like it says to you?

My town has something the church wants and I freely admit that caution, distrust and experience have colored my perspective. The Records fascinate and interest me, and I'd like to know how normal, untainted people see them.

Of course, its connection to the topic at hand is a bit tenuous, so maybe it would be best for me to back out and leave the conversation as I found it.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 03:34 PM

Melissa, the issue is more complicated than what the church posted on its site regarding genealogy.
There are many sects of Mormonism, but the basic belief that the families are all connected in the "celestial" realm and need to be reconnected spawns other beliefs and behavior. Jews have had numerous complaints to the LDS church about baptizing their dead relatives because they are somehow connected to an LDS genealogy.
This is more complicated than we can address on a thread.
The more extreme sects like FLDS see their success in the celestial realm dependent on as many children as possible in this world and finding as many connections by genealogy to non Mormons and baptizing them into their sect after their death. It is a belief interconnected with what we see now in starting young girls in child bearing as soon as possible. The men are building on earth the eternal family they will have in the celestial kingdom.

From WIKI
"Mormonism teaches that marriage is not only divinely instituted, but eternally necessary and significant. Neither a man nor a woman can attain the fullest exaltation by themselves. Mormonism also teaches that since not all people have the opportunity to marry in this life, opportunity will be given them during Christ's millennial reign after His Second Coming. Additionally, Mormonism teaches that only those in the highest realm of the Celestial Kingdom will remain married and be able to form an eternal family. These are those who have made eternal covenants on earth, rather than covenants that cease with death."

I can find my grandfather and ancestors before him on the LDS genealog y web site, because at some point, a mormon has inserted him there as a relative (I don't know who) even though my grandfather was Catholic and none of is ancestors were mormon.

As many connections as possible are added to mormon genealogy through temple rituals and baptism in order to build up the celestial eternal families. I don't really care that they included my grandfaher, as it made me easy to trace large parts of my family tree on their site.
But, this belief is all wrapped up in how they are creating spiritual weddings with minor girls, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Melissa
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 03:41 PM

Thanks, Alice.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 03:52 PM

Good explication, Alice.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 09:33 PM

There is an organization called Help The Child Brides who are providing help to girls and women escaping the sect.
Their web site if you want to help or sign their email peition is
here.
http://helpthechildbrides.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 10:13 PM

Alice, it is my understanding that the Mormon Church, i.e. LDS does not wait to put people on their genealogy roles until they die and are baptised by proxy. I have heard and read of groups of LDS members who take vacations together, travelling to wherever records are kept and copying those records for the LDS database, which one can see/access at ancestry.com if they don't mind the fees. My girlfriends were on vacation in Wales one year. When they went to the national library there was a group of LDS there, copying records, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 11:32 PM

I agree, Kat, they add as many people to their genealogy database as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:44 AM

More about baptism for the dead and preaching to the dead here:
http://lds.about.com/od/basicsgospelprinciples/p/baptized_dead.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:17 AM

update interview about the mothers leaving shelter
probably "ordered" by leader to go back to the ranch
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=4655222&affil=kwyb

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:16 PM

When you watch that video of the FLDS woman talking, notice her AFFECT.
The cult affect is typically kept at a flatline with little high or low show of emotion.
The cult jargon is to "keep sweet". Her way of talking softly and talking through a smile is the lifelong vigilance of "keeping sweet".

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:02 PM

It's not just the women and young people in this cult who are exhorted to 'keep sweet' however.

Ezra Draper left the FDLS community in 2002 after becoming disillusioned with Warren Jeffs.
"Utah and Arizona gave us the ability where we could live our religion as consenting adults." he said describing a church meeting held shortly before he left in which an FLDS leader talked about pressure from Utah and Arizona to stop underage marriages and welfare fraud.
"The deal to us was if we would just stop [those things], they would have no reason, or very little reason, to continue to pursue the FLDS, .I thought 'Hallelujah. We've been asking the Lord for peace all our lives.' But before he finished his paragraph he told us that they'd answered Utah and Arizona with 'No deal.'
"I felt like we were basically given the opportunity to have peace, and Warren chose war."

On 26 July 2003, the fiftieth anniversary of the 1953 raid, Mayor Dan Barlow dedicated a monument and established a museum commemorating the oppressive events of that day. Apparently those proceedings occurred without Warren Jeffs' approval. Offended and angered, he ordered Barlow to grind the monument into powder and sprinkle it in the hills.
Speaking in Sunday Church services on August 10th Jeffs suspended all further religious meetings but continued to allow his followers to pay their tithes and offerings to him.

Jeffs went on to proclaim his edict that children leave the public school and ratcheted up his absolute authority after less than two years as prophet in January 2004, by excommunicating about 20 of the community's most influential and longtime residents, including relatives of the towns' founders for lack of respect they rendered to the priesthood (himself).

The men left without a fight, and Jeffs reassigned their wives and children to other more worthy patriachs

Jeffs was also able to take church members' homes because nearly all land in Hildale and Colorado City was owned by the United Effort Plan, a 60-year-old trust that was controlled by Jeffs and a handful of church leaders.

'Reassigned'? their wives and children

- This is not simply an issue of plural marriage but of women and children treated as chattels of men who are themselves subsurvient to a self proclaimed 'prophet'

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:11 PM

Alice: I mentioned on the other thread that I had read Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven shortly before this raid. That story ends in 2002, just as Warren was assuming the title. It described his intensity and the divisions in the community that were arising and would continue to arise.

The book was very interesting, but you could feel that the outline didn't address or couldn't portray several nuances. You have done a remarkable job illuminating some of the missing items. I may have missed how it is you know how to present these issues – I doubt that it is just superb googling skills. Whatever it is, it is just this type of insight that keeps me from breaking my addiction to the threads here. Thanks!

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:17 PM

Another video, Anderson Cooper talking with a mother/grandmother who sounds very much like an automaton, with a script: Click.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:20 PM

If you leave that slip running to the end, it then leads to one of Cooper talking with Carolyn Jessup, the one who got out and wrote the book, "Escape."

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:55 PM

update interview about the mothers leaving shelter
probably "ordered" by leader to go back to the ranch

While it's not really clear what approaches the court may take to this rather unusual situation, it does appear that removal of the women from the place where the children are being kept was by court order. Women with children four years of age or less were permitted to stay. All others were given the option by the court of returning to their homes at the compound or of going to an "other place" that the court would provide.

An MSNBC report yesterday was that "some women" chose the "other place" but there was no estimate of numbers or percentages.

The women are, quite expectedly, complaining about being separated from their children; but this separation is quite consistent with established and general legal practice. One does not knowingly allow the persons charged with a crime, or with abetting the crime, to have continuous access to the expected witnesses against them, especially where "witness coercion" is part of the charge.

An ineresting(?) comment from one of the local authorities was that it is proving extremely difficult to identify the individual children due to the children themselves claiming different names each time they are asked. One would suspect that this is a "coached" - if not carefully taught - behaviour that is part of their learned resistance to outsiders(?).

The court has an interesting problem. Handling a few hundred children who are "hostile witnesses" is bad enough - but who'd want a case with 500 lawyers each representing separate clients?

John

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:20 PM

On the Here and Now radio program today, I heard that some of the women chose to go to an undisclosed location of a woman's shelter.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:09 PM

The mothers, or some of them, are demanding to get custody of their children. Given how they have previously been raising those children, should they get it or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 09:41 PM

No comment, Mrz. I'm waiting for more info first.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:11 PM

Two dozen teen boys were moved to foster care.
Video press conference here:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/15/polygamist.ranch/index.html#cnnSTCVideo

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:23 PM

"For Elaine Tyler, the founder of Hope Organization, which works in St. George to salvage the young lives shattered by the FLDS culture, Shapley is a public glimpse of what she sees as the "dirty little secret" of the booming town of St. George — the use of child labor, dubbed "mission work" by the FLDS, to outbid competing construction companies. Tyler worries that the number of "kids from the creek" is reaching critical mass. The expulsions and runaways continue. "They are living someone else's madness," Jensen said."

Article in TIME about the boys in FLDS.

Lost Boys of FLDS

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:57 AM

"They are living someone else's madness,"

so are Catholic school boys.

Pope Ratzinger said that the new church will have fewer pedophiles, calories and trans fats.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 01:31 AM

Hearing or reading about sexual abuse and exploitation is one thing, but documenting it sufficiently for legal action is quite another--and taking the children out of harm's way, and keeping them out of harm's way, is another still.

It is far from clear that the authorities have responded to this problem in a constructive way--Removing kids from their home environment and placing them in Foster Care often actually increases their risk of harm.

>National data on child abuse fatalities show that a child is nearly twice as likely to die of abuse >in foster care as in the general population.

>A study of reported abuse in Baltimore, found the rate of "substantiated" cases of sexual abuse >in foster care more than four times higher than the rate in the general population.[2] Using the >same methodology, an Indiana study found three times more physical abuse and twice the rate >of sexual abuse in foster homes than in the general population. In group homes there was >more than ten times the rate of physical abuse and more than 28 times the rate of sexual >abuse as in the general population[2], in part because so many children in the homes abused >each other.

From this paper from the National Coalition for Child Protection Reform Foster Care is Not Safe

I don't know what the "right" thing to do here is, but I have a hard time imagining that this Waco-style cowboy invasion is going to benefit anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 10:02 AM

Especially when some of those mothers are just children themselves...

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 10:38 AM

If it were "Waco-style" there would have been gunfire or worse and a lot of people would probably be dead. I give the authorities credit for NOT using violence to take the children.

Also, I do not think you can consider the polygamists' settlement to equal the "general population" as noted in the studies you cited. There is nothing "general" or commonplace to most of society in that community when it comes to how children are raised and treated.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 11:25 AM

As Kat noted, this group is very different from the general population.
Missing persons, unmarked graves, trafficking children and adults into Canada and Mexico to hide them or further isolate them and "blood atonement" - murder - are part of the lives of the people in this group.
There is another secret FLDS community located in Mexico. There is the one Kat mentnioned being set up in Colorado, and others.

From ABUSE IN AMERICA PART 3

Points Well Taken, Abuse in America

Austin Chronicle, December 23, 2005,
"Chief among the rumors is the suggestion that, pursuant to Jeffs' wishes, the FLDS may be installing a crematorium on YFZ property to dispose of the bodies of members who have been killed as part of the church's 'blood atonement' doctrine – which, among other things, says that members who commit certain sins – like, say, adultery – must be killed and cremated in order to ensure they'll be accepted into heaven.
Former FLDS member Robert Richter, who left the church in April, last month told the Phoenix New Times that while working for the Colorado City electric utility company (and on the taxpayer time clock) he was actually instructed to work on a series of "secret" projects for the FLDS. Specifically, Richter said he was told to build a high temperature thermostat – one that would register up to 2,700 degrees, says Randy Mankin, editor and publisher of The Eldorado Success, hot enough to destroy DNA material."

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 11:46 AM

So far, authorities are not worried about the one in Colorado...I hope they are right, but I remain skeptical. From a local paper:

required)

By Katharhynn Heidelberg
Daily Press Senior Writer
Published/Last Modified on Wednesday, April 16, 2008 4:13 AM MDT
DELTA COUNTY â€" Officials say they have no cause for concern with property purchased by a reported member of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Delta County Sheriff Fred McKee and his undersheriff visited the Crawford-area property of Neph Barlow Monday, at Barlow’s invitation.

“What we saw was just a single-family residence,â€쳌 Undersheriff Mark Taylor said. “There was no suspicious activity at all. There was nothing for us to be concerned with.â€쳌

Advertisement
Barlow identified himself as an FLDS member, Taylor said.

The FLDS church, which splintered from the mainline Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints over the practice of polygamy (a practice the LDS church disavows), has run afoul of authorities in Texas, Utah and Arizona.

The FLDS occupy the twin cities of Hildale, Utah and Colorado City, Ariz. The sect’s “prophet,â€쳌 Warren Jeffs, was convicted last year in Utah of rape as an accomplice for his role in an arranged marriage between a girl, then 14, and her cousin. He was sentenced to two consecutive prison terms of five years to life.

Jeffs was also indicted in Arizona as an alleged accomplice in incest and sexual conduct with minors and is awaiting trial, the Associated Press reported.

The FLDS also bought property in Eldorado, Texas, which was raided earlier this month after a teenage sect member reported abuse. More than 400 children were removed and authorities continue to investigate.

Another reputed church member, David Allred, purchased property near Mancos â€" a small town between Cortez and Durango â€" in 2003.

According to Taylor, Barlow said he was not in contact with the Texas group and hasn’t spoken to people there for several months. He introduced his wife, children and ranch supervisors to the sheriff and undersheriff, Taylor said.

“They seemed like a normal family. He was very cordial and walked us around the property. We saw nothing to be concerned about.â€쳌

McKee said Monday people appeared to be drawing conclusions about the Barlow property, and most questions had come from the media. He confirmed he was not conducting an investigation. “There’s absolutely no indication there’s any criminal activity,â€쳌 he said.

McKee said Barlow was constructing a privacy fence and a few outbuildings.

Crawford Mayor Jim Crook said that to his knowledge, no one has approached the town government with any concerns about the Barlow property.

“There’s been nothing of the sort,â€쳌 he said.

“The ownership of both of those properties (Barlow’s and Allred’s) might allude to the idea the two could be related in some way, shape or form. ... (But) is it against the law to put up a fence?â€쳌

Crook said he was expressing his personal opinion, rather than speaking for the town.

“I think sometimes they’re making more out of this than it is. If there’s no violation of laws, what do they have to go by?â€쳌

Crook said it was possible people might show up at the Crawford town council’s work session tonight.

“Rumors spread like wildfire. Everyone says we have a polygamist place up here. Who knows if it’s true or not? I don’t like rumors,â€쳌 he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 01:49 PM

Alice - I don't know you personally so I have to ask - do you have some personal issue with this religious group or religious groups that choose to live segregated lives? It is not an accusation mind you. I am only trying to understand your passionate concern regarding this groups practices and beliefs. I agree with you on almost everything.

I have read four books on this particular sect and spoken with 3 former members and I still don't feel I have a handle on wehat they are all about and I'm an anthropologist for heaven's sakes! I say this to illustrate just how little outsiders can really know about them beyond what one reads in the general press and on websites devoted to either abolishing ppolygamy or "rescuing" people from it. Their particular offshoot is not just a return to the original teachings of Joseph Smith as the Press has characterized it - they have an entirely independently devoloped theology that while based on a common source, has branched off in odd ways using logic none of us are privvy to.

My own personal view is that the Consitituion gives us freedom of religion but does not guarantee us total freedom in the actions we might take to practice our religion. For example, Even if smoking MJ and keeping it in a holy vessel was considered a holy sacrament in my faith, I am forbidden by federal law and most state laws from possessing it so that kinda puts the kabosh on my freedom to do that, yes? I mention this particular practice because there are several sects operating in the USA that DO hold the smoking of MJ as sacred.

So likewise, if the State has passed certain minimum standards for the care of children below which is considered criminal neglect, I may not claim my faith permits me to ignore those laws. The state & Federal Gvt. cannot claim to have jurisdiction over "spiritutual unions" of any kind but they can and do enforce certain minimum age requirements for voluntarily engaging in sexual intercourse, below which, a person can be held criminally liable. This is why Mr. Warren Jeffs is cooling his heels in a Jail at present.

I don't think there is any question that the majority of people find child brides and forced successive cosanguinal marriage to be abhorrant. The question isn't if those practises are wrong, the question should be, why hasn't the States of Arizona, Nevada, and Utah done anything about this before now and why did Texas wait until NOW to do something when that compound has been being built for years with the help of local politicians?

The answer is pretty simple and it's MONEY. This group contributes heavily to candidates who are running for offices that will have some authority over their compounds or over issues that effect them. I dare somebody to ask John McCain how much money he has raised from those twin polygamist cities. I dare them. You won't get an answer - people have tried before you and been rebuffed.

I could go on but there's really no sense in doing so. Polygamy is not going to go away inUtah and Arizona prefers to keep its head in the sand presently. Nevada does big business with these sects so they aren't about to slay the goose either. Texas so far is the cheese that stands alone and all eyes are on them and the messed up way they trying to manhandle this issue. let's hope they do a better job than Utah did in the 1950s because if they don't, they'll be dealing with this again in 30 years and in many more parts of their State.

I actually had a childhood playmate die in the first days of the Waco raid - he was inside the compound. It was where he wanted to be and all he wanted to do was live his life there in peace. He had no wives, no kids, just a strong desire to serve God as he saw fit. His death saddened me deeply and I feel it could have been easily avoided had the FBI and ATF not allowed their judgement to be compromised by the murky motivies an ex-member of the sect who had once challeneged Koresh for leadership. The most extreme accusations came from him and fueled the Govt's (specifically Janet reno's) worst fears about the place.

As you can see, I have very strong feelings about protecting an adults right to choose a religion no matter how wacky or self-restricting it may be. I do also believe parents have wide rights in terms of raising their children within their own faiths. However, the State's right to protect the minimum welfare of children supercedes the gaurantee of general religious freedom.

Let's all hope that this action by Texas has at least a few positive outcomes for the children and that the elected officials in Arizona and Utah who have been turning a blind eye to abuses of religious freedom open their eyes up and grow a backbone. They pay all kinds of lipservice to the notion of doing something about it but their support begins and ends with funding for a couple of shelters for women. So long as they subsidize the public schools in those two towns, their town governments and all the healthcare - nothing is gonna change.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 01:59 PM

Dave's Wife,

Some of the links posted here brings us information directly from women and children who have lived there and left there, on their own, at great sacrifice and danger. So...I think coming from the horse's mouth, so to speak, tells us a bit more than just news reports, etc.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 02:46 PM

Kat, I have spoken to 3 female former members of the sect as I noted above. Their stories are horrifying. There is a great documentary about it the name of which is on the tip of my tongue right now but I'll have to come back to it later - wait, it's "Banking on Heaven". if you haven't seen it, it's a must. it addresses alot of what I mentioned above about the issue of money keeping this circus on the road.

With regard to the general press - I object to the manner in which only the salacious aspects of their stories are trotted out in the mass media. if you want find out more about why those women couldn't get help locally or why they were afraid to go to police nearby, you won't hear that because it's not "sexy" news that can be diced for easy consumption. I nearly threw a drinking glass at the TV the last time Larry king did a show on this and at the end of listening to real women who escaped he asked "So.. why don't these women just leave?" it was like, DUH LARRY, your guests did leave. But I digress...

I have not read only the general media. I have read two books by a former male member, 1 book by a former female member, another book by an outsider, a medical journal article by a doctor who treated those Fumarase kids, and to numerous other items to delineate. It's a dirty rotten complex mess of strange bedfelloows to say the least but I still don't believe an yone has really been able to articulate the exact beliefs of the group in detail. Personal anecdotes are compelling but hard to poiece together into a coherent story when they contradict eachother so much.

For example - Elaine Jeffs says they kill deformed newborns but several other ex-female members so no no no that is never done, the fumerase kids are treated with care and concern according to the groupsd belief that that disorder is a test from God to highlight one particularly troubling question. SO are there only 20 cases or are their 30 more up there buried in Babyland that we don't klnow about? Depends which escapee you ask. All I know is it makes me want to know why the Health Departments in those 2 counties hasn't exhumed that graveyard. There is legal precedent for it when the fear is babies are being buried without proper death certificates. Again, I digress...

There are a few smaller publications that have sought to highlight the experiences of individual women but that is not the entire story or even the majortiy aspect of the problem these communities have created for their residents or the citeznes of the States where they choose to reside. There are also a number of Utah publications that have a vested interest in portraying the FDLS as being the furthest thing from the LDS as possible and you see some of the more horrifying and contradictory details in their articles.

My point is that if all the public chooses to focus on is the sexual details, nothing will ever be done because frankly, in my view, the sexual abuse and exploitation of women makes for good shock value but no action. There are already laws on the books that in theory protect against this. We should be asking WHY those laws are ignored and who has a financial stake in seeing to it that the FLDS continues business as usual and it IS a business - a miminum guess is it's a 400 Million dollar business just that we know of.

Sadly, all I ever see is earnest looking guys such as Anderson Cooper shaking his pretty head and praising escapees as brave but no coverage of the poltical payoffs that go all the way up the ladder to senators and even a current presidential candidiate. Anderson should perhaps poke his elegant nose into that rats nest and see what he finds. I'd watch.

It's too easy to get outraged about statutory rape, child brides and polygamy. People get sufficiently outraged about to the degree of a raid or two once every generation and a half but little if anything changes. let's hope this time is different. I'm praying that it is and I'm writing some letters as well to State Attorney generals, Congresspeople and Senators. I don't expect John McCain to write me back - he didn't the last time I sent him a letter on this subject two years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 02:54 PM

Thank you, DW, for the clarification. I agree with you, there is MUCH more than we ever see on any news programs. One of the video excerpts in this thread was from something about Banking on Heaven. (It was a ways back so I don't remember exactly which one, etc.)

I also agree, there are many, many questions which need to be asked and I, for one, don't see any real journalists getting into it, if there are any of those left...I have my doubts.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:14 PM

Your welcome but thanks for prodding me to elaborate. My second post is a lot better representation of my particular anger and concern.

I have had an interest in New Religious Movements since my undergrad days when i spent a summer excavating a Shaker settlement. I later sang in an American Opera about Mother Ann, the first part of which was performed in the famed Shaker Round barn. That same professor wrote an Opera about Brigham Young called Deseret that aired on NBC in the 1960s and an opera about Nantucket Quakers called The Pariahs about the the true story of the sinking of the Whaleship Essex.

I spent part of my childhood in a Quaker town that was the stie of the famous Quaker Church crisis called The Hicksite Rebellion that led to a huge rift. They were all related to the Nantucket Quakers in the opera! Many of my childhood friends were from the family of that doomed cabin boy who is eaten according to the "law of the sea" and whose heart was tossed overboard because the men couldn't bear to eat it. Isn't life ODD?

There is nothing inherently wrong with people wanting to seek God in new ways or people wanting to build communities that conform to their ideals of a godly society. if there were, and if that wrongness led to prohibition of such things, there'd have never been a Massachuesstes Bay Colony or even a USA for that matter.

However, we have all seen historic examples of political power being concentrated in the hands of religious leaders with near total authority over their flock and it has led to oh, let's say for example...The Salem Witch trials (even though there were more complex issues that fomented them) or more recently...The killing of Alan Berg by White Supremacists.


The same people (off this board mind you) who are getting all nice and outraged about the FLDS sexual issues are the same folks that defend prayer in schools, the ten Commandments in court houses and religious litmus tests for their president. They should be careful what they wish for, they might get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 05:05 PM

I personally know a girl who was raped in a cult at the age of 3 by her stepfather. The stepfather also molested her 8 year old brother. The mother, who was Austrian and came to Montana to be a part of this cult, was told by the guru to marry the man. I helped the mother and her children escape that cult, Church Universal and Triumphant (CUT) led by Elizabeth Clare Prophet, now based near Yellowstone Park. I learned as much as I could from that point on about thought reform, cults, etc., in order to understand this social phenomenon.

I called academic researchers around the country and talked to them about this, I met other former members of various cults, I read everything I could find. That was in the early 90's. I am particularly concerned about what a totalistic group does to the children, but adults who have their minds twisted by leaders who are motivated by power and deception are also victims.

I agree about your statement, Dave's wife, be careful what you wish for, including an Office of Faith Based Initiatives. Whose faith teaching what, and where does the money go to these faith based groups?

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 05:19 PM

Here is the link again to Banking on Heaven.
http://www.bankingonheaven.com/
On one of the many you tube links I've posted to this thread, there is a man recording phone conversations in his investigation of FLDS, trafficking to Canada, child brides, unmarked graves, etc. One of those links also is about his demand from Senator Mcain from Arizona, where Colorado City is located, to respond to him about FLDS.

Just go to You Tube and search "FLDS fincenMIB McCain".

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 06:13 PM

"We should be asking WHY those laws are ignored and who has a financial stake in seeing to it that the FLDS continues business as usual and it IS a business - a miminum guess is it's a 400 Million dollar business just that we know of."

Yes!

I know that in Canada, the local population turns a "blind eye" to polygamous sects because they are located in small towns that are dependent on the money they generate. Not only do they purchase goods but they usually operate businesses that are crucial to economic stability.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:11 PM

Straight from the leader's mouth, this is Warren Jeffs speaking to young girls about to be married soon.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-AK2Mg8fjU

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:17 PM

Alice, do any of those videos have audio? I ask because I clicked on three of them and they were all silent with pretty much the same slides of photos. I'd like to know more of what they have to say about McCain, but there's not much, unless I am missing some audio? I checked my system and the audio is working for other youtube videos.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:23 PM

Some don't have sound.. just showing John McCain's letter.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:51 PM

Me, I've heard and seen enough to know I'm agin it all.
No, really, that may sound silly, but I have. I'm just agin it.

I can't condone what is basically baby raping, mind control, totalitarian dictatorship, abuse and sexism in the name of religion and a 'kind' God. Jesus has NO part in this, and I'm not even a Christian. The Jesus that real Christians talk about is NOT a part of this.

Warren Jeffs is currently in prison, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't still have control of his 'Family'. I'd bet a lot of money that he does still have control.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 10:57 PM

From crimelibrary.com,
"Carolyn Jessop, who in 2003 also escaped an arranged marriage with her eight children in tow, said that members of the FLDS were "culturally adapted to the abuse" they suffered, Owens-Liston reported. She was further quoted by Bramham as saying that the people who grow up in the FLDS culture "know nothing else" because they "never lived a normal life."
Criminal Mind, Warren Jeffs

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 09:03 AM

The Jesus that real Christians talk about is a myth, don't forget.

Subject: BS: Texas Polygamy situation
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 02:04 PM

Transferred from Closed Thread

I think it is Texas anyway. Where they brought out over 16 young children and teens, and perhaps 50 mothers or so.

What I don't get, seeing as they don't have facilities to house them etc...why they didn't just remove the 3 men who fathered these children or ran the place, leave the women and children in place, bring in social workers, medical people and law enforcement, as women were in cahoots...but basically leave the children there....mg

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 03:45 PM

"State District Judge Barbara Walther called a recess 40 minutes after the hearing began in what could be the nation's largest child custody case. She wanted to allow the 350 lawyers spread out in two buildings to read the evidence and decide whether to object en masse or make individual objections."

I'm sure things will be straightened out in no time at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 05:12 PM

I agree with Mary, it would have been a lot easier to evict the men. Let them cool their heels in jail without bail.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 05:38 PM

Follow the procedings as they develop at the Courthouse. Continually updated reports (the latest at the top) from the San Angelo Standard Times weebsite, gosanangelo.com.

Live from the courthouse updates

The investigators are having a hard time since they have no complainant who has come forward. 'Sarah' remains unknown. The hearing (it is not a trial) will proceed very slowly unless the judge terminates it for some reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 06:51 PM

...it would have been a lot easier to evict the men.

It's not clear that anyone knows how many men would be involved, or even how many live at the "community." The only article I've seen that mentions "the men" was:

14 April 2008 [second page, almost at the end] states "A church lawyer, Rod Parker, said the 60 or so men remaining on the 1,700-acre ranch ... ."

Were there more men there, who've gone elsewhere to escape being charged? Or are the ones remaining there the only ones who lived in the community?

To remove the men, it likely would be necessary to find valid charges against specific ones of them, and probably to "make arrests." While the expectation is that there "might be charges" an arrest must usually be based on a fairly specific charge and reasonably specific individual identification of a "perp" suspect.

To remove the children required only "reasonable cause" to believe the children might be "in danger."

One does, perhaps, wonder how "60 or so men" have managed to father 416 children ... . Although 7 kids in a family is not too unusual in some cultures, 7 kids (average) in every family in a community seems a bit ... ? ... ? ... unusual(?).

And the 139 women who "voluntarily left with the children" may or may not be all, or even most of, the female parents. One report said "about 15" mothers were away from the compound at the time of the raid; but it's unclear whether only some of the mothers who were there chose to accompany the kids.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 07:26 PM

From statements in court so far, relationships are unclear, and, has been suggested, DNA may be needed to establish parent-child relationships.
Court has recessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 07:54 PM

You make me laugh, John--"To remove the children required only "reasonable cause" to believe the children might be "in danger.""

Obviously, you've never been to court--there is no such thing as "only"--nothing is easy-- even if there is "reasonable cause" to remove them from the home, you've still got to present something to the judge, and the best evidence and the most convincing testimony can fall apart, for one reason or another.

I am slightly horrified that there is no complainant--with all the links that Alice and such have posted, one presumes that there are people out there who know enough about what happens in the colony to give investigators a solid foundation for legal action--failing that, you have a debacle on your hands--and, even with that, with 350 lawyers, you have a debacle anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 09:00 PM

With all due respect, Sorcha, I hope that no one is going around saying that babies are/were being raped there. Certainly I do not want children being forced into a marriage or any other sexual relationshiop and ceertainly 14 and 15 year old girls are still in the physical, emotional and mental formative stages stages of their lives.

But they are are not babies. That reality is a totally different thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 10:39 PM

From an Eldorado newspaper site, http://www.myeldorado.net/YFZ%20Pages/YFZ040305.html

Audio clips of preaching of "prophet" Warren Jeffs and his father Rulon.

Well... here is something music related!
"
Strangely, the audio clips reveals Jeffs instructing a group of teachers on the history of rock and roll music. In it Jeffs claims the 60's rock group The Beatles were trained to perform by an unnamed homosexual black man who was a drug user. Jeffs said that before they received the training the British singers were "pingy-pangy unnoticed useless people nobody would hire." However, after learning the black beat, the group became world famous and all other music has followed that pattern, Jeffs said.

Jeffs then cautioned his audience that when they listen to rock music, they are "enjoying the spirit of the black race," an activity he says will "rot the soul and lead the person to immorality, to corruption, to forget their prayers, to forget God. Thus the whole world has partaken of the spirit of the Negro race."

At one point Rulon Jeffs says, "The call of God Almighty is on me to establish the holy united order in Zion and that's what I'm about to do...God being my helper....I am going forward and continuing building the storehouse and living the holy united order and God is going to handle anyone who fights against it."

Following another long pause the senior Jeffs can be heard asking someone nearby, "Do we have the lawyers?"

To which a second voice, believed to be Warren Jeffs replies. "Yes we do."

That is followed by a short pause and then Rulon Jeffs proclaiming, "We have the lawyers!...and God will fight our battles....we will continue celestial law and God will fight our battles."

Still another long pause is ended when Rulon Jeffs asks the crowd, "Are you worried about what the State of Utah and the State of Arizona are going to do?"

That draws a resounding, "No!" from the congregation.

"Okay, we'll go on," the elder Jeffs says.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 11:00 PM

I don't know how long this notice will stay online, but here is the page in the local Eldorado paper of the Legal Notice regarding the FLDS children.
Many of the children's names are listed.
Here is the link and the first few paragraphs. The list of names is too long to paste in here.
http://www.myeldorado.net/Pages/LegalNotices.html
CITATION BY PUBLICATION/POSTING

TO ALL UNKNOWN PARENTS, AND ANY PERSON CLAIMING TO BE A PARENT OF, ANY ONE OR MORE OF THE CHILDREN REMOVED FROM THE YFZ RANCH, ELDORADO, SCHLEICHER COUNTY, TEXAS, BETWEEN APRIL 4, 2008, AND MIDNIGHT ON APRIL 7, 2008, AND TO ALL WHOM IT MAY CONCERN, RESPONDENT(S):

THE STATE OF TEXAS

NOTICE TO RESPONDENT(S):

"You have been sued. You may employ an attorney. If you or your attorney do not file a written answer with the clerk who issued this citation by 10:00 a.m. on the Monday next following the expiration of twenty (20) days after you were served this citation and petition, a default judgment may be taken against you.

"YOU ARE HEREBY COMMANDED to appear and answer before the Honorable 51st Judicial District Court, Eldorado, Schleicher County, Texas, at the Courthouse in Eldorado, Schleicher County, Texas, at or before 10:00 a.m. on the Monday next after the expiration of twenty (20) days from the date of service of this citation, then and there to answer the Original Petitions of the TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF FAMILY AND PROTECTIVE SERVICES, Petitioner, filed in said Court.

"The petitions of the TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF FAMILY AND PROTECTIVE SERVICES, Petitioner, were filed in the 51st Judicial District Court of Schleicher County, Texas, on April 7, 2008, and April 8, 2008, against the various Respondents named in the Petitions, as well as others not specifically named therein. The suits are numbered 2779 through 2903, and are entitled as follows:
2779 IN THE INTEREST OF BABY GIRL JESSOP #26600675, A CHILD
.... (listing of children)...

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 11:49 PM

Utah and Arizona turned a blind eye.
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=4677685&affil=kwyb

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 12:54 AM

ABC news Nightline is reporting tonight that an African American woman in Colorado has been arrested amid rumors of the "Sarah" phone calls being a hoax.

"Texas Rangers participated in the arrest of a Colorado woman who allegedly pretended to be a girl locked in a basement. The Rangers were in the state as part of their investigation into the Texas polygamy custody battle, local police told ABC News."

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 01:06 AM

Thanks for the links, Alice.

John, it doesn't take many men, where there are many women. In the last video link which Alice listed, the young woman recounts how her father had nineteen wives and seventy-five children. She also said there was never a time when she encountered him that he remembered her name. He always had to ask her who she was and which wife was her mother. They had 18 bedrooms with 40 people in one house.

I disagree about leaving the children there. I think they would be too intimidated to open up being surrounded by the trappings of abuse which most of them have known as their only world since birth. I've always heard you have to remove someone from a cult in order to help them get out of that mindset.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 01:20 AM

M Ted -

Don't laugh too hard.

Of course I was speaking only of the "justification" needed for a law enforcement officer to execute the "taking" of a person.

The Sheriff's department believed they had reasonable cause to believe the children were at risk. The court apparently believed that their concern showed sufficient cause to issue a warrent from the court that permitted the authorities to take the children into custody.

They have not, as yet, found cause to arrest any of the adults, since to arrest an adult does require a more specific "evidence" that a specific crime has been committed by the specific person taken into custody.

There is no assurance that the children will remain in custody, since the court has to make decisions on that; but that was not part of the statement to which I responded.

LEGALLY, the state can take your children on very vague and general evidence. It's done fairly routinely in lots of places for a variety of reasons, some of which are, sometimes, pretty flimsy ones. That's a separate question from whether they can keep your children.

LEGALLY, the state has very little way of taking an adult into custody without much more compelling, and much more specific, evidence.

That's just the way it works.

In either case, keeping them - adults or children - in custody is the quagmire to which you refer, at least as I read your hilarious sneer - but that wasn't part of the statement in question, or part of my response.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 11:20 AM

Description by ex FLDS bride, water torture of babies by the FLDS father. Called "breaking" to instill fear of the father. How abuse of brides and children instilled fear and absolute obedience.
video

water torture

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 11:26 AM

I hope they can prove that and fry the bastard. And, I am not really for the death penalty, BUT I feel an exception can be made.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 11:30 AM

pregnant 13 year olds, incest, pedophilia,,,lots of claims but no evidence that I have seen.

lots of claims but lest we forget, these things can happen with or without a cult mafia family religion at its core.





I sure am glad I saw every episode of Big Love on HBO.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 11:31 AM

Kat, it made me sick to my stomach to hear her describe the father doing this to the babies, spank hard to cry and then hold the face under running water, then repeat until the baby is exhausted.
Criminal, sadistic torturer. I'm sure hearing that would make any sane person react with disgust and anger.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 11:37 AM

Donuel, pregnant minors, 16 year old already given birth to four children, according to Texas law, that is proof that someone has raped those girls, as at that age, they cannot give consent.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 12:06 PM

Thanks, Alice, I agree. Here's some of the latest:

Child welfare investigator Angie Voss testified that at least five girls who are younger than 18 are pregnant or have children. Voss said some of the women identified as adults with children may be juveniles, or may have had children when they were younger than 18.

Read more HERE

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 12:13 PM

Voss then began laying out the state's case for keeping the children in custody.

She said many of the girls told CPS caseworkers that no age is too young to marry and that it is their mission to have as many children as possible.

"There was a mind-set that when the prophet came and told them it was time get married, that was what they were going to do no matter what the age," Voss said.

Many of the girls were eager to begin having children and were thrilled to be living at the 1,691-acre ranch four miles north of Eldorado, she said.

"They said it was an honor to be there. They said, 'This is Zion,'" Voss said.

She has determined that girls as young as 13 have children, Voss said. One 14-year-old and a number of 15-year-olds are pregnant, she testified.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 01:32 PM

Marriageable age-
Ideas and statutes have changed radically since about 1950. The common law age is 12.

States vary; in New Hampshire, females 13 and males 14, with parental consent. California has no limits on marriageable age if parental consent is given (but the common law age of 12 holds).
Many states had the old common law statute, those that have changed have a statutory date before which the old law applies and the marriages are valid. Apparently the common law still holds in many states if there is parental and /or court consent; Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Connecticut, etc. etc. all list exceptions. In Florida exception is permitted if pregnancy occurs.

Texas has an exception in the statute specifying age 16- "Below age of consent parties need parental consent and permission of judge, no younger than 14 for males and 13 for females" I think. however, that this exception was made to take care of those adventurous and sexually precocious kids whose behind the barn activities have led to pregnancy.
The common law is still on the books in Texas and several other states; I don't know how and when it is still applicable.

From Cornell Univ. website-
Marriage laws

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 02:10 PM

Although the age of consent
is governed by statute marriage below this age is possible under certain circumstances

for example in NYC
'If either prospective bride or groom is under the age of sixteen years, in addition to parental consent, the written approval of a judge of the Supreme Court or Family Court is needed.
If you are less than 18 years of age be prepared to show proof of your date of birth. Such proof of date of birth may be one of the following: original or certified copy of birth certificate, baptismal record, passport, driver's license, naturalization record, or court records.

In all instances where either prospective bride or groom is under eighteen both parents must be present with valid identification at the time of application for the marriage license and at the marriage ceremony if the ceremony is performed in our offices. If one parent is deceased, the surviving parent must appear and a death certificate for the deceased parent must be produced. If both parents are deceased, the legal guardian must appear instead. A person under the age of fourteen cannot be married.'

HOWEVER!

......keep in mind these CHILDREN were NOT married, they did not have the legal protection of marriage, they were "spiritually married" in other words, subjected to statutory rape, turned into breeding machines, and kept as possessions with NONE of the legal right to the men's property that a legal wife would have.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 03:56 PM

Fascinating discussion here. Alice, I'm impressed at the amount of research you have done on this subject, and thanks for providing the links.

I am always perplexed when, presented with obvious and outrageous abuses by a group like this, people will defend the activity by equating it with abuses under the Catholic Church etc. That approach is the sliding scale of morality approach which says that no one can criticize anything unless they agree to address every other form of abuse simultaneously. The attempt is to dilute and divert the discussion. The other aspect of that approach is that no one can criticize a practice without taking into consideration the entire environment in which that practice takes place..."how can you criticize Mormon polygamist unless you are one" would be the logical extrapolation. No, I believe there is such a thing as fundamental right and wrong...a grown man who coerces a child of 12 years into sex deserves our condemnation, and his act is beyond justification.

I do business in Utah and have for some time, and I find Mormons and their beliefs fascinating. Most of my knowledge of this topic comes from people in Utah who are friends or business acquaintances, and so most of it is anecdotal. I read Under the Banner of Heaven and gained some depth about the historical roots of Mormonism and of its polygamist aspect. I sat in Squatter's Pub and drank Polygamy Porter and Provo Girl Pilsner, and saw that most Utahns view the polygamy/fundamentalist issue with a mixture of curiosity, embarrassment, and dark humor. I don't have negative feelings about the LDS Church in general, and find its members honest and friendly people who are more than willing to discuss its stickier aspects. I did want to make a few observations that may be pertinent to this discussion:

Geneology. I have visited the Geneology Center in Salt Lake City, and found a wealth of information there concerning my own ancestory. I don't believe there's anything sinister about the Mormon obsession with ancestry. I believe the information is gathered primarily as an aspect of the Mormon fever for conversion. Baptism of the Dead is an essential tenet of Mormon Temple practice, a ceremony wherein LDS members in good standing pass through a baptism ceremony on behalf of your Great-Great Grandfather to save his soul as a Mormon. You may not like this thought, but unless the LDS is right and they are in fact saving his soul, what harm is done?

Blood atonement. As Alice mentioned, Blood Atonement is historically an accepted belief in the LDS Church. Some sins cannot be forgiven except through spilling the blood of the sinner. This flies in the face of the notion of forgiveness through the sacrifice of Jesus, and is thus a pretty disturbing notion to most Christian sects.

Joseph Smith and Polygamy. Polygamy was never mentioned in the Book of Mormon, but was a later revelation to Joseph Smith. Smith was a charismatic, athletic, handsome guy, and was periodically accused of infidelity by those who knew him, including a man and wife who boarded Smith for some time and became suspicious that he was sleeping with their daughter, according to Jon Krakauer in Banner. At this time he was married to Abigail. It was also at this time that Smith received a revelation from God telling him that a righteous man like him should have more than one wife. God was specific enough in this revelation to mention that Abigail might have a problem with the concept, but that Smith should emphasize to her that it was "God's Will". Abigail did in fact have a problem with it, and later started her own offshoot of the LDS which rejected polygamy. Polygamy was practiced commonly in Utah and the surrounding areas until the LDS abandoned the practice as a requirement for entering statehood, when it was outlawed by the LDS elders, when it went "underground".

Bleeding the Beast. The Beast is the government of the United States, long perceived by the LDS as the enemy of the Church. As such, taking money from said enemy, or "bleeding" it, was not only an acceptable but desirable activity. As the LDS has become more mainstream, this practice has devolved mainly to the FLDS, and is accomplished in many ways. Many FLDS homes are in a constant state of construction or expansion, since significant tax reduction can be gained on a house in this condition. Wives and children often collect unemployment and social services benefits. Much of the FLDS lifestyle is in fact financed through Bleeding the Beast.

The process and practice by which polygamy can take place without the risk of arrest is really pretty simple. John marries Rebecca, taking into his house Rebecca's 9 year old sister Sarah. When Sarah reaches the age of consent, John divorces Rebecca and marries Sarah. This chain can continue until John has what his pastor decides is a full contingent of wives, but "officially" he'll only have one.

The Lost Boys. On a recent visit to St George, I had a conversation with Matthew, my bartender at the Hilton. Turns out he was exiled from Hildale several years ago, and forced to make due in the world with no support or aid from his family, his Father, or the FLDS. He is just one of many Lost Boys I've encountered throughout the state of Utah. Deemed less holy by Jeffs or his predecessors, and in a system where the ratio of women to men must be obviously much higher, these males are often sent to the larger cities to be dumped into the system of the Beast.

I look forward to following the progress of the discussion here, and welcome any corrections or amendments to my statements. I am surprised that no Mormons have commented as of yet, or am I missing something?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 05:15 PM

Don, how much MORE proof do you need? Have you not looked at any of the links?

Ebbie--how old do you consider to be not a 'baby'? I admit I WAS using the term rather loosely....but a 13 year old to me is still a 'baby' in many ways, and she SURE isn't mature enough to HAVE a baby!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 05:18 PM

From the Associated Press article (linked to by Kat, I think) this ending statement about the girl whose calls started the investigation:

"The girl has yet to be identified, though Voss said a girl matching her description was seen by other girls in the ranch garden four days before the raid began."

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 05:19 PM

Lonesome EJ, a good contribution. A few comments.

Genealogy- The Club for people interested in tracing their ancestors meets at the LDS Stake House here in Calgary, as they do in many cities. Excellent facilities, basic library, internet help and no one there pushes their beliefs.
Bleeding the Beast- this is practiced by many wherever taxes on completed renovations become onerous. When I first spent time in rural B. C., I was puzzled by the number of unfinished houses- insulated but lacking siding and finish, etc. I found that it was due to the way tax was assessed. The practice was by no means restricted to Mormons.

Polygamy per se is not illegal in Canada; since same-sex marriage was enacted into law in 2005, old restrictions have been ignored, although they are still in the statute books.
Muslims are not forbidden polygamous marriage in Muslim countries, and seem to be practicing it in some cities in Canada (and probably in the United States), although nothing is said about it.

I have relatives who were raised as Mormons in Utah and Colorado, but they are 'jack' or non-practicing. One is active in Mormon charity, although he does love his Scotch, and drinks coffee by the gallon.
I encountered the no alcohol restriction among LDS friends in high school; they had no hang-ups about partying with those of us who drank and smoked; probably some of us are alive today because they had the job of driving. Just as wild as the rest of us, but not needing liquor.

The 'Lost Boys' are similar to the young people here in Alberta who left the Hutterian (anabaptist) colonies and can no longer meet with parents and other colony members, cast out to do the best they can on the 'outside.' They are helped by those who had gone before and managed to find jobs.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 05:49 PM

Beliefs of the FDLS were discussed by an expert in court today.
FLDS members believe they have a sacred responsibility to help all the children of God come down from their state of "pre-mortality" so that they can have the chance to go to heaven. They believe that having children is their sacred calling.
The expert said the 20,000 FLDS members will probably always recognize a single prophet, but how much they adhere to the prophet's teachings depends (on personal inclinations).

The expert said Jeffs has recommended younger girls than his predecessors did for marriage. Apparently this is as young as 13.
Most members still regard Jeffs as head, although he is in jail.

Some of the children do have Jeffs as father. One of the lawyers who spoke today has a child fathered by him as a client.

Other testimony today-
Most fathers have never seen the mothers naked, as they wear long-john type garments during intercourse.
Fewer teenage boys in the Colony because they go outside to work and raise money for the group.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: meself
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 06:04 PM

"Polygamy per se is not illegal in Canada; since same-sex marriage was enacted into law in 2005, old restrictions have been ignored, although they are still in the statute books."

Not sure where you get this. The polygamy practised in Bountiful seems to have been ignored by legal authorities long before 2005, and I imagine other instances of polygamy were as well. However, this does not make polygamy legal, as your statement implies.

This is the first I've heard of the same-sex marriage legislation leading to the ignoring of 'old restrictions' .... Elaboration?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 06:13 PM

One legal expert I heard in the past two weeks on NPR, I think it was, seemed to say the way they take a first wife, then live with other "wives" to whom they've only been married by their church, doesn't really constitute polygamy because the subsequent "marriages" are not recognised by state or federal law, i.e. they don't go get a marriage license for each wife and try to be "officially" married to more than one woman. So the multiple wives thing is something recognised only by their church. At least that's what I understood him to say about polygamy.

LeeJ, last I knew Mudcat only had one Mormon member and he never has posted very often. Of course there might be others, but maybe this whole thing is too embarrassing for them?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 08:04 PM

The legality of polygamy in Canada has been discussed in reports for a couple of years at least. An article in the Vancouver Sun today about legalizing the practice repeats what has been in the Press for some time.
Legal Experts Recommend Canada Legalize Polygamy

The article is not new, byline Melissa Leong, taken from The National Post, Jan 13, 2006.

Polygamy has been practiced for 60 years at Bountiful, B. C., and elsewhere in western Canada, without interference from the Province.

Lawyers at Queens Univ. argue that a challenge to Section 293 of the Criminal Code barring polygamy might be successful. The study was commissioned by the Department of Justice. In any case, no government group in Canada seems ready to enforce any statute barring polygamy. Unless someone marries two or more women under the legal statutes, there is no way to enforce a bigamy prosecution. 'Marriages' according to some church rule are not recognized, thus are not polygamous under the law.
Only with regard to immigration and refugees is Section 293 of the Criminal Code used.
The legal experts suggest that Canadian laws be changed to provide the women in polygamous relationships with spousal support and inheritance rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 08:07 PM

My link is wrong, but a search of the Vancouver Sun for April 18 should bring it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 09:06 PM

Here is a link that gives more detail about the FLDS church and its history, including how Warren Jeffs took total control, welfare fraud, etc.


http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/ChartLinks/FLDSChurch.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 09:30 PM

From the web site I just linked to:

        
"Questions regarding the described 1886 ordinations

Of all of the assertions made by Lorin Woolley in the 1920, none is more important that his descriptions of ordinations that allegedly occurred on September 27, 1886. According to Lorin's 1929 account, he and four other men then received lofty authority to continue plural marriage:[1]

          He [John Taylor] called five of us together: Samuel Bateman, Charles H. Wilkins [Wilcken], George Q. Cannon, John W. Woolley, and myself. He then set us apart[1] and place us under covenant that while we lived we would see to it that no year passed by without children being born in the principle of plural marriage. We were given authority to ordain others if necessary to carry this work on, they in turn to be given authority to ordain others when necessary, under the direction of the worthy senior (by ordination), so that there should be no cessation in the work..."

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:00 PM

Treat Girls As SNAKES, polygamous sermon by Rulon Jeffs

Treat Girls As SNAKES

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:45 PM

Polygamy is not bigamy. Bigamy is the LEGAL word for attempting to marry under LAW multiple wives and is illegal in 'most' places. Polygamy is what the FLDS (and others pracatice). The FLDS do NOT practice 'bigamy' because they are LEGALLY married to only one woman. The First One. As I understand it, the subsequent 'divorce' of the First Wife (and then serially the others) isn't practiced in the FLDS because they belive that their Celestial Law (requiring polygamy) is of a higher order than the legal law of the State or the Federal Government.

The subsequent 'wives' are ONLY married in the church, NOT the legal court of law, so according to the Law of the State in which they were 'married' they are NOT married at all.

It will be interesting to see how the 'Sarah' and the African American woman making the initial phone call plays out.

LEJ, thanks for your comments!

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 11:24 PM

The Judge decided the children will stay in state custody and DNA tests of all the children will be done to determine who their parents are.


judge's decision

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 12:15 AM

B.C. teachers have been protesting and calling for an investigation of Bountiful, a polygamist sect in B.C. Although the sexual abuse of girls is often the topic that grabs everyone's attention, it is only part of the problem.

Bountiful's school receives provincial funding but does not adhere to the provincial curriculum and has very high drop out rates. The girls study home economics almost exclusively and the day begins with taped lectures (often from Jeffs) that are racist and homophobic. The Book of Mormon is an elective but they have petitioned the govt. (what nerve!) to allow them to make it their core curriculum. As has been mentioned before, the boys are often turned out into the world with no support and very few skills for coping with the outside world (this is after using them for free labour).

Teachers (as advocates of children) have signed petitions and have been protesting this cult for years! Nothing has been done.

The latest news is that Canada may legalize polygamy. It is thought that at least then, the spiritual wives will be entitled to inheritance and/or alimony if need be.

I don't think this is a very enlightened solution to the problem. Seems to me that the rights of the children should be first and those rights include publically funded schooling that does not teach children to hate and fear the outside world.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 06:09 PM

Alice, the 'treat girls like snakes' admonition is of a piece with the advice he was giving. As such, I don't think it's that bizarre.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 06:54 PM

His sermon was that boys should avoid girls and girls avoid boys like they are snakes, because the prophet WOULD CHOOSE FOR YOU who you would marry, and you have no choice. That the apple given to you (assigned spouse) is godly and to steal an apple (choose on your own who you want) is against the prophet's rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 08:39 PM

Right.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 11:17 PM

Why is this still being referred to as the Polygamy thingie, when the fact that the wives were multiple is so far off the radar compared to who the wives were in the first place, being children?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 01:48 PM

Schooling at FCJC Eldorado ranch-
Not known, according to the newspaper. "With limits to the laws, no state oversight existed for the education provided to the hundreds of children living until early this month at the YFZ Ranch......"
"In Texas, private schools need not report their curiculum to the state, nor do individual families of co-ops that home-school children, private school representatives said."

San Angelo daily, Apr. 21: www.gosanangelo.com

Volunteers from the San Angelo school district are providing some half-day teaching to the kids, mostly arts and physical education, primarily to give them something to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 02:06 PM

And the rest of the nation gets its textbooks based on what Texas uses/recommends, last I heard.

Unbelievable, Q, thanks for posting that.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 05:40 PM

Does Texas actually pay for private schooling?

In B.C., private schools (including Bountiful) receive money from the govt.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 05:50 PM

California and other states also have textbook recommendations. Texas, as a large population state, is sort of a 'textbook loss leader;' If large quantities are printed they tend to be cheaper and all states look for bargains. California also falls into this group.

The Texas State Board of Education actually does a fairly good job, since possible selections are reviewed by independent review panels. The following article from the Dallas Morning News tells of the amazing numbers of errors found by the reviewers in math and other textbooks. These errors must be corrected by the publisher before the book is accepted- the book companies are fined for errors that get into the accepted editions.

A problem with textbooks from Texas and some other states is that Legislators get into the act, and have voted in requirements that dictate how scientific theories are presented- notably in life sciences and the teaching of evolution, etc.,- but Georgia, Iowa, Tennessee (second time around- remember Scopes trial?) and several other states also have meddling legislators who demand creationism be taught along with evolution, or don't permit birth control instruction, etc.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/education/stories/111607dntextbooks.268c6c7.html

There are several articles on the internet about legislative and parent meddling; I won't bother to link them.
----------------------------------------------------

I will ask an involved teacher about the private or home schooling requirements in British Columbia tonight; I don't understand the provincial regulations as set out in the website.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 05:54 PM

dianavan- 'does Texas actually pay for private schooling?'- good question, I don't know what the limits are.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 05:57 PM

All quiet in the Courthouse for a while, until the DNA tests are completed and relationships determined. But since many of the men, especially, may be elsewhere, how complete this will be?--

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 08:55 PM

Here is a site where you can follow news articles about this subject.

RELIGION AND CHILD ABUSE NEWS

Click Here

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 09:40 PM

Another FLDS site is Pringle, South Dakota.
An excommunicated member of FLDS said this about Pringle and the YFZ Ranch.
From an article in the Rapid City, SD news,
--
"Wyler, a former longtime member of the FLDS, was ex-communicated in 2004 by FLDS prophet Warren Jeffs, who was convicted last year in Utah of rape as an accessory. Jeffs is in jail in Arizona facing similar charges there.

Wyler said FLDS members had to prove themselves worthy of going to the Yearning For Zion compound at Eldorado by first living at other compounds such as the Pringle community.

"Some of those compounds were stepping stones to get to Texas," Wyler said in a phone interview this week.

Land for the Pringle compound was purchased in 2003 by the same man who handled the purchase of the Texas property, according to The Success newspaper of Eldorado.

Wyler said he also believes that William E. Jessop, whom Jeffs temporarily named to replace him as prophet of the FLDS, also is living at Pringle.....Wyler said he was at a meeting of FLDS leaders in the '90s at which Jeffs' father, Rulon Jeffs, then the church leader, urged the church to take a proposed deal from the state to abandon under-age marriages in exchange for amnesty for any past crimes involving under-age marriages.

Warren Jeffs, who soon took control of the sect, even before his father died, rejected the deal and defiantly went on a spree of performing under-age marriages, Wyler said.

Wyler said rape follows naturally in some cases where girls as young as 13 or 14 are married to older men. "I know of cases in this town where underage girls were married to a guy and she didn't want to do anything and he forced himself on her. It's not always that way. But that's going to happen anyplace you have underage marriages," said Wyler.

Wyler said that while he was in the church, he was bothered most by the underage marriages and, even worse, underage marriages by men to their stepdaughters.

Wyler said there are occasions when an FLDS man marries a woman who already has small children, raises them up to age 13 or 14 and then marries them. "They grow up calling this man dad and then have to have sex with him," Wyler said.

Wyler said he never was told why he was excommunicated from the church, but he doesn't regret it. "It was the best thing that ever happened to me."

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 12:43 AM

British Columbia has set curricula for home schooling and major examinations are not graded by the home schooler, but by the education department. Home schooling can be carried on through grade 11, but grade 12 for the high school diploma must be taken at an accredited school. Mennonites and similar groups apparently quit after the equivalent of grade nine, much like Mennonites and Hutterites in Alberta.

The colony at Bountiful, however, does seem to be outside of any system, according to the retired B. C. teacher I talked with. One problem is that the children are 'here today and gone tomorrow' so there is no continuity to the limited home schooling that they do receive. In other words, no more real control than there is in Texas.
We wonder how the transfer of Bountiful children to Texas was effected. Unless parents can prove that the children are theirs, it is difficult to take children across the border. This means that some records must exist to prove the relationship.

Will Canadian-born children found at Eldorado eventually be deported to Canada? A complex kettle of fish.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 01:17 AM

Polygamy may prove to be more difficult to prosecute than misuse of school funding.

"As one of 350 independent schools in B.C., Bountiful receives a funding allotment from the provincial government of about $550,000 annually. This covers almost all the costs of the 200-student school."

Here's more information about Bountiful in B.C.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy65.html

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 01:32 AM

"Investigators testified Thursday that they found a household inside the Texas compound with 22 wives for one man, another with a 13-year-old mother and a third where a 17-year-old girl was married to a 46-year-old man."

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=b775ad9e-04c0-41b0-aee4-a964c932dfb5&p=2

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 01:32 AM

>>Wyler said he also believes that William E. Jessop, whom Jeffs temporarily named to replace him as prophet of the FLDS, also is living at Pringle.<<

I'm sure that God told Jeffs to name Jessop on an interim basis. One of the intersting things is that Smith's original doctrine emphasized the ability of anyone to learn to receive revelations. It wasn't long before the elders realized their mistake, and Brigham Young (I think it was) solidified the revised dogma that God had changed his mind - only the prophet would get the true revelations. It wasn't only the renouncing of polygamy that caused the fundamentalist split (that may not have even been the main cause) -it was also this change in doctrine which cause the initial splits - and then the many further splits among the fundies. (The Jessop name was a famous major split from Rulon Jeffs in the eighties.)

Not that I know anything - I just read some stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 01:31 PM

Here's a response to a letter I wrote in 2004.


"Thank you for your correspondence concerning Bountiful.

The Province of British Columbia is very concerned any time allegations of criminal or civil wrongdoing are raised and treats such allegations very seriously. The Province investigates all concerns falling within its jurisdiction and takes action when allegations are substantiated.

As you are likely aware, many of the concerns raised with regard to Bountiful involve allegations of criminal wrongdoing. The RCMP is conducting an investigation, and I have complete confidence that any concerns raised will be investigated. The Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Children and Family Development are co-operating fully with the RCMP on this matter.
If you are aware of any evidence that would assist the investigation, I encourage you to bring it to the attention of the RCMP Liaison Officer in Kelowna.

The Province has received letters alleging various breaches of the Independent School Act occurring at Bountiful School. The Ministry of Education has conducted a thorough review of concerns received, and investigations to date have shown that no breach of the Independent School Act has occurred at the school. The most recent inspection of Bountiful School occurred in November 2004.

Concerns regarding child safety in the community of Bountiful have also been expressed. The Ministry of Children and Family Development (MCFD) has investigated every complaint received and has not found evidence that children are in need of protection. If you have information that you believe shows that a child is in need of protection, you have a duty to report the matter to the Director of Child Protection.

The Province continues to monitor events at Bountiful and is keenly interested in the results of the RCMP investigation.

Thank you for your interest in this matter. "

Sincerely,

Tom Christensen
Minister

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 01:44 PM

Jacob Amman, after whom the Amish are named, broke away from the Mennonites in the 17th century, about a hundred years after the Mennonites were formed. Amman did so because he thought that Mennonites were too liberal and worldly.

The last I knew is that most Amish and other 'plain people' attend school until they are legally able to quit at age 16.

For the last 50 years many Amish have had their own schools and the curriculum goes through Grade 12 so if the parents wish it the child can learn a bit more.

Mennonites, per se, are far more liberal and they are not so afraid of knowledge than are the Amish. Many Mennoites go on to college, mostly in Goshen Indiana where they frequently get degrees in nursing and education.

I have heard Amish speak of education as being unnecessary and spiritually dangerous. That may have changed or been modified since there is far less farming land available to the male offspring of the Amish family so far more sons are going into the trades.

When I was young, most Amish men were farmers, carpenters or ministers. Today many of them, especially in the larger Amish communities, work in 'trailer plants' or as in one of my cousin's case, in small engine repair. Gasoline motors don't come under the ban.

What one hears nowadays about Amish boys dealing in drugs and other anomalies is due, in my opinion, to the ignorance so highly prized.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 02:13 PM

Dianavan, thanks for reproducing the letter from the B. C. Minister of Education, 2004. Soon afterwards, the RCMP dropped investigations.

Prosecution of the Bountiful 'school' for mis-use of funds could be difficult.

B. C. may re-open investigation of the Bountiful colony in light of the Texas action, and the presence of Bountiful children in Eldorado, but nothing but a few words about 'concerns' so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 04:18 PM

Yes, it seems that the Attorney General is being pushed into re-opening the investigation in light of Canadian children being present at the Texan compound. I'm sure that Canada will offer to give the Canadians legal counsel but I doubt if any criminal charges will be laid by Canada. Apparently Blackmore is now being investigated for 'sexual exploitation'.   

Its very hard to make any of this 'stick' without a victim coming forward. Unfortunately, those women who have left the cult and reported abuse, are not taken seriously. My question is why is Winston Blackmore (with more than 20 wives and 100 children) more credible than his first wife who was the midwife for Bountiful. She knew how young those mothers were and she reported it.

The reporter who has done the most to bring this problem to light is Daphne Bramham from the Vancouver Sun.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 07:58 PM

There is another excerpt from Carolyn Jessup's book HERE. Mostly about the weird changes Warren Jeffs ordered including banning the colour "red."

Also, it seems the authorities have moved some of the children to foster care: CLick.

And, the FLDS now has a website up for this whole thing in which they tell their "side" of the story PLUS accept donations to help with legal expenses: Captive FLDS Children dot com.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 11:09 PM

There's some interesting stuff HERE along with a video of a Q&A with some of the parents HERE.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 12:24 AM

The videos are very powerful and helps me to understand why Canada is so slow to take action in Bountiful. It seems to me that CPS in Texas has been very heavy handed and really has no right to separate children from their families without evidence of abuse. Although I do think there are individuals who may need protection, its hard to believe that 400 healthy looking children should be subjected to such emotional hardship.

I understand that it may be difficult for the children (and women) to speak against the teachings of FLDS, in front of their men but it does seem to me that individual rights are being abused. I really do not know how this will end up but I doubt very much if it serves any purpose to subject the children to emotional trauma by the State.

We will have to see how this plays out. I come from a community of 300 people and I am trying to imagine how it would feel if all of the children were removed from their homes based on an anonymous phone call. Lets face it, the way Texas has handled this really does amount to religious persecution. I don't like it, I think FLDS is a cult but I think CPS should have solid evidence before they disrupt a whole community and sieze their children.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:58 AM

Much of the help with the children is coming from the Baptist churches of San Angelo. Hmmm, does this amount to "emotional trauma"?

Sorry for the levity, it just struck me as funny. Transport shown in the news photos has the Baptist label, and I hear from friends that they are assisting in keeping the children occupied.
The older children are being placed in foster homes. Nursing infants have been kept with their mothers. Children aged five and older, "about 100 of them, were taken to locations scattered across Texas pending individual custody hearings." (Texas is large, the scattering is not specified, but it could be hundreds of miles.)

Yes, this does seem unnecessary disruption of the community.
"Child Protective Services representatives said that in the coming days, other placements are expected to continue until all the children in San Angelo are in other temporary quarters." Quotes from the San Angelo newspaper:

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/23/fairgrounds-busy-but-no-children-moved-from/
The local San Angelo newspaper seems to be doing a good job of covering the story.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 09:53 AM

They do have evidence of abuse directly from the fact that underage girls gave birth and are now mothers with their own babies, toddlers and children. The children also have been told they have no personal choice in getting "married". That is abuse. They have testimony of boys who were put out and abandoned at a young age. That is abuse.

The innocent members of this group, adults and children, have been abused by those leaders who require that the boys be expelled and that the girls have sex at an age too young for consent.

This is an apocalyptic group. More than once Jeffs has predicted the end of the world.

At any time the 'prophet' and his henchmen could decide it would be better for them all to go to zion literally.

Because of the large number of children, it seems like a no win situation. But putting them in a place temporarily while the true parentage is determined and the girls who are being made to have sex with the men don't have to fear being molested by their uncle, cousin, or step-father husband, is the lesser of two evils.

Group homes, foster care, orphanages are not the best situation, but I have talked to people who grew up in abusive cults, and they have told me they would have far rather been in foster care than in the constant fear they lived in with their parents.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 10:04 AM

Another note, the mothers obviously cannot protect the children at home. They have to do what they are ordered to do by the male leaders. "Failure to protect" against neglect (expelling boys) and abuse (rape), is cause to have the children in a monitored living situation.

If they could send the mothers from the ranch to go with their children to shelter on the outside, that would have been better. The women are victims of the controlled situation in the ranch, too. As long as they are in the FLDS living situation, they cannot protect their children there.

If the mothers were drug addicts and letting their boyfriends molest their children, it would be obvious the kids have to be separated from them. You have to realize that following the prophet's orders is like a drug to these adults. It is more important to them to get that fix of obeying god's orders.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 11:41 AM

Ex-FLDS member, male, interview.

Click Here, printed full Interview

A. How can a boy or girl even question who does what, when the only thing you have ever understood is — we are the "Elite people of God" and our Leaders are in His "Perfect Will". You do not even question!!

Q. What opinion do you have of the actions of the Texas CPS? Do you think that many children will cooperate to identify abusers or is the control over them too thorough?

A. Thank you TEXAS – but we'll see… In time they could recover yes, but it will take months and in some cases, years. I am still dealing with my own personal emotions and this is 38 years later.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:48 PM

Latest news from San Angelo-

The largest legal aid group in Texas, Texas Rio Grande Legal Aid, filed a request in the Third Court of Appeals, to hear arguments over whether the state of texas can place children fron the FCLD into foster care without giving their families the opportunity to defend themselves in ourt. The Appeals Court has decided to hear arguments.
"The appeals court will conduct a hearing at 2 PM Tuesday in Austin. Although the state of Texas has said that all of the FLDS children would be placed into foster care by the end of the week, these developments make it unclear as to whether that will still occur."
www.gosanangelo.com, Apr. 24.
According to another news report, children already moved have gone to placement shelters as "far-flung as Amarillo, Abilene, Waxahachie, Houston and Austin."'James C. Harrington, Director of the Texas Civil Rights Project, says in a column in the San Angelo StandardTimes, that "It is becoming increasingly apparent that either officials were duped intop obtaining a false warrant or obtained a warrant for which there was no reasonable factual basis."
"It is also clear the evidence Child Protective Services has so far is slim, to say the least, and even that questionable evidence may have been manufactured."
...."Nothing at this time suggests wrongdoing to justify mass separation of all the children from their mothers..... So far, nothing has come to light that shows any grievous misconduct at the Eldorado Ranch. In fact, it turns out that one alleged perpetrator has been in Colorado all the time." Apt. 24, www.gosanangelo.com.

So far, no evidence has been presented that shows any of the children at Eldorado belong to underage mothers, and no evidence, other than hearsay, that anyone was abused. The DNA is supposed to shed some light on relationships.

Speculation and hearsay are rife whenever aberrant groups are examined; some is being posted here. Let us hope that the state of Texas has evidence to back up allegations of child abuse and its rather draconian actions.
The Court of Appeals may stop or change the direction of the investigation; we may know more next week.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:17 PM

I'm sad for all of them. It's a mess, no doubt about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 09:00 PM

CPS spokesman said they have identified "25 more" underage mothers with children. The total number was not stated. More children were moved out from the coliseum today.
www.gosanangelo.com

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 12:59 AM

It is a mess. It's also hard, imo, to not feel sympathetic towards the parents, esp. the mothers, until I remember the control there is in the mainstream Mormon church, let alone FLDS AND until I read another report about under-age mothers, etc. I feel mostly for the children. Of course they are going to want to go home, it's the only thing they've ever known...what have they had to compare it to, until now and now is too scary to even seem fun or adventuresome, I suppose. Poor kids. In the long run, it will have been worth it, though, imo, if it saves even one kid from a despicable life of servitude, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 02:28 AM

"The children also have been told they have no personal choice in getting "married". - Alice

Thats not what the members who were interviewed said.

They also mentioned that the law was changed after they moved to Texas. Those who married young apparently did so before the law was changed.

I'm certainly not defending them but I do understand how difficult it will be to prosecute anyone and why law enforcement has been dragging their heels for so long.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 07:46 AM

The lastest count of underaged mothers has been put at more than 500. Because the underaged mothers are now able to retain custody of their own children they have been coming forth, where as before many were lying about their true ages.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 11:32 AM

As I previously posted, although the age for marriage in Texas is 16, there are exceptions with 1, parental consent, and 2, a judge's permission, that allows a girl to marry at age 13. Moreover, the old common law rule of age 12 has not been removed from the books in Texas. There is room for challenge.

Also as posted, a civil rights group will be heard in Appeals Court on Tuesday; what arguments will be brought forth, and how good the state's evidence is, might become evident at that time.

The Appeals Court has rejected requests to immediately stop busing the children to far-flung foster homes, but will hear arguments in the case next week. CPS custody now includes children down to one year in age. Mothers were not permitted to say goodbye, according to a legal aid expert representing some of the mothers.
Individual custody cases for each of the children will not begin before June.

From the San Angelo newspaper, April 25; www.gosanangelo.com

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 11:37 AM

One further note from the newspaper- "Most authorities" now believe that the call for help came from Colorado; a woman who previously has made false calls.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 12:06 PM

I heard on the news this morning that many of the children were being taken to group homes and that nursing mothers were allowed to go with them (I should hope!) Also that mothers with children under two were being put up in the same towns as their children OR it may have been for kids over two, also.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 09:36 PM

At 1 PM today, CPS representatives said that the last of 462 children have been moved out from the Coliseum and bused to foster care around the State.
The increase to 462 resulted from a number of adults being reclassified as minors. The spokesman said "dozens" of minors have children or are pregnant.
Details are being worked out that will allow mothers a chance to see their children, according to Darrell Azar, CPS communications director.

In a related story, it was alleged that the Sect's 100 million dollar trust was drained to finance the Eldorado ranch and colony.

Reports in San Angelo Standard-Times, www.gosanangelo.com, April 25.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 11:10 PM

"Ex-fundamentalist fears 'scandal from Hell'
She says Canadian children could have been sent to Texas compound without their parents"
Daphne Bramham, Vancouver Sun
Published: Thursday, April 24, 2008

It will be "an international scandal from hell" if Texas officials determine that some of the Canadian children taken from the polygamous compound in Texas were taken there without their parents, says a former member of the fundamentalist Mormon group.

And Carolyn Jessop believes that is "a very strong possibility."

"I suspect that they [the FLDS] had a whole lot of kids there without their parents," said Jessop, who fled the community in 2003 with her eight children.
The Vancouver Sun

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 11:50 PM

Holy crap. Never thought of that. I sure hope it doesn't come to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 11:32 AM

Do you mean you never thought it would be a scandal from hell?

I think it already is for the women and children. If there are Canadian children in Texas without their biological parents, there will be hell to pay.

As the recent, cited article explains, most of these women have turned their children over to the perps and because of that, its doubtful if they are fit to parent.

How would you begin to provide foster care for such children? They will need years and years of therapy. For the judicial system, its a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 12:09 PM

Dianavan, was that question for me?
My post was a copy and paste from the Vancouver Sun article.
It is all their words, headline, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 12:31 PM

-- Excerpted from The Secret Lives of Saints: Child Brides and Lost Boys in Canada's Polygamous Mormon Sect. Copyright © 2008 Daphne Bramham. Published by Random House Canada. Reproduced by arrangement with the Publisher. All rights reserved.

excerpt The Secret Lives of Saints

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 01:33 PM

The 462 children have been placed in group care facilities rather than private homes.
Reasons are: children will be together, for mutual support; to avoid cultural shock from TV, red color (forbidden by the sect), etc., to continue schooling in a form similar to that practiced in the colony and avoid the shock of public school, etc.
Since the children have never eaten processed foods, whole grains and fresh vegetables are provided. "Bologna and white bread" are out (and, I presume pizza).
The 'prairie dresses' for the girls is a problem, 'since Wal-mart doesn't sell them,' said the director of the San Antonio shelter. He said that shelter personnel would tread carefully.

Problems are inadequate staff and low financing, but the State said they will deal with that.

Article in NY Times today, " Sect Children Face Another World, but Still No TV," http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/26/us/26rald.html?th&emc=th

Unrelated cultural problems are surfacing with other groups, esp. Muslims. Polygamy apparently is being practiced in New York by some, Ontario Muslims (some) have petitioned to have Sharia law applied to them rather than the civil system, and female genital mutilation is being practiced by some immigrants.

The whole business of individual freedoms, and how far a group can be permitted to deviate from what are considered acceptable lifestyles by 'society,' comes into question.

So far, only one Canadian child at Eldorado has been mentioned in the press, but Texas authorities have not been forthcoming, probably delaying until DNA tests and other information is developed. This may take some time. Hearsay is that there are several Canadians.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 09:09 PM

The first of a series of articles:

"A Deeper Conversation About the Fundamentalist Church of Latter-Day Saints

Posted by Sara Robinson, Orcinus at 2:51 PM on April 25, 2008.

Getting past the titillation of government raids. "
FLDS founding patriarch Rulon Jeffs with his last two wives -- sisters Edna and Mary Fischer -- on their wedding day. He received the pair as a 90th birthday present.


A deeper conversation

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 11:28 PM

As I wrote in this thread "Our home and native land--sometimes", this is a terrible thing happening in a world full of terrible things.

I avoided opening up this thread until tonight, because I knew that what I would read would be so abhorrent. Part of the reason why I avoided reading this thread was because I suspected that the teachings of that church were racist, and I am beyond up to here in reading about racism. Another reason why I was so reluctant to open this thread was that I know about sexual molestation, and I know about the emotional scars it leaves. Thirdly, about 40 years ago, I was a part of an African American cultural organization in which some men had more than one woman/wife though this was without the prior knowledge of their first woman/wife. Thank goodness, I left that organization before it became a cult-if it ever did. And I haven't ever had any communication with anyone from that organization, with the exception of one encounter when I contacted a woman from that organization who I had been somewhat close with, and was told that she and other women in that group couldn't trust me because I was tainted by being out "in the world".

Some two years after I left that group, a girlfriend and I spent the day and night in New York City with a family [African American] which consisted of one man and his three wives. Each of his "wives" were younger than the next, but the youngest wife {the third wife} was in her 20s. Also, these weren't child relationships with an adult male, or even young teen relationships. My understanding is that each of the women were over 18 years old when they "hooked up" with the man, who appeared to be in his late 30s or early 40s. The third wife was my girlfriend's childhood friend. That woman was very pregnant, and actually went into labor the night we were there. We were told by that woman that her "husband" takes turn sleeping in rotation throughout the week with his "wifes". We were also told that their other children had been taken from them by the "authorities". That family planned to relocate to Isreal. I'm assuming that they did, I never heard anything more about them.

Let me hasten to say that I don't believe that any of the organizations or any of the men and women I have known who have had polygamous relationships or who are/were in cult-like organizations had experiences that were even 1/10 as horrendous as what I am reading about in that FDLS community. Those communities in Texas and elsewhere sound to me like the worse forms of slavery. And our government, and Canada, and other nations are complicent in this horror because of money and power. I'm so angry and I'm so tired of the wink & nod and look-the-other-wayism that law enforcement and government officials and other people have done over decades, thus   failing to proactively, consistently, and forcefully address this humanitarian crisis which is way beyond a crisis. At least, is that reading this thread I know that I'm not the only one on this forum who feels the same way.

Having worked in the child welfare/social services field for about 30 years I know that even in more "normalized" situations, foster care is difficult for children. Unfortunately, I have no doubts that those Texas children and teens are going to have enormous difficulties adjusting to life in the child welfare system, which in the best of times does not operate very well {which is such an understatement}. But I very much agree that it is in the best interests of those children and teens to have removed them from that FDLS community. Further, I can't see how those children/teens can be reunited with their parents given the abuses and potential for abuse that has and can occur in that community.

I just wish that we could remove the women also, but that as adults, they have the right of self-determination. As for the FLDS men, especially the leaders, I wish we could throw them all in prison-and not the country club prisons but the hard core prisons that are overcrowded with usually poor Black men and usually poor Brown men and usually poor Native American men and usually poor White men-and I wish that we could then throw away the keys to the those prisons for those men, until we are somehow? assured that they have been rehabilitated, but how is that possible without going against freedom of religion, prisoners' rights etc. etc. This is beyond abhorrent, and I don't know what the answers are. But I just wanted to be on record to say that I care about those children and teens, and I care about the women in those communities too, though not as much, and as for the men, I care very little if at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 11:28 PM

I pay no attention to blog sites.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 11:59 PM

There is a library being established by non FLDS residents near Colorado City, AZ, as books were banned in that community and people have now received help from the county to establish a public library.
A building has been donated. They need books and financial donations.
A thread about the library and need for donations is here:

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=110756

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 06:58 AM

Here's that hyperlink:

thread.cfm?threadid=110756 "Rebuild library, please donate books"

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Penny S.
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 01:37 PM

I recently started reading books from my local library again, and found Zane Grey's "Riders of the Purple Sage" and its sequel which had been banned originally because of opposition from the LDS. I read it as an insight into history. It never occurred to me that the appalling behaviour Grey chronicled was still going on to such an extent, though I had seen programs about one community - if community is the right word.

The issue of the women being adults and being free to make their own choices about their future is very moot.

The issue of religious freedom is even mooter (!?) By what right does one person's freedom allow him to inhibit another's? (Nearly always a him, isn't it?

Very odd, isn't it, that if God wanted polygyny, he arranged for roughly equal numbers of boys and girls to be born?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 02:01 PM

The lawyer who represented the mother and kids that I helped get away from the C.U.T. cult here in Montana (a cult led by a woman, by the way)
mentioned that the RICO laws should be used against organized criminal groups like C.U.T. that were taking money and property from followers, laundering it and enriching the leader(s).

Usually, people think of the RICO laws in terms of fighting the Mafia.

That is not the first time I've heard of the idea of using RICO (Federal Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act) to prosecute destructive cults. And today I found this article referring to the FLDS and RICO. The Jeffs group certainly has a pattern of "bleeding the beast", taking money from the government with welfare fraud and getting government bids on contracts.

You may remember the explosion of the Challenger space shuttle, caused by faulty O rings. It was an FLDS company that manufactured those O rings.

Here is the article mentioning RICO and FLDS.

THE FLDS AND ORGANIZED CRIME PROSECUTIONS
Click Here

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 02:33 PM

2007 Arizona news report on the FLDS girls being sent to Canada, ex-FLDS members get together at a potluck and talk about their experiences.
Includes interview with Canadian reporter about RCMP.


You Tube recorded from TV

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 02:49 PM

2 girls who tried to run found tied together and drowned in the reservoir. Colorado City.
Description by their cousin, ex-flds, video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BLkJRFSVbw&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 06:28 PM

Alice, that last one was tough to watch. I hope she finds her mom. I hope law enforcement blows this whole thing wide open and keeps it from ever happening again.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 09:33 PM

kat, I HOPE so too, but I'm rather afraid it's a vain hope. I just feel in my gut that these bastards are going to win again.

I wish I knew a way to stop it at it's source, but I don't. These horny, lust filled men will find a way to keep it going, and NO, I don't rally think it is all LUST....some of them seem to really, really BELIEVE that GOD is speaking to them....and they MUST do this.

Sad, very sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 11:51 PM

It would be very interesting to know how much welfare money is going to these so-called single moms (spiritual wives) and how the schools can continue to receive funding when there seems to be no accountability.

Alice - That video was heartbreaking. Doesn't that woman have a right to file a missing persons report or have any credibility with law enforcement regarding the deaths of her cousins? How long will this be allowed to continue?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 12:40 AM

More than one company with the name Western Precision Inc.; Western Precision Inc. is headquartered in Portland, Oregon, and another is based in Austin, Texas.

They should not be confused with the New Era Company of Las Vegas, NV, which had branches called Utah Tool and Die and Western Precision Inc. of Hildale, Utah (the last has moved out to the Nevada plant).

Does anyone know anything about the FLDS site in Rosarito, Mexico?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 08:48 AM

Can anyone explain why the Child Protective people are hiding the color red from the kids?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Emma B
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 08:55 AM

'It was around this time (mid 1990s) when Warren banned the color red. He announced that it was inappropriate to wear the color red or have red items in our home because it was reserved for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He preached that when Jesus Christ returns he'll do so in a red robe and wearing that color prior to the second coming is unholy.

He made the pronouncement one Sunday in church and those wearing red went home immediately and changed clothes. Other families got rid of every red item they owned. This was a hardship for families without much money. Children lost a lot of clothes, coats and boots. Women with red in their dresses had to get rid of them; for some this meant throwing out a sizable percentage of their wardrobe. Some families adapted to this with a more moderate approach; when the red clothes, toys, or household items wore out, they would abandon them. The more extreme families discarded all red items immediately.

One teacher told her students red wasn't a bad color, it was beautiful. The students reported her rebellion to their parents. The parents complained and asked that the teacher, who was not a member of the FLDS, respect their beliefs and asked that red be removed from her classroom.

Merril had always liked red. In our family we went through the closets and eliminated most of our red clothes.'

Carolyn Jessop
Former FLDS Member/Co-Author of "Escape

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:05 AM

Ah, OK, thanks. Weirdness is afoot.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 10:09 AM

Mormon missions in general are common in Mexico.
There are other Mormon polygamy groups living in Mexico, not FLDS, as well as the FLDS communities.
I don't have a specific reference to Rosarito, yet, but here is some info about FLDS in Mexico.

This article shows a map as well as info about Mitt Romney's father and family home in Mexico (LDS members, not FLDS).

Mormon missionaries are a source of recruits for the CIA and FBI. Patriotism is very ingrained in the religion. Brigham Young University campus yields many young men and women well suited for CIA and FBI careers. This is kind of common knowledge in states aroud Utah. I wondered myself if that is one reason FBI have kept back from investigating FLDS in the past.

Here is the link to the article and map:

Mexico, drug money, church tithes

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 10:17 AM

Please note that drug money in Mexico is donated to other religions in Mexico, too. The article begins

"When a Mexican bishop declared that drug traffickers often donate to the church, shock waves ran through this predominantly Roman Catholic nation not because the news was a surprise, but because admitting it was tantamount to confessing that nothing, not even God, is sacred when it comes to organized crime in Mexico."

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 11:27 AM

I was responding to rumors that some FLDS men had taken refuge in Rosarito, Baja Mexico, and that an FLDS colony had been started there.
Rosarito Beach, south of San Diego and Tijuana, is hot on the retirement and second home circuit; some 25,000 Americans have bought there.
The rumor seems unlikely, or there could be a settlement start-up near Rosarito. Looking for information.

The LDS is strong throughout the west; with large establishments from Alberta to Mexico, and Hawai'i. They are particularly important to the economy in Alberta, Idaho, Arizona and Oahu. The Cardston, Alberta, Temple is one of the church's major temples in North America, the area settled by Mormon pioneers. The Laie, Hawai'i Temple, started in 1915, is next to Brigham Young University-Hawai'i and is on plantation land owned since 1865. The Mesa, AZ, Temple, is an imposing landmark; the Mesa area first settled by Mormon pioneers. Hispanic American amd Mexican Saints make regular pilgrimages there, although there are three or more temples in Mexico. The Twin Falls, Idaho, Temple also is a striking structure. Worldwide, there are 125 temples. Two new temples have been announced for Arizona.
This, of course, has nothing to do with the FLDS.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 11:54 AM

Wyoming also has many LDS towns, long established. Many from Wyoming are moving up to eastern Montana, a new temple has been built in Billings, MT. I sell yellow pages advertising in Montana. My accounts in Billings who are dentists tell me many new Mormon dentists have moved to Billings to set up practice. One of my co-workers is Mormon. He sells the ads to the Mormon dentists, as they network and prefer to trade as a group and work with a Mormon ad rep.

I've asked an investigator of the FLDS about the Mexican settlements. No word yet.

I do know there is a polygamous cult near Rosarito Baja, but it is The Family, not FLDS. Totally different group, but have had charges of child abuse and neglect.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Emma B
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 12:14 PM

Jon Krakauer the author of "Under the Banner of Heaven." writing in 2004 about the establishment of Mancos, a small FLDS community in Colorado's southwest corner, considered the possibility that two of the dissenting/disappeared cult members (officially classified as missing persons by Interpol and other international law enforcement agencies) may be held in a secret location against their will.

'Maybe they will be found, instead, in Bountiful (a shadowy polygamist outpost in southeastern British Columbia), or the Harker Ranch (an even more clandestine FLDS settlement in Utah's Escalante Desert), or a compound rumored to be somewhere in Mexico - which, if it really exists, has been concealed so effectively that no outsider even knows its exact location.'

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 01:13 PM

Sheriffs have been getting together to share knowledge and info on FLDS compounds in Colorado, Utah and elsewhere. There is an article at the Deseret News. Here's an excerpt:

ZEither because of government pressure or feelings of religious persecution, many FLDS faithful are leaving the sect's strongholds of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City and branching out across the Western United States.

"They just want to find places they can stay under the radar and do whatever it is that they're doing," said Washington County Sheriff Kirk Smith.

Besides the YFZ Ranch in Eldorado, Texas, enclaves are known to exist in Bountiful, British Columbia in Canada; near Mancos, Colo.; Pringle, S.D.; and a farm near Pioche, Nev. Many FLDS have also assimilated into communities near Las Vegas and here in Colorado

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 04:57 PM

Please see updates posted on the library thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:44 PM

News today:
"More than half the teen girls taken from a polygamist compound in west Texas have children or are pregnant, state officials said Monday."

CLICK

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 07:56 PM

From the link above by Alice, and same as in numerous other reports:

A total of 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 are in state custody after a raid 3½ weeks ago at the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado.

Of those girls, 31 either have children or are pregnant, said Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar. Two of those are pregnant now, he said; it was unclear whether either of those two already have children.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 08:24 PM

The same story at the San Angelo paper, with comments from readers.
San Angelo

One of the questions asked was about marriageable age in other states- most, like Texas, inc. Utah and Arizona, require age 16 with parental consent.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 08:48 PM

I wonder if it might be worthwhile to think of the sect's mores and lifestyle as being of a different century? Born in 1901 my father, for instance, started driving a team of work horses in North Dakota at age 7.

Neighbors of my family in the early '50s in Virginia had five children. The mother was still only 18.

Settlers of the American west were of all ages. The first wife of a farmer often died early, either from childbearing or its attendant diseases. The farmer then often married a much younger woman and started all over again.

An ancestor of mine did that. After 7 children his wife died. He then married the young maid who had taken care of the household while his wife was ill and they had 8 children together.

Just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:11 PM

Ebbie, that is not the source of their mores.
They believe that god speaks to the men (priests) in FLDS and tells them what to do. Starting with Joseph Smith, part of the continuing "revelation" was to start having more than one wife. Bringing "souls" down into the world who were waiting to be born, they were told they should not be born as "hindoos" or other religions, but to be born Latter Day Saints and part of the celestial kingdom.
Hence, many wives, many children. It's the way to upper levels and more happiness after death in their belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:21 PM

from Wiki on FLDS
Distinctive Doctrines FLDS

"Plural marriage and the law of placing

The FLDS Church teaches the doctrine of plural marriage, which states that a man having multiple wives is ordained by God and is a requirement for a man to receive the highest form of salvation. It is generally believed in the church that a man should have a minimum of three wives to fulfill this requirement.[44] Connected with this doctrine is the concept that wives are required to be subordinate to their husbands.

The church currently practices the law of placing, whereby a young woman of marriageable age is assigned a husband by revelation from God to the leader of the church, who is regarded as a prophet.[45] The prophet elects to take and give wives to and from men according to their worthiness."

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:36 PM

From the same link in my previous post:

In its Spring 2005 "Intelligence Report," the Southern Poverty Law Center named the FLDS Church to its hate group listing because of the church's teachings on race, which include a fierce condemnation of interracial relationships. Warren Jeffs has said, "the black race is the people through which the devil has always been able to bring evil unto the earth."

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 10:55 PM

According to recent articles, the Texas "age of consent" is 17. That probably is a reason for choosing the age bracket from 14 to 17 for the report on children and preganancies.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 11:27 PM

From Canadian television news, an update to the 2006 filmed documentary called "Bust Up In Bountiful". There is video of the news story, too. Requires windows media (I don't have windows media on my mac).
Text of the interviews also at the link here:

Bust Up In Bountiful

"Jane Blackmore
As the first of his 26 wives Jane says she lived a privileged life and stood by Winston during their 17 years of marriage bearing him 7 of his reported 80 children.

In an interview with Hana Gartner three years ago she talked about growing up as a woman in Bountiful and revealed why she decided to leave it all behind. She has since divorced Winston Blackmore. "

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 12:23 AM

Hana Gartner is a good reporter. I tend to accept her reports as factual. Thanks for the link.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 11:28 AM

From the Dallas Morning News today:

New developments in the FLDS case

12:00 AM CDT on Tuesday, April 29, 2008

From staff reports

No hearing today: A hearing by the 3rd Court of Appeals that had been scheduled for today has been canceled. Appellate judges gave the state until Friday to respond to a claim by 48 mothers that there wasn't enough evidence for state District Judge Barbara Walther to rule April 18 that the children should remain in state care.

Cases to be assigned: Each of the 463 children will be assigned to a Child Protective Services caseworker. Each caseworker will work with no more than 15 of the sect's children. They won't have any other children assigned to them, for the time being.

Sick children: CPS confirmed that nine of the sect's children have been hospitalized while in the state's care and six are currently in a hospital. The ailments have included dehydration, ear infections and respiratory problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 02:22 PM

Just received the DVD in the mail of Banking on Heaven.

I'm only 5 minutes into it and there is so much more that is being revealed about FLDS and Jeffs.

No one is supposed to give love to their spouse or children, no affection, as that love is all supposed to go to prophet Jeffs.

No one owns their car, their house, or has a right to keep their income, as it is all owned by UEP and all money that is not needed for basic living must go to UEP and Jeffs.
"you give your money to him and you give your daughters to him" and that shows you are a better person.

Whatever your husband makes goes to the prophet. The only recourse the mothers have is food stamps to feed their children.

"He has ruled by fear from day one."

They showed the kids the Challenger launch. The children who were excited to finally see tv. The kids were told, "God blew it up" because a woman was on board and she was going out of her place.

"keeing myself in the limelight absolutely kept my daughter alive, that way they could not kill her"

alice

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:50 PM

Downloading CBS video Bustup in Bountiful to a Mac-
Install the Flip4Mac attachment from Apple.

Go to Apple.com
Click on Downloads heading.
See listing for Video on left side where it says All Downloads.
Click on Video.
Type Flip4Mac in the search blank.
Choose the Flip4Mac Windows Media Components.
or:
Use this link-
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/video/flip4macwindowsmediacomponentsforquicktime.html

From my daughter who has a Mac

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Penny S.
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 04:16 PM

If the Bible is right, and in heaven the last shall be first and the first last, those men are surely in for a shock.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 05:27 PM

Many fundamentalist churches and sects teach that the male of the household is not only the boss, the captain of the ship, but is to be obeyed and revered. They get that from the Christian Bible, from St. Paul's writings if I remember correctly.

The FLDS. like some others, has taken that concept a long step forward and in the name of their god made any disobedience a punishable offense.

I don't uderstand how the 'priesthood' creates such fervent and idealistic disciples, unless it is all to be explained as a condition of power, i.e. if each male is to be revered in his role, he is content to revere in his turn the top dog.

The whole thing is just sad beyond words.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 10:31 PM

$13 million dollars cost to taxpayers in just one instance of causing a bank to fail. Over $30 million a year estimated of taxpayer money going to Colorado City for food stamps and public assistance. Jeffs predicted the end of the world and told the FLDS members to take out loans from the Ephraim bank and then file bankruptcy. The bank failed when they did this. - from Banking on Heaven

This is very close to what happened with the new age cult near Yellowstone. In the 90's, the "ma guru" told members they had to build fallout shelters because the USSR was going to start a nuclear war and it would be the end times. Many members maxed out credit cards, took out loans, spent millions and bought the fallout shelter "spaces" from the cult, bought their survival supplies, sat in the shelter... and when the world did not end, they were bankrupt. They defaulted on payments, local merchants were left with the bad debts, people filed bankruptcy, but many still continue to believe in her. This scenario has played out in many kinds of cult situations.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 11:31 AM

One thing that has been niggling me is how the authorities were unable to accurately know the age of these pregnant teenagers...

I found this explanation today if anyone else has had the same thoughts.

'The FLDS had its own hospitals, which it used as tools of social control:

FLDS communities put a priority on providing as much health care inside the community as possible, so they're not dependent on outside medical professionals. (To this end, pregnant mothers have often been sent to Hildale or Bountiful in their last months, so they can be attended by the FLDS midwives there.) Hildale/Colorado City has its own hospital — built partly with public funds — that has employed only doctors and nurses who have pledged their first loyalty to the Prophet.

As a result, the group's women and children get much of their primary care from people who feel no accountability to established medical standards of practice, state record-keeping requirements, or any of the existing mandated reporter laws. (Most people in these communities have no idea these laws even exist.) The spotty record-keeping that results is why the state of Texas has made the wise decision to do DNA testing on all the kids: it cannot be taken for granted that their birth certificates are accurate (or, in some places, exist at all).'

This 'closed' medical/hospital system also seems to have other even more malign elements of social control....

'The FLDS has also co-opted mental health services into another form of wife abuse. In Hildale/Colorado City, FLDS doctors have proven quite willing to declare unhappy women crazy. Daphne Bramham found that up to a third of FLDS women are on anti-depressants; and that women who are express acute dissatisfaction with the life have often been committed to mental hospitals in Arizona by the community's doctors. According to Bramham, the fear of being labeled insane and shut away in an institution is one of the most potent threats the community has used to keep women in their place.'

From the 'Feministe' website

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 11:36 AM

even more scary!

the same webpage shows this photo of FLDS founding patriarch Rulon Jeffs with his last two 'wives' — sisters Edna and Mary Fischer — on their 'wedding' day. He received the pair as a 90th birthday present

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 04:02 PM

The following seems to corroborate what some of the refugees have already said in their various books, etc.:

(CNN) -- At least 41 children taken from a polygamist sect's Texas ranch may have had past broken bones, officials say, and investigators are looking into the possible sexual abuse of some of the sect's young boys.

"The investigation is still in its early phases, but we have gathered additional information that is cause for concern," the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services said in a statement on its Web site.

The statement said the department is looking into the possibility that some of the young boys taken from the Yearning for Zion Ranch near Eldorado, Texas, had been sexually abused based on interviews with the children and journal entries found at the ranch.

The department did not provide additional information.

The statement did not provide details about the 41 children investigators believe may have had broken bones, saying it does "not have X-rays or complete medical information on many children so it is too early to draw any conclusions based on this information."

"But it is cause for concern and something we'll continue to examine," it said.

The department said it presented its findings to the Texas Senate Health and Human Services Committee on Wednesday.

Texas authorities and child welfare officials raided the ranch earlier this month after receiving calls alleging physical and sexual abuse of girls at the compound.

The state currently has custody of the more than 460 children and youths who were removed from the ranch, which is owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a Mormon offshoot that practices polygamy.

On Tuesday, a teenage girl from the ranch gave birth to a healthy boy, said Marleigh Meisner, a spokeswoman for the protective services department.

At the time of the raid, state officials said teenage girls were routinely forced into underage marriages and sex with men who were much older.

Texas law puts the general age of consent at 17. Marriage is permitted at 16 with permission from a parent, according to The Associated Press.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 04:03 PM

What Emma B points out is part of the way abuse could be covered up. Now CPS has found that some children in custody have evidence of past broken bones, abuse of boys... in today's news:

(CNN) -- At least 41 children taken from a polygamist sect's Texas ranch may have had past broken bones, officials say, and investigators are looking into the possible sexual abuse of some of the sect's young boys.

"The investigation is still in its early phases, but we have gathered additional information that is cause for concern," the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services said in a statement on its Web site.

The statement said the department is looking into the possibility that some of the young boys taken from the Yearning for Zion Ranch near Eldorado, Texas, had been sexually abused based on interviews with the children and journal entries found at the ranch.

The department did not provide additional information.

The statement did not provide details about the 41 children investigators believe may have had broken bones, saying it does "not have X-rays or complete medical information on many children so it is too early to draw any conclusions based on this information."

"But it is cause for concern and something we'll continue to examine," it said.

The department said it presented its findings to the Texas Senate Health and Human Services Committee on Wednesday.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 04:04 PM

snap, Kat, we were posting at the same time LOL !

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:23 PM

A Corpus Christi Ark that has received some of the children says it receives $106 per day per child from the state, and says more is needed because of special needs of the children. The public is being asked for cash, so that they can buy products on an as-needed basis.
The children are used to whole milk, pure honey, real maple syrup, and pure vanilla, large black or white hair scrunchies (what are these?), and all-white bed linens.
The 32 staff members are adapting to the situation. They say the children (4 months to 17 years) are well-mannered and cause no problems. Court documents ssay nine children were sent to this facility.
From the San Angelo newspaper, on line at www.gosanangelo.com.

(Note- most vanilla is in alcoholic solution; alcohol in any form is forbidden).

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: MaineDog
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 07:50 PM

Scrunchies are hair ties, like fancy rubber bands, for pony tails.
MD

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Emma B
Date: 01 May 08 - 07:03 AM

There have been many potentially heartrending photos of tearful women dressed in pastel prarie dresses published but few like this .....

'.....the revelation of countless numbers of unmarked baby graves in the canyonlands attached to the FLDS polygamy cult headquartered on the Utah-Arizona border.
Local residents call it "Babyland" and law enforcement's response to human rights activists questioning the graves has been that unmarked graves are not illegal.'

'These communities also bury their own dead (and at least one has its own crematorium), which opens the way to record-keeping anomalies with death certificates -- and ensures that no questions will ever be asked, and no autopsies will ever be performed. Given the genetic instability and volatile control issues within this group, it may not be wise for them to have the means to dispose of dead bodies without official oversight. We need to be asking questions about who's in their cemeteries and crematoria, how they got there, and what kinds of records are being kept.'

From Alternet

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 May 08 - 09:00 AM

All this well-meaning attempt to keep from freaking the kids out was sadly lacking from the Elian thingie, is anybody else reminded of that?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 01 May 08 - 10:18 AM

Regarding the infant deaths.
There are witnesses to infants being born with birth defects and being smothered to death. The baby graves are not only in the "babyland" cemetery, but also spread around in the hills around the FLDS communities. Outside doctors are avoided. What goes on in the community is kept secret as much as possible, as they believe outsiders and the excommunicated are evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 May 08 - 02:43 PM

Doctors in the San Angelo region are saying 40 broken bones among 200 farm/rural children is not unusual. Doctors examining the Eldorado children have found no pattern of systematic abuse, and foster homes report that the children are healthy.

The CPS is trying to maximize the charges.
The FLDS is trying to minimize them.
Statements on both sides are designed by lawyers to show on one hand the case is valid and on the other to show that it lacks merit.
These statements, from both sides, cannot be accepted without sworn testimony from experts.
We will not know the true situation until documented evidence is presented in Court.

Until about 1920, especially in rural America, infants with evident birth defects were often allowed to die, or the doctor/midwife would not apply life-saving measures at birth.
The so-called 'baby cemeteries' are based on hearsay; the 'witnesses' may not be credible.

The incidence of inherited defects is high when the father carries a defective gene and passes it on to numerous children; this seems to have been proven at the Bountiful, BC, colony, although I haven't seen the clinical study. Overall among FLDS children, I have not seen any clinical reports.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 01 May 08 - 03:17 PM

Q, if you have not, then you just have not read enough or watched enough evidence from those who have been reporting on FLDS for a long time.
Search for it. The evidence is there.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 May 08 - 04:17 PM

I hold no brief for the FLDS, but much of what you report comes from people with a grievance or little objectivity.

As I have stated, no clinical evidence of abuse at the Eldorado colony has been presented. It may be some months before the evidence is brought to court.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 01 May 08 - 04:44 PM

There have been previous trials.
I'll post more re evidence when I have time. - Alice
..........

In 2001, Dan Barlow Jr., son of the Colorado City mayor, was charged with 14 counts of sexual abuse, accused of repeatedly molesting his five daughters, ages 12 to 19, over several years. According to the police report, Barlow confessed to the crimes.

Barlow was allowed to plead guilty to a single, lesser charge of sexual abuse, and was sentenced to 120 days in jail — most of which was suspended. He served 13 days.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 01 May 08 - 05:09 PM

Q, regarding birth defects from consanguineous pedigree in the FLDS children.

Fumaric aciduria: Clinical and imaging features
Annals of Neurology
Volume 47, Issue 5, Date: May 2000, Pages: 583-588
John F. Kerrigan, Kirk A. Aleck, Theodore J. Tarby, C. Roger Bird, Randall A. Heidenreich
a PDF is available for registered users.
here

We describe the clinical and imaging features of this disease arising from a consanguineous pedigree in 8 patients in the southwestern United States. Thirteen patients have been previously described in the medical literature. Our patients presented with an early infantile encephalopathy with profound developmental retardation and hypotonia, and most experienced seizures. Previously unreported characteristics described here include structural brain malformations, dysmorphic facial features, and neonatal polycythemia.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 01 May 08 - 05:23 PM

From the UTAH ATTORNEY GENERAL, 2006:

LOS ANGELES TIMES May 12, 2006
Court records, undisclosed investigative reports and interviews by The [Los Angeles] Times over the last year show that church authorities flout state and federal laws and systematically deny rights and freedoms, especially to women and children.

"The fact that this has been going on all these years, and the fact that justice has not been there to protect women and children … from amazing civil rights violations — it is an embarrassment," said Utah Atty. Gen. Mark Shurtleff.

"I don't want to indict the states of Utah and Arizona, but mea culpa — we are responsible."

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 May 08 - 05:40 PM

As I stated, no clinical evidence of abuse at the Eldorado colony has been presented yet.

Thanks for the abstract of the article by Kerrigan et al. The article concerns children from the Jessop-Barlow line. A Time report puts the cases in layman's language and mentions Dr. Tarby.
It has not yet been reported how many at Eldorado had this lineage.

Tracing the polygamists Family Tree

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 01 May 08 - 06:11 PM

Q, the "Eldorado colony", actually Yearning for Zion Ranch near Eldorado, is populated by FLDS members who were moved to the property from the twin border FLDS communities of Hildale and Colorado City.
YFZ is populated by Jeffs-Barlow descendants who were moved there in the last few years, as the land was purchased in 2004, the buildings constructed, and the chosen members moved over from CC and Hildale.

I linked to an earlier article at the beginning of this thread on the discovery of the incidence of this genetic problem and linked to this
"Dr. Theodore Tarby, a pediatric neurologist who has treated some of the sect's affected residents, has been quoted as estimating the IQ of these patients as around 25."

I know the thread is long and there is a lot of info linked. Some of it is starting to be repeated, like my links to the fumarase deficiency information.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 01 May 08 - 08:23 PM

Canadian interview:
An audio interview with Daphne Bramham concerning the FLDS in Bountiful, BC (Canada), and the issue of child brides, lost boys, sexual abuse, physical abuse and other problems associated with the polygamous sect.
Connection to Texas.

Audio on youtube

click here

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 May 08 - 08:50 PM

Yes, all of this has been going round and round ad nauseum, but is only marginally useful with regard to Eldorado.

Does Jeffs have a defective transmittable gene?
Were any of the children taken into custody at San Angelo the birth products of the Barlow-Jessup defective genes?
Is there any proof that any of the Eldorado children were physically abused (other than legally defined as a result of polygamous activity involving underage females)?

Not until the cases get to court decision can the answers be determined.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 01 May 08 - 09:08 PM

Q, If you want to research specific FLDS sex offenders who have been convicted in Utah already, search the surnames of Barlow, Jeffs, Steed and Jessop,
the main founding fathers of FLDS. Almost everyone in FLDS has one of those surnames.
Some of those arrested in Utah or Arizona before the Texas raid have not yet gone to trial.
All you need is the last name to do a search.
The surname alone does NOT prove they are a member of FLDS.
But, Warren Jeffs and others are listed, click on their name for details. You can google for more info on their cases if you want to read about the evidence that led to convictions.

I am by no means saying all the people in Utah with that surname are FLDS.

Surname search of Utah sex offenders.
click here

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 01 May 08 - 09:39 PM

I disagree that most of this thread info "is only marginally useful with regard to Eldorado". The history of FLDS is directly related to what is happening at YFZ near Eldorado.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 01 May 08 - 10:18 PM

Alice you left out Stubbs and Holm

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 May 08 - 09:06 AM

Add Allred and LeBaron too.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 02 May 08 - 04:20 PM

More info I have received on some of the locations and approximate number of members living in communities.
Alice

-----------
Before the Purge of 2003/2004 5,000 to 6,000 in Colorado city. 2,000 to 3,000 in Hildale Utah. 1000 plus in Creston B.C. canada before the split up there! Winston Blackmore vs Jimmy Oler!

Winston took 2/3rds of the community when Warren booted him out. Winston had 26 wives including his first wife Jane. Jane divorced him and 3 or 4 took reassignments after Warren ordered them too. Janelle Thorton from the 1988 Johanson vs Fischer case was one who left without reassignment. So Winston has 19-21 unless he has taken more. He has 120 children, paid for by Canada Taxpayers.

In split Warren made Jimmy Oler the FLDS Bishop and about 1/3rd follow Jimmy. Maybe 1200 total there.

The ranch near Mancos Colorado 50-100 possibly

The Pringle South Dakota Ranch 100 possibly

Mexico 100-200 locations is debated, near 2 cities.

A rumored ranch in Oregon...

Loyal members in Las Vegas New Era Construction 100-200

In Mesquite Nevada 50-100 in the local Construction & a Truss Company.

YFZ was thought to have 600-800

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 May 08 - 04:27 PM

I thought this was well-put, esp. the part I have put in BOLD:

Richard Land, president of the Southern Baptist Ethics & Religious Liberties Commission, says that the very real need to protect children "does not give government officials a blank check to use children's "welfare" as a subterfuge to justify governmental intrusion or to disrupt any practice it finds vaguely weird."

Some fear the FLDS case presages a time when children will be removed from their homes – not on proof of abuse – but because of their parents' staunchly religious views. According to Land, however, the mixed blessing of the recent scandal in Texas is that the actions taken there were well-founded: "The potential for governmental abuse of religious freedom is just that — potential. The evidence for sexual abuse of children in this case is substantial."

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Emma B
Date: 03 May 08 - 06:58 AM

The view from the Canadian Globe and mail

WEEKEND SPECIAL: POLYGAMY'S UNDERGROUND RAILROAD

Where 'the handsome ones go to the leaders'

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 03 May 08 - 10:53 PM

http://rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy507.html

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 03 May 08 - 10:57 PM

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:4fVEJkfe2tcJ:blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/labels/UEP.htm+United+Effort+Plan+Trust+2007&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 May 08 - 10:57 PM

If you haven't read Carolyn Jessops' book 'Escape' you should. Please, read it.

If you read it and don't weep, there is something seriously wrong with you.

I will grant that perhaps not ALL Mormon men are like her husband Merrill, but a hell of a lot are.

Read it and weep. For all the people male, female, adult and child, who are caught in this horrendous cult of abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 04 May 08 - 11:46 AM

In a nutshell:

FLDS is trafficing young girls across international borders.

They are coupled with older men in 'spritual' marriages' which are arranged by their 'prophet'.

They become one of many sister-wives.

Once a child is born they apply to the govt. for social assistance.

The social assistance money is pooled into a 'trust' to be used communally.

Babies are buried without govt. oversight.

Schools (which are funded by the govt.) teach racism and do not adhere to standard curriculum.

The boys are used as free labour and are seen by older men as competition so they must leave the cult to make it on their own without adequate skills and training.

I hope the courts will finally act on this and make the leaders (including Winston Blackmore) accountable. These men have been allowed to victimize women and children for a very long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 04 May 08 - 12:31 PM

Updated interview of Carolyn Jessop:
"this society created Warren Jeffs" it is just a matter of time where one of the other men will step in and continue his tyranny.
The state of Utah has no laws to require that the children be educated. When Jeffs had them pull children out of public school in 2000, their only education was the Jeffs doctrine school. Now for two years, that school has been closed and the children are getting no education.
She is talking about the Colorado City town where we are trying to help open a public library. See the banned books thread if you want to help.
Her interview
Escape author interview

"There are no limits if a man has received divine revelation from god" to discipline in however he wants, there are no limits to the abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 04 May 08 - 12:35 PM

"one day he [Warren Jeffs] decided that all the dogs in the community be destroyed"
and he sent men around the community to
round up all the dogs and they took them out and shot them.
I would get up in the morning and wonder what freedom we would lose that day" "the society was spiraling in a direction that was very dangerous"
Carolyn Jessop, from the youtube interview, April 23

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 04 May 08 - 01:34 PM

The number 1-877-GET-A-DAD on the microphone at the gathering of Lost Boys speaking about being cast out of FLDS I referred to earlier. The rally was outside on steps, part of it shown in the movie Banking on Heaven.

Lost Boys mentoring

"These are just a few of the boys who've been told to leave or left on their own," Steed said. "Many had nowhere to go, no food to eat. Some of them were kicked out with nothing more than the clothes on their backs and with the understanding they would be destroyed [by God]."

The boys have been exploited, victimized and discarded, deprived of basic educations and threatened with eternal damnation, Fischer said.

"These boys and young men need America's help," said Fischer, a former FLDS member who has formed the nonprofit Diversity Foundation to help the boys get schooling and even college educations.

"The boys need dads. I want very much to rally support."

Among those already joining the cause as mentors: Jon Krakauer, author of Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith, and Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 04 May 08 - 01:39 PM

How to help
• Call 1-877-GET-A-DAD
• Or send a donation to the Diversity Foundation, care of Lynette Phillips, 505 W. 10200 South, South Jordan, UT, 84095

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 04 May 08 - 03:40 PM

According to the latest update that the Department of Family and Protective Services (DFPS) provided to the Senate Health and Human Services Committee, two boys in state custody turned 18 and have chosen to stay in state's care and based on interviews with the children, the Child Protective Services has reason to believe that some of the children in their care, "do not have parents at the Eldorado ranch."

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Penny S.
Date: 04 May 08 - 05:28 PM

I have heard, but cannot find the source to link to, a speaker on the BBC link this case with that of the Austrian father who imprisoned his daughter, his wife being kept ignorant and being brought up to be obedient and unquestioning. The speaker claimed that these were the extreme result of religious teaching that women were to be subservient to men. I find that C S Lewis taught this, and know of a fellowship church which emphasises the headship of man over woman, and women's duty to be in obedience to a man. It was more worrying in the case of the Exclusive Brethren who we had attending our school until they were withdrawn under the "Spirit led" guidance of a patriarchal leader. He is now dead and there seems to be more liberty about.

Where these views are tolerated in those who do not go to the extreme, it makes it more possible for these silverbacks to behave like the apes they would deny being related to. After all, it is a matter of faith, and who can question faith, even when its fruit is clearly poisonous.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 05 May 08 - 12:34 AM

The plot thickens...

http://www.canada.com/national/features/crime_report/story.html?id=182bb602-eee0-40ab-adca-f1786129d6a7

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 May 08 - 12:51 AM

dianavan, that was from 2005, do you know of any updates about Blackmore, et alia? Pretty incredible how much money is involved and the intricate weaving of it all!

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 05 May 08 - 01:34 AM

We have known about Blackmore, his many companies and his ability to 'bleed the beast' since 2005. This man and his family make their living as 'system abusers'. Not only were they able to lease Crown land, they contaminated it with chromated copper arsenate (CCA). Since he and his brothers and sisters had to forfeit some of their land and businesses (unpaid taxes), Kootenay Wood Preservers is one of the business he had to let go. Now the Crown is responsible for cleaning up the environment he polluted. Neat trick.

He also receives $342,140 from the Provincial Government for his private school that teaches racism and fear of the outside world. I am still curious about how much each of those single moms receive from social assistance.

I do know that the only thing the govt. has been able to do, so far, is to make him forfeit land and assets as a result of unpaid taxes. Blackmore has been trying to take over the financial holdings and power void left by Jeffs who is now in prison. He was a police informant when they arrested Jeffs. He fully co-operated (in exchange for what?) with law enforcement. It makes you wonder if he had anything to do with the anonymous phone call which resulted in the Eldorado raid.

Blackmore is the biggest swindler of all and a real 'teflon' man. It will be very difficult to prosecute him for anything, even if he does have over 100 children. When interviewed, he comes across as completely arrogant and always has a smirk on his face. He truly believes he is omnipotent.

I'm sure that Wally Oppal (Attorney General) would like to see him rot in prison and will do whatever he can do. Unfortunately, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms probably protects the scumbag. The only thing the B.C. govt. can do is put the screws to him financially. He's desperate to hold on to his millions and right now he needs Jeff's followers and their property to sustain his power and his financial holdings.

This man is pure evil. It has nothing to do with religion. It has all to do with social pathology and the exploitation of others.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 May 08 - 11:57 AM

Thanks for the further info. Just having 100 children of one's own smacks of the height of arrogance, imo. He must be a real piece of work. I hope the government is successful. Is he one they might get for smuggling underage girls into and out of the country?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 05 May 08 - 05:59 PM

From the HOPE Organization web site (see Banned Books thread).
This is part of the life story written by Brian Mackert.
http://www.childbrides.org/brian_mackert.html

My father was a control freak. He would not allow us to call him Dad. We had to call him by the more respectful term, Father. Also, if you needed anything, you had to have his approval or you couldn't have it. This applied to everything, including clothes. I still remember Mom taking hand-me-down clothes from my older brother Ken and putting them in father's study with my name written on a piece of paper. They stayed there until Father decided that I was worthy to have them. At age 12, I remember wishing for a guitar and hoping that one day Father would change his mind about my having one. My brothers, Steve and Ken, both had guitars, but Father, for an unknown reason, wouldn't allow me to have one. In an act of rebellion, my mother found an old six-string classical guitar at a second-hand store (only ten bucks) and she bought it for me with money she had been putting away for the day she would leave Father. She warned me to never play it where others could hear me practice and to hide it, especially from Father. I remember one day after school I was playing my guitar when my father came home for some unexpected reason and burst into my room and asked where the guitar came from. He took my guitar from me and put it in his study for three months. It stayed there until at a home evening I played a song on Steven's guitar, and Father was so pleased with my playing that he gave me the guitar back. I only relate this so you can understand the degree of control my father exercised on his family. In his opinion, he was teaching us where our blessing came from. And the correct answer wasn't God.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 05 May 08 - 09:25 PM

Sounds like a lot of pre-21st century dads ...

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 05 May 08 - 10:10 PM

Prophet Jeffs on Suicide Watch
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 05/05/2008 02:48:08 PM MDT

Posted: 12:25 PM- FLDS prophet Warren Jeffs has been placed under suicide watch in Arizona, where he awaits trial on charges of criminal incest and sexual assault.
    The Fort Worth (Texas) Star-Telegram reports that Jeffs is described as emaciated as he waits, 23 hours a day and alone, in his cell.
    The 52-year-old Jeffs, head of the polygamous Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, earlier was convicted of rape-as-an-accomplice in Utah.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 May 08 - 10:50 PM

If Warren Jeffs does manage to become a 'martyr' then all Hell is going to break loose. I don't think it will be 'pretty' either. Too many people truly believe he is The Prophet, or even the Christ.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 05 May 08 - 11:45 PM

I dunno, Sorcha. It seems those 3 or 8 thousand people are more of a danger to themselves than others. They very much want to be left alone, which is how they ended up on the Arizona strip. Plus Warren Jeffs was such a nut there was a huge split when he took hold of God's hotline. For the remaining, it might strengthen their beliefs and sense of community. (Actually it might demoralize them further - Rulon Jeffs wasn't supposed to die before the Apocalypse, so neither is Warren. Suicide??) And the money will be running dry.

The survival of this religion, and its LDS (apostate) brethren, seems to have primarily survived and prospered on the basis of outside oppression. Hundreds of similar all-American churches sprung up in the mid 1800s, but this group, born into and living with constant animosity, was the only one to live on. No violence from them that I know of, since the days of the wild west.

On the lighter side: Have you heard Mitt Romney's list of the top ten reasons he dropped out? Very, very funny. Reason ten was "I thought there were a lot more Osmonds than there actually are." Reason number one was "Our campaign strategy was fundamentally flawed. We thought 'As Utah goes, so goes the nation'."

I can't find it on the web, but you can hear it here:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89732490

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 06 May 08 - 10:29 AM

heric "No violence from them that I know of, since the days of the wild west." You mean no violence toward non-members? And days of wild west were when? I think Sorcha may have meant all hell breaking loose within the group of men. There will be a power struggle for control. Rulon Allred was murdered in 1977 by order of Ervil LeBaron.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ervil_LeBaron
click
The fundamentalist groups are connected by related families and from being part of the pioneer mormom migration to begin with, even though they broke off into splinter communities.
LeBaron is known as the mormon "Charles Manson". The violence and murder was rather recent.

"While in prison, LeBaron continued to order his remaining followers to murder his opponents, including some of his wives and children. It has estimated that upwards of 25 people were killed as result of LeBaron's prison-cell orders. Many of his family members and other ex-members of the group still remain in hiding for fear of retribution from LeBaron's remaining followers. Before his death, he reportedly wrote a 400 page "bible" (The Book of the New Covenants) which included a commandment to kill disobedient church members."

LeBaron was in a rival polygamous group to Warren Jeff's, but the Jeff's followers are loyal enough to break the law at command. Blood atonement is still part of the doctrine of FLDS. See earlier reference to the death of the rock climber who dared to leave FLDS.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 06 May 08 - 11:02 AM

Oh, my. I knew nothing about Uncle Ervil.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 06 May 08 - 11:38 AM

aargh I've searched the page for "rock" "climber" "leave" "left" and "killed" but I can't find it. . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 06 May 08 - 04:40 PM

Sorry, heric, it was one of the early testimonies of ex members.... someone talking about their brother, I think, and the blood atonement done to him. Rock climbing made to look like an accident.
I'd have to search for it, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 06 May 08 - 11:14 PM

A pdf file can be viewed or downloaded from the current Eldorado Success newspaper site, Bishop's List.
It is 45 forms pages, one for each man on in the YFZ Ranch, listing his name, age, residence, and wives and children's names, age, residence. The Ranch is called R17. on the form.
Some children and wives are listed as "elsewhere" for residence.
Some are listed as residing in Short Creek or Hildale, Colorado City, a few Idaho.
Next to one wife, Alice Marie Jessop, it says "hiding".
"House of hiding" is listed next to another wife and daughter.
If you can't find the document, PM me and I'll email the pdf to you.


click

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: bankley
Date: 07 May 08 - 07:37 AM

"Bigamy is having one wife too many,,,,, so is monagamy"

                               Oscar Wilde

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 May 08 - 09:13 AM

Who was it that defined "monotony" as being married to only one person for your whole life?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 May 08 - 09:49 AM

and "bigatony" as the guy you don't want to mess with?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 May 08 - 09:54 AM

Alice that pdf is amazing. I just scanned it quickly, but saw several "wives" listed at 16 years of age. And, it gave me chills to see a 4 month old and 1 year, both listed as "elsewhere" for where they lived.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 May 08 - 12:44 PM

"With evidence sorted and the State Attorney General's office called in to help, the prosecution of the historic YFZ child-abuse case needs just one thing- a suspect.
"In the end, there will likely be one or more of those, one of the case's lead prosecutors said Tuesday."

Or the case could slowly die in an expensive bout of legal moves and countermoves.

Story in San Angelo Standard-Times
May 07, 2008

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 07 May 08 - 02:31 PM

I don't think they will ever be able to enforce bigamy or polygamy laws and that they should focus on other crimes such as fraud, tax evasion and child abuse. I do think, however, that there are other religions that allow multiple wives and that if the FLDS is allowed to continue the practice, others will follow.

I'm not sure what this says about the rights of women or the rights of children. I think there are probably wives who would welcome sharing the tasks of child rearing and housework. Plural wives, in some situations, might seem a viable option for some marriages. Personally, I do not have a problem with freedom of choice but I do have a problem with children being isolated from the outside world and groomed for polygamy. That is no choice at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 May 08 - 10:54 PM

Here's a few of the stats they found in the records released to which Alice provided a link:

The records, released by court officials last week, include 37 families totaling 507 individuals. At the time the lists were written from March through August of 2007, most of the people were living at the YFZ Ranch, though others were in homes along the Utah-Arizona line.

Two-thirds of listed households were polygamous, with the brothers of Jeffs and a senior elder claiming the most wives, up to 21 in one case.

Men still in their 20s made up most of the dozen monogamous marriages.

The husbands and wives were married in the FLDS, and none is believed to hold Texas marriage licenses.

Of the 19 youths listed as being 16 or 17, none of the boys are husbands, while nine of the girls are listed as wives. Only one 17-year-old girl remained unmarried.

Under Texas law, children under the age of 17 generally cannot consent to sex with an adult.

The young men in monogamous marriages will likely seek additional wives as they age, Bistline[a former member] said.

"A man has to have at least three wives to get to the highest degree of heaven," he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Rumncoke
Date: 09 May 08 - 01:04 AM

I heard an interview with Carolyn Jessop on the BBC World Service radio earlier today, and it really was quite sickening to hear how the women and children were treated - but I can't see how the cult leadership can be regarded as criminals - they are mentally ill and should be locked up for their own good, or perhaps they should be executed so as to rid the world of something for which there is no cure and no hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Penny S.
Date: 09 May 08 - 02:50 AM

Rumncoke, could you put a name to the programme, so it can be found on the web page, please?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Emma B
Date: 09 May 08 - 06:14 AM

The World Service interview with Carolyn Jessop was broadcast as part of the World Service Outlook programme.

This
link may get you there

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 12 May 08 - 09:10 PM

A new You Tube posted by fincenMIB today, of the mental hospital where "disobedient" wives were sent, in Flagstaff, Arizona. The FLDS had its own doctor who would commit these women to institutions.
I wonder how many of them are still in there.

-----------------
fincenMIB
Its a game of welfare fraud, medical fraud and other abuses. The Guidance Center in Northern Arizona turned unruly FLDS women into Mental Patients, with your and my TAX DOLLARS. Opposing the religion and the priesthood leadership was enough to be considered crazy, if you are FLDS.

click, video of the mental hospital location no sound

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 13 May 08 - 12:59 PM

I'm glad you resurrected this thread.

I believe that polygamy is the least of the offences committed by the FLDS. How they controlled their members for so long and the system abuses they committed at taxpayer expense, is at the heart of the matter.

This is the first I have heard about disobedient, FLDS women being committed to mental hospitals. Do you have another source?

btw - There is also information coming forward about how the children are being cared for by child protective services. It doesn't sound good. These women and children are truly suffering the emotional pain of separation. It seems like the raid took place without much thought as to how they would care for the victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Emma B
Date: 13 May 08 - 01:32 PM

'worn affidavits of FLDS women have accused law enforcement of illegally transporting them to mental facilities without due process.
The affidavits were submitted as part of an Arizona state inquiry into local police practices.

In one instance described under oath, a woman fleeing her abusive husband was picked up by the local sheriff's deputy, an FLDS member, and taken to a hospital in Utah.
According to the affidavit, the deputy called the prophet,
not his law enforcement superiors, and was directed to a Provo, Utah, mental facility.

Other women said they were taken by police to the Guidance Center, a mental hospital in Flagstaff, Ariz.'

From
Where Few Dare to Disobey Los Angeles Times/May 13, 2006

April 25, 2008. Alternet -
'..this misuse of mental health care has turned into one non-obvious but critically important cultural land mine for the Texas authorities who are trying to figure out how to deal with their FLDS wards. Along with everything else, they're trying to work with women who've learned to see mental health evaluations as tantamount to an incarceration threat -- are thus predisposed to regard gentile doctors or social workers as a mortal enemy. It's not making things easier.'


Laurene Jessop ended up there after brawling with a "sister wife" who she said had tried to strangle her daughter. Their husband summoned the police. Two Colorado City officers arrived, handcuffed Laurene Jessop and took her in a police car to the Guidance Center, she said.

The clinic's discharge summary, obtained by The Times, said Laurene Jessop suffered post-traumatic stress syndrome stemming from childhood sexual abuse. It said she also suffered stress in her relations with sister wives, and proposed that she seek couple's counseling with Warren Jeffs.

A Guidance Center spokeswoman declined to discuss any cases. "Our facility is not allowed to release any information about clients or their care," said Susan Nelson, outpatient clinical director.

....Absolute obedience is the cornerstone of the faith and is endlessly preached.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Emma B
Date: 13 May 08 - 01:42 PM

Sorry one quote got out of sequence there - could be because, as I've just found out, my herbal cough balsam is suprisingly alcoholic :)

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 13 May 08 - 07:13 PM

" . . . seek couple's counseling with Warren Jeffs."

What a line!

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 13 May 08 - 08:58 PM

Wow Emma - That was an amazing article you linked.

"...every time you think you've heard it all, you hear something new."

That just about sums it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 May 08 - 10:41 PM

"My best friend got married at 14. Her husband … started getting on me. I went to my parents; big mistake…. The prophet Leroy Johnson decided I should marry [the abuser]," Petersen recalled. "I'd be his fifth wife and he was 48."

Petersen said if molesters were caught with a girl, the abusers were often told to marry the victims.

Unwilling to marry at 14, Petersen ran away to Las Vegas but never really escaped. She learned that her 12-year-old sister had married 39-year-old Colorado City polygamist William Orson Black Jr.

Petersen tried to intervene. By the time she persuaded authorities to raid Black's house, he had fled with her sister to Mexico. He remains a fugitive.

What sick bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 May 08 - 06:26 PM

So- The kids must be returned.
Third Court of Appeals rules that the 51st District Court of Judge Barbara Walther "abused its discretion" by relying on "legally and factually insufficient" evidence to maintain custody of children whose parents are members of the FCJCLDS.

The Child Protective Services have ten days to follow the court's order to release the children. The agency may appeal, but it is doubtful that they have the evidence needed to succeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 May 08 - 06:36 PM

Costs to the state of Texas already in the millions. Buses alone have cost about $1.1 million. The projected cost has been estimated at $30 million for the first year. That is cut short, but some $10 millions will have been spent if the case is terminated now.
Article "Cost of Sect Case ..." at www.gosanangelo.com

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Melissa
Date: 22 May 08 - 06:57 PM

Don't birth certificates have fingerprints or footprint or something on them?
Wouldn't that have been an easier (cheaper) way to match children to names to parents?

I type death certificates, but I guess I've never looked very closely at a birth cert.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 May 08 - 07:20 PM

It strikes me that this is another case of initiation with no exit strategy.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 May 08 - 07:32 PM

Melissa, how would foot prints or fingerprints indicate parentage? I'm missing something?

What I read said it only applied to the mothers who had filed an appeal:

The decision applies only to the children of the 38 women involved in challenging the removal, but their lawyers said in a televised press conference that they believe it will also apply to other children. None of the women in the case had daughters who had become pregnant while minors.

I'd rather they made an error than not have acted on something which could have been of immediate and serious danger. As it is, I hope they have some sort of ability to monitor the young girls concerning marriage and bearing children when under age. Those girls MAY be feeling a huge betrayal on the part of the state and courts if they have had enough time to learn what life can be like without being promised as a child bride to some guy twice or more their age and having baby after baby. I hope if they are given the option of NOT going back.

It's a sad situation all round.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Melissa
Date: 22 May 08 - 08:04 PM

? I think if there were fingerprints on the certificates...and the certificates have the parents names...and the children still have their fingers, it could be checked like they do for criminals?

I don't know anything about birth certificates, really..just thought it might have been an easy way to match children to their mothers when that was what they were trying to do?

Besides, checking the certificates (didn't I read in some of the links that they do their own certificates on site?) and finding errors would have given something to chase IF they wanted to make a tangle to keep the investigation open.

It really doesn't have anything to do with anything, I was just sort of wondering and figured somebody here would know what's on birth certificates. If they have babyfingerprints on them, it just seems logical (to me) for that to have been a resource to consider trying.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 May 08 - 08:42 PM

Older certificates have only words. Each state would have different requirements- one would have to look them up.
Some hospitals take footprints, etc., but this is not part of the birth certificate as far as I know.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Bobert
Date: 22 May 08 - 08:55 PM

I've stayed outta this thread since being accused of supporting rapists for my questions about folks living differently... Do I support 14 year old girls being impregnated by older men??? No, I don't...

...and it seesm that alot of the reporting about such was just media hysteria...

Hey, folks, Texas went too far here...

If there was a criminal in that group then Texas had every right to take him out to face charges...

This reminds me of just how we got into Iraq... Saddam was a bad man so let kill off a million of his countrymen???

WTF????

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 May 08 - 09:18 PM

Something is seriously wrong in the State of Texas.

As someone who was raised as an agnostic I find it difficult to empathize with religious cults, or even mainstream religions. But I also don't like to see religious groups unjustly prosecuted by the state. Yet I'm hardly in favor of older adults taking advantage of young teenaged girls as marriage partners. That's all very complicated to sort out and in this case in Texas I think the State has the burden of coming up with more convincing evidence for their action against this cult. I wish them well but fail to see why they were not able to successfully defend their action at the Court of Appeals.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 22 May 08 - 09:33 PM

http://www.3rdcoa.courts.state.tx.us/opinions/htmlopinion.asp?OpinionId=16865

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 22 May 08 - 11:32 PM

I think this says more about insufficient evidence than it does about the innocence of the FLDS.

Yes, its very much like the invasion of Iraq. Abuse of power and no concern for the eventual consequences, esp. emotional trauma. This is a classis example of victimizing the victims.

I still think the investigation should focus on mis-use of govt. funds, tax evasion, inappropriate schooling and human trafficing. Instead, Texas focussed on polygamy, underage marriage and unfounded allegations of abuse. Seems they have paved the way for plural marriages in general. Way to go, Texas!

What were they thinking?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 May 08 - 11:51 PM

Thanks, Melissa. I was just wondering if you knew something about them that I didn't. My children's and my birth certificates have our footprints on them, but I think it would be difficult to look at an older child's foot to see if there is a match and I understand the FLDS mixed theirs up, anyway. It seems to me, DNA testing would be the only way to be sure.

I wonder at some of you. Have any of you followed the links, listened to the women who have escaped this cult? Maybe Texas based their actions on too little evidence, but there still needs to be some reckoning/monitoring to make sure they are NOT violating human rights, esp. of their children.

At least this has brought their lifestyles, etc. to light and I hope will make law enforcement more vigilant, esp. state governments which regulate such things as schooling, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Melissa
Date: 23 May 08 - 01:19 AM

I'm not sure it brought much of the lifestyle out in the air, Kat.
With the focus being just the polygamy bit, it sort of lights it as if the whole thing was Texas Authorities flying off the handle to persecute a peaceful, self-contained community.

The ones of us who have an understanding of how little it takes to diminish someone into submission..and how horrible it is to be completely under a thumb--defeated, dehumanized and hopeless..have an easy grasp of the idea that there's probably more to it than a bunch of women sharing responsibilities and raising children together.

Others will see it as another mess where Official Bullies rampaged a peaceful community that was simply trying to live peacefully and self-contained. From some perspectives, the whole thing is just going to look like harrassment--and harrassment is wrong.

I know I'll never know whether it's coincidental or not, but I halfway think maybe the Texas situation bought my hometown a respite from a (non-polygamic) ugly mess. I have spent the last several years with open ears/eyes in an attempt to Be Prepared for a shitstorm that was obviously finally coming and I do not believe the Splinter Group line.
I am convinced that when a group falls, they fall alone..but when it's time for them to get back up, they're not on their own.

So, that's my rambloid on the topic..I appreciate the links that have been posted in this thread and I shall now traipse back into the underbrush for a while.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Emma B
Date: 23 May 08 - 08:41 AM

'Texas' child-welfare authorities have no choice but to bow gracefully to a unanimous ruling by a state appeals court that it overstepped its bounds in separating the cult's nearly 500 children from their parents.'

Because Texas did not, in this case, have immediate evidence meeting the legal standard for child abuse does not mean that abuse is not taking place. It does not mean these people should be left alone to do as they please for another 50 years

I don't want Texas to be the place where these people find a haven. What they are doing to their women, their children, the unwanted castoff boys who are run off to maintain a generous pool of "wives" for a few favored men - is an abomination.

OK, the state did not make its case.

Well, the United States government could not make a murder case stick to Al Capone. In the end, they got him on tax evation. The point is, it didn't stop trying'

from yesterdays Dallas Morning News

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:22 AM

Yes, Emma! That's what I've been trying to say. Thanks for posting that.

Melissa, thank you, too. I think you summed it up well.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:43 AM

You know, we keep saying 'polygamy', but as a legal term this is not polygamy. As I understand it, FDLS bowed to US law when they iniated having only ONE legal wife- a marriage registered with the state - and calling all of the others 'sister wives'.

A state does not regulate who is sleeping with whom or having children 'out of wedlock'. And distasteful- and expensive - as it is, going on public welfare as a single mother is not illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 May 08 - 05:28 PM

CPS has asked the Texas Supreme Court to overturn the decision of the Third Court of Appeals. They will probably give a ruling soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 23 May 08 - 05:28 PM

I'm not sure why so many lawyers and pundits are saying this ruling is a death knell for the entire project. It is undisputed that unmarried minors gave birth. The big deal is that the appellate court said you cannot treat the entire compound as a single household.

The media would have us believe, and I believe, that the men, womern and children had been trained to lie about their family relationships and circumstances. Even if you do not choose to believe or suspect that, the next question is whether the individual "families" or "households" within the compound will be shielded from public scrutiny by the community. That can not be the law.

The appellate court may have wisely restricted an overly broad brush stroke, but now the agencies have been left without guidance with such a short and cryptic ruling. I hope they do not give up. Child welfare and oversight is a public responsibility founded in basic morality, and backed up by statutes and regulations.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 23 May 08 - 05:41 PM

One thing (among many) that the ruling did not mention AT ALL, was the report that children lived there without biological parents. They didn't mention it because it was not relevant to the issues of the appellants before them. Many of the other reported but unknown circumstances did not come before these justices, or were presented but ignored as to these appellants. Many of those facts should, however, be relevant to determining the scope of a "single household." The proof is not there yet, and it is understandable that its release might be hindered.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 May 08 - 05:48 PM

How does one accomplish not having biological parents?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 May 08 - 05:56 PM

Ebbie, I think he forgot to put 'in residence at the compound'. It is thought that some of the children were taken (possibly forcefully) from their biological parents and moved to the YFZ ranch without them. (And then possibly 'reassinged' to other parents possibly because their biological parents weren't 'worthy' enough)

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 May 08 - 07:12 PM

Hmmmm. That's the first time I have heard that allegation.

Thanks, Sorcha.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 May 08 - 07:20 PM

There has been mention made of it, somewhere in this thread, Ebbie, or at one of the many links. Some of the children may have been brought from Canada according to some reports.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 May 08 - 08:03 PM

"Undisputed that unmarried minors gave birth." No proof of that.
One child may have been from Canada. No proof yet.

The DNA tests may now be inadmissible.

In the Appeals Court decision, the court ruled "The department failed to carry its burden with respect to the requirements." ...The danger must be to the physical health or safety of the child. The department did not present any evidence of danger to the physical health or safety of any male children, or any female children who had not reached puberty."
The agency presented no evidence other than alleged sect religious beliefs as evidence for removing the children, the justices wrote, and failed to supply any examples of how such belief endanger young children.

Moreover, half of the mothers put in foster care by CPS have now been declared adults, and the remainder have not been reported on as yet. One girl age 14 listed as an unwed mother now is conceded to be not pregnant and has not been a mother.
www.gosanangelo.com

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 23 May 08 - 09:37 PM

This is a case study in how people can read a short list and then conve what they perceived. Q gave his highlights immediately above, wheraas I saw:

"There was no evidence that any of the female children >>**other than**<< the five identified as having become pregnant between the ages of fifteen and seventeen were victims or potential victims of sexual or other physical abuse"

Q you are right: The agencies didn't prove, YET, that those girls were NOT LEGALLY MARRIED!!! Maybe they were all legally married.

Wagers?

Inadmissibility of DNA is what? Good for the community leaders' privacy rights? Freedom from State oppression? Good forthe children's rights?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 23 May 08 - 09:50 PM

It does seem probable, though, that the list of evidence was drawn from the entire pool of children, given that the five impregnated minors 15-17 could not have been children of any of the thirty-eight appellants. So the rumour of children not having biological parents present is probably false. All of the incendiary rumors (I can't think of the others) should have made that list.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:06 PM

One more thing to notice - The evidence of potential harm made no mention of Warren Jeffs and his conviction, or the Barlow boy's conviction, or any of the intrigue from Colorado City - far afield. With checks and balances, it appears that impartial justice is winning the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Melissa
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:08 PM

Didn't I read in a recent link (heric's, I think) that it's not illegal for teenagers to get pregnant?

Wherever I read it, it struck me as an odd thing to say.

I also noticed that the focus was entirely on physical harm..released the children because there was no evidence of immediate physical danger. Maybe they were leaving a way to get back in with an argument of mental danger/abuse for the brainwashing?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:08 PM

No concrete evidence presented of "five impregnated minors 15-17." The CPS has not presented any evidence for this allegation.
The CPS has not made any criminal charges. If they have evience, I presume that the charges will be made.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:13 PM

Melissa: Yes, it is in footnote seven of the decision: "Under Texas law, it is not sexual assault to have consensual sexual intercourse with a minor spouse to whom one is legally married. . . . Texas law allows minors to marry--as young as age sixteen with parental consent and younger than sixteen if pursuant to court order."

Q: I am not finding that "no concrete evidence" phrase.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Melissa
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:34 PM

Maybe it was this part:
"•The Department conceded at the hearing that teenage pregnancy, by itself, is not a reason to remove children from their home and parents, but took the position that immediate removal was necessary in this case because "there is a mindset that even the young girls report that they will marry at whatever age, and that it's the highest blessing they can have to have children."
(heric's link)

but I really thought I read a sentence that had 'teenage pregnancy' and something like 'not illegal'. It caught my eye because being impregnated and doing the impregnating are not the same.

Q: I'd like to see your link if you remember where you found the stuff you're talking about..looks like a different perspective, maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:41 PM

It is easier to understand both the ruling and the case that was being pursued if you read the judge's ruling that Heric so thoughtfully linked to above.

It explains the law that allows the state to remove children from a home, it explains what criteria the state must meet in order to remove children, and it is very specific about how the state failed to meet the criteria.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Melissa
Date: 23 May 08 - 11:05 PM

M Ted:
If that's directed toward me, I DID read the link..more than once.
In fact, I'm pretty sure a majority of the posters on this thread have read nearly every link that's been given.

I don't see that there's anything wrong or unhealthy in continuing to Think and Discuss the topic. The judge's decision leaves a lot of questions unanswered and untouched. It is a Judge's Decision. Only that. It's not the last word OR the only word on the subject. It is a step in the process.

Yes, it's a good and informative link.
It is not the Chalice of Understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 May 08 - 12:20 AM

heric is reading the allegations made by CPS as fact. None has been proven, or even brought into court.

My source is the San Angelo daily newspaper website, Go San Angelo, which has a good search system for past articles. The website, which I post, is San Angelo

That 14-year old unwed mother allegation- as I posted above, she is not pregnant according to testimony by her attorney in court.

Quotes from the article, "Sect parents, attorneys overjoyed at court ruling against state," May 22, San Angelo newspaper website.
"Regarding the alleged underage mothers, attorneys for CPS have been conceding, one by one, tyhat many of the mothers authorities cited as evidence that the sect committed widespread sexual abuse of girls are actually adults."
" They had admitted by midday today that 15 of the 31 mothers listed as underage are adults; one is actually 27. A few are as young as 18, but many are at least 20."
"Another girl listed as an underage mother is 14, but her attorney said in court she is not pregnant and does not have a child."

"More mothers listed as underage are likely to be reclassified as adults in coming days"
This article is easily found by putting FLDS, underage, in the Site Search blank. All other articles concerning 'underage' also are listed.

Until there is a prosecution in court, the CPS allegations are only that- allegations.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 24 May 08 - 12:50 AM

No, I'm not. (I'm right here, btw). I am quoting the facts accepted by the Court of Appeal:

"In addition, the record demonstrates the following facts, which are undisputed by the Department: . . . "

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 24 May 08 - 01:16 AM

oops the quote I used was from just above that line. However, the court cited it as evidence that the Department relied upon, having no cavil with it. If disputed, it would have said so. Also, the footnote on that point says "This number has fluctuated. It will likely continue to fluctuate somewhat as disputes regarding the age of certain persons taken into custody are resolved."

So we are both right in reading this stuff, differently. Interesting how that works.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:39 AM

Guy Choate, a lawyer who worked on behalf of the State Bar of Texas to find legal representation for children at the ranch, as well as some of the parents, said he was disturbed by the breadth of both the state's action and by the court's ruling -- though he sympathized with both. . . . .

"They were looking at it thinking, 'We may never get another shot to go in there, and this is just unacceptable,'" said Mr. Choate.

He described the appellate court's decision to send all the children back to the ranch as "awfully broad." The question left amid all the legal maneuvering: "What do we do about what I think everybody agrees and acknowledges are problems with underage child sexual abuse?"

The answer remains unclear. Shelly Greco, a Dallas lawyer representing two children involved in Thursday's court ruling, speculated that even if the court's decision is backed up by the state supreme court, Texas authorities would be able to retain custody of at least the children for whom they had the strongest evidence of abuse.

"I think the state will be able to present specific evidence that should have presented before, and keep those children," Ms. Greco said. If not, she said, she would be "concerned."

Other lawyers disagree. Amanda Chisholm, a lawyer for Texas RioGrande Legal Aid, an organization representing the 38 mothers who were the subject of Thursday's court opinion, said she thinks the ruling means all children must be returned to the ranch.
-------------------------------

The same article in the Wall St. Journal says that the State agreed to return 12 children while the appeal marches on. But there are 38 mother-appellants. (I wonder why there were no father-appellants.)

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 May 08 - 12:37 PM

CPS 'evidence' presented at the 3rd Court of Appeals are their allegations. These were acted upon by Judge Walther, who was asked to vacate her decision by the Appellate Court.

Until criminal prosecutions are brought forward, the CPS allegations are no more than that.

A further ruling on the legality of the State's custody of the children may be made by Tuesday by the Texas Supreme Court, which has sent for the trial record from the 3rd Court of Appeals.
"Texas Supreme Court spokesman Osler McCarthy said he expects the Court to act on this emergency relief request "fairly quickly.""
"They could do it in briefs, they could hold a haring or they could deny it," McCarthy said. "All three are possibilities."
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/24/case-goes-to-highest-court/
Several related stories at that newspaper site.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 May 08 - 12:46 PM

Full copies of the briefs presented to the Supreme Court of Texas, for and against relief, are available from the link above, as related links.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 24 May 08 - 01:54 PM

They are not allegations that have been proven beyond all reasonable doubt, but they are allegations that were the subject of numerous adversarial hearings where the community was allowed, through counsel, to present evidence to dispute or refute them, in order to prevent any of several orders, including the one in question. Most or all of these orders must have required findings of fact to justify the resulting orders.

And I was right the first time, the Court of Appeal does list the five impregnated minors as a *fact* evidencing "sexual abuse* demonstrated from the record.

The decision further identifies the pregancies of twenty girls from thirteen through seventeen as a *fact,* (subject to adjustment), but not proven as *sexual abuse* because they may have been maried at the time they were impregnated - a failure to prove a negative on a longshot defense.

These are factual findings by a court, not allegations.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 May 08 - 02:25 PM

Of those under 18 years old girls, I wonder how many of them were married in the eyes of the law or if they were just what the FLDS call "sister wives?" Seems that would make a difference as to whether the "husbands" could be charged with statutory rape or other crimes of that nature.

One only has to look at their own census records which Alice provided a link to, to see how many "wives" are listed under the age of 18.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 May 08 - 03:49 PM

Since 'sister wives' is not a legal form of marriage in Texas, if the girl is under the legal age of consent (17 in Texas in most cases), statuatory rape charges may be brought. The law is complicated by 'parental consent' and court judgement.

The 3rd Circuit Court Judge Walther accepted the allegations of the CPS as reason to issue her order, but not one of those allegations has been submitted to criminal courts. Now that the Appellate Court has asked Judge Walther to vacate her ruling, and both sides have filed briefs with the Texas Supreme Court, the decision is in their hands. If they rule that the Appellate Court is correct, all allegations made to the 3rd Circuit Court are null and evidence must be brought forward in other actions.

If the Supreme Court rules that Judge Walther acted correctly, then a large number of actions will result. If CPS has legitimate evidence of criminal action or intent, then they will charge in separate actions. At the same time many cases involving the children's return will be heard.

It will be some time before any of the allegations, if acted on by the state, will be decided in court.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 24 May 08 - 04:09 PM

You are focused on possible future criminal indictments, and I am focused on administrative law.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 May 08 - 08:13 PM

Administrative law?

In Texas, more than 1000 attorneys practice administrative law, representing clients before state and federal agencies, boards, etc., or employed by these agancies. They also represent their clients in judicial proceedings.
I suggest you look at the Administrative Law Handbook (Texas).
http://www.oag.state.tx.us/AG_Publications/txts/adminlaw2000.htm

I have no idea what you mean. Until a criminal indictment is acted on in the courts and a decision made, there is no proof of crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 24 May 08 - 09:17 PM

Administrative law is concerned with what government aganecies must, can, or must not do. If you think they've abused their authority, incluuding by violating your Constitutional rights, you can have judicial review of their actions or inaction, which is what the current proceedings are about. Here, what the agency can do is impacted by whether the kids may be exposed to harm, including crime. Evidence of past or ongoing crime is relevant, but not central to the proceedings. Punishmnet for past crimes will be a separate matter altogether, involving a host of other lawyers.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 May 08 - 09:26 PM

Sorry, but I will withhold judgement until there is a conviction in a criminal court.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 24 May 08 - 09:42 PM

That's a luxury we have, but the child protection agencies don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 28 May 08 - 10:19 PM

I'll tell you, I think the CPS argument that special circumstances justify treating the compound as a "household," is a good one, even though they lost on it. (This doesn't necessarily mean all children get ripped away - That's where the appellate court improperly failed to provide the guidance.)

"In the custody hearing for their newborn son, the new mother couldn't remember who lives in her house on the ranch." http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9404992 (05/28/2008)

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 29 May 08 - 03:26 PM

It is my understanding that there was, in fact, an underage girl from Canada apprehended during the raid. Her parents (in Canada) claim she was there visiting her grandmother. She will probably be returned to Canada as a result of the recent court ruling. Hopefully she didn't get married while she was in Texas (spritually or legally) and, hopefully, she is not pregnant.

As to the legality of what CPS did, I think that they were perfectly entitled to investigate the matter. Whether or not they should have apprehended the children is another matter but I do think that in order to thoroughly investigate, they had to do it. Even then, they were hampered by vague and unreliable statements by the women and children.

I hope CPS doesn't give up. I hope they are given legal advice that will help them prosecute those responsible for mental/emotional abuse of women and children. Unfortunately, the law does not like to dabble morally or ethically.

I still think that the education of the children should be looked at very closely. I also think that single moms (spritual wives) that receive govt. money for the care of their children, should not have that money administered by a spiritual husband or a prophet or a trust. The way it is, 'spiritual wives' who become pregnant are no more than 'cash cows' for pedophiles. Any religion that allows women and children to be treated as 'property' has to be questioned when it is the government who is funding their abuse.

I still think the best way for it all to end is to stop govt. funding of their 'school' and their 'spiritual wives'. There should also be an investigation of the role of local law enforcement and politicians in the surrounding community. Any FLDS member in a position of authority should be scrutinized. It is obvious to me that there is a 'conflict of interest' that allows this cult to thrive.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 May 08 - 03:33 PM

Both sides have filed arguments with the Texas Supreme Court. No decisions from them as of Thursday.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:23 PM

The Texas Supreme Court ruled that the children must be returned to their parents.
The Court did indicate that Judge Walther had the right to order sect parents not to remove their children "beyond a geographical area identified by the Court."
The decision was 6-3.
Justice O'Neill wrote that Walther was right to award the custodt of teenage girls to the State, but should have given the rest of the children back to their parents.

It is now up to CPS to bring forth specific charges for criminal action, if they have sufficient evidence. At this point, no specific, individual charges have been laid.

www.gosanangelo.com

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 29 May 08 - 07:06 PM

This is not bad. The Supreme Court said under the limited question before us, we won't reverse the Court of Appeal. But it pointed out the ongoing jurisdiction and importance of the proceedings, while providing some guidance under how to proceed in a less earth-scorching fashion. (Q you made up from whole cloth that part about bringing forth specific charges for criminal action - I am giving up on you.)
----
The Department petitioned this Court for review by mandamus. Having carefully examined the testimony at the adversary hearing and the other evidence before us, we are not inclined to disturb the court of appeals' decision. On the record before us, removal of the children was not warranted.

The Department argues without explanation that the court of appeals' decision leaves the Department unable to protect the children's safety, but the Family Code gives the district court broad authority to protect children short of separating them from their parents and placing them in foster care. The court may make and modify temporary orders "for the safety and welfare of the child",4 including an order "restraining a party from removing the child beyond a geographical area identified by the court".5 The court may also order the removal of an alleged perpetrator from the child's home6 and may issue orders to assist the Department in its investigation.7 The Code prohibits interference with an investigation,8 and a person who relocates a residence or conceals a child with the intent to interfere with an investigation commits an offense.9

While the district court must vacate the current temporary custody orders as directed by the court of appeals, it need not do so without granting other appropriate relief to protect the children, as the mothers involved in this proceeding concede in response to the Department's motion for emergency relief. The court of appeals' decision does not conclude the SAPCR proceedings. Although the SAPCRs involve important, fundamental issues concerning parental rights and the State's interest in protecting children, it is premature for us to address those issues. The Department's petition for mandamus is denied.
------

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 29 May 08 - 07:55 PM

"More than 100 children have still not been matched with mothers."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7426814.stm (5/29/08)

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 May 08 - 08:50 PM

I stand by what I posted.
To finish the BBC Quote given by heric, next paragraph:
"Some of the parents have said they do not know where their children have been placed, while others have complained that their sons and daughters are living at different locations, forcing them to criss-cross Texas to see them."
Note: San Angelo to Corpus Christi, where some of the children were placed, is about 350 miles as the crow flies.

It seems the draconian action by the CPS was well-calculated to cause misery and confusion.
As I have stated more than once, it now behooves CPS to support their allegations. The Supreme Court is giving them that opportunity, so we shall see what comes forth.

The CPS statement, by Marleigh Meisner: "We are disappointed, but we understand and respect the court's decision and will take immediate steps to comply. We will continue to prepare for the prompt and orderly reunification of these children with their families. We also will work with the district court to insure the safety of the children, and that all of our actions conform with the decision of the Texas Supreme Court."
www.gosanangelo.com

The Texas Attorney General's office sent investigators to Arizona on Thursday to ontain DNA samples from ..Warren Jeffs. Officers of the Kingman Police Dept. confirmed that officers helped Texas investigators serve the search warrant on Mr. Jeffs, who is in jail in Kingman.
Dallas Morning News.com

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 29 May 08 - 09:16 PM

You didn't finish my quote. My quote was a standalone quote with no clarification or qualifications before or after it. I have no idea what the details are - but I looked for them and they are not in your different quote.

"More than 100 children have still not been matched with mothers."

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 May 08 - 09:43 PM

heric, I found that stand alone statement in a BBC article from May 24th HERE, if that's of any help.:-)

dianavan, me, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 29 May 08 - 10:30 PM

It's bizarre, kat. I can make no sense of it. If it's true (and it must be because it's from the BBC), then I can not imagine how it would not have been placed before all three courts. If it was placed before any of them, I cannot imagine how they could let it go by without mention. It points to an extraordinary situation.

(Those 100 wouldn't be part of the these appeal proceedings by mothers who wanted their specific kids back, but it is now clear that other kids' situations were being described as partial justification for the removal.)

(Then combine that with mothers testifying under oath (probably at diferent hearings) that they "can't recall" who lived in their homes with their children.)

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 29 May 08 - 11:10 PM

They must mean independently verified matches, upon proof to their satisfaction, beyond the parent(s)' assertions.

(I did come across the Globe & Mail story about the BC girl down there, and the family's not credible explanation about a (non-existent) Texas grandma.)

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 May 08 - 06:25 PM

The Court in San Angelo today-
"A draft agreement released by Texas Child Protective Services attorney Gary Banks says the parents can get their children back after showing identification and pledging to take parenting classes and remain in Texas."
"The agreement was reached with the roughly 40 members of the roughly 125 children who, through attorneys, filed the complaint that prompted the Texas Supreme Court to rule Thursday that the state overstepped its authorith in taking more than 400 sect children."
www.gosanangelo.com, May 30, 2008.

My quote from the BBC came from succeeding lines in the article linked by heric.
See the text in the article, under the part headed "Confusion."
Following the "stand-alone" quote given by heric, the next paragraph is the material I quoted. heric gave the one line 3rd paragraph. My quote is the 4th paragraph in that section. (Dated 29May, 2008, 23:46 UK)

Court win for Texas sect parents

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 May 08 - 06:30 PM

Hmmm- herics link worked for me-
Court

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 May 08 - 06:34 PM

Ok, link now corrected.

Undoubtedly there will be further challenges and responses to the draft agreement reached today.
The order for the DNA tests still stands, and results will be some weeks yet in coming. Whether release will be held up for the results...?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Emma B
Date: 30 May 08 - 06:42 PM

photos of the 'prophet' and his 'bride' taken from the Texas ranch

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 30 May 08 - 07:35 PM

I saw those bride pictures without the blurring, somewhere else. I think it was snopes. (Maybe they've blurred it since then - they should. But she looks just as young as she is short.) An adjacent exhibit also there was another set with a different youngster.

I know what you mean - it's hard to come up with words on first viewing.

One of the interesting issues to resolve harkens back to dianavan's comment - that these girls have virtually no religious "freedom." On the opposite side: the heart of religious freedom includes imparting your mores and beliefs to your children.

To the agencies I say: Never give up. The Supreme Court has said this is important.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 31 May 08 - 12:55 AM

I remember my dad saying that every parent has the right to raise their child in the best way they see fit. I think, heric, that may be very, old school. Gone are the days when you could physically beat a child that was 'bad' or restrict them from going to school.

In my opinion, you may raise your children in the religion of your choice unless...

the religious beliefs conflict with the law.

Religious freedom is a parent's choice but when your education is severely limited, there is no ability to make educated choices about anything. This is especially true when you 'marry' at a young age and become bound to your children. These women are enslaved by a belief system that teaches them to fear the outside world. They really have no choice at all, even after they become adults.

This is a very dangerous sect and I think its important to clearly define limits to religious freedom. When push comes to shove, the law must prevail. I sound like a real law and order goon. I must be getting old.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 31 May 08 - 11:24 AM

News update, the judge will not sign the order for the parents to pick up their children until the mothers in the case sign the order first. Seems to me the DNA results should match up the children and parents before they can take the children back, considering there was so much deception regarding parentage.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 31 May 08 - 12:14 PM

Here is the CNN May 28 news report on the Jeffs wedding photos and discussion about how the brides feel they are marrying the prophet of god and will be a goddess.
This video includes a discussion regarding which kids are at risk, how many children are at risk, what kind of risk, is it imminent risk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70vavVj06Us

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 May 08 - 02:25 PM

The New York Times calls it chaos as judge walks out.

A more balanced report in the San Angelo paper:
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/31/sect-kids-return-delayed/

Politics could make the proceedings a mess. Justices of the Texas courts of appeals are elected and serve six-year terms.
Appellate judges appointed to fill vacancies must face the voters at the next election.
Three members of the Texas Supreme court face 2008 election challenges.

Judge Barbara Walther is an elected judge (51st. District), four year term. I don't know when her term is up and she faces the voters again.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: goatfell
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 11:52 AM

they chose that way of life so let them be, they will in time answer to God for the their time here on earth.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 12:16 PM

All hell broke loose in the trial court Friday afternoon:

"Finally, after several hours of discussion, one group of lawyers representing families said that the court lacked authority to impose any restrictions and that Judge Walther's only choice was simply to vacate her April order granting custody to the state.

Judge Walther then read parts of the Supreme Court's decision that she said did give her authority to place restrictions to provide for the safety of the children. The impasse could not be resolved, and she left the courtroom shortly afterward."

The lawyers weren't even sure the hearing had concluded. Parents are probably filing in the appellate court tomorrow.

NYT

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 12:28 PM

Poor Judge Walther must feel as if she has the weight of the entire State of Texas on her shoulders. Demerit point, though, for reaching an "impasse" with a pack of lawyers, if that's true. Hopefully, however, she entered a clear ruling for analysis, rather than having the appellate court stuck reviewing that she "just didn't do it" after an "impasse."

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 12:43 PM

The idea being portrayed in some news accounts that this case is over and the FLDS group will be left alone should be set aside because allegations and evidence of forced underage marriages and impregnated minors don't just disappear

No doubt some children will eventually be sent back to their parents, but it will be interesting to see which of them do not and on what grounds.

From The Wall St Journal May 30th

'Authorities said they feared that the polygamist families, once reunited, would flee out of state and resume practices that officials consider abusive, such as yoking young girls to older men in marriage.

The Supreme Court acknowledged those concerns. But the majority of justices ruled that the state could take other measures, short of separating families, to protect the children from sexual abuse.

For instance, the district judge handling the case could order the families reunited on condition that they promise to remain in Texas. Or she could insist that men identified as possible perpetrators of abuse move out of the home.

The judge could also grant the state custody of the children deemed most at risk, specifically pregnant girls or teenagers who have hit puberty and are considered ready for marriage in the culture of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

"Basically, it's back to square one," said Jack Sampson, a family law professor at the University of Texas.

He said he expected that all young children and boys would be returned to their families within days, but some older girls might remain in state custody pending individual review of their circumstances and the risk that they will be abused.

"The return of all the children is certainly not mandated," he said.'

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 01:22 PM

Its not over, yet. The following conditions seem reasonable, under the circumstances.

"An agreement was being discussed in court Friday afternoon before Judge Barbara Walther. Under a draft of a court order released to the public during the session, the children would be returned starting Monday.

The draft applies to 330 children. It was not immediately known how the state would handle returning another 110 children.

Attorneys for the state and the FLDS families are discussing conditions:

Allowing unanounced home visits by Child Protective Services .

"Giving CPS the child's address and a list of people living in the home within 72 hours after reclaiming the child.

Agreeing not to remove the child from the state of Texas.

Completing parenting classes and furnishing proof of completion.

Parents picking up their children would be required to have their photo and the child's photo taken and to sign a release acknowledging they agree to the conditions."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/30/texas.polygamists/?iref=hpmostpop

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 01:34 PM

The Supreme Court order was unambiguous that conditions and restrictions could be imposed BEFORE the children are returned:

"While the district court must vacate the current temporary custody orders as directed by the court of appeals, it need not do so without granting other appropriate relief to protect the children, as the mothers involved in this proceeding concede in response to the Department's motion for emergency relief."

The parents' lawyers arguments are being inaccurately reported (surprise!) or else they are just blowing smoke, making bad faith arguments, and contradicting what they had already conceded.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 02:02 PM

Or she could insist that men identified as possible perpetrators of abuse move out of the home.

In sexual abuse cases I have known of or read about, this was the most common action...making the accused move out away from the alleged victims until the courts deemed otherwise. I am not sure how well that would work in such a closed society as FLDS, though, without some major changes in local law enforcement, mothers being given autonomy from the offending male authorities, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:37 PM

General information-
The 51st District attorney general is Stephen R. Lupton, up for re-election in 2008.
Attorney Allison Palmer would be in charge of any criminal prosecutions arising from any charges arising from the FLDS action; she has stated that she likely will need help from the State Attorney General's office if any charges are filed from the FLDS action.

Digression-
Eldorado is the county seat of Schleicher County, 1300 sq. mi, and only 2800 people, 48% Hispanic. (dunno if the FLDS ranch population is included). The 51st District also includes Tom Green County and the city of San Angelo, which is the seat of the court led by Judge Barbara Walther.
San Angelo is the seat of Tom Green County, county pop. 103,000, 1522 sq. mi., about 33% Hispanic.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:53 PM

Here we go: As usual, the best reporting on this comes from the Salt Lake Tribune. http://origin.sltrib.com/news/ci_9428706

It seems that the Judge imposed restrictions beyond what had been negotiated between the agencies and the parents. That could be objectionable on several grounds, depending on Texas law. In California she would certainly have the right to come up with her own, additional requirements. It's probably the same in Texas. The legal aid lawyers may accept that authority, but still claim that the nature of the restrictions was beyond her authority - e.g. causing ambiguity and delay that would frustrate the higher courts' intentions to get the reunions accomplished. Perhaps her requirement that the agencies have unrestricted access to the compound 24/7 would involve too many people that were not part of the appeal proceedings, so that it is not in these mothers' capacity to promise compliance.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:37 PM

This could be in limbo for some time, but it is likely that the Texas Supreme Court would be asked to set the limits on Walther's jurisdiction if agreement cannot be reached. The Court could also impose time limits.

I found it amusing that the San Angelo paper has suspended printing comments. Some were getting too hot. Reminds me of Joe trying to police some of the below-the-belt threads here at Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 06:16 PM

Oh my you should read the comments at the Salt Lake Tribune under that last story. They're Talkin' 'Bout a Revolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 08:51 PM

No. Never read comments except those that support my views.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 04:25 PM

Earlier in this thread we discussed how it was possible for the FLDS to flourish. I suggested that laws (other than bigamy) are being broken. It seems that an investigation is already in the works. Among other things, these folks are stinky polluters. They also seem to think that they can run a cement factory without a permit.

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700231012,00.html?pg=1

I think Winston Blackmore is poised to become the next prophet.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 04:40 PM

Wow - Wally Oppal (attorney general) really wants to get the FLDS in Bountiful, BC. He has appointed another (the third) special prosecutor in hopes of being able to make charges stick. This is an interesting read and helps us to understand why its so difficult to prosecute. I respect Oppal in as much as he is doing his homework and if he can, he will lay charges and do what he can to prevent unnecessary trauma to the women and children. I hope it works because if it doesn't we will be facing a huge social problem with Muslim immigrants who will soon be arriving in droves from Africa and the Middle East.

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=d74cc0b1-7e59-4bed-8d28-86ef3b336706

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 08:24 PM

FLDS now has declared they will change their marriage policy. At least one good thing has come from this.

SAN ANGELO, Texas (CNN) -- A polygamist sect under fire over allegations of underage marriage will now allow women to wed only when they are old enough to give consent under state law, a spokesman said Monday.The legal age in Texas to marry without parental consent is 18.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 09:47 PM

Apparently some negotiation is still going on about return of the children.
Apart from that, "Three of the children who were staying at a local shelter (Corpus Christi) after being removed from the YFZ ranch left the shelter with their parents shortly after 1 p.m. today, but it is unclear how many other children remain in the shelter and when they might leave."
From an article in the San Angelo Standard Times, June 2. www.gosanangelo.com

The newspaper also carries the order "Vacating Temporary Managing Conservatorship and additional Temporary Orders," and the full text of Walther's "Additional Temporary Orders."
The validity of her temporary orders remains in question.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 09:54 PM

The FLDS will not permit or recognize any spiritual unions until the minor is old enough to consent in (his or) her individual capacity? I wish he had said THAT. My bullshit-meter is shorting out and smoking.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 10:11 PM

Yeh, my bullshit meter is spinning in circles. There's a bit in the FLDS statement about not allowing underage marriages in their jusrisdiction. Does that mean they'll ship the girls to Bountiful B.C.?

I'm also very concerned about this:

"...attorney ad litem Natalie E. Malonis is asking the judge to stay the new order in connection with her client, an underage girl, saying it places her at risk from a possible "perpetrator."
    In court on Friday, Malonis said she was investigating whether her client may have given birth to a child who is being claimed by another woman. Under questioning by Walther, Malonis said she did not know who that woman may be or where the child was staying.
    The new filing said Malonis had reached an agreement with attorneys for CPS and for her client's mother, who agreed the girl would stay in state custody for another 30 days. Walther's order does reflect that agreement, Malonis objected."

http://www.sltrib.com/contents/ci_9454066

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 10:49 PM

I don't believe them. They will say that to get the children back, then they will find a way to still have their child brides. Their whole society is based on fear and secrecy. Leopard can't change his spots no matter what he agrees to.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:36 PM

So, the kids are back, but do we know who's who's child?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:07 PM

Mrrzy- dunno. Have to wait for the DNA tests to be published. Until then, its eeny miny-
The tests are in, but not all parents tested.
See "DNA Info in as Reunions Begin."
http://www.gosanangelo.com

I am not linking that article directly, as there are others of interest, all clearly linked at the newspaper's website. June 3, 2008.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: frogprince
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 07:22 PM

"The legal age in Texas to marry without parental consent is 18."
What is the legal age to marry with parental consent? As I read the agreement, there is nothing there to stop them from discretely coercing girls into marriage at that age.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 07:29 PM

17 or judge's decision. Go far up the thread; details linked there.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 04:25 PM

BC is still trying to prosecute the polygamists at Bountiful but the new special prosecutor is taking a slightly approach.

"If we proceed [to laying criminal charges], the bulk of evidence would be how polygamy affects people in society in general, not simply the way it is practised in Bountiful."

The prosecution would be required to call witnesses to satisfy the court "that in fact the degree of harm, social harm resulting from polygamy per se - not just in Bountiful - is such that criminalizing it is justifiable in a free and democratic society. That is the main argument, as I see it," Mr. Robertson said.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080616.BCPOLYGAMY16/TPStory/National

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: heric
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:11 PM

I don't understand what he is trying to say, from reading that article. Does he mean the theoretical effects on society if these people weren't largely isolated from society? (Are we supposed to ask what if people started doing this in the city?) I'm sure Robertson knows what he means, but it is not transferred into print. He can't mean the rights of one little abused and isolated girl can be trampled by freedom of religion under the Constitution. (Maybe I'm just not focusing but I think that journalist needs to go back to school. The polygamy and the underage issues seems to be all scrambled up, for another problem.)

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:23 PM

Yes, heric - the issue should be child abuse, rather than polygamy...

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 01:58 AM

Yes, I agree. Child abuse and fraud would be the best way to prosecute the crimes by the FLDS and their associates. It seems that the focus on polygamy will never pass the freedom of religion test. However, if FLDS men can have more than one wife, so can other men of other religions and cultures.

I think the special prosecutor is trying to bring the question of polygamy before the courts but I doubt if he will get very far. He's trying to please Wally Oppal (attorney general) who really wants to 'get' Winston Blackmore but knows it won't hold up in court. He's already been told by two previously appointed special prosecutors to forget it because it contravenes rights and freedoms.

I'm with Wally on this one. I want to see Winston Blackmore and his cohorts tried as criminals for not only physical damage and theft but for all of the emotional damage they have inflicted on others. I

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 02:43 PM

Two items of interest in the San Angelo newspaper today.

1. CPS Actions Damaged Children. Johana Scot, Parent Guidance Center, Austin Texas. A rather damning indictment of foster care in Texas.
2. Jeffs' Daughter Says She Doesn't Need Protection. Jennifer Dobner, Associated Press. She will seek to argue for a different attorney when the Grand Jury convenes in Schleicher County next week.

The Grand Jury proceedings are secret, and will not be made public or reported in the press. It may be some time before any indictments are handed down, if any. No cross-examination or opposing testimony is allowed in these proceedings.

June 23, 2008. www.gosanangelo.com
Click on links under the heading, More Headlines.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 01:49 AM

It doesn't matter how badly abused a child may be, they always prefer to be with their parents. Its hard to say, however, if the trauma of placing a child in foster care is due to the quality of foster care or the trauma of separation or the trauma of prior abuse. Its all takes its toll and that is why separating a child from a parent is usually a last resort.

The article cited by Q was particulary damning but also a bit arrogant if not deceitful. I especially question that, "...they were separated long enough to traumatize some children for life, particularly the youngest, who perceive time as passing far more slowly than do adults."

What??? Young children have absolutely no concept of time, let alone if it goes fast or slow. It isn't until about grade 2 that they begin to estimate the passage of time with any accuracy at all.

That article was sensationalism at its best.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 02:35 PM

Yes, like most newspaper byline articles, the writer may know something about a part of the problem, but not the whole.
Foster care in Texas has a bad reputation, and she covered that, but I agree that she added some questionable interpretations that went beyond that situation.

I read another article, but I have lost the source. When the children were ordered returned, some had been exposed in the foster homes to TV and a number other things that are forbidden in their home environment- possibly even to classic Coca-Cola (contains caffeine, stimulants are forbidden to Mormons). The writer facetiously wondered if the kids so exposed would throw a tantrum when they were returned home because they would be denied these things?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 04:57 PM

In an interesting twist, the mothers have turned entrepreneurial and are now selling their fashions online. One other article I read on this also said authorities are looking at possible criminal charges.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 05:13 PM

Charges of polygamy will not fly. In order to 'comply' with the anti-polygamy laws Mormons switched to having only one legal, i.e. married partner per man. So far, in this country, law does not concern itself with how many sexual partners consenting adults may have.

And, it appears, a significant number of Mormon men opt to have only one partner. I don't see how law can successfully proscecute anyone on the basis of multiple unions.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 08:43 PM

13 million profess the Mormon faith. 5.5 million of them are in the United States. The religion is strong in the South Pacific, Latin America. Utah is 72% Mormon.

"Significant number" monogamous? Probably around 98+ percent.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 02:08 PM

http://www.gosanangelo.com, July 24, 2008

More FLDS Indictments Likely.

Jeffs, already in prison in AZ, was indicted for sexual assault of a child by the Schleicher Grand Jury. Five others were indicted on a mix of sexual assault, bigamy and failure to report sexual abuse charges (8 charges in all). Indictments remain sealed until suspects are taken into custody.
The Grand Jury meets again next month.

Texas Ranger Captain L. C. Wilson said "the investigation is by no means over. There are certainly other persons of interest and other suspects in the case." He has five Rangers assigned to the case, and more may be made available.
Most Texas Rangers have law degrees, and assist in the higher levels of investigation.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 05:36 PM

Another good article updating the news on this subject is by TIME magazine:
Turning Up the Heat on Polygamists
"..And this week, after going through evidence taken from the Yearning for Zion Ranch, Abbott indicted Warren Jeffs — the "Prophet" of the polygamists — along with four of his followers on charges of first-degree felony sexual assault of a minor..."

"...Sam Brower, a Utah-based private detective who deals with FLDS issues, compares the sect's structure to feudal Europe, when daughters served as pawns in alliances. "If your father-in-law is prominent, this helps with business dealings — maybe you have another wife and then you have daughters that you can place with other church members,"

CLICK HERE FOR ARTICLE AT TIME.COM

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:12 PM

I see Texas officials want to take back some of the kids because their mothers are not keeping them apart from certain men: Click.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:35 PM

Hearing on the eight children has been recessed to allow attorneys opportunities to negotiate settlements.

Recess

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:38 PM

A strangely sad little story from local news radio San Antonio.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 07:43 PM

Thanks for the links, Q and Emma.

Emma, those kids must've been the younger ones. I remember Carolyn Jessup saying they had dogs at one point, then Jessup decreed they had to get rid of all of them and they were either killed or given away. (The bastard!)Then dogs were not longer allowed in the compound. It is a sad and horrendous thing, either way.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 07:42 AM

Now they're raiding an evangelical church in Arkansas. This kind of behavior seems to be a byproduct of religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Alice
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 09:51 AM

There is news now on the Bountiful group in Canada, and arrests of Winston Blackmore, 52, and James Oler, 44.

" Many of the "brides" in the Canadian sect are 15 and 16-year-old girls from the United States, Shields said.

The legal age of consent in Canada is 16, though it rises to 18 in cases where the other person -- such as Oler or Blackmore -- is an authority figure, Shields said."

Article here: Alleged polygamists arrested in Canada

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:22 PM

Didn't know they had Latter Day Ain'ts in Canada. Just goes to show how fast they multiply.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: PoppaGator
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:30 PM

Significant numbers of "fundamentalist" Mormons ~ polygamists in defiance of the LDS officialdom in Salt Lake City ~ are found well north of Utah, up in Idaho along with all kinds of white supremecists, militiamen, skinheads, survivalists, neoNazis, etc.

The Blue Canadadian Rockies are only a hop skip and jump away from there.

(No offence to any Mudcatters in the Gem State. Are there more than one?)

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: open mike
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 03:44 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YFZ_Ranch
here is the wikipedia entry for YFZ

I just heard an interview with the
creators of the HBO series http://www.hbo.com/biglove/
which features a polygamist "family" , a man with 3 wives,
who live in 3 seperate houses. the show is beginning
its third season.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Love

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 10:01 AM

I wonder if, once the gay marriage thing is finally settled, if the polygamists will be next?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:57 AM

I didn't read all of the thread, as it is quite hefty. But gotta say I'm stunned that there is institutional brainwashing, forced marriage, and sexual slavery involving immature girls within some supposed Christian groups in the US. So Margret Atwoods Handmaids Tale isn't a fantasy story set in some dystopian future after all. It's happening right now.

Couldn't give a flying fuck about *Polygamy* between genuinely consenting adults btw. Free love communes, hippies living alternative lifestyles, unconventional relationships between grown people. Because that appears to have thrown some of the key issues of this thread off.

But the *institutional sexual slavery of minors* is really rather terrifying. Thanks for this most depressing thread...

Subject: RE: BS: Texas Polygamist Colony Raid
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 10:04 PM

Raymond Jessup has been found guilty of sexual assault. Click Here.